Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Lon and Cheryl on May 26, 2013, 05:27:22 pm
Title: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on May 26, 2013, 05:27:22 pm
I ordered a new Racor S3230P and the Winn plastic housing and filter for the water separator. I went out to install the new conversion unit and was stunned to see that the unit that is in place has been bypassed. The fuel hoses have been connected and nothing passes through the water separator and filter. The electric wires are still connected.
Before I disconnect the bypass and run the fuel through the filters I thought I would check in here and see if anybody might have a good reason why I should bypass the Raycor filter. It looks like its been bypassed for a long time. I know the Winn plastic housing and filter are getting hard to find. I thought that might have been the reason, but I think this was done at least 3-4 years ago and the Winn parts might have been easier to find back then.
Would putting a fuel shut-off valve in the fuel line at this point be a good idea? I get drenched when I replace the fuel filter on the engine, and thought if I have the fuel lines apart it might be a good idea to add the valve.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 27, 2013, 11:03:15 am
Can't think of an reason other than what you came up with. Yours may be connected differently but our U300 uses the Racor as the primary filter. Without that filter, all the filtering would have to be done with the secondary filter and any water could not be seen. Usually the primary and secondary filters have different micron ratings also. The reason I say this is that Racor makes several elements with different micron ratings that even fit in the same housing. Make sure you have the right one for your application.
Suggest you remove the fuel tank cap before trying to change the filter in the future. In removing our cap, I get a pretty good puff of air and without any filter in place, the pressure will try and push lots of diesel out. I hate diesel on the hands so gloves are a must. Only 10% as bad as the smell of gasoline though.
Pierce
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: bbeane on May 27, 2013, 11:25:55 am
The only problem with additional valve(s) in the fuel lines are more connections to leak or suck air. Diesel fuel can eat seals in a lot of valves, if you decide to put valves in make sure they are approved for ultra low sulfur diesel
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 27, 2013, 12:04:45 pm
Nither the 300200 or the P3230P are difficult to locate and the are very available, but you need to check where they are, Wally world etc is not a good start. If nothing else, Google "Racor suppliers ". We have great luck with Central Diesel in Richmond, Va.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: JohnFitz on May 27, 2013, 12:12:12 pm
Before I disconnect the bypass and run the fuel through the filters I thought I would check in here and see if anybody might have a good reason why I should bypass the Raycor filter.
Electric wires? on the fuel filter? Then this must be the OEM auto air purge system? If so then I have some second hand information that might explain why it is bypassed. A buddy who has the identical coach to yours ('95 320C) was visiting me 2 years ago. He visited the local Cummins dealer here to inquire about an issue he was having (I believe it was excessive cranking after being parked for over a week). He spoke with a knowledgeable old timer there who asked what the application was...high end coach?(yes)...mid 1990s? (yes) and also asked if had an auto air purge (not sure of brand or proper name)? (yes) He then said he was 99% sure the auto purge system was the problem. Said they were great when they are new but after many years they develop small leaks with all the O-rings and seals inside. He suggest getting rid of it and put in a standard filter setup. So my buddy removed it along with the wire harness and control box (located behind the rear engine access door, about 2" x 4" with mini switches and lights on the front, I understand many people don't ever notice it) and installed a standard filter housing (about $40 ??) and sure enough it fixed the problem. So I would guess the PO was parked somewhere for a while, couldn't start it, bypassed the filter and forgot about it. I imagine a determined person could find the leak in the auto purge unit and continue to use it but that's the story and I hope it helps.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 27, 2013, 12:21:11 pm
Correct, many of these systems have been changed to eliminate the Winn/Racor setup by folks who either have no clue or interest in fixing the normal leaking on old units. The simple replacement of the 300200 solves the normal leak issue. But do the warm fuzzy thing.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: jeff on May 27, 2013, 01:51:09 pm
" simple replacement of the 300200"
This is what we did 20,000 miles ago.. It is my understanding (?) Cummins did away with that type of filter after a few years.. Anyone have this filter on an 04-05-06? I will do a little research and re post later.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Carol Savournin on May 27, 2013, 02:29:37 pm
In our original set-up, that old Racor / Winn 200 200 had the connection to the electric air purge thingy and the clear glass-type filter. It also contained an electric driven fuel assist pump. The pump was still working, but the little black box that supplied the power to the pump went bad. We began to experience situations where we were "fuel-starved" when the engine called for extra power ... such as climbing hills in the mountains. After much head scratching and changing of filters, fuel treatments and the like, we landed in Santa Fe at Hal Burns Truck & Diesel repair. The mechanic went over every electrical connection on the coach, crawled over everything and finally measured the vacuum pressure on the fuel lines. There was a clear problem. He disassembled the Racor filter unit and determined that while the assist pump did work, it was not getting any juice. In his magic book of Cummins information he discovered that that set-up was no longer being used, and that the solution was to remove the whole shebang, replace it with a very simple armature and a good ol' standard water separating filter. Bingo. Problem solved and 2 years later we have not had a single problem. the unit also acts as something of a "fuel heater", and as the mechanic told us,"Unless you are an Ice Road Trucker you do not need this." I am not surprised that yours has been bypassed and suspect that there were problems in the past.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on May 27, 2013, 06:46:39 pm
In our original set-up, that old Racor / Winn 200 200 had the connection to the electric air purge thingy and the clear glass-type filter. It also contained an electric driven fuel assist pump. The pump was still working, but the little black box that supplied the power to the pump went bad. We began to experience situations where we were "fuel-starved" when the engine called for extra power
My question: Did this "electric driven fuel assist pump" run while your coach was driving, particularly when climbing hills? If you had a Winn system which was the same as the one that I had, it only would run when the purge button was pressed to purge air out of the fuel. Unless your rig has an electric fuel assist pump that my rig does not, I believe that the fuel starvation you were experiencing was caused by air in the fuel rather than a non-working purge pump.
The Winn fuel/water seperator, pre-screen, primary filter, air purge pump can be replaced by the Parker/Racor fuel filter/water separator, purge pump system model 790R30.
I bought an 790R30 from Monaco left over stock via eBay about two years ago for $250.
The old Winn system has a see through container with a stainless mesh screen. This container is made of plastic and is 1.5 inch diameter by about 3 inches long with a half inch diameter inlet on the top and half inch diameter outlet on the bottom. The plastic inlet and outlet slide into "O" rings which are contained in the cast aluminum housing. The air leak with this system occurs when the inlet and outlet plastic gets squeezed to a smaller outside diameter than original, such that air is sucked by the "O" rings. I fixed this problem by inserting one inch long pieces of copper tubing into the inlet and outlet so that the original outer diameter was re-established. The used "O" rings now formed a perfect seal. I then discovered that the purge pump was seized, so replaced the Winn unit with a Racor 790R30. The Racor has a manual purge pump control (pump runs only when button is pushed). The Winn system had a timer which ran the purge pump for about 30 seconds whenever the button was pressed.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Carol Savournin on May 27, 2013, 07:02:12 pm
My question: Did this "electric driven fuel assist pump" run while your coach was driving, particularly when climbing hills? If you had a Winn system which was the same as the one that I had, it only would run when the purge button was pressed to purge air out of the fuel. Unless your rig has an electric fuel assist pump that my rig does not, I believe that the fuel starvation you were experiencing was caused by air in the fuel rather than a non-working purge pump.
The fuel starvation ceased immediately when we got rid of the offending parts and replaced them with the simpler unit. Bear in mind that this was on an '02 with a 450 Cummins ISM. When the service tech removed the assist pump and put power to it directly, it ran like crazy ... but the little black box with the buttons was bad. In the Cummins service manual & bulletins there was a specific remedy for this exact issue. That is what he did and that is what solved our problem.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on May 28, 2013, 03:15:59 am
I will check for the power to the unit. The Winn runs for quite awhile when the ignition key is turned. This is without powering it from the engine bay. This could be because the filter and separator are not connected to the fuel line?
I have the new filters, Winn and the Racor conversion unit that replaces the original Racor setup at the filter. I will try and get it to work,but I will not spend too much time on it before I go with the simpler might be better approach.
If I get rid of the Winn priming pump how hard is it to start the Cummins if it were out of fuel or I changed the fuel filter?
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Caflashbob on May 28, 2013, 11:21:12 am
We began to experience situations where we were "fuel-starved" when the engine called for extra power ... such as climbing hills in the mountains.
What were the exact symptoms? Mine seems to flatten out on power at top rpm. 50mph up 6% grades like cajon pass.
Don't know what to expect like the old days in the Rv biz when I drove multiples of the same coaches so I had a comparison. Not now.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: tltaylor on May 28, 2013, 01:44:59 pm
We had problems of losing vacuum due to leaking o-rings at the clear plastic bowl. I bought a new bowl which included new o-rings and installed it along with a new filter as well as the engine mounted filter. I had problems again (read into that, broke down on side of highway) so I took off the old Winn system and installed a Davco 382 primary filter system. It has a check valve on the inlet side and I do not lose prime when changing the filter. Also, you can see when the filter needs to be changed based upon the fuel level in the bowl. Fleetguard and Detroit Diesel put their names on the Davco fuel filter system and I am told this is what they are installing on the new trucks. Tracy
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on May 28, 2013, 01:46:16 pm
Mine seems to flatten out on power at top rpm. 50mph up 6% grades like cajon pass.
When I first bought my 96 U320, it held 48 mph up a 6% grade and I passed most other trucks and motorhomes which seem to be climbing very much slower than my U320. I believe 48 mph up a 6% grade is peak torque on the 400hp M11 and the Silverleaf seems to confirm that. Now, it does not seem to hold 48mph up 6% grades. This is not easy to determine due to other factors like wind and air temperature.
A friend who had a 97 U320 told me that after he had the engine fuel lines replaced, his 450hp M11 had much more power. The Cummins shop tested his fuel lines by connecting a fuel vacuum pump at the engine and the fuel arrived frothy due to air being sucked through pin holes in the fuel line. I am trying to determine how I can do the same test for my engine fuel lines.
I replaced the generator fuel lines three years ago due to leaks, and many others have done that also.
It seems that Foretravel used fuel lines during the nineties that only last 15 years.
Lon and Cheryl: I build a manual air purge for my leaking Winn filter when the purge pump did not work. I used an empty small pop bottle, drilled two holes in the cap, one for a hose with a schrader valve screw on female end and one for a hose to suck on. The schrader valve hose went to the bottom of the bottle while the suction hose stopped at the top. I connected the schrader end to the schrader valve on the Winn and sucked on the other hose until diesel appeared in the pop bottle.
When you change the secondary fuel filter which is mounted low on the engine, if your fuel tank is full and the front end of coach is high, diesel will siphon when the filter is removed. If you prefill the new filter, no purging will be needed. This may also work when changing the primary filter, which is mounted on the frame.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Caflashbob on May 28, 2013, 02:16:57 pm
A friend who had a 97 U320 told me that after he had the engine fuel lines replaced, his 450hp M11 had much more power. The Cummins shop tested his fuel lines by connecting a fuel vacuum pump at the engine and the fuel arrived frothy due to air being sucked through pin holes in the fuel line. I am trying to determine how I can do the same test for my engine fuel lines.
I replaced the generator fuel lines three years ago due to leaks, and many others have done that also.
It seems that Foretravel used fuel lines during the nineties that only last 15 years.
I had all the fuel lines replaced other than the aqua hot lines which are next
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on May 29, 2013, 05:03:15 am
In our original set-up, that old Racor / Winn 200 200 had the connection to the electric air purge thingy and the clear glass-type filter. It also contained an electric driven fuel assist pump. The pump was still working, but the little black box that supplied the power to the pump went bad. We began to experience situations where we were "fuel-starved" when the engine called for extra power ... such as climbing hills in the mountains. After much head scratching and changing of filters, fuel treatments and the like, we landed in Santa Fe at Hal Burns Truck & Diesel repair. The mechanic went over every electrical connection on the coach, crawled over everything and finally measured the vacuum pressure on the fuel lines. There was a clear problem. He disassembled the Racor filter unit and determined that while the assist pump did work, it was not getting any juice. In his magic book of Cummins information he discovered that that set-up was no longer being used, and that the solution was to remove the whole shebang, replace it with a very simple armature and a good ol' standard water separating filter. Bingo. Problem solved and 2 years later we have not had a single problem. the unit also acts as something of a "fuel heater", and as the mechanic told us,"Unless you are an Ice Road Trucker you do not need this." I am not surprised that yours has been bypassed and suspect that there were problems in the past.
Do you recall what kind filter/separator you had installed on your coach?
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: fredsmotorhome on May 31, 2013, 01:03:55 pm
The Davco 382 is an excellent choice for primary fuel filter. You can see when filter needs to be changed with no guess work. It also has a check valve so you will not lose prime when you change it. I use a 7 micron element and a normal caterpillar 2 micron on secondary filter. If you have a one filter system it is recomended to run a 2 micron element. Bill
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: cubesphere on April 18, 2016, 09:43:53 am
I have been upgrading my 95 320 and found, someone completely removed fuel water separator which is a great way to destroy a diesel engine, perfect. After reading this post, I installed a Davco 382 and it works really well, thank you!
Here is a picture as to where I put it, and yes, I can still get to the batteries!
rob
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on April 18, 2016, 09:58:38 am
Rob,
Hard to believe any prior owner would be that uninformed, but good that you discovered the "custom mod", and corrected it! ^.^d
You might take a careful look around your coach and see what else was changed/removed...
You have also discovered one of the GREAT benefits of this Forum: the wonderful archive of wisdom and creativity displayed by all the past and present members. You could not buy or find anything like this valuable resource anywhere else at ANY price!
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: wolfe10 on April 18, 2016, 10:06:59 am
Assume they only removed the OE PRIMARY fuel filter and left the secondary fuel filter in place.
Still, a stupid move-- perhaps understandable in an emergency, particularly if this was the Winn system that was known for air leaks.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: cubesphere on April 18, 2016, 12:19:40 pm
Hello Chuck and Brett,
Yes Chuck this forum is full of knowledge to be sure. Brett, they did leave the secondary filter on, however, it does need replaced which I will do when I get it in. I believe is was a Winn system and btw, your write up on the bulkhead is excellent, I will be posting pictures of my repair. The front were all to specs but, the back had 5 bolts broken mainly where the tires splash up water as you know. People that want their coaches to last really need to look at these issues to say the least.
rob
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: MichaelU295 on December 21, 2017, 02:36:55 pm
Hi Wyatt,
My Winn fuel system pump seized. I'm following your advice using pop bottle to prime the fuel after filter change. On the schrader valve side, what adapter do you use and where do you buy it? It needs to depress the center pin to open the valve.
Any chance that the integral pump can be repaired.
When I first bought my 96 U320, it held 48 mph up a 6% grade and I passed most other trucks and motorhomes which seem to be climbing very much slower than my U320. I believe 48 mph up a 6% grade is peak torque on the 400hp M11 and the Silverleaf seems to confirm that. Now, it does not seem to hold 48mph up 6% grades. This is not easy to determine due to other factors like wind and air temperature.
A friend who had a 97 U320 told me that after he had the engine fuel lines replaced, his 450hp M11 had much more power. The Cummins shop tested his fuel lines by connecting a fuel vacuum pump at the engine and the fuel arrived frothy due to air being sucked through pin holes in the fuel line. I am trying to determine how I can do the same test for my engine fuel lines.
I replaced the generator fuel lines three years ago due to leaks, and many others have done that also.
It seems that Foretravel used fuel lines during the nineties that only last 15 years.
Lon and Cheryl: I build a manual air purge for my leaking Winn filter when the purge pump did not work. I used an empty small pop bottle, drilled two holes in the cap, one for a hose with a schrader valve screw on female end and one for a hose to suck on. The schrader valve hose went to the bottom of the bottle while the suction hose stopped at the top. I connected the schrader end to the schrader valve on the Winn and sucked on the other hose until diesel appeared in the pop bottle.
When you change the secondary fuel filter which is mounted low on the engine, if your fuel tank is full and the front end of coach is high, diesel will siphon when the filter is removed. If you prefill the new filter, no purging will be needed. This may also work when changing the primary filter, which is mounted on the frame.
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Caflashbob on December 22, 2017, 12:46:36 am
Rebuilt the POS Winn three times, vacuum leaks. Trash
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: wolfe10 on December 22, 2017, 07:17:18 am
Rebuilt the POS Winn three times, vacuum leaks. Trash
That is why Racor has superseded it to one of a better design!
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: Caflashbob on December 22, 2017, 12:07:56 pm
Yes the replacement Racor is much better quality
Title: Re: Racor fuel and water seperator bypass
Post by: D.J. Osborn on December 22, 2017, 05:28:53 pm
I replaced the Winn Fuel System on our 1995 U320 with a Parker Racor 790R30 from Racor 790R30 INTEGRATED ASSEMBLY - 90 GPH (http://www.boatstore.com/racor-790r30-integrated-assembly-90-gph.html) and am well pleased. The old Winn Filter System seemed to work okay, but in colder weather (below perhaps 40 degrees F) allowed air into system and became unacceptable. I am thankful for the upgrade. The change did require fittings that were initially difficult to find, but we have a Parker store Triad Technologies (http://www.triadtechnologies.com/parkerstores.php) in our area and they had the fittings in stock.