Spent 3 hours today trouble shooting Low Voltage and ATS tripping under various conditions. After speaking with the CG Maint. guy, he stated that the voltage and amperage are sometimes on the low side here and "IF" I am using Aquahot and the blower it could try to pull more power than is available thus tripping the ATS. Also TT Rudy T (my Aquahot guru) and he advised checking tightness of the ATS power lugs - which I did - I was able to tighten a couple. Anyway - after practicing EXTREME Power Management AGAIN everything is fine. Our coach is not very happy on 30 amps.
I realize that I am a Rookie when it comes to this coach and how she operates and you folks have been very tolerant of my questions and postings but what am I missing?
Is there a procedure that I should follow when the ATSs trip, losing shore power, in terms of determining the cause. I also realize that I am somewhat sensitive since we have replaced the ATS under the bed and the Inverter/Converter. I do have a Progressive PT50. Maybe I should look into getting the Power transformer, that increases volts, mentioned in another thread.
Any thoughts, suggestions or criticisms would be welcome. It is a wonderful day in the neighborhood. :D Just lost shore power again will shut off Electrical element for the AH and run on diesel.
Guys,
What all are you trying to run at the same time on 30 Amp?
We lived on 30 Amp all summer in Maine (5 months) in 2009. As a rule, we could run one of the following:
Aquahot on electric
Microwave/oven
One A/C (either A/C or heat pump operation)
Splendide W/D
My hair dryer
The espresso machine
As long as we only had 1 of the above units on, we were fine with the regular usage of computers, fridge, TV, etc.
Since we were in Maine, we rarely needed A/C at night, so the bulk of the AquaHot running on electric was done overnight. The campground we were working in was "ok" but not "great" for voltage level. We never tripped the ATS, but we did trip the campground breaker when I accidentally started the Splendide (even just on wash) without first turning off the AquaHot.
When we are connected to 30-amp or with low voltage, we always "manage" our loads, like keeping our hot water on propane, or AquaHot on diesel. And turning off roof air before turning on microwave or keeping fridge on propane. We consider this standard fare. When in these conditions, nothing gets turned on without first looking at our Progressive Industries EMS remote readout and usually something gets turned off before something else gets turned on. Most think of EMS as being only a high/low voltage safety device. We think the main use of the EMS is having an AC amp readout, as we use it all the time.
We are now in a low voltage condition, as mentioned in another post, and we have switched our hot water to gas for the month. I would rather pay for propane or diesel than risk hurting a roof air due to low voltage.
I ran into a campground that has voltage at 129 and my transfer switch would not let that high of voltage into my coach. I had to make an adjustment inside the maverick transfer switch to get power for the coach. This was a first for me to have such high voltage. The campground is a state park in Nebraska and there is onlyone other camper here now.
Are you asking to determine the reason/cause that it tripped? That should be reported to you by the EMS PT50C as a PE? (Previous Error, then a number as identified on the box.)
E-0 Normal Condition
E-1 Reverse Polarity Condition (hot and neutral wires Reversed)
E-2 Open Ground (means no ground wire connection)
E-3 Line 1 Voltage High (Line 1 voltage above 132 volts)
E-4 Line 1 Voltage Low (Line 1 voltage below 104 volts)
E-5 Line 2 Voltage High (Line 2 voltage above 132 volts)
E-6 Line 2 Voltage Low (Line 2 voltage below 104 volts)
E-7 Line Frequency High (Line frequency above 69 cycles per second)
E-8 Line Frequency Low (Line frequency below 51 cycles per second)
E-10 Replace surge protector mode
Hi Michelle -
We have been following the power management tips you mentioned above pretty much.
Recently we were just running AH on electric (no blower fan) a couple of lights and my computer.
Going forward here we will use AH on diesel only.
What is tripping?
My guess is that the power pedestal into which you are plugged is incapable of supplying the proper voltage at the rated current.
The PT50 is supposed to trip and cut power to the coach if it senses voltage below 104V. It will keep the power off until the supply maintains 104-132V continuously for at least 136 seconds. If that is tripping, there is probably nothing wrong with your coach. The problem would lie in the power distribution system in the campground.
Our experience has been that 30 amp service is usually sufficient for our needs, unless we need both air conditioners. We don't have Aquahot, but we do use the electric element in our water heater when we are on shore power. I think it draws about the same power as the electric element in the Aquahot.
If you have a block heater in addition to Aquahot, avoid using the electric element in the Aquahot at the same time as the block heater.
Yes Brad - I have had fault codes. Both high and low.
Sooooo. The EMS PT50 is shutting down and the ATS is tripping, changing over from Shore Power to House Battery Power. When the shore power gets back to an acceptable level it allows power back into the coach through the ATS and turns off the House Battery Power. Right?
It is hard for me to understand that voltage/amperage can be this inconsistent.
DW, Carol and I were just chatting that this is the worst we have seen. Albuquerque was bad but not this bad. We were also on 30 amps in gig Harbor for 6 weeks and this was not happening.
That really is bizarre...both high and low voltage trips. I have been in campgrounds that were either too high or gotten too low when too many campers drug the campground's voltage down, but that sounds like the power is really, really poorly controlled...either in the campground or in its power feed from the utility company. I assume you meant the voltage being high or low...I've never experienced the E-7 or E-8 errors.
It sure sounds like it is the campground and not your coach. What you describe is exactly what should be going on (with your inverter switched on)...When you lose shore power because the EMS PT50C is protecting you, then the second ATS under the bed sees the lack of power and allows the inverter to go through.
I imagine you are using a dogbone converter for the 50/30A conversion...that could possibly be suspect if it were damaged? That is about the only thing I could think of that might be under your control. I've never heard of a failure there, tho.
I have never had a problem running my coach on a 30A circuit by the way, but then I have no aquahot so I don't know how much current that takes. Like Michelle says, you just have to stay within your limits. 30Amps times 120Volts gives you a total of 3600 watts available at a time. 30A at 105V reduces that power availability to 3150 Watts....
I think it's clearly the park.
In fact, the maintenance guy admitted as much when he said that BOTH voltage and current (amperage) could be low. The EMS is shutting down power to the coach when the voltage drops at the pedestal. The voltage drops because the electrical system cannot supply the 30A to anyone (I suspect). When several RVs (along with you) happen to all try to draw extra power from the system simultaneously, the voltage drops even lower and the EMS protects YOUR coach by shutting your power off. Then your ATS detects the loss of shore power and switches over to internal battery/inverter power.
There is nothing you can do to fix this; even an autoformer would not work because there is simply not enough power at the pedestal to supply what your RV draws (an autoformer does not change power, just voltage... and current (amperage) must change to reflect this... and it cannot).
All you can do is cut way back on electrical power usage (Aquahot on diesel, no A/C, no microwave, etc.) and it sounds like you've already done this. If you do need to use those appliances then you might consider running your generator.
Craig
Anyone remember the TV show Green Acres ?
The toaster was a 3 and the coffee pot was a 2 and that's 5 and your only allowed 4 and up the pole he went to change the fuse!
Green Acres, a Foretravel on 30 amp power!
Thanks for your input. Going to take the North Rim tour via Jeep today. Beautiful morning, bright sun and blue sky - 42 F.
In 2006 we were working Maine and another Foretravel pulled in, asked for a 50a site and then proceeded to hook up to the 30a with a dogbone adapter. I was called out as he showed some strange code inside his rig. When I asked about his using 30a after asking for 50a he said that he always used the dogbone since it had special filtering properties to protect his coach! I unhooked it and the male blades fell out onto the ground. I am never surprised by what I find anymore. BTW, plugged him into 50a and all was well.
So I guess I've got to beat this thing to death....
If on 30 amps (if I even have 30 amps) running 112 volts - is it possible that my AH @ 15 amp draw could suck volts/amps from the pedestal and cause the PT50 to shut off power to the coach showing a P06 (low volts line 2)? ???
Oh you electrical gurus.......
What else do you have on? It's the total amp draw on your circuit that will determine voltage drop.
Scott,do you have the battery charger or the inverter on, if so turn them off and see if you still have a problem.
We only had the AH element, a couple of lights and our Magnum 2812 inverter/converter.
I will turn off the 2812 today and try to replicate.
Reversed polarity?
We had this in a CG forba douple of days.. it was Electric pedistal
With the EMS PT50C, it is easy to narrow down the culprit...if there is a culprit inside your coach instead of just poorly regulated power at the pedestal.
Look at the Line2 Amperage as it scrolls thru the informtion screen. You will see exactly what is coming off the pedestal, passing thru it, and to your coach. Have someone go nside and turn off everything that you think is on, then see what the draw remains. If you still see high amperage on that line, then it is time to identify exactly what items are causing it...by turning off the circuit breakers that take from line 2, one at a time.
Thanks Brad - I will try that after the DW gets up. I feel like such a dufus.
Scott no need to feel dufusey. We've all been there... :)
see ya
ken
Thanks Ken-
PT 50 readings:
No AH element - L-1 112 4A E0
L-2 112 3A PE6
AH element on _ L-1 106 4A E0
L-2 105 16A PE6
My Progressive box shows fault code PE6 as High Voltage Line 2
Thoughts???
Scott,
I do not put up with such lousy power when paying, I would move on down the road. The camp ground has little incentive to improve the issue IF costumers put up with that quality.
MO
Dave - I absolutely agree with you. We will pull out tomorrow AM. Thought about pulling out today, due to power, but DW has some other things she wants to see. Will take the Jeep and do some off road Forest Service roads.
They are rewiring the CG in the near future, so I am told.
This kind of stuff just drives me crazy.
Scott, the information you have shared points to a problem in the shore power system, not in your coach. Corroded connections are not uncommon in pedestals. Anything more than a minimal draw of current through a corroded "hot side" connection will drop the voltage significantly. You are wise to use the PT50 to protect your systems from the bad power source.
Also, if there are bad connections on a neutral line that serves more than your circuit, you could end up with high voltage because of unbalanced circuits. Keep the PT50 in place, enjoy the remainder of your visit, and move on to better hookups.
Thanks JD - Good to know. Thanks for your input everybody. :D
I'll second the "no dufus." Lotsa learning goes on here still as new issues present themselves to me.
Your PE6 error was just the last error. he meat of the issue is now, when power is flowing, the EMS tells you are taking 16A on Line 2. That tells you your AH is adding 13 amps to your "normal" load of 4A on line1 and 3A on line2. You might try to identify the 3A line2 load and reduce it, but that is so small it really won't make a difference. I don't know what the AquaHot is supposed to take, but I would think 13A wouldn't be out of line. Others will have to chime in if it is. Your total amperage is only 20A...which would not be a problem for a *real* 30A service.
Glad you are leaving this campground and its awful power. Hopefully you feel relieved about it NOT being a problem with your coach.
thanks Brad for your input. The way it looked to me 20 amps was not a problem for a 30 amp service either. But who knows. Thanks again for your input hope you're having a great day.
Having just worked on an aquahot I remember it saying from 19 amps to 25 DC depending on model. The internal heater uses 13 amp 120v and the rest works off 12v.
John H
Hey Scott,
Hope you and Carol have enjoyed your stay at the Canyon, despite your campground voltage problems. We have not been to the North rim but look forward to it maybe next summer.
Your (and other recent post) problems with campground power has me wanting to get an EMS before we leave Rayford Crossing. Do you (or any other forum members) have any comments related to portable vs hardwired? I think I could install the hardwired unit but would like to hear your thoughts about your portable unit. Maybe someone has installed the hardwired unit and could give me their thoughts. Wishing safe and trouble free travels.
Bill
I love my portable model. I have actually walked around a couple of campsites with it in hand to check the pedestals before selecting a site. Easier than moving the coach from one to the other. Just my thought.
Bill - sent you and email as not to hijack this thread.
Brad - We have not used it to select a spot.....yet, but will certainly consider it going forward.
We have just not seen the power fluctuation between CGs before we had our U320. Maybe I was just not aware as we had a 32' TT that only required 30amp and did not even consider any equipment to monitor/protect our trailer. We just plugged in and were happy.
TT wiring is very basic and you do not have the sensitive electronics that Motor homes have as you know. Different animals totally.
John H
I took one look at the "boxes" of electronics in the basement of my 2002 U270 and promptly forked over the money for the protection of an EMS. That stuff looks way too expensive to replace to me.
I think it was 2003 or 2004 that FT started putting in some protection???
This has been an interesting stay at the North Rim. We have seen some of the most beautiful colors, shapes and textures. Have again met some wonderful people and spent a good part of my time learning about me, our coach and our fellow forum members. We are leaving tomorrow morning and have logged another adventure. Wouldn't trade it for the world. You folks are the best.
PS - We found out this afternoon from the CG Mgr. that a number of spaces are being worked on in the next two weeks. Our spot is one of them. Will have 50amp. Timing is everything - EH? :-* :-*
Just a question-when you encounter a low voltage at the pedestal and don't want to move, why not just run the A-H on diesel?
Hi Amos - Great question.
My only answer is that I did not know for sure that low voltage was the problem. Once I knew that low voltage/amps were the culprit(s) it became a matter of me understanding how the coach electronics worked. We did stay the last two days using AH diesel and everything was fine.
An update on my high voltage problem. The voltage increased to 130.4 for a while the next day and then the transfer switch shut down. I do not know what the voltage was at the post as it was raining at the time. so I unplugged the coach and ran the generator the rest of the night and then moved on to another campground the next day
Power is so interesting.....We are currently parked and plugged into a 20amp outlet at my sister's house in AZ. Carol has been running her hair dryer and microwave (at different times) and everything is OK. We do not have the AH electrical element on. Interesting.