I have not yet seen the show, but will. I hope this is not too far removed from the thread.
About a month ago, when we first got serious about buying a FT, we visited the factory. It is a ghost town. Very few employee cars, doors closed, no new coaches out front, very few people in evidence.
As old geezers we are very concerned about maintenance/warranty support. We currently have a m/h from a failed builder, and unique parts support has been a nightmare.
Is Foretravel in the throes of going bankrupt?
Is Foretravel
You might have been there during the time that the Grandvention was happening in TN, with new coaches and some of the crew gone as support staff.
They continue to offer service and upgrades by appointment, and were some weeks or months out on some of the schedules. They will have sometimes a new coach or several on the east side, and then the trade and consignment coaches on the north side outside the fence.
Were you just there one day and was it a Friday? Production runs M-Th so there aren't many folks at the factory itself on Friday. Service and sales, though, are usually open. That's usually about 5 or so folks (3 salesguys, sales manager, reception kiosk gal). Typically there are 2-3 new coaches out front. Since you mentioned it was about a month ago, if it happened to be the Friday of Labor Day weekend, they may have closed early to give service employees an even longer weekend.
No, actually both trips where I observed this were in the middle of the week and nowhe r e near Labor Day. Zero coaches out front, but some folks doing repair out in back. Apparently no new stuff around.
I want to get a FT, just anxious not to get hung out on a limb...again.
Having spent a fair amount of time at Foretravel ? I wonder if you were actually at Foretravel, or there is a missing part of this story I think, just total different than anything I have experienced.
Did you stop and enter the show room or were you expecting them to come to your door ?
Bacebird,
Foretravel is a profitable business at the current level of activity. They do an incredible job of supporting their product, with James Triana available to all owners as technical support, going back at least to the 1980's vintage coaches.
Foretravel would probably gone out of business had Mr. Dane Miller not bought the company around the 2005 time frame. Since then FT has right sized and come out with a new high end coach, and is also expanding into new markets with commercial shells.
Mr. Miller made his fortune at Bio-Met in Warsaw Indiana. One of his Hobbies is his 126 foot yacht, while his delightful wife owns Mary Lou Racing, which fields the #70. Foretravel car in the Nationwide series driven by Joanna Long.
While I am sure Mr. Miller is looking for a return on his investment, my take is that Foretravel is well funded and profitable even at the current business volume.
Since a substantial amount of their steady revenue stream is repair and remodel of used Foretravels, I expect their great support to continue going forward.
Good luck to you in your search, if you end up with a Foretravel, you won't be unhappy.
I do not have concerns of FT not being a going concern. They just opened a new product line that I think will takeoff great. Their coach is the best production coach out there that us not a Liberty on a Prevost Chassis. I would put one of the new IH coaches up against a Newell as well. I do not think you get much more for an extra million bucks. You do get a steering tag though and that is neat up very expensive to fix.
Mr Bracebird ; I have read all so far . Suggest you phone them at 800 955 6226 , then ext 120 ask for Lance Hays , he knows what's going on there , and is a great guy to talk with . When you show up cold turkey it reduces your chance on doing anything . Brad Metzger
I agree Brad. I would not show up at a real estate office cold turkey to shop for a million dollar home. You need to establish a relationship and communicate your needs in order to make a successful purchase.
I am very surprised at your experience as well. We have been to the factory at least two times per year the last five years and there has always been activity around the southern most building complex. The repair and remodel shop were always active, even around Christmas. However there are not always new coaches out front and you don't see lots of cars around the production buildings but their business seems sound.
Sorry you came away with a negative impression. We have always felt very good about our visits to the factory even though our coach is twenty years old we have been treated with respect and care.
Just came back from Foretravel and they are booked several weeks in advance for service and remodel. No new coaches out front; but, they have sent some to their new dealer in Alvarado-- Motor Home Specialist. Not sure how many spec motorhomes are being built but most are built to order. Does not appear their horse trailer idea is working very well. On site were several IH-45 units but each had been sold I think. There were several headlight conversions being done. Things seem normal. Not a lot of consignment coaches but Tyle Fore indicated they have several coming in. DAN
If Foretravel were having a problem, don't think you would be seeing a race car with their logo on the side on national TV. You have no idea how expensive it is to campaign a race car in NASCAR's Nationwide Series.
Pierce
Been thinking about this bracebird thing . Feel that it is bogus from the get go . Things said that do not add up one bit . Some people stir the pot to watch it spill over . All Forum members know exactly what you see when you go to FOT . I expect we are seeing something here from a sour service provider from several hundred miles up the road . Think about the timing and what went on while we were the GV in Tenn. Brad Metzger
Well,
I don't think they are going belly up, though I am not an accountant with information. I just recently spoke with the service dept and they are booked up I think he said for 6 weeks (I was asking about doing something to my coach). I noted to them that maybe they should hire more folks. I have taken my FT in for service and with the charges (probably fair) were not cheap. It seems unlikely that they are not making some money off of my work. With regard to the new coach sales and profits, I guess they could be losing money. I would think if they are selling, then they are probably fine. If the coaches are not selling then there certainly could be an issue. FWIW, I am glad to have them available and have been very happy with the work that they have done for me. Yes, not cheap but happy with results.
I wonder anyone of you think this .... For years I have said If Ford, Chevy & Dodge bring some of their 65-69 brands & styles with new technology and make it affordable (at least to some portion of the income bracket) they would sell like hot cakes. Finally they listen to me ??? (and everyone else) Look at what they did with the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger and Charger.
If I was FT while building custom million dollar models, I would bring back the mid entry Grand Villa with angled front windshield back and build three 36" models for 250K (325hp), 350K (375hp) & 450K (425hp). I believe they can still build it with FT quality and still make profit. I believe they will sell like hot cakes no ? Build them simple & functional. For example use a household fridge instead of the 3-4K fridge; perhaps the 3 way functional fridge will be a upgrade. Don't use leather but use good quality fabric ... There are so many ways it can be done and done right and profitable.
Anyway
I asked that very question and the cost issue is the chassis. They are making shells on freightliner chassis now but that would not be a FT. Also the GV style after the bus front came out just did not sell. Maybe now it will but you can get a mid entry in the current style too.
I do know that David Flannagan's remodel shop doubled the number of employees in the last year...Whenever we have been in for service/remodeling ALL the bays are full, every day... They have at least 3 full time sale people out front, so they must be selling something????
If memory serves me parts of the Newell are aluminum skinned. Too easily damaged and a conductor of heat and cold.
Can't imagine scraping the painted, aluminum sidewall with small tree branches the my gel coat 97 shakes off.
Bob
Mostly for Brad:
Reply from "Bogus" Bacebird. We have visited the factory on two separate occasions, have talked in person twice with Tyle Fore and once with Paul Tinkle. We have even walked through the original coach on the showroom floor. Our concern and statements are exactly as was written. We WANT a Foretravel, and were trying to be up front as we have previously been burned by the crashing of the builders of two of the seven RV's that we have owned. Sorry if you were offended by our legitimate question. Old coots are that way.
We are delighted to have received the assurances that have been put forth on this forum. Thanks to all who have addressed our concerns. We plan :-X to soon be an owner. :-X
In this day and age, I think any top of the line companies are subjected to failure. The best can go under just as fast as the worst. And the publicly owned companies can go under just as quickly as the family owned ones. The are some ruthless folks out there who specialize in killing any company that they can get their hands on, provided they can make a quick buck in doing so. And regretfully they are doing it to some excellent companies.
Anyone that was around FOT this week would certainly have the impression that the company is a going concern. As I mentioned in another post, there were 25 coaches parked in the overnight lot Sunday night. Most were waiting for service. But I have also heard that they are building less than 10 new coaches per year. Hard to imagine they can make it on that.
In contrast, one company that seems to be doing very well is Tiffin. In our travels this summer we have seen Allegro and Phaeton coaches everywhere we went.... new and old. And often multiple coaches in a single park. I think we saw maybe five FTs this summer. When we left the Asheville park there were 5 Tiffin coaches parked in a row and it was not a rally. Amazing. They must be doing something right. Like I said, some of the Allegro coaches look like they date back into the '90s and are still going. I'm not saying they are as good as a FT, but maybe good enough.
A big part of the most recent departure of many companies is that they got caught with big loans outstanding; often for flooring. This has happened to a lot of the mobile home manufacturers who were using bank loans to finance models on various sites. When the fecal matter hit the fan in 2008 and the banks called those loans they couldn't pay them off with those homes.
Foretravel might be pretty smart to only build 10 motor homes a year as long as they don't have to take out a loan to do it. And at $1.2mil per motor home that might be enough to keep them going.
Tiffin, on the other hand, might be a bit nervous if the dire economic predictions revolving around October 17th come to pass.
Craig
I think you might find that many of the coaches at FOT where there now for the Ladies Driving School. What you see a lot of in RV parks or on the road does not equate to good business for a manufacture. We saw a lot of Monaco's running around and they went belly up when their loans were called in by the banks. If Tiffin has major loans out, they too run the risk of following Monoco as well. Nobody with the funds today want a coach that looks like the 90's. Those days are gone and many look for the new features. If you like the 90's look, then you are best off buying a used unit.
While this can be true... the new higher mpg coaches look remarkably like the 90s Grand Villas with streamlined front and rounded roof edges. This was what we were looking for. The Euro look will catch on even more if diesel gets above $5 and stays there.
I've been wrong about trends before though... so it's never fully predictable. I grew up in an era where you would never hear anyone say "it's so dated" or find them junking perfectly good appliances simply to buy different models for the "look". Unless it was a wood burning cook stove; which, oddly enough, they now want....
Craig
Well count me as a person "without funds." And I don't want a coach that looks like the 90s either. My point, perhaps I was unclear, was that there are many Tiffin coaches on the road that are 10-15 years old. That says a lot, at least to me.
Another thing that impresses me about Tiffin is their new line of smaller diesel pusher coaches.... 34' of so. Very nice looking and they seem to be selling well. A number of us have suggested that FT go this route and sell a quality coach in shorter lengths for those "without funds."
I would say that there are enough low end coaches on the market today and Foretravel is best off not offering small end coaches. The image today of Foretravel is building quality full size coaches. This is not the time economically to experiment with low end coaches or smaller coaches less than 40 feet. I surely wish Foretravel the best and stay strong with the product line that is developed today and proven true.
I expect building small coaches is like building small houses. They've both got a driveway, sewer tap, kitchen, bathrooms, HVAC system. The extra gross square footage of the larger house is cheap and easier to sell for more money. Small = small profit margin unless you can cut in other areas.
Now if someone could figure out how to pultrude (extruded fiberglass shapes process) unitbody lightweight coach frames/sidewalls/roof with some carbon for rigidity in critical areas you could squeeze one out any length you want. Chop it off, glue on caps and add running gear! Something like that is where efficiency will start which is what the industry in general needs. Look how many mpg cars squeeze out these days, and some of em have got some punch.
I don't feel a Ladies Driving School effect here in FT service. Every bay is filled. David Flanagan has a backlog of 29 projects, 5 of which are residential fridge conversions, stretching out into January. And that's with a 60% staff increase.
I don't think anyone has suggested that FT start to produce "low end" coaches. But of course everything is relative when one defines "low end." What has been suggested is that FT produce a smaller, but high quality coach, and at a price that a larger group of consumers could afford. What happens when all the pre-2005 FT coaches are retired? FT has nothing to take their place for those that have brand loyalty. In some respects we live in a "golden age" for FT coaches where many of modest means can afford to own and enjoy a FT.
True, true. Unfortunately, Foretravel's biggest competitor, I think, is Foretravel used coaches. Maybe that's why I've taken steps to jump ahead of Dave Head as a buyer of what he thinks will be his next coach.
Are we approaching an era when older FT's start appreciating like classic cars?
There does not seem to be as many of them hitting the market these days. Lots of folks, myself included, have found the purchase and cost of ownership to provide an outstanding value. The only way I'd sell mine is if I found a pristine version of a slightly newer FT coach available or I lost the physical capabilities to use and care for it.
Fine by me. I'm out of the market for at least five years while we shed debt. We got one trip done this year. Then Starr began her hospital stays. She is now on her 7th stay since April. Coach needs rear seals and brakes all around. Likely a few bad guide pins as one pad thin, one thick on all four corners. I will have the back done and likely do the fronts with some assistance.
Sounds about like my plan, Had considered a new 38' Phenix with the 600 ISX, but its too heavy for my taste, I prefer something more nimble like my 01 36" with the ISM500 setup and of course the red neck resonator. Along with all the other mods that I have made to this buggy, there is no way I could give it up short of total destruction or do like the frog and croak.
Very interesting reason why a company should take a huge gamble today. I never considered that the company today should think about what will be sold used ten years from now. I am sure there will always be used Foretravels to purchase since they hold up very well.
I think George has a good point about Tiffin - their customer loyalty is very very strong and they are smart about their product line - EXCEPT for their top of the line coach the Zephyr which sells in extremely small numbers; it just does not offer that much more than the Allegro Bus which is priced much more reasonably - the Bus is probably the most formidable competitor to the Zephyr. That said, Tiffin is well positioned for long term survival but I know they want the respect that comes from offering a genuine top of the line coach.
Foretravel on the other hand is largely living off it's past - the build volume is just too small to sustain engineering costs, manufacturing facilities, etc. And all those coaches at FOT/MOT for upgrades, etc. (I've got one too) are from the era of build rates 10 times that of today's production. As those coaches age and continue to depreciate (and they will) the next owners of those coaches will not have the funds to put into something that old and cheap. Hey, don't shoot the messenger but those coaches will disappear over time and there is only one replacement for every ten that "retire".
Foretravel needs to find a partner for the future - and I think it is Tiffin. They need a top line coach in their product portfolio and Bob Tiffin probably knows they can't successfully crack the $500k barrier with their current lineup. Foretravel would enable them to leapfrog Entegra and American and Foretravel will survive and prosper thanks to the volume base from the Tiffin line.
Might not be the most popular post I've made lately, but you gotta think about it.
The U225 cost $193,500 in 1994. That $193,500 is worth $305,365.72 in 2013 dollars. I don't think that comes close to a new Foretravel today!!! And I know what 1994 U225s are going for. A little appreciation might be nice if I were valuing mine for sale, but i am not.
Thing is that Bob tried to retire once already. He had to come back to keep things running. I don't see him taking on more, and sure don't see him selling or merging.
Greg Amys addressed this at the GV. Due to their high cost of FT custom chassis, they can't address the lower cost market on the FT Chassis. If they tried to make a FT coach on a Freightliner or similar chassis they would have to compete against Tiffin that has cost advantages in their materials (MUCH higher volumes) and Tiffin has a great deal of automation in their manufacturing, which would give not only a material cost advantage, but a labor cost advantage. Basically Greg said that moving downmarket would not be profitable.
FT will continue in the high end market, and try to develop/exploit other low volume, reasonable margin offshoots going forward.
Tim, you are right - no way could Foretravel build a Phaeton or Allegro Bus at a competitive price without losing their shirt. Tiffin is a volume assembly line coach company and they crank them out very efficiently. They do build their own chassis (Powerglide) for the Breeze and the Bus but it is basically a raised rail chassis like Freightliner's but with some added features.
As BobC points out, Bob Tiffin has already established his legacy and is still on the job; probably until he leaves "feet first". His kids are running more and more of the daily operations areas but he is the face of the company and the one owners call for help. Nobody on their forum says much about the kids and their motivations.
The possibilities are interesting however.
The idea of Foretravel trying to be like Tiffin would be very dangerous for the Foretravel company. As a financial backer to Monoco, the concept of "pumping out" many units to flood the market was the downfall of Monoco. When the economy tanked and the banks called for the loans made to Monoco, it placed a nail in the coffin for that company. With stock not sold and no market to sell the coaches to, the loans could not be payed and thus bankruptcy. While Tiffin, which is still a family run business, is heading down the same road with mass production. This economy can and will shortly tank again and this too could spell disaster for Tiffin and their inventory. To really understand the situation in the class A market you need to look at yearly production and delivery data. Foretravel is what I would call in protection mode and survival until and if this economy can improve. Lowering Foretravel Standards like using an inferior chassis so they can compete in the low end market is preposterous. Maybe for some, the new coaches are out of their reach financially and need to consider another brand.
The new coaches are also targeted towards a different end user than the previous generations. There are a number of folks on the forum who likely have several coach purchases in their RV future, but don't see some of the desired features of their current FTs in the new models (a couple of examples are, but not limited to, lower exterior height, interior cabinet storage, etc.) For them it has less to do with affordability and much to do with wanting what drew them to FT in the first place. With the company reinventing its product line it leaves this segment of owners struggling to figure out what their next coach will be.
So true and well said. However, as with anything you purchase, it does not mean the company you purchased it from needs to remain producing the same price point product. I surely wish those 8 track tape manufactures would keep or re-start making 8 tracks since in my 1970 antique Gremlin I have an 8 track tape player. Heck, I demand they continue making these tapes again, it is their obligation! Ha!
The only obligation that FOT has, besides making money, would be a moral one. That is, to keep running as long as they can to keep those dedicated employees working. The rest doesn't really matter except to a few Foretravel enthusiasts like us FoFums.
Not to hijack the thread, but my Dad had a brand new Gremlin (What a name for a car...) Three speed on the flow, straight six up front, burgundy, two doors and a hatchback. Yup, 8 track too.
Gave it away to a friend when it was old, she wrecked it falling asleep at the wheel one night...she was fine though.
The best result for Foretravel might be an owner like Tiffin who is already successful in the business and can see the value in a unique highline product. The advantage to Foretravel would be access to Tiffin's engineering and manufacturing resources which are funded by their higher volume products - something Foretravel lacks today. I would love to see what Foretravel could do with access to more resources.
This thread has been very interesting reading for me. I agree that the newer coaches are a little different than the earlier ones. However, how many members of this forum could have afforded a new Foretravel in 2004 when the MSRP was between $355,000 and $555,000. And, considering inflation and the fact that Motorhome Specialist is offering a new IH45 for $799,000, that is approximately the same price range that was available in 2004. And, a 2014 37 foot Tiffin Motorhome has less features and value than my 2004 36 foot Foretravel. For instance, eight air bags, four wheel disc brakes, electric hose reels, etc. are still missing on Tiffins in 2014 except for the very high end models.
Larry
There are so many intelligent folks are on this forum. All kinds of knowledge and experience ... current business owners or had run business, etc; there is enough combined experience to probably run a factory or the entire country.
What FT has ... they are sitting on a gold mine, question is do they realize it. IMO they can have such a great market share and kick everyone's tail while doing it ... if they wanted, but I think they don't need it and/or not hungry enough to do it.
This forum and following they have is enough of evidence to what they have ... maybe they will take advantage of it maybe they won't .... in any event it is all great for all of us for now, enjoy :-)
This is very much a niche market. I liken it to either
1. Bake the most delicious wholesome locally grown organic ingredients deep dish 5 pound apple pies and only sell 10 a week to the most important restaurants in the area. Or,
2. Try be be Hostess bakers...and make 2 pound tasteless apple pies made from the bulk products sold by the masses and market these to the general public through supper market chains...or worse yet...Walmart.
No disrespect to Wally World... ;D
Or :-) Bring back one of your most successful 80-90's model that you can sell it to more people as Ford did with Mustang.
There seems to be a tendency here to link the words "less expensive" with low quality. There are plenty of lower quality coaches on the market and I don't think anyone is suggesting that FT create a new coach that does not have the quality that all of us expect from Foretravel. What is being suggested is that there could be a coach that is shorter (say 36') and with a smaller profile than the IH45. Also, one that is simpler in design and in options (i.e., fewer of the electronic niceties that typically create so many issues after a few years). And with a pricetag in the less than $500K range. I agree, FT probably isn't equipped to get into that market, but with the heck, it is interesting to speculate about possible directions for the company. We all want it to succeed for years to come.
I wonder how many would be ready to purchase a new, least expensive unit from Foretravel in this Forum. Lets say the new coach will cost $250,000 and be a 36 footer. You can get it in a front entry door or a mid entry door. OK - now you will have to put your money up front before ordering. How many takers do we have? Naturally, this is not going to happen but lets see how many people are really willing to spend money in this category rather than buying coaches that are in the price point of less than $100,000.
I have often wondered why that don't "factory refurbish" some of the well cared for older coaches I see on the market. Somehow I feel like there is a market for units that have been gone through and repaired/updated by the factory.
Almost thirty years ago when I started selling Foretravels it became quickly clear that the vast majority of customers would not or could not purchase a new coach from us.
I always did what cm fore told me which was to allow "everyone to have the opportunity to purchase one". Even though I knew the vast majority were not going to buy I took hundreds of demo rides.
So like a lot here I figured out a way to get some of the customers into a Foretravel.
I rebuilt the older used ftx coaches into whatever brand new interior they liked.
Sold a bunch. Got them into the club which built a lot of brand loyalty.
Many traded up into later used. Some new.
Step buying I call it. Or my favorite "bob's law of incremental commitment".
Without a trade up structure built into the factories system in which the steps are financially reachable you break the continuity carefully built into the original system that worked for 30 years plus.
Foretravel purchased travco for the established travel club and and gtc for the grand villa front cap and Avco for their owners to join the club.
If I ran Foretravel I would be actively searching for nice used coaches to rebuild the trade up structure and rebuild them in house for resale. And the sales profits.
I used to buy coaches actively for some dealers I worked for. Mostly big stuff.
If a customer came into my store willing to spend $30k plus for a remodel I would make sure I had a few years newer model already redone ready to roll to show them.
As everyone here has commented Foretravels remodel shop is busy. As is service.
My advantage was I gave a basically unlimited warranty. Told the used buyers to bring me a list and I would fix all of it on me. And did it.
Yes I charged more. The customers paid retail and got a retail experience and support.
First year as sales manager i spent $75k of company money to fix every coach that had been sold by my store and never made right for the customer by being to frugal to stand behind anything out of warranty. Stupid.
For a lot of customers it was not the money it was the idea.
They were all amazed I fixed all their old not correct coaches over a few years.
Almost every one who could financially afford a newer or new coach bought again.
Texas was surprised as after three years I the factory store at the factory. They were too embarrassed to admit I made more money for them also.
Almost have to start over with a trade up structure again.
Bare bones unicoach? No paint, one or no slide, explain the quality and stress the club.
A large percentage of the buyers then did it for the new friends they made in the club.
100 coaches at the grand vention is the key.
I had a Foretravel rally at dodger stadium myself during the old manufacturers show their that had 115 coaches dry camped in the parking lot. Giant steak cookout. What fun.
Allowed buddies to show up. Worked then.
Almost need to start over with a less expensive product and work it like the original system in my opinion.
Motorcades and club and factory stores to fix the rigs on the road worked before....
Bob
You were posting as I was typing it seems.
I think FT is using the refurbish strategy today through FT of Texas, but without the capital requirement. They are selling a lot of consignment coaches, then updating them with paint and interior redesign.
I thought George and Michelle, maybe anny....I forget all the posts...made points that I had been thinking so I liked those. There is another option.
I had been told a price you might be able to buy FOT. If it were true. And you could do some local mergers and construct a team and combine with a nice RV park, I wonder if you could not build an enterprise that would do much if not all of what many said in this thread. It would be fun to explain in a private dialogue which I guess, would be more proper than herein.
Bet you can think of the options I have been playing with! Wish I had some folks with business models to think on it. After all, it must make money...it cannot be financed or built just because I or you are enthused about these machines and the travel!
Hope all are well, Mike
Can someone tell me the difference between say a 2000 U320 chassis and the new Foretravel chassis.
So here is my 2ยข worth. If you are like me and own a 2001, 36 ft U320 with one slide, which fits our needs very well, I see no upgrade path when this coach is 15 years old to one that is about 10 years old.
I am willing to put paint, upgrades, remodels and whatever it takes to keep this one looking and functioning well. A 38' or 40' tag might make sense but I'm not sure I like the two slide choices. Our 36' gets us into a lot of places that a longer coach just wouldn't fit or would be harder to maneuver. And what would be available for 2006 or newer would be taller, weigh 10-12,000 lbs more and have a lower HP/weight ratio.
Maybe it is just us but we prefer the warmth of cherry wood and the softer look and feel of fabrics compared to the high gloss, hard surfaces we have seen in so many new and newer FT coaches.
At the rate we are adding miles we will be hard pressed to get to 170k by the time we have owned it for 10 years (2021 and we will be nearing mid 70s). Maybe we will get by with what we have.
Roger
We left Nac today, but got this pic on the way out. What a difference 10 years makes!
Wow! That IH45 makes your coach look small. It is hard to imagine getting that big of a coach into some of the small State Parks we like to visit. But then most folks are sure our U320 would never make it through the winding roads and into smaller camp sites that it does.
Thanks for the contrasting view.
Roger
Rodger, as an owner of an IH45, we would not consider state parks as an option to stay in. Since many of these parks are more suited for smaller RVs, the would not be a choice for us. There are so many more private RV parks to enjoy as well as some parks that offer more amenities. We stay at one park that includes a private airport so my love can fly his plane here for the two months we stay.
I much prefer the look of "old".
Our recreational preferences requires that Forrest get into some pretty tight spots. So for the remainder we'll keep him. But if we ever have a few hundred coach bucks laying around with nothing to do we would buy a house on Manasota Key, FL. :dance:
Hey Anny, We just got back from a two week stay in MN State Parks on the North Shore of Lake Superior. Temperance River SP would have had no trouble with an IH45. Paved roads and electric hookups. We faced out over the lake and enjoyed warm and sunny Fall days. Gooseberry Falls SP would have been a challenge for a 45 but we fit just fine. Everyone enjoys what they like. Our 36' FT keeps us out of many places we used to get into with our earlier, smaller RV.
An RV park with an airport. Pretty cool. Combine both with a visit to the EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh, WI. Last week in July. Airplane and RV heaven. Full hookups, thousands of airplanes and the best folks of both transportation modes.
Nice to hear your perspectives in the ForeForums, Anny. Thanks for joining in.
Roger
Both look great.. and there are buyers for each...
As a new member looking at the possibility of owning a FT in the future (Currently own a nice 2010 Tiffin DP) and going to the factory next week, this thread has been very interesting.
Michelle makes a good point when she brings up "future generations". My wife and I still work (and actually use our 30% of the time for that). Here is my observation on future Generations of owners.
We have purchased two coaches in the last 18 months, been to FMCA rally's etc.
What we have noticed is that (and I am generalizing from my personal observations) is that RV ownership is an aging consumer/owner. Having said that, we have noticed at our last purchase this May, we met many new owners who are 50 or under some of whom were full timers. Now I understand this is rare, but the new ownership profile was interesting. We started seeing more and more younger owners in the places we go and not all of them are driving 10 year old coaches.
We also notice that many coach brands are incorporating bunk models even in DP and not just for Grandparents.
What is the new generation looking for. My best guess is..... more experiences away from the humdrum of everyday life and work, more together family experiences, not saving travel for the latter years etc.
I am often concerned when I see neighbor travelers whose physical condition makes me wonder how safe it is for them behind the wheel no less setting up and closing down their coaches.
I also think that when you see the interiors and options of newer coaches, perhaps those interiors are done to attract the newer buyer.
Now I also understand that financially the mature couple could have built there "fortunes" and may be in more of a position to spend the money it costs....."owning an RV is not for sissy's but after seeing these younger new buyers, they have seem to have the luxury of better incomes and the choice of doing it instead of waiting till later.
And finally, my own Mother and Dad always (for years) said they wanted to own an RV and travel the country when they retired. My Dad is long gone and my Mom is late 80s. They never realized their dream because "life", 4 kids and alternate finances got in the way. Now Mom lives vicariously through us.
The economy and financial markets will always go through cycles. I agree with one poster who suggests a company should look 10 years down the road and should decide who they want their market to be. I am not suggesting that the 40 to 50 something is their market, but better chance that it could be their future.
We like our 36 fter. It gets us where we want to go with little or no problems. We enjoy the windy roads and the hills and the slower pace. I find that if the road has lots of turns and hills I don't have to stir the sugar in my coffee.
I have already trimmed a few trees with my U320's antennae. Taking a IH45 down some of the roads I go on would be impossible because of the height. I think that extending the range downward would be a good idea in order to get the high/middle range of buyers into the process for the factory as they are now buying used.
Keith
Twenty years go it was possible - even likely - that a worker would retire at age 55. Exxon, and many other corporations, had "early retirement" programs actively encouraging workers to retire early; often with full benefits. My wife's parents both retired at 55; first one, and then the other. And they bought RVs and traveled the country in them (sometimes with our kids). When my wife first saw me I was in a truck camper and she was with her parents in their first Class A (a Champion). When she met me a couple of years later she knew that I was an RVer and camper and I don't think that hurt our budding relationship.
Many of those company retirement programs are gone now and many more have been degraded. Today's working stiff will be lucky to retire at age 67 with full Social Security and maybe a few bucks in an IRA or 401K account. But the days of retiring at 55 are gone; at least for now.
Still, there are lots of people who are making quite a nice bit of money in their paychecks. My son-in-law had a $300,000 a year salary at his last place and is now out on his own consulting. He's not making as much money right now but he has some potential to make a great deal more as he works on some patentable ideas in his home office.
Those high-paying professionals - not just wall street bankers - are part of a big future wave of buyers. Our grandkids RV with their parents in a diesel powered Ford pickup with a DVD player for each of them (no fighting about whose movie they watch) and sleep in bunkbeds (also with DVD players) in the travel trailer the Ford pulls. They have a "camping lot" near Seattle that they visit every month or two for a long weekend (often while daddy goes to meetings with his clients). They don't want - or need - a motorhome in the near future... but they see us with ours and while their TT has the occasional luxury (a big queen bed and a huge dinette) the overall picture is much more spartan than ours.
They RV a lot and they see flaws in their $20,000 travel trailer they bought brand new 4 years ago and they have compared it to our 20-year-old RV that still looks new inside. At some point they're going to want a quality motor home. Maybe not in 10 years or even 20 (they're mid-30s now) but even if they're not quite ready, there are others who are. I see a good future for FT. I'm not sure they need to sell to all facets of the market. Barring another "great recession" I think they'll do fine.
Craig