I have seen the subject time and again but never studied it, and did a search for declamation... So I will ask...I have a couple areas toward the rear sides where I can push in the siding and it is obvious the adhesive.. if thats how the sides are put on, has turned loose... Of course moving the coach it may lay flat... How is that repaired in a couple small, 2 ft areas?
And the search gave me no results.
DUB
I sent you a PM
JD
Declamation? Did you mean to search for delamination? or simply search on delam
When we had a delam, we went to extreme paint in Nac and had it repaired. Rance fixed it very good
Man did I ever make a mess of spelling.. my bad Michelle... Thanks JD.. checking message.
It may be tomorrow but I will give you a call JD.. and thanks.
The right way to fix it is to grind off the delaminated section back to where it is solidly bonded, re-apply new resin and fiberglass, smooth and fill until dead level with no pin holes or craters, prime, repaint or gel coat. This is not a procedure for a non-experienced person. Find a very good fiberglass technician. I personally use Rance at Xtreme in NAC but any good boat repair shop should be able to do an adequate job with a gel coated finish.
There are DIY methods but usually the outcome is not satisfactory.
Before I went to a lot of trouble, I think I would take some chalk and mark the area, buy a "stud finder" with a switch for metal studs. HF has a nice one cheap that works well on Foretravels. Locate the vertical metal member and mark it. Would then drill a half inch hole almost at the top of the small delaminated section. Mix some two part epoxy (flowable type in quart containers) from a paint store or Home Depot and inject a couple of ounces in through the hole giving it time to run down the inside. Place a small piece of plywood against the outside with a post or 2x4 against it with the other end perhaps against a building opposite, apply pressure and let it sit for 24 hours facing the sun if possible. If it bonds securely, fill the hole with auto bondo and sand with coarse paper it before it sets and then finish sand after it completely hardens. Mask around the hole so no decal/paint is scratched very much.
Pierce
The method Pierce describes sounds bizarre but it does work. I've used it myself on delaminated fiberglass. Although polyester resin was probably used to layup the FT sides, epoxy resin is the best for repairing any delams. Most "fiberglass" resin is polyester so be sure to know that you're using epoxy. West Systems epoxy is commonly available at boat supply stores (West Marine, etc.) and is widely used to repair fiberglass laid up with polyester resin.
I used a syringe a veterinarian friend gave me for injecting the epoxy resin but there might be something better out there. Be careful not to drill too deeply into the laminate; you just want to drill into the void. Don't inject so much resin into the void that it causes a bulge, itself.
The advantage to this method is that it's cheap, pretty easy to do (at least for small sections) and if you screw it up the repair job is no worse than it would have been for the delam itself.
Kayak stores (not REI) can often do this repair, too.
Craig
I've never repaired a delamination the "easy" way (most laminate on boats is more structural so issues call for the "right" way), but I can see where it might work. I concur on using a good, marine-type epoxy resin vs. polyester or cheap-type 5-minute epoxy. Reason is that you will be relying 100% on a mechanical (secondary) bond, because the time frame for achieving a chemical (primary) bond ran out decades ago (essentially within 24 hours of the initial layup). Epoxy has better secondary bonding characteristics than polyester.
As a side bonus you have a bit more control of the open (non-cured) window with epoxy (uses a hardener rather than a catalyst), and it doesn't smell like polyester does. (You can control the open time by using a slow or fast hardener, and also by cooling the epoxy if it's hot outside.) It will take longer to cure, so you need some way to clamp it while it sets. It's good to keep it off your skin, so I'd wear nitrile gloves and other protective gear.
One last thing I would do is figure out if the delamination was caused by something that should be taken care of, or if it was just a random flaw in the original layup (hence no "cause" that also needs to be fixed).
Alex
When drilling into the outside skin, the drill pressure may push the skin against the metal making it difficult to feel when the drill has penetrated the skin and not trying to drill the metal. A windshield installation suction cup next to the drill will keep the skin out while drilling. If there are two suction cups on the windshield installer, you can make the two parallel by using a hair dryer in the middle on the plastic handle and then bending it.
I paid $10 for my HF stud finder. It only gets one star but I found it works slick for finding metal underneath the roof of our U300 for the solar panel installation. It has controls on both sides, one for wood the other side for metal. Takes a little adjusting with the control but easy to find the exact width and center of the metal frame so the epoxy runs down the middle and secures it across the whole surface. I might inject a bit in, give it several minutes to run down inside and then a bit more just before I applied pressure. Here is the one I bought. Others brands will do just as well: Search results for: 'stud finder' (http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=stud+finder)
Pierce
Pierce, are you saying the skin is only bonded to the framework? I had assumed it was also bonded to the foam under it but if not then your method sounds great. I was planning on drilling multiple holes, syringing in epoxy and pulling a vacuum on skin from the dryer vent area to spread epoxy and provide pressure for bond.
I really wonder why the dryer vent causes delamination, sure seems to be the case.
I appreciate you guys taking the time in describing possible fixes.. It's not "unsitely" but if something isn't right.... well you folks know how it bugs us.
I would try the epoxy to the framework first. You said it was a small area. Would be good to see if a frame member passes through the delaminated area. Epoxy makes a super strong bond so if it does have a frame member there, that might do the trick.
Pierce
The area is under a window Alex but the rubber seal fits so tight I never would have thought any water would have gotten in the wall past it... certainly possible.
Might get lucky Pierce and have a joint of wall frame in the right spot...That would be sweet.
One thing to maybe clarify - and it may be obvious to those who actually own Foretravels (vs. me just hoping/shopping). Are we talking about de-bonding or about delamination? In other words, has the fiberglass de-bonded from whatever it was (presumably) bonded to (such as a backing or core material of foam or wood), or has it actually delaminated (i.e. the individual layers of cloth that make up the fiberglass "skin" have separated from each other)? In boats, it's relatively common for fiberglass to de-bond (typically water gets in and a glass skin de-bonds from a wood or foam core material), but not that common for it to delaminate (i.e. the skin layers separating from each other). Usually once the fiberglass is laid up it tends to stick together pretty well as a "single" layer, but it is vulnerable to detaching from other materials.
I might be off base here since I don't really know how the Foretravel was put together (especially in the area you are describing). My experience is with boats.
I think we're always (maybe incorrectly) talking about de-bonding and calling it delamination. Xtreme (Rance) told me it was always the fiberglass separating from the foam and framework.
Dryer vent - we had the same delamination (Debonding) under the dryer vent, and Rance said that's common because either FT didn't seal the vent to the fiberglass properly, or the seal comes loose over time, and water gets in under the fiberglass.
That makes sense to me. Many boats have cored decks, which are essentially a sandwich of fiberglass skin/core (foam or wood)/fiberglass skin (with the skin part being made up of numerous laminations). This construction results in a relatively light/stiff surface which is useful for large flattish surfaces, such as decks, that would otherwise be either very heavy or too flexy. There is (unfortunately) quite a history of issues on boats due to various penetrations allowing water into the "sandwich" which then contributes to de-bonding and, eventually, the core deteriorating (of course boats are constantly getting wet). When people rebuild these boats, they commonly seal the edges of any penetrations that go through the core by cutting back some of the core (wood or foam) and filling the "cut back" with thickened epoxy. Even though many foams are very water resistant, there is still the interface between the foam and the fiberglass.
At any rate, I'm still not familiar enough with the Foretravel "wall" to know exactly how it's put together or how I would work on it, but it does make sense that any de-bonding would be near a penetration such as the dryer vent.
As far as finding the metal studs I used a magnet to find the frame work for bulkhead repairs. Perhaps it would work the same on the sides.
I have an alluminum support directly behind and in center of my loose spots.. this is good... In trucking we have a load securing device used inside van and refer trailers called load locks... they are made of alluminum and have rubber feet on each end with a jack lever that applys pressure to the walls.. Will put one leg on the shed wall and the other on the MH wall and apply the pressure.
Ramble off subject a bit but it may be helpful to someone else.. I found these 2 spots that we are going to re glue while compounding the gel coat.. That's when I found the bit of "give" on the 2 to 3 ft area of glass... We are using 3m 06060 extra cut rubbing compound with a variable speed polishing wheel.. The man I have hired (my bad shoulder) wont take 5 days of that treatment is in his 3rd day as it is a slow but effective. Really waking up the finish and it is bringing back a really nice finish with shine. Will follow up with a coat of hard shell wax... I had planned to trade the coach for a later model when in fact this is all the coach I need.. The way it is shaping up I have about decided to keep it. I like the 280 fine so really a bit of fever is my reason for thinking of trading for a mid to late 90's. Truth is the past 4 years I have barely used this one but hope to change that late summer.. Hired some more office help in an effort to give me some degree of retirement time... Point is 3m 06060 extra cut compound is a good product.. a bit pricy at 48 bucks a quart after tax but a quart goes a long way.
My bad aluminum sidewall studs, magnet no workee.
ummm.. no workee bad... on a night when there is lots of humidity and dew I can see the outlines of the side support studs... that is odd. when the condensation dries off obviously the outline goes away.. That's how I saw the support behind my spot this morning. I made a small mark for reference.
The sidewalls on our coaches are steel, only the overhead framing structure is aluminum.
Don
I've come to admire the sturdy superstructure that is revealed on the outside surfaces as temperature and humidity change. :)
The easy cheap way to bring back a high quality gloss to any fiberglass gel coat is the use of, 1st. Bar Keepers Friend and White Light Duty 3M Scotch Brite Pads. Now that's done use Zep Wet Look, works a heck of a lot better than wax.
I have seen resin injection not work and make a big mess a lot more than times it has worked. That is why I did not detail the procedure originally. I have been working in and around resins and fiberglass for 45 years and I wouldn't attempt it on my Foretravel unless it was an emergency fix of some sort.
If you do try the injection method, doing it as Pierce suggests, a very small spot on the steel frame, is the safest way. For a full rebonding process someone trained in injection will tell you to drill a hole at the bottom of the delam and a vent at the top, screw in a zerk fitting in the bottom hole and buy and use a throw-a-way grease pump to fill the delam. Pump in the resin until it weeps at the top vent. YOU NEED TO USE A LOW VISCOSITY RESIN DESIGNED FOR INJECTION AND A HARDENER RELATIVE TO THE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE OR YOU WILL REALLY HAVE A MESS. If the blister is bowed out too much, press it in before you inject. You want a thin layer of resin that will remain flexible.
As you press the fiberglass to the substrate you will have to keep removing the outflow from the vent hole so make sure you have a soft plastic scraper, solvent that will be active on the resin but not harm the fiberglass and plenty of rags. Try to obtain at least 40 lbs of pressure against the side of the delam. As the resin starts to set up, remove the zerk fitting and fill the hole with compatible body putty, don't fill the vent until the resin is solid then fill with compatible body filler. My best guess is you have a less than 50% chance of success after two years of use.
Regarding delamination vs disbonding, they are the same thing. Once in a great while one will see interlaminary failure where the fiberglass sheet itself separates but that is very rare and usually due to a dry layup. To my knowledge, Foretravel walls are bonded to both the steel box frame and the Foam filler at the factory. If the frame should start to rust it will cause a delam of to the surface of the rusted steel to the wall and eventually due to movement break the bond of the foam to the wall.
My 93 Unihome had a full 1/4" thickness of fiberglass under the drivers window when Rance performed an invisible repair caused by some rust on the frame. Also, it is my understanding the the Unihomes have a steel roof frame just like the side walls. Does anyone know this to be untrue?
While it is possible to successfully rebond to a substrate, it's always something of a crapshoot. I've never seen anyone pump resin with a grease gun but I have seen a 65' boat resin infused under vacuum at one shot. An amazing process, the chances of something going very wrong are always there in which case you throw away the entire boat, thousands of dollars worth of bleeder cloth, laminating film, tubing, drums of catalyzed resin, possibly the mold itself and most likely pay dearly in disposal fees to boot. But when it works it's grand. And no VOCs.
Turns out I've got some separation in and around the dryer vent area also. I intend to fix it only because I'm afraid separation will spread if it's not dealt with, it's barely noticeable as is. Plan A is to drill some very small holes up high, inject epoxy, spread it with pressure from a laminate roller and aid of gravity, clamp in a fashion similar to Calflash Bob's description. And hope for the best. Don't see too much chance for catastrophe but the potential is always there when you're dealing with the sticky stuff. Worst case, it'll have to have the current Foretravel fix, cutting away the laminate and laying up new. Will report on process and results when it's done.
Dryer vent only common Delamination area on FT
I hope everyone understands that I DON'T recommend epoxy injection and the method I described was a DIY approach only. If you ever saw a so called pro doing that to your equipment, run don't walk away with your coach.
I'm considering all ideas.... also considering leaving it alone if it doesn't get any worse because it doesn't look like a defect.. You can't tell unless you push in on the sideing and it doesn't give but a little... Move the coach and it may be flush with the underside.. will add that pushing in on the siding.. the surface underneath feels solid...I do give thanks to all the participation.. I have learned and hope others have as well.