I'm looking for thoughts and advice on replacing my starting batteries. The three Optima Yellow Tops (8012-021 D34) batteries that faithfully start my 2002 U270 (without the boost switch) are a minimum of 8 years old. I am pretty sure they are actually the originals, put into service 11/2001, almost 12 years ago. This coach has spent several summers in the AZ heat, inside or outside. My car batteries routinely die here in 2-3 years.
Given that, I get worried that I should replace the batteries ($587.34 from Amazon for 3), as I don't want to have them die somewhere inconvenient. Given that price, however, I am really hesitant to replace perfectly good batteries...if they are still good and nothing bad will happen if I just wait til they stop working.
Has anyone replaced their yellow-tops? How long did they last? I keep the coach plugged in, with a Trik-l-start, but this sure seems to be lasting longer than I should expect. Since the Optimas have been so good to me for so long, I am hesitant to try another brand. Should I just keep using them until they start acting up? I know that I can use my boost switch to keep going, but I'm not sure if there would be an alternator issue if the batteries had a fault in them.
Thoughts?
Brad,
I would have the batteries tested with a high current tester that can draw 600-800 amps for 15 seconds. If the voltage drops substantially during this test, the batteries are getting weak. If the voltage holds up, you have some life left. Doing this test periodically over time will tell you if the batteries are trending down.
I think I do the equivalent of this when I start it. I can watch the voltage on my VMSpc readout. What would you consider a "substantial" drop off? Then again, this is the sum of the three batteries and wouldn't give me an individual check.
Check out Sams Club, where we buy our Optima Red Top starting batteries. Not sure if Costco sells them, too, but prices have been much lower at Sams Club. If not a member, business member cost us $35 last year. Our Optima starting batteries also lasted 8+ years and were working ok when replaced, so we have stayed with our Optima RedTops. You may find Red Tops interchangeable with Yellow Tops. Optima's different batteries are confusing and overlapping.
Yes, if you have one bad battery, you may not notice it. If you really wanted to check the batteries you would need to disconnect them and load test each one - a lot of work.
I went and looked at my load tester and on the test meter, after 15 seconds, if the voltage drops below 10 volts, that is considered "bad".
I am confused as to why Foretravel seems to have used both Red Tops and Yellow Tops over the years. The red tops seem to be about $20 less for each for the group 34s. I'll check Sam's Club. We're not members as the closest is about 60 miles away. Checked. They don't seem to sell Optima at the nearest store.
And our OEMs were Blue Tops, so that's what we replaced them with.
Ah...another Foretravel puzzle. Even after reading the Optioma website, I remain confused as to the best choice. I'll probably do the same, Michelle...replace what has worked well with the same thing. Optima says:
REDTOP®: Use this for normal engine starting where an alternator immediately monitors the state of charge and provides energy to the battery whenever it is needed. This would describe most stock vehicles.
Automotive and RV underhood starting
Heavy equipment where starting is the primary function
Diesel-powered vehicles with no aftermarket electronics
YELLOWTOP®: Use this when electrical loads are higher than average, or when the discharge cycle is more than typical engine starting, such as vehicles without alternators. This also includes vehicles with significant electrical loads that may exceed the average alternator output (for example, aftermarket audio systems, GPS, chargers, winches, snowplows, inverters, drag cars). This can also include vehicles that have a lot of electronics from the factory, such as a minivan with power sliding doors and a DVD player, especially if the DVD player is used when the engine isn't running.
Racing vehicles without a charging system (alternator or generator)
Dedicated drag-racing vehicles
Diesel-powered vehicles with aftermarket electronics
Car audio/video applications exceeding 250 watts over the OE system
Vehicles or heavy equipment with inverters, hydraulics, winches or other accessories
Electric vehicles
BLUETOP®: The BLUETOP® starting battery (dark gray case) is to be used when a dedicated starting battery is required; it should never be used for cycling duty. The dual-purpose BLUETOP® (light gray case) can be used for both starting and deep cycling; it is a true deep-cycle battery with extremely high cranking power.
Trolling motors, marine applications with heavy electrical accessories and RVs should use a dual-purpose BLUETOP® (which is both a starting and deep-cycle battery)
Use a BLUETOP® starting battery for marine applications and RVs when the battery's only function is engine starting
Note: The difference between BLUETOP® and YELLOWTOP® deep-cycle batteries is that BLUETOP® batteries have both automotive (SAE) posts and threaded studs, while YELLOWTOP®S (other than D31T) only have SAE terminals.
Ours are the dual-purpose version; light gray case.
So how long did your Blue-tops last, Michelle? Since you have a 2003, and have replaced them, it sure sounds like I am overdue. If the blue and yellow deep cycles are the same except for extra terminals (that I wouldn't use), sounds like I am not missing anything if I stay with yellow whenever the time comes.
I replaced mine with the blue top ones also.
The original set lasted almost 5 years, but were very weak after 4. To make a long story short, we weren't very savvy early on and didn't appreciate needing to use the boost switch. An incident with storage facility power did them (and the house batteries) in.
Between boost switch and now TrikLStart, the set we installed in 2007 are still going strong (knock on gorgeous walnut cabinetry ;) )
-M
My red tops in my 1996 lasted 16 years.
Wow! Maybe I am prematurely worrying. These batteries have never been allowed to get low in all this time, maybe they are still in good shape.
Check CCA cold cranking amps when comparing Optima's. Our coach came with two Optimas and since there was room in the start battery tray, we bought three Optima Reds when we changed batteries, so we now have 50% more amps.
Brad, thanks for the info on the difference with the various styles of Optima batteries. It helps a lot for the learning curve. Just one more thing figured out. ^.^d
Larry
My 270 only had two batteries too. I replaced mine in my current coach twice so far. The last time I added an extra wire directly to the starter and replaced the ground stud too. Nw the ISM sips up without any boost as fast as my old 8.3. The bouts circuit is only rated at 100 amps and will not start the coach.
We never start our coach with boost solenoid. Coach batteries need to be kept on charge with something like Trik-L-Start
Ultra TRIK-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer (http://www.lslproducts.net/TLSPage.html), and should start coach every time just fine without help from house batteries.
Boost solenoid can be used to 'charge' start battery bank from house battery bank 100-amp battery charger, but the solenoid cannot handle the amps needed to start coach. The boost solenoid will self-destruct if start batteries are low and the current needed to start engine comes from house batteries.
Replacing batteries (and tires) before they fail is always a good choice. And since we never know when they will fail, replacing them preventively based how old they are, works for us.
We always start using the boost. That is James T's recommendation.
Never had a problem with our 1997 U295 or 1999 U320.
best, paul
The boost solenoid can handle a much larger current than it's continuous rating for a short time. The key word is short. Starting the engine should take just a few seconds of cranking, this will not harm the solenoid even if the chassis battery is partially discharged. I start with boost. This gives the starter maximum voltage (better for the starter) and reduces the load on the chassis battery (better for the battery).
my 98 still have the original red top starting batteries, and can still start the
engine.
We were t a rally and one of the guys battery terminals corroded and fell into the battery even with he boost switch we could not start the engine. I ad one bad battery myself and I had to use an external jump as the boost was not enough to start the coach.
When the battery voltage drops below 10 volts while cranking, your shortening the starter life. Low voltage raises the amp draw making heat = bad for starter.
Getting the last drop of juice from your old batteries tends to become expensive.
Keeping the starter, batteries, contactors, alternator and the cables & connections in good condition provides for a happier outcome.
I agree with DaveM on that last one. After I cleaned the cable contacts near the starter, the M11 cranked faster. Keep those cable ends, clean and tight for best starting performance.
I do not have start batteries, I start from three 8D sealed house batteries (really start/house batteries).
After many hours of testing and measuring, I determined that the limitations with starting from just house batteries in my 1996 U320. was not the inability of the "deep cycle" house batteries to provide amps, or the inability of the boost solenoid to carry amps, it is the inability of the sixty feet of "000" wire to carry the required amps while maintaining the required voltage at the starter. While it was just thirty feet from the house batteries to the starter, there are two "000" battery cables, one for plus and one for minus (ground).
I moved two 8D house batteries from just behind the driver to just behind the passenger side rear tires (where the red top start batteries were located). Now the sixty feet of "000" cable carries the current from just one 8D battery.
I also moved the (now unused) diode block and all the associated wires, from behind the driver rear tires to under the foot of the bed which, in turn, allowed me to reduce the number of feet of wire between the batteries and the starter. I addition to this I moved the inverter, the converter, and the solar controller from just behind the driver to under the bed.
My M11 actually cranks faster than it did using three red top start batteries. The voltage at the starter confirms this because it is now 0.75 volts higher.
My last post got eaten bt the interwebs... So if it reappears and this is redundant, you'll understand why.
Good to hear the 16 year experiences.
My 2002 U270 came with 3 Optima D34 yellow tops. I searched for the Cummins recommendation for starting power but I could only find a second-hand recommendation of 950CCA. Since I have 3 batteries at 750 each, I have more than double that recommendation at 2250CCA.
As long as it keeps cranking fast, starting in 2-3 seconds, without a voltage drop on the VMSpc below 11 volts, I think I'll wait to spend my $600 and to start the next battery depletion clock. My terminals are clean and I do keep an eye on them. Well, they might be a bit dusty back there, but they aren't corroded.
Hi Brad;
For what it's worth, James T. (when I asked before replacing my Optima Red-Tops) suggested sticking with Red Tops. Mine were over 8-years old when the facility doing the front-end repairs ran them down to 5.3v. I recovered two of the three, but decided to replace all three with new Red-Tops. Everyone has an opinion on Optima Batteries, but I've had stupendously better service from them than any other battery I've owned. They're now in three of four vehicles we own.
4000 cca's versus 2400 roughly can't hurt the starting. My fresh redtops start my m11 redtop quickly.
Same thing killed two of the three redtops I had. I had a 20 amp+ automatic trickle charger installed at the isolater block to auto charge the engine battery's from the house side whenever a charge is detected. I have a 130 watt solar panel and the coach is outside so this should work. Boost switch is still there seperately.
I wonder if that recommendation changes with the addition of the additional electronics in the 2000-on coaches with slides? Since the Red tops used to be the OEM, and Foretravel apparently evolved to Yellow Tops and even Blue Tops in subsequent years...and those are each at least 10% more expensive than the Red Tops for FT to purchase... The Optima description seemed to be specifically concerned with electronics when it described choosing yellow or blue.
I do think that my next auto batteries will be Optima Red Tops. Incredible performance, well over 2 times what we get from Exide here in the desert!
I have never thought about replacing the engine battery's before they started to give me a reason to. I keep them and there leads clean and tight,I even have desulfators on the engine and house battery's. I have only used the boost to start when it's very cold out. I look at our starting system as very redundant. I can start with the engine battery's ,or help them start with the house battery's ,or use the house battery's to start the gen and then charge the start battery's. If a engine battery has a dead short I can even disk connect the engine battery's and start only with the house battery's. Gam
RE: The Optima description seemed to be specifically concerned with electronics when it described choosing yellow or blue.
I think that one of the things that differentiate Optima from other AGM batteries is their targeted marketing and various related claims. They have starting batteries (thinner plates?), deep discharge batteries (thicker plates?) and dual purpose batteries. Starting battery of equal or higher cold cranking amps is probably the most important thing to compare when replacing starting batteries. Generally batteries with more amps have more lead and weigh more, so battery weight can be another comparison factor. Most important is to be sure the batteries will fit in the space allowed, length, width AND height and that the terminals are in the same place and the same type.
I have 4 yellow tops as my starting batteries and have been mentally dancing around this issue for a bit. I must use the boost switch when starting my engine if it had not run in the last day or two.
I see I will have to go through the Barry Beam battery course on his web site.
Questions: Why do I have 4? Have noticed that others here with the M11 Redtop use two or three.
Thanks again in advance for your thoughts.
We didn't have good luck with our two Optima red tops - got 2.5 years out of them and then they wouldn't start without the boost switch on, so recently replaced them with one East Penn Deka 8A8D AGM at the same time we replaced our two house batteries (also with Deka 8A8D AGM's). Now the engine starts without boost!
Best thing I dd was replace the ground stud and run a second cable directly to the starter and not thru the spliter box. Coach turns over fast and no need for boost.
Thanks, John,
I have three recent Yellow Top Optimas at the suggestion of FOT. Where does the second cable to the starter from? Probably a starter solonoid? What is the splitter box?
And I hope your treatments turn out positive. Six weeks is a long time.
Thanks.
Roger
Our new to us 2004 U270 3610 has Walmart Flooded batteries for the starting batteries. We will replace them with Optima batteries. The question is should we replace them now or wait until they go bad. Thanks.
Larry
Your choice, consider the options,
1- Wait until your stuck in a bad place, then try to get new batteries.
2- Replace at your connivence while you control the easy outcome
Are you a lucky person, as your leaning on luck if you go with option 1
Do what makes you happy
Sounds like you do not have your start batteries under charge with something like Trik-L-Start, because you find it harder to start after a few days. And only smaller engine coaches came with 2 start batteries.
Walmart batteries may not have the best reputation compared to others. Really cold weather with high current draw means a cell connector on marginal batteries may fail leaving you with the cell phone option. On the other hand, do a Google search for Optima battery quality control problems and you will find quite a few forums that discuss these batteries.
I replaced our start batteries when we bought our U300 with 3 Autozone Duralasts @<$100/ea. (Detroit 2 cycle engines use 3 starting batteries). They are 3 years old now and spin the Detroit like a top even in sub-freezing weather. I never have to use the "boost" switch. Group 31 commercial batteries are also a good choice and will probably fit the stock rack but will need to be measured. They are extremely heavy for their size. Usually, battery weight is a good indication of quality.
Pierce
My service old buddy used two different electronic battery testers. Trick. Showed 795 cca's on one recovered red tops and 620 and 720 respectively for the other two. Out of 800.
He mentioned if I remember correctly the end ones working harder. He did say that was what he normally saw for wear.
I have to look and see if he rewired the engine start like the house where the positive comes off one battery and the negative off the opposite end of the string.
He did the house like that versus the oem's setup. They took it off the middle I think.
Bob
Have two Autozone Duralasts for start batteries like the ones Pierce has, and two Deka 8A8D AGM house batteries like Dave has. They are connected by a Trik-L-Start unit. Have not had to use the boost switch since installing the Trik-L-Start! They are being charged by a Progressive Dynamics 9270 70 amp power converter with built-in Charge Wizard. Combination seems to be working well for the past year, and is 100+% better than what the coach had when we brought it several years ago.
Replaced our 4 Optima Yellow tops with one East Penn Deka 8A8D AGM. Per Dave K's suggestion. Will also add the Ultra trik-l-start next week. Will change the two Flooded house batteries in the near future so all of our battery technology will be the same (it is a real pain to check water solution in the house battery compartment- have to remove both slide-out trays and everything in them). Getting ready for the solar jump.