Is this a viable procedure?
I've read a lot in the archives about winterizing our coach for the Michigan winters from which the accepted procedure is accessing the 12V water pump and sucking in pink RV antifreeze throughout the system. Some folks on the forum have said accessing the pump is a time consuming but necessary procedure. So here's my idea...we have a small sump pump which is used for draining a small hot tub among other uses. It has regular hose fittings and could be hooked to the water fill hose in the water bay. Place the sump into a container with 10 gal of antifreeze and pump into the fresh water tank using the fill valve. Then use 12V pump throughout the coach being sure every all faucet and other lines are running pink. This also would insure all traps and tanks would be safe.
Do you think this would work? Any words of wisdom (short of moving south for 4 months)?
If you have a hot water heater by-pass this will work with about 6 gallons of anti freeze. I rigged up permanent tubing with a two way valve from the pump to a more easily accessible point to suck in the anti freeze. I need about 4 gallons includes Splendide and all appliances/faucets and outside spigot in the utility bay. Coach is in storage otherwise I'd include a couple snap shots. The modification of the tubing took about a couple hous with trip to Lowes and having to reposition the pump to accept the two way valve at the pump.
Your procedure will work but you then have the issue of flushing all the antifreeze out of the fresh water tank when you dewinterize. Installing something like a Camco winterizing valve at the pump is a one-time deal that makes it easy to pump the antifreeze throughout the system. Here is a picture of the one I installed.
I think Monti's idea is the best. It is exactly what my SOB (a Tiffin) had - it worked very well.
The good thing about not using the Camco bypass valve (or another brand) is that by taking the water line off of the pump one has a good opportunity to check the filter for crud. If it gets clogged up your water pressure goes down or the flow goes to nothing. Even if you put on a bypass valve you should check the filter screen at least once a year anyway.
I don't like getting antifreeze in the main tank. I make sure all the lines are full of antifreeze and that the pink stuff comes out of all drain valve before they are closed as well as all of the faucets, both hot and cold, (don't forget the water faucet in the service bay), the drinking water faucet and the toilet. Make sure you get a couple cups of antifreeze in the drain traps. Don't forget to take out the water filter cartridge and put in the bypass plug.
Make sure the waste tanks are empty before you start. A bit of antifreeze from the toilet and drains will get into each of them.
I leave the main tank drain valve open with a drain pan under it.
The first time is sort of intimidating but sone right you will be problem free when you get going in the spring. Flushing everything out is pretty easy, just run water until the pink foamy look is gone.
Roger
Thanks everyone for your input. I'll look into a by-pass valve and make a note of checking the filter each fall. Now I'll need to locate the 12V pump and hopefully make it easy to access each and every year.
You might also need to remove the under the sink filter and put in the plug that they make for it, (assuming you have a similar setup to what I have.) Also, I don't have the water heater bypass so I put a valve on the drain and re-capture that 10 gallons of anti-freeze for re-use.
I just need to ask: Why do you prefer to fill the sys. with antifreeze in lieu of blowing everything down with air? I've never done the antifreeze thing and I'm just wondering if it is a better way. Thank you and have a great day ---- Fritz
For me it's the only way I can guarantee that the Splendide and the toilet are free of water in the lines.
I also ask the same question as this will be my firsy winter home in 14 yrs and I will be blowing out the lines etc etc and putting antifreeze in all drains and some in tanks. I will keep a small ceramic heater in the coach, and am considering now that I have this pit that placing a tarp around the whole lower part to touch the cement and with the RV cover over the whole rig and a ceramic heater in the pit, that may just be the ticket to keep it above zero???
John H
Using the potable antifreeze for winterizing is also required for those of us who have AquaHot. Since Bill and Jan have a U320 I'm guessing they have an AquaHot, so the compressed air or a water heater bypass isn't likely to be appropriate.
John,
I think you'd be better off winterizing all the lines in your neck of the woods. We're talking very hard freeze at those temperatures. lso you'll be using mega BTU's with the heater(s) and may not keep it above freezing inside the coach and the utility compartments. Also do not forget to exercise the coach every 30 to 40 days. This will be a pain with an RV cover.
There are many stories in the archives of owners who thought they blew out all the lines, only to incur costly repairs in the following spring.
You can remove the water heater lines at the top of the manifold and tie the manifold together with a 1/2"x1/2" FIP faucet connector. Same result and about $5.00 verses the cost of a by-pass kit and much easier to install.
water heater by-pass (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15884.msg99452#msg99452)
D&D
Sure seem easier to move south for four months.
Oh, it's not so difficult. Like so many things, the first time takes some extra time but after that it is an hour or so to get it done. After you get all the water tank and lines drained, of course. Its a lovely day in MN for me to get this done today. Sunny with big puffy clouds, 50's. Mid 30's over night, 40's and rain tomorrow. Good day to get on with it.
Contrary to what many think, life is good here, even in the winter.
Added ....
Don't forget to hook up an air hose to the city water hose at low pressure 20-30psi. Thin will clear out any left over water in any lines.
Roger
I keep the engine block heater on in the winter. That thing heats the entire back 1/2 of the coach!!!
I also put a small (200-watt) electric heater in the storage bay adjacent to the holding tanks and plugged into a socket that does not turn on until the temp is 32F. This gives me a little peace of mind knowing that any liquid left in the holding tanks is heated up when the temp drops.
I also keep an oil-filled radiator type heater going on low in the salon, with cupboards open and access to the top of the water tank (on our coach it's under the doghouse between the pilot and co-pilot seats.
Right now the water heater is on (propane) because I'm working on things at the shop and it's where I wash my hands. I have turned it off in the past (and drained it) but done nothing about the water lines over the winter.
Temps do get below freezing here but generally stay in the upper 20s and rarely get below 20F here and over the past two winters we have had zero issues with cold using this method. I do have a full cover and will put that on if weather folks predict the temps will plunge. Ten years ago the lake in front of my house froze over (shore-to-shore) by November 15 and didn't thaw until March 15. Last year it was after Dec 15 when it froze shore-to-shore and it was thawed by the first week in February. I don't expect much change in that.
I will fill the fresh water tank completely to make a heat sink making it harder to freeze solid.
Craig
Craig
I still strongly recommend to folks that live where hard freezes occur to winterize with RV anti freeze. The electrical means of keeping the coach from freezing is fine unless you have a power failure and you don't catch it fast enough. Also if you do not have electrical available where you store the coach, as I, there is no other choice.
BTW, you can't blow out all the water from a toilet or Splendide. I have not found a means to do so. If you have, please share with the group.
Peter,
I totally agree. I would never depend on external heat to protect my coach. I use 5-6 gallons of antifreeze once I am sure the lines are clear. Suck it up with the pump till it comes out of the drain lines, then the service faucet, then flush the toilet till it runs pink, then the bathroom faucet, the shower and finally the kitchen sink and drinking water faucet (be sure to remove the filter and put in the diverter valve. Everything needs to run pink or whatever color you use. At least 2 cups in each drain.
There should be no water left in the fresh water tank so I leave the tank drain open with a drip pan under it. Even a little dribble of water left can freeze up the valve. The waste tanks should have been emptied and some anitfreeze will have run into them from the drains and the toilet. That is OK. Assuming your slide valves are good, I leave the drain cap off as well with a short drain hose. A drip pan is a good idea. My coach is in the barn. If it were outside I would skip the drain pans.
I'm not a fan of leaving heat on in the coach over the winter by any means. If it is all cold then there shouldn't be any condensation issues.
I look for a nice stretch of weather about once a month and turn on the engine preheat a couple days before I take it out for a drive. I run the generator, the aquahot and the AC and drive for 25 miles or more.
So far this has worked well for me. Evev when we leave in the middle of the winter for somewhere warmer flushing everything out only takes an hour or so.
I use "Mouse Magic" for mice and other critters and pests as well as some plug in ultrasonic things. The Mouse Magic is small bags with a granular peppermint smelling stuff. So far no winter visitors.
Roger
Yes. Do not forget to include the utility bay faucet and the water inlet valve for those coaches w/o a hose reel. There're is a check valve on these models that needs to be bled. I do not have a hose reel so I've never had to get the water out of these.
Roger; (or anyone else)
What do you use for a pump?
I use the coach water pump with a Winterizing valve at the suction side to introduce the RV anti freeze to the lines, etc.
Is access to the water pump behind the panel in the water bay with the outside faucet? If so, this may be the time to repair/replace the grey and black sewage gate valves.
Water pump on our 1997 is passenger side in the bay with the water heater, accumulator tank, and fresh water drain valves. It's relatively accessible without having to remove any panels.
I quite agree with this except for people who, like us, use our coach regularly in the winter for ski trips into the mountains. Our coach is parked a block away and plugged into a 50-a circuit that operates off the same PUD connections as our house. We don't get power failures here very often because we're a desert and there really aren't many trees to ice up and take the power out. In fact, our biggest problem with power is drunk drivers running into power poles and knocking them down. Seriously!
If power went out at the coach it would also be out here at the house and if it went on for more than an hour we'd be staying in the coach with the generator running and the heat on. :D
Craig
OK, so what I did for an hour today was dissconnect all the lines to the Manibloc (one by one) and opened the respective tap etc and blew air thru' that line. I had previously drained all the low points except the hose reel so that was also done. The one going to toilet I had Ruthie put het foot on the pedal while I blew that line out, so, all empty now and do not see any reason why I will have freezing pipes.
One of my neighbours is a Sprinkler installer etc and I spoke to him about it (he also has a Diesel Pusher but one of those Newmar things!!!) and Dan said he would never put that RV Anti freeze in anything as It is crap!! He blows his out and never has had any problem.
I used to do this on my Class D and C many years ago and also did not have a problem. I do not have Aquahot.
John H
John, if you are absolutely sure you get all of the water out then you might get by without a water system antifreeze. The PEX tubing is more forgiving than copper line ao it can stand a bit of freezing water left it. It is the valves, the pump, the faucets, the toilet and everything else that would be enormously difficult and expensive to repair or replace that a few gallons of antifreeze protects. You are going to fill the water tank at least part way to flush and sanitize everything anyway so 20 gallons or so run through everything twice will flush everything out. It takes very little frozen water in a faucet valve for example to make it leak in the spring.
This has worked for me for 35 years with various RVs.
Of course it can get really cold here in Minnesota.
Roger
Roger, there is no water left in those items, and I leave them open all the time when parked so if a droplet freezes it will be in a line not in a faucet etc. If I am not mistaken a line to freeze has to have a lot of water in it (or a low spot) but water expands in a linear way as well and if it has space to do that as in a low spot then it will not expand justwidth wise (so to speak). I am very sure all is well.
John h
I'm a little hazy on just how to get antifreeze into my fresh water tank so it can be pumped around the coach. As far as I can tell, it's not easy to just pour the stuff in.
Craig
Craig, that is one place I would not want it to go!!
If you are going the RV Antifreeze route disconnect the line from tank to pump and use a line from the container to pump and suck straight from it. I would definitly keep that tank clear and empty and drain open, what can happen to it then?
John H
Craig, just like John said. Isconnect the water line ate the filter side of the pump, (no tools required on mine), hook up a short 1/2" oer 3/8" line with the correct firting to the pump and put in a bucket with at least a couple gallons of antifreeze. It takes about a gallon to fill the pressure tank. You should not get any into the fresh water tank doing it this way.
John, I use compressed air at 30-40 psi connected to the city water hose. I open the tank fill solenoid and then the tank drain valve till nothing but air comes out, close it and then each of the hot and cold line drain valves one at a time till nothing comes out but air and then each of the inside faucets one at a time, hot then cold till nothing but air. I am pretty sure there is nothing in there but air. Maybe 20 minutes.
When I pump antifreeze through the system and repeat the process in the order above till pink stuff comes out there is almost always a but of water that comes out first, especially in the bathroom sink. I don't know, I jaut play it safe, always have.
What ever works for you ... Go for it.
Roger
I winterized yesterday and it took me one hour: 45 minutes to drain the water tank (about 30 gals) and hot water heater (10 gals), and 15 minutes to:
1. Drain all water lines & tank. Remove water filters and cap these (Utility bay & kitchen ADC filter)
2. connect the suction hose & turn the Camco valve at the water pump inlet to suction position.
3. Turn the H/W Heater bi-pass valve
4. Insert the suction hose to a 5 gal pail full of 4 gals of anti freeze
5. Close all lines/faucets and turn water pump on until it shuts off
6. Start opening systems as follows: Utility bay faucet, shower, bath faucet, toilet, kitchen faucet & water filter spigot, Splendide.
As you can see, emptying the tanks takes the longest. During that waiting time I usually remove all groceries, spices, bottled water and any other provisions in the coach which may attract unwanted visitors during storage. In the meantime the genset gets some exercise and all other systems get their exercise after winterizing and a 30 mile drive, then to storage slip.
Peter,
What about the U-Line icemaker?
Even after close attention, I lost the fill valve twice.
Neal
Forrest doesn't have a U Line. We use that space for groceries storage.
Edit: does U Line or Foretravel have a Winterizing guide/procedure?
Turn off the pump.
Drain and bypass the water heater.
Drain the fresh water, gray and black tanks.
Blow the lines out with compressed air.
Turn on the pump.
Pump in the pink stuff at via the brass Camco adapter.
Turn off the pump.
Blow out the pink stuff with compressed air.
Set the water heater bypass back to normal.
Come springtime, just fill with fresh water, turn on the pump and head out on your next adventure.
When I blow everything down with air, I flush the toilet until air blows freely and the spurting stops. I also blow out the wand flush hose and lay it down so that any residual will flow to the spray head. When I put antifreeze in the black tank, I pour it into the toilet and then flush it so that the ball valve is covered with a little antifreeze. I also leave the drains open and mid-position all valves. A key thing for me is to make sure that the air pressure is 30 to 40 pounds so that you get a good blow to cary out the water. I have disconnected the water line to the ice maker and have it plugged off and coiled. I just loosen the plug and blow that little line down good. Well, so far it works for me. thanks and have a great day ---- Fritz
Blowing air through the lines seems to work for some people, but the most sure method is to blow air through the lines and then add RV antifreeze at the pump. (For Aqua-Hot owners the antifreeze method is required.) It only takes five gallons or so to winterize, and it's really pretty inexpensive insurance.
I place cube heaters in the plumbing bays, fill water up, turn furnace temperature to 6o degrees, open all cabinet doors with plumbing, plug into 50amp service, and have a 250 gallon propane tank plumbed into the coach. In that way I can leave for warmer places on the drop of a hat.
Peter ... and anyone else interested ...
I found this somewhere a couple years ago. A Foretravel specific winterizing guide. I think the author is Joseph Alford.
Roger
Excellent resource! Thanks for posting.
Thanks a bunch Roger. Nice to see pictures and FT specific instructions. Only thing better would be to watch YouTube videos of the procedure.
We hope to store our U320 w/ aqua-hot in an enclosed pole barn with access to power. I'll winterize for the insurance of mind it brings but will also have the heat on at about 55*. Also considering running an exhaust line outside for the diesel mode.
Good Morning Folks:
After reading the FT winterizing procedure posted by Roger I have a question, hopefully someone will be able to answer.
I see one of the steps is to drain the air system. Should the coach be level? If so that means the air system is in use, so, if I am correct if I drain the air system the leveling system will be deactivated. This tells me that leveling is not needed while in storage, is that correct? I am new to this air system thing.
On driving the coach during storage, I really do not want to do that here. Reason, salt is used extensively on the roads here. It is a mixture of about 40% salt and 60% sand. So when you drive, even on nice days that dust you pick up is loaded with salt. Not a good thing for our FT. So I have chosen not to drive it this winter, however I will run it in place at least once a month.
Please your thoughts on this.
Thanks
Norm
Roger,
Great find. I did not have this file. Thanks bunches as it makes crystal clear what folks should do for winterizing their Foretravels.
I have a removable plug in the side on my RV garage/barn near the generator and Aquahot exhaust pipes. If I want to run either one in the barn even with the doors open I use an exhaust hose like they use at service places. A hose clamp secures it to the exhaust pipe and it is long enough to stick out 5 or 6 ft from the barn. The 2" size is big enough.
The generator exhaust is not as hot as the Aquahot exhaust. From a cold start the Aquahot will heat the rubber hose up to the point that it starts to smell a bit but it hasn't melted it
Garage Exhaust Flare-Lok Rubber Duct Hose, Black, 2" ID, 11' Length: (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0053I8MIG/ref=biss_dp_t_asn)
As far as driving in the winter ... I hesitate to do it for the same reason as Norm. My coach lived the first 10 years of its life in CA. The owners told us it had never even been driven in rain! I swore I would never drive it in the snow but we got stuck in a snow storm last winter heading south. I wait until we have nice clear weather for a few days and the roads are clear and dry. Colder is better. I let the coach warm up for about 10-15 minutes and then I drive slowly and directly to the nearby highway and drive about 12 miles one way to an easy turn around at a truck stop and back. Everything is up to temp and has had a chance to move.
Lots of opinions one way or the other about idling to warm up in the winter without driving. Use the search tool to find them. If I get out three times I'm doing OK.
After I first got back from CA, I bought several cans of 3M spray-on undercoating. I checked bulkhead bolts, they seemed ok, and then sprayed the front and rear bulkhead joints as well as i could as well as the long round tube transmission fluid heat exchanger. Whenever I was the coach i hose off everything underneath as well as I can especially the wheel wells. I have been respraying with undercoating in the fall before storage.
Norm,
I think what you are asking about is draining the water trap in the air system. On my coach it is underneath the side of the coach on the driver's side near the rear wheels.. There is a label on the bottom side of the coach. Reach underneath and you will find a small valve that you can open. If there is any water there it will come out. When it is just air you can close it. Usually just a few seconds is enough.
Roger
Thanks Roger,:
I have been busy this last few days and just read your reply. Will do that today, temp this morning was 22. Yesterday had the oil changed and lubed so I will be ready go in the spring.
I have to store outdoors so I had a gravel and sand pad put down. I plan on laying a tarp down on the pad and on top of that I will put 2x12 hemlock boards down and drive onto them getting to tires totally off the ground. I also have a cover to put on once everything else is complete.
The winters up here in Maine can be pretty rough, hopefully I have everything done correctly. I think I will know how well I did in the spring. The coldest it has been since we moved here 9 years ago was 29 below. That was cold.
Norm
Reading through this thread with much interest. I noticed one member mentioned leaving the block heater on for extended periods of time. Any downside to this? Any chance of harming the heater element or causing problems with the engine?
Sorry, but that is just wrong! Glad someone does their civic duty and lives in all those cold places.
One downside would be the cost of electricity. Nothing in the engine should suffer from even very cold temperatures if the coach is parked. It would be a good practice for an emergency vehicle or backup generator. I don't understand why one would leave the block heater on for an RV in storage. (There is a lot in this world that I don't understand! :P )
They can short out and cause a fire. Had a friend who lost a GMC 3/4 ton truck to a shorted block heater.
Roland
It s not energy conscious to leave an engine block heater on in winter storage. Heck, I put the hot water heater in the bricks and sticks on vacation mode when we leave even for a long weekend. Same with the HVAC System.
Block heaters work well IF they use a thermostat, on most of our generators we spec the thermostat on @ 80 off @ 100 F. and 1000 watt. The standard used on most of our Foretravel Cummins are 1500 watt and NO thermostat, so they need tending to/pay attention to.
Since I keep my buggy in a heated garage, I seldom need to prewarm the block and if it is needed, I use the Aqua Hot when out in the cruel world if needed.
I turned on the block heater before a monthly exercise drive just before leaving for a two week overseas vacation. You guessed it. Forgot to turn off the block heater. My electric bill was double the normal one for that month!
Winterized as suggested by the fine folks here on the forum. Blew out all lines first and then introduced potable RV antifreeze via 12v pump till the pink ran freely. I did have a time of it finding the pump as it is not as convenient/accessable on a 36' coach. In my search, I accessed the sewer gate valves behind the outside faucet and found another item not to be missed upon winterizing. The black tank flushing tube is situated on a downward loop and will hold water and freeze if not blown out. Plan on doing this tomorrow. FYI
Thanks again for all the help/suggestions. I'm always amazed at the willingnest to share on this site.
B&J
Bill ---- I always add about a gallon of RV antifreeze to the gray tank and the black tank just so there is antifreeze up against the drain valves. Some folks just leave them open with a catch tank under the outlet. For several reasons I dont do it that way. Depending on your configuration, more than a gallon may be good. Have a great day ---- Fritz