Title: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 07:33:19 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 07:33:19 pm
Haven't noticed this before - but the large slide is creaping/moving in. At first we heard a noise from the bladder rubbing against the slide exterior. I deflated the bladder and hit the extend button and the slide went out maybe 1". Turned the key off and the bladder inflated. We sat and listened again and we heard the same sound. The DW sitting on the couch said she felt the slide move a bit. I presume that there is a solenoid and check valve somewhere that may be leaking fluid back there by not holding the appropriate pressure. There does not appear to be any drips or puddles of hydraulic fluid in any of our bays.
I did a forum search and saw that Brad S. had a similar issue. I sent him a PM.
Thoughts?
I did a forum search and saw that Brad S. had a similar issue. I sent him a PM.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 08:39:15 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 08:39:15 pm
Found the attached file @ HWH. Guess we will visit FT for this one.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 04, 2013, 08:50:06 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 04, 2013, 08:50:06 pm
By now, you have my verbose PM (sorry) and the two HWH documents.
And that document is actually http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml42737.pdf (http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml42737.pdf) When Joe sent it to me, he used another nomenclature with a period in the middle...but it is searchable on their website.
And that document is actually http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml42737.pdf (http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml42737.pdf) When Joe sent it to me, he used another nomenclature with a period in the middle...but it is searchable on their website.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 09:30:49 pm
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 09:30:49 pm
We should have a separate forum for 02 slide issues.
Your coach is 14 newer than ours. I have an appointment at HWH Monday morning if the weather doesn't keep me from going. I don't like being away from home in single digit weather but don't have much choice. We have made three trips to Nach and still have issues.
There was a grey (best I remember) coach next to us last summer at FOT with a slide creep issue. Don't remember the year. He was heading from there to HWH because FOT couldn't figure it out. I think he was a forum member and there was a post about it. Seems like it was a U320 tag.
Good luck with it. Keep us posted.
Your coach is 14 newer than ours. I have an appointment at HWH Monday morning if the weather doesn't keep me from going. I don't like being away from home in single digit weather but don't have much choice. We have made three trips to Nach and still have issues.
There was a grey (best I remember) coach next to us last summer at FOT with a slide creep issue. Don't remember the year. He was heading from there to HWH because FOT couldn't figure it out. I think he was a forum member and there was a post about it. Seems like it was a U320 tag.
Good luck with it. Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 04, 2013, 09:34:59 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 04, 2013, 09:34:59 pm
Yup. Us 2002 owners could fill a forum all by ourselves. The endcap issues are pretty much behind us, but our current bane seems to be the "train" slide system. Please do share anything you learn for those of us too far from Iowa!!!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 09:38:47 pm
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 09:38:47 pm
I will buy you a plane ticket to Oklahoma and you can take it instead of me. Think of it as an educational experience.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 09:49:15 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 09:49:15 pm
Brad - Thanks for the link - Same one I found on the HWH web site. I must admit that your story is NOT encouraging. Verbose - I think not - informative - yes.
Johnston's - Thanks for your input. Your story is NOT encouraging either.
Iowa is a long way from Houston.
I will call Drew at FT tomorrow and ask him his success rate in curing the "2002 Slide Creep" issue.
Thanks
Johnston's - Thanks for your input. Your story is NOT encouraging either.
Iowa is a long way from Houston.
I will call Drew at FT tomorrow and ask him his success rate in curing the "2002 Slide Creep" issue.
Thanks
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 04, 2013, 10:13:10 pm
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 04, 2013, 10:13:10 pm
Scott,
It sounds like your slide locks, may not be engaging the holes. That could be caused by the Hall effect sensors on top the slide not being aligned - or maybe that doesn't apply when the slide is out. Do you have any HWH control panel lights remaining on? Is the transmission in lock-out; flashing when you run the engine and try to shift into gear?
Jim 2002 U320
It sounds like your slide locks, may not be engaging the holes. That could be caused by the Hall effect sensors on top the slide not being aligned - or maybe that doesn't apply when the slide is out. Do you have any HWH control panel lights remaining on? Is the transmission in lock-out; flashing when you run the engine and try to shift into gear?
Jim 2002 U320
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 10:16:49 pm
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 10:16:49 pm
Wish i could remember who had that trouble last summer. It would have been first couple of weeks in July. I may search posts and see if something rings a bell.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 10:35:31 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 04, 2013, 10:35:31 pm
Jim - Thanks for the thoughts. I believe the slide lock pins only engage when the slide is in. Don't ask me how I know. I don't know if any HWH lights are on. If some were I do not know what they would mean. We have 2 stack control boxes. When the slide is in we have no issue getting into gear and moving.
I will specifically ask Drew tomorrow if they catalogue repairs/problems by year, part and model.
I will specifically ask Drew tomorrow if they catalogue repairs/problems by year, part and model.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 10:41:22 pm
Post by: Johnstons on December 04, 2013, 10:41:22 pm
Will sure be interested in what you find out. My friend here in town with an 02 U295 has not had problems with his.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 12:19:41 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 12:19:41 am
I believe the slide lock pins only engage when the slide is in. Don't ask me how I know.
Once I successfully use the HWH Isolation Kit, I'll keep everyone apprised about my creep issue. I wonder if all of our "creeps" are the same.... Mine is the rear, moreso on the bottom than the top.
Oh, and Joe Portelli of HWH also noted that yes, indeed, allowing the creep to just happen could cause the slide to pull the bladder out of position and tear it. I had been simply releasing the bladder and pushing the extend button...until Joe told me that could cause the slide to get out of synch, which is what my June 2013 problem was.
Basically, if you have slide creep, there are two choices: 1. Leave the slide in until the creep is resolved and fixed, or 2. Release the air bladder at intervals and then turn it back on (to eliminate any lateral stress from movement while the bladder was inflated, yet keep the seal). I'm choosing option 1 for now.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: txforetravel on December 05, 2013, 07:59:24 am
Post by: txforetravel on December 05, 2013, 07:59:24 am
Scott and Carol, we have coach 5955, just one coach from you on the newer side. Our 02 living room slide issue was resolved this summer. It was not slide creep, but computer related. HWH replaced the entire canister set and all is good. We have flushed the entire system and added new fluid. We did that when we had the slide seal replaced. FOT did that if I remember, although it could have been HWH. It almost sounds like low fluid or a slow leak someplace.
I worked with Randy at HWH and also with Joe. Both are excellent! And I'm a pro at changing out computer canisters now! Got it down to 5 min on removal and 10 min to install? FOT charges an hour for each!
I worked with Randy at HWH and also with Joe. Both are excellent! And I'm a pro at changing out computer canisters now! Got it down to 5 min on removal and 10 min to install? FOT charges an hour for each!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Dan Stansel on December 05, 2013, 08:25:07 am
Post by: Dan Stansel on December 05, 2013, 08:25:07 am
My coach is #6054 and there has been a few slide issues but mostly getting a squeak out when driving down the road. Had it out for about 10,000 miles but has come back somewhat at times.
Sounds like wood rubbing wood when it is there. Comes and goes. The slide has always operated properly in and out. When I first bought the coach MOT took the slide out and reworked all the gismos and reinstalled it. The rear slide moves in and out quickly and quietly. One of the things I like about the Foretravel is the air level with no jacks. I now have 99% of my air leaks repaired. How long that will last who knows. DAN
Sounds like wood rubbing wood when it is there. Comes and goes. The slide has always operated properly in and out. When I first bought the coach MOT took the slide out and reworked all the gismos and reinstalled it. The rear slide moves in and out quickly and quietly. One of the things I like about the Foretravel is the air level with no jacks. I now have 99% of my air leaks repaired. How long that will last who knows. DAN
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 05, 2013, 10:34:54 am
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 05, 2013, 10:34:54 am
Hi Dan,
My 2002 U320 has living room slide squeaks and I agree it often sounds like wood on wood - right behind the driver. It seems to come and go with temperature changes; worse until it warms up. Still chasing this one.
My other, higher pitched, squeak turned out to be the locking pin receiver (loose bolts) behind the upper cupboard, above the driver's head.
On a slightly related topic - be sure to check that the water drain tubes (in the slide wall) for the locking pin receivers are open (to the small openings on the bottom of the slide). I blow mine out with air once in a while. Also check to see that the fiberglass around the slide pin locking holes (outside, on top of the slide) are not cracked and leaking - as a clue, rain water accumulating inside the slide frame may end up on the coach floor.
Jim
My 2002 U320 has living room slide squeaks and I agree it often sounds like wood on wood - right behind the driver. It seems to come and go with temperature changes; worse until it warms up. Still chasing this one.
My other, higher pitched, squeak turned out to be the locking pin receiver (loose bolts) behind the upper cupboard, above the driver's head.
On a slightly related topic - be sure to check that the water drain tubes (in the slide wall) for the locking pin receivers are open (to the small openings on the bottom of the slide). I blow mine out with air once in a while. Also check to see that the fiberglass around the slide pin locking holes (outside, on top of the slide) are not cracked and leaking - as a clue, rain water accumulating inside the slide frame may end up on the coach floor.
Jim
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 05, 2013, 03:43:09 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 05, 2013, 03:43:09 pm
Drove up to FT this AM. Talked to James and Drew. Both were aware of the problem although could not comment on how often the repair has been reported or how successful the repairs had been. I was hopeful that the problem (slide creep) being identified had been recorded along with the repairs required in some sort of a data base at FT. Wishful thinking. It is interesting though that both were aware of the specific problem(s) and suggested leaking lower left cylinder, bad solenoid, check valve or maniforld. James also suggested I check the nuts at the end of the solenoid to assure that they are closed. James also suggested I exchange the questionable solenoid (extend) with one that is working - replace the "O" rings when doing this. If the slide creep continues - it is not the solenoid. I think I will try this. In looking at the lower left cylinder under our dinette I do not see any fluid leaking. James also said that the cylinders rarely malfunction.
At his juncture I will also contact Randy at HWH - was wonderfully helpful when I spoke with him previously - and get his thoughts. In the meantime, I will wait for Brad to complete his test and Rick's journey to HWH. I will be anxiously awaiting the results from both of you fine "gentlemen".
Tom & Bill - Your fix is also interesting and would like to chat with you regarding the details. Have not heard about the computer thingy before. Could we chat on the phone some time? If you might be available please advise date and phone # - PM me?
Brad - I will follow your plan 2 which is to allow the slide to creep in 1" or so and reinflate the bladder and see what happens. James advised that the slide creep is only about 1" to 1-1/2". Hopefully no water. If I get some leakage I will fall back to your plan 1 which is to leave the slide in until a "fix" is complete and successful.
Ain't life grand. :-)
At his juncture I will also contact Randy at HWH - was wonderfully helpful when I spoke with him previously - and get his thoughts. In the meantime, I will wait for Brad to complete his test and Rick's journey to HWH. I will be anxiously awaiting the results from both of you fine "gentlemen".
Tom & Bill - Your fix is also interesting and would like to chat with you regarding the details. Have not heard about the computer thingy before. Could we chat on the phone some time? If you might be available please advise date and phone # - PM me?
Brad - I will follow your plan 2 which is to allow the slide to creep in 1" or so and reinflate the bladder and see what happens. James advised that the slide creep is only about 1" to 1-1/2". Hopefully no water. If I get some leakage I will fall back to your plan 1 which is to leave the slide in until a "fix" is complete and successful.
Ain't life grand. :-)
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 04:10:49 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 04:10:49 pm
Are all the solenoids the same? I have learned that the front pair of extend/retract valves are for the locks, and the two towards the rear are the actual (front) slide valves. If they are interchangable, that would be helpful in the process.
I'm sorry to be dragging my feet on my testing, but my helper is extraordinarily busy and I have a bit of Christmas positioned in the way of opening the slide right now.
I certainly hope it isn't the cylinder.
I'm sorry to be dragging my feet on my testing, but my helper is extraordinarily busy and I have a bit of Christmas positioned in the way of opening the slide right now.
I certainly hope it isn't the cylinder.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 05, 2013, 04:47:40 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 05, 2013, 04:47:40 pm
Brad - I understand that all of the solenoids are interchangeable. On our manifold there are 3 sets of two. On mine the closest to the rear bulkhead are for the front slide, next towards the nose of the coach is the set for the rear slide and the set closest to the nose of the coach is for the locking pins. I thought I had posted the diagram somewhere here but can not find it so....
Rear of bay
Room 1 extend Room 1 retract Door side of bay
Room 2 extend Room 2 retract
Locking pin Locking pin
Nose of the coach
I have also attached a pic(I think) of my set up. I would guess that yours is the same. In looking at the pic - to the right of the motor and solenoids is the basement door. The solenoid closest is for the locking pins and the set furthest away, and hardest to get to is for the front slide.
Give me a call if you wish.
Rear of bay
Room 1 extend Room 1 retract Door side of bay
Room 2 extend Room 2 retract
Locking pin Locking pin
Nose of the coach
I have also attached a pic(I think) of my set up. I would guess that yours is the same. In looking at the pic - to the right of the motor and solenoids is the basement door. The solenoid closest is for the locking pins and the set furthest away, and hardest to get to is for the front slide.
Give me a call if you wish.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 05, 2013, 05:11:49 pm
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 05, 2013, 05:11:49 pm
Brad,
My understanding is all four (two above and two below) cylinders operate in extend and retract modes. The locks for the slide operate separately. It would seem you might have check valve(s) bi-passing/leaking and when the pressure is finally equalized, the slide quits moving when shut off.
Thinking air in the system might be a factor I presume you have checked the level of fluid in the reservoir. It needs to be 1" below the top when the slide either in or out depending, upon which letter-of-the-alphabet system design you have. That's my 2 cents.
Even though there is a time delay to get to talk to a tech, calling HWH might be your best resource. They might be faster to return a call in the dead of winter.
Jim
2002 U320
My understanding is all four (two above and two below) cylinders operate in extend and retract modes. The locks for the slide operate separately. It would seem you might have check valve(s) bi-passing/leaking and when the pressure is finally equalized, the slide quits moving when shut off.
Thinking air in the system might be a factor I presume you have checked the level of fluid in the reservoir. It needs to be 1" below the top when the slide either in or out depending, upon which letter-of-the-alphabet system design you have. That's my 2 cents.
Even though there is a time delay to get to talk to a tech, calling HWH might be your best resource. They might be faster to return a call in the dead of winter.
Jim
2002 U320
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: red tractor on December 05, 2013, 09:02:20 pm
Post by: red tractor on December 05, 2013, 09:02:20 pm
I don't think hwh will be much less busy now. 2 weeks ago I was in Omaha and wanted to move to Lincoln Ne which is about 50 miles. There was a threat of snow coming. I tried to get my slides to retract and no luck. Called hwh and was told it would be 2 weeks before I could get a call back. I told her that I could not wait that long as I could not move my coach, She said that she would have someone call me as soon as he was off the phone. Randy called me in about 10 minutes and he was able to talk me through the system and we got the slides retracted. It turned out to be the shut off valves to the vacuum solenoid manifolds were leaking so much that the compressor could not keep up. When I got to Lincoln I replaced the valves and now can make the slides work. I can not say enough good about hwh. While I was working I talked to Joe many times then there were more calls than he could handle and he was also doing some of the development and they added Randy and he is very good at helping. The solenoid valves are the same. Country Coach also used the train system and they were a real pain to work on also. I think that the kit Brad has is the way to go to find out what is leaking. Usually it is the solenoid valves. Under warranty we would always replace both the extend and the retract solenoid valves and that would fix it, but at the price for the valves, really need to know which to replace
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 09:15:25 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 09:15:25 pm
Scott: Yes, I have determined which is which, and you did send that info before. I traced down my hoses and am positive that the room is the rear two solenoid valves. Since I only have one slide, there are only a total of 4 cans on my manifold. How do they come off? Are they just screwed into the manifold? You said replace the o-rings (which must be present on the inside ends of the solenoid valves???). Do you know the size?
If running the isolation kit does shows a pressure leak increase on the guage, I'm sure a cheap "next test" would be to swap the lock extend valve with the identical room extend valve...but I don't want to take them off until I have the right supplies (O-rings) to reassemble them.
Jim: No air in the system, and the level is good (checked in the extend position on a 2002 with the "Train" system). I just have to get out there and install the shutoff valve they included with the kit and then run the room in and out a few times which will bleed off the air that I introduce when I place the valve inline.
Red: Thanks. Yes, Joe is responding as he can to my emails, and the onus is on me to do the testing now. I don't want to bug him yet and wear out my welcome with him. If the extend valve is the culprit, I'll swap the two and see if it is better. Then I'll know my culprit. I wish I had asked more questions of Luke at RnR so I'd know if they replaced the right one...and if it IS defective, well, it ought to be under warranty if I haven't waited too long.
If running the isolation kit does shows a pressure leak increase on the guage, I'm sure a cheap "next test" would be to swap the lock extend valve with the identical room extend valve...but I don't want to take them off until I have the right supplies (O-rings) to reassemble them.
Jim: No air in the system, and the level is good (checked in the extend position on a 2002 with the "Train" system). I just have to get out there and install the shutoff valve they included with the kit and then run the room in and out a few times which will bleed off the air that I introduce when I place the valve inline.
Red: Thanks. Yes, Joe is responding as he can to my emails, and the onus is on me to do the testing now. I don't want to bug him yet and wear out my welcome with him. If the extend valve is the culprit, I'll swap the two and see if it is better. Then I'll know my culprit. I wish I had asked more questions of Luke at RnR so I'd know if they replaced the right one...and if it IS defective, well, it ought to be under warranty if I haven't waited too long.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: red tractor on December 05, 2013, 09:24:24 pm
Post by: red tractor on December 05, 2013, 09:24:24 pm
I do not know what size the o rings are, but if there is a hydraulic shop close, take one solenoid out and take it to them to get new o rings. It won't leak more oil once the solenoid valve is removed. I think that your instructions will tell you how to release the pressure from the valves before removing, and yes they do screw out. The bleed screw can be turned with the fill hole cover or a 1/4 inch socket. If you have to put in more fluid try to get the hwh fluid as it does not have the red dye in it, which is important incase of a leak inside the coach
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 09:57:00 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 05, 2013, 09:57:00 pm
Found another interesting read on the HWH website: http://www.hwhcorp.com/HydraulicsandHWHSystems.pdf#page=5 (http://www.hwhcorp.com/HydraulicsandHWHSystems.pdf#page=5) Maybe I can pound something into my head about hydraulics. (For some reason, the link starts at page 5...when I changed it to page=1, it wouldn't display. Probably an Ubuntu issue...)
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 12:00:17 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 12:00:17 am
Brad - I got the "O" ring set at FT today. PN: RAP6554 - Name: O-RING KIT AIR SOLENOID. The kit comes with 2 sizes of "O" rings. 6 smaller diameter and 6 larger diameter. I think the smaller ones go on the solenoids not sure about the larger ones.
Red Tractor - Thanks for the input.
Red Tractor - Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 12:43:42 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 12:43:42 am
Brad - Just opened and read the link that you posted from HWH. Really quite interesting. I printed the file to PDF995 and ALL 33 pages were captured - so the previous 5 pages are there. This appears to be an HWH educational training text. Where did you get it? It is loaded with great stuff and a new language. I would love to snoop around there and see what else they have. Yea - I am a geeky kind a guy. :-D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Johnstons on December 06, 2013, 07:27:44 am
Post by: Johnstons on December 06, 2013, 07:27:44 am
Scott, RAP6554 is what they sold me to repair the air solonoids under the coach on the leveling system. I think they screw into a block similarly. After I realized I have to make a trip to HWH for the slide I figured I'd let them find my air leak too.
Hope you have the right part.
Hope you have the right part.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 07:53:20 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 07:53:20 am
Rick - Interesting re: PN RAP6554 is the part number for the "O" rings - cost: $12.00 +/-. I do not know where the solenoids are for the leveling system.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Michelle on December 06, 2013, 09:04:39 am
Post by: Michelle on December 06, 2013, 09:04:39 am
Rick - Interesting re: PN RAP6554 is the part number for the "O" rings - cost: $12.00 +/-.
As Rick mentions, RAP6554 is usually the 12 o-ring kit for the air leveling six-pack solenoids.
Actual o-ring sizes/numbers are here: Our leveling system problem (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12423.msg67934#msg67934)
Quote
I do not know where the solenoids are for the leveling system.
Here are some photos of the front air leveling six-pack - it's under the coach near the front axle, IIRC
It could be that the valves are the same, so RAP6554 would work (with some spares left behind). Here are some photos of the guts of the valve, and below the link, one of the photos showing the location of the o-rings: http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=310 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=310)
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:18:42 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:18:42 am
Here's the starting point for their education stuff: HWH Online Technical School (http://www.hwhcorp.com/onlineschool.html)
I really try to get some grasp of what I stick my fingers into when I don't feel competent. So the more I can read/anticipate/prevent damage the better!
I really try to get some grasp of what I stick my fingers into when I don't feel competent. So the more I can read/anticipate/prevent damage the better!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:31:24 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:31:24 am
Here is the page showing the replacement Solenoid that they put on mine, and the correct part as verified by Joe Portelli (RAP90729)...the one on the far right. These o-rings don't look the same as the RAP6554, as that kit seems to have a lot larger diameter on one of the two sizes of ring.
Can I take a solenoid off and leave the system alone for a while...without fluid pouring out?
oops: http://www.hwh.com/mr552000.pdf (http://www.hwh.com/mr552000.pdf)
Can I take a solenoid off and leave the system alone for a while...without fluid pouring out?
oops: http://www.hwh.com/mr552000.pdf (http://www.hwh.com/mr552000.pdf)
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:38:47 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:38:47 am
And here's another page showing the manifold and all the parts. It appears that the o-ring kit needed is R7430. http://www.hwh.com/mr558031.pdf (http://www.hwh.com/mr558031.pdf)
I ordered it to have on hand. The o-ring kit (8 sets) was $6.20 and they will ship it USPS, so I expect not a lot of shipping.
I just found their online price list....she may have mis-read the price, as it shows to be $16.20. FYI, the small solenoid valves R90729, are listed as $182.00. http://www.hwhcorp.com/pricelist73.pdf (http://www.hwhcorp.com/pricelist73.pdf)
I ordered it to have on hand. The o-ring kit (8 sets) was $6.20 and they will ship it USPS, so I expect not a lot of shipping.
I just found their online price list....she may have mis-read the price, as it shows to be $16.20. FYI, the small solenoid valves R90729, are listed as $182.00. http://www.hwhcorp.com/pricelist73.pdf (http://www.hwhcorp.com/pricelist73.pdf)
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 01:47:32 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 01:47:32 pm
Well....Looks as if the boys in the Parts Dept. at FT gave me the wrong "O" rings.
Brad - Thanks for the links, PNs and pricing.
I don't know if the solenoid can be pulled off without fluid escaping - I haven't gotten there yet. I seen to recall that if the slide is in the correct position there will not be any pressure in the lines so it can be removed.
I found the educational stuff on the HWH website this AM before the DW got up.
I will spend some more time there and probably go through the course work.
Are there check valves built into the solenoids or are they located someplace else?
There are so many documents on the HWH web site this it is difficult to determine what applies to what. In some documents they refer to the Spacesaving system and other places they refer to the Train.
Brad - Thanks for the links, PNs and pricing.
I don't know if the solenoid can be pulled off without fluid escaping - I haven't gotten there yet. I seen to recall that if the slide is in the correct position there will not be any pressure in the lines so it can be removed.
I found the educational stuff on the HWH website this AM before the DW got up.
I will spend some more time there and probably go through the course work.
Are there check valves built into the solenoids or are they located someplace else?
There are so many documents on the HWH web site this it is difficult to determine what applies to what. In some documents they refer to the Spacesaving system and other places they refer to the Train.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Roland Begin on December 06, 2013, 03:09:12 pm
Post by: Roland Begin on December 06, 2013, 03:09:12 pm
For $18 you can get an assortment of almost 500 O rings from TADA Nutty.com :P
Your "nutty" friend
Roland
Your "nutty" friend
Roland
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 04:16:01 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 04:16:01 pm
For $18 you can get an assortment of almost 500 O rings from TADA Nutty.com :P
Your "nutty" friend
Roland
Scott: I haven't gotten to look for where the check valves are yet.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Johnstons on December 06, 2013, 05:04:37 pm
Post by: Johnstons on December 06, 2013, 05:04:37 pm
If you open the nut on the end of the solonoids (don't turn too far or it comes apart) it relieves the pressure. I'm sure there is residual fluid that will drain from who knows where.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: red tractor on December 06, 2013, 08:33:49 pm
Post by: red tractor on December 06, 2013, 08:33:49 pm
Before removing any of the hydraulic solenoid valves the pressure must be relieved. When you turn the nut counterclockwise about 2-3 turns you should hear a hissing noise when the pressure is released. On the small round valves with the small nut to release pressure maximum turns out to release pressure is 4 turns be sure to mark the wires when you unplug the connector for the solenoid valve. When the valves are removed there will be only a small amount of fluid come out. Scott the o rings for the air solenoids are much larger than the o rings for the hydraulic solenoid.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 10:05:24 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 06, 2013, 10:05:24 pm
Than Red.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:54:23 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 06, 2013, 11:54:23 pm
Before removing any of the hydraulic solenoid valves the pressure must be relieved. When you turn the nut counterclockwise about 2-3 turns you should hear a hissing noise when the pressure is released. On the small round valves with the small nut to release pressure maximum turns out to release pressure is 4 turns be sure to mark the wires when you unplug the connector for the solenoid valve. When the valves are removed there will be only a small amount of fluid come out. Scott the o rings for the air solenoids are much larger than the o rings for the hydraulic solenoid.
With the spare o-rings available to me, IF the pressure test shows that it leaks past the solenoid, I plan on switching the lock extend solenoid with the room extend solenoid to see if that changes anything.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 07, 2013, 12:18:52 am
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 07, 2013, 12:18:52 am
Brad,
Not that our coaches are identical, but mine is type B where the slide is extended top check the hydraulic fluid. I don't know if this is important to remove a solenoid.
Not that our coaches are identical, but mine is type B where the slide is extended top check the hydraulic fluid. I don't know if this is important to remove a solenoid.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 07, 2013, 09:03:06 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 07, 2013, 09:03:06 am
Brad - I believe the Train slide system is the B type and therefore the slide should be in the extend position to perform the test and change the solenoids. I had attached the test procedure earlier in the thread but will attach it again. I think you already have it.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 07, 2013, 11:17:50 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 07, 2013, 11:17:50 am
Brad - I believe the Train slide system is the B type and therefore the slide should be in the extend position to perform the test and change the solenoids. I had attached the test procedure earlier in the thread but will attach it again. I think you already have it.
In re-reading the test procedure, there is another question that occurs to me: If the solenoid DOES leak and the pressure guage rises to 500psi+, now what? I *think* that unscrewing the nut 2-1/2 turns will release that pressure.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 07, 2013, 01:42:25 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 07, 2013, 01:42:25 pm
Brad I think you are correct. Good luck.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: red tractor on December 07, 2013, 10:16:35 pm
Post by: red tractor on December 07, 2013, 10:16:35 pm
It does not matter if the room is extended or retracted as far as needing to release the pressure. I have not read the procedure about testing so would go by what it says, but just remember to bleed off pressure before removing the solenoid valves
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 11, 2013, 10:38:25 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 11, 2013, 10:38:25 pm
Creep Test Status update. After leaving the slide alone and retracted since Joe Portelli (HWH) told me to do so in mid-November, I finally got to it today to set up the isolation kit.
When I extended the slide, it headed out wonky, just like before I went and had the cylinders synched. I got it mostly out, but it was done moving before it was fully extended. Insert several unpleasant cusswords here. Arghhh. So I retracted it. It came in just like the last time I had the problem...the pump shut off, but the slide was still about an inch out at the top. I cycled the bladder seal, then hit the retract button again. A little movement in, then the pump sort of "stuttered" a few times. Arghhh. I kept working at it and finally it went all the way in, but I did not hear the normal locking sounds. So I hit retract another time or two and eventually it sounded like the locks were in place. I started the coach (I had been meaning to move it forward about 6 inches anyway) just to make sure it would go in gear, which is my indicator that the locks were in place. All was well.
This time, since the coach is inside the garage, I decided to not be as fearful as I was before, and to just go ahead and try extending the slide again. Surprise. It went out fine. I brought it back in and extended it again. Fine. Just like it was after the $$$ re-synching in June after leaving it in for several years. I learned from this that my previous fear of extending the slide was likely unwarranted. Despite the fact that it wouldn't retract immediately all the way then, it eventually did go in. Same thing now. It wasn't that hard to "nurse" it back in by nudging it one direction or the other. I was surprised that it seemed to have straightened itself out, as I was always told NEVER to interrupt a cycle and reverse it.
I went ahead and installed the inline valve portion of the HWH Isolation kit. I really wasn't sure if I needed to do anything to the solenoid valves, so I did NOTHING to them. When I took the slide's hydraulic hose off the manifold, there was no pressure and only a small amount of fluid dripped onto the paper powel I had laid over the motor to catch it. That was a relief. I then cycled the room in and out 2 more times as Joe instructed me (to get any air out that I might have introduced with the valve insertion, I think). Slide moved in and out just fine.
At that point, I called my lovely assistant to help me. I extended the room with the opened valve in the line. It still went out fine, with the bottom lagging the top about an inch (it always has completed every extension with the bottom "finishing" the movement). While I was still holding the Extend button (altho the light had gone out), I had her close down the newly inserted valve per the instructions and then I released the extend button.
I went down to the manifold and disconnected the hose with the closed valve now on its end. I put the kit's plug in the end (I think that is just to ensure the valve doesn't leak or get opened accidentally) and connected the guage and hose portion of the kit to the manifold where the hose had been.
Now I must wait to see if any pressure reaches the guage and/or if the room creeps in. After about 2 hours, there is no pressure indicated on the guage and only the smallest of creep, if any. Stay tuned for tomorrow's results.
When I extended the slide, it headed out wonky, just like before I went and had the cylinders synched. I got it mostly out, but it was done moving before it was fully extended. Insert several unpleasant cusswords here. Arghhh. So I retracted it. It came in just like the last time I had the problem...the pump shut off, but the slide was still about an inch out at the top. I cycled the bladder seal, then hit the retract button again. A little movement in, then the pump sort of "stuttered" a few times. Arghhh. I kept working at it and finally it went all the way in, but I did not hear the normal locking sounds. So I hit retract another time or two and eventually it sounded like the locks were in place. I started the coach (I had been meaning to move it forward about 6 inches anyway) just to make sure it would go in gear, which is my indicator that the locks were in place. All was well.
This time, since the coach is inside the garage, I decided to not be as fearful as I was before, and to just go ahead and try extending the slide again. Surprise. It went out fine. I brought it back in and extended it again. Fine. Just like it was after the $$$ re-synching in June after leaving it in for several years. I learned from this that my previous fear of extending the slide was likely unwarranted. Despite the fact that it wouldn't retract immediately all the way then, it eventually did go in. Same thing now. It wasn't that hard to "nurse" it back in by nudging it one direction or the other. I was surprised that it seemed to have straightened itself out, as I was always told NEVER to interrupt a cycle and reverse it.
I went ahead and installed the inline valve portion of the HWH Isolation kit. I really wasn't sure if I needed to do anything to the solenoid valves, so I did NOTHING to them. When I took the slide's hydraulic hose off the manifold, there was no pressure and only a small amount of fluid dripped onto the paper powel I had laid over the motor to catch it. That was a relief. I then cycled the room in and out 2 more times as Joe instructed me (to get any air out that I might have introduced with the valve insertion, I think). Slide moved in and out just fine.
At that point, I called my lovely assistant to help me. I extended the room with the opened valve in the line. It still went out fine, with the bottom lagging the top about an inch (it always has completed every extension with the bottom "finishing" the movement). While I was still holding the Extend button (altho the light had gone out), I had her close down the newly inserted valve per the instructions and then I released the extend button.
I went down to the manifold and disconnected the hose with the closed valve now on its end. I put the kit's plug in the end (I think that is just to ensure the valve doesn't leak or get opened accidentally) and connected the guage and hose portion of the kit to the manifold where the hose had been.
Now I must wait to see if any pressure reaches the guage and/or if the room creeps in. After about 2 hours, there is no pressure indicated on the guage and only the smallest of creep, if any. Stay tuned for tomorrow's results.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 11, 2013, 11:32:33 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 11, 2013, 11:32:33 pm
Good Show Brad - I can feel your ARGHHHHHs from here. Sounds like you are getting through it. Looking forward to results tomorrow. Thanks so much for your excellent write up. When you get done we should chat. Sometimes I am not so good at reading stuff - better to read and talk. Of course I have my pretty bride here to keep me honest and help me to understand what the written words say.
I have been thinking about 2002 slide issue(s) and am wondering your thoughts about us (me) writing a summary and asking Barry B. to include it on his site???? Have you taken any pics of the kit set up?
Thanks again as you appear to be going where no fofum member has gone before. Definately not a final fronteer but an amazing accomplishiment nontheless..... :-D
Thanks again,
Scott
I have been thinking about 2002 slide issue(s) and am wondering your thoughts about us (me) writing a summary and asking Barry B. to include it on his site???? Have you taken any pics of the kit set up?
Thanks again as you appear to be going where no fofum member has gone before. Definately not a final fronteer but an amazing accomplishiment nontheless..... :-D
Thanks again,
Scott
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 12:31:17 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 12:31:17 am
I'm trying to understand just how it all works, mechanically and hydraulically. (Not tackling the electronics...whew!)
It still shows no pressure on the gauge (about 5 hours after hookup), but the lower part of the slide is already in about 1-1/2 fat fingers...likely just short of an inch. I didn't do anything to it yet and will see what the morning brings. I am, however, beginning my quest to learn how to remove the cylinders. I fear that I will also need to learn how to take the overhead cap off, as if a cylinder gets replaced or rebuilt, it looks like all 4 need to be bled and re-synchronized.
Thinking out loud, with our Train rooms, the 4 cylinders are all RETRACTED when the room has been extended. Thus there must be some pressure extending one or more of the cylinders to make the room creep inward. In my mind, that would seem to indicate that something else is "pushing" the cylinder open, rather than anything inside the cylinder allowing fluid to internally leak through it. A cylinder itself leaking/bleeding through would seem to indicate to me that the cylinder would then be RETRACTING...not expanding and pushing the rod out (thus retracting the room). So maybe this will turn out to be something like the Back Pressure Valve sending pressure and pushing one or more of the cylinders open. It seems to be located near the Synchronizing cylinder, something I have yet to find the physical location of. Maybe it is on top???
I need to learn how to get the header off anyway. The PO had Foretravel of TN add extra trim to it and I would just as soon remove it. Some was put on very sloppily and there are some broken screws. Winter in a garage is a good time to tackle all this stuff.
Picture below is the diagram showing the "Back Pressure Valve".
It still shows no pressure on the gauge (about 5 hours after hookup), but the lower part of the slide is already in about 1-1/2 fat fingers...likely just short of an inch. I didn't do anything to it yet and will see what the morning brings. I am, however, beginning my quest to learn how to remove the cylinders. I fear that I will also need to learn how to take the overhead cap off, as if a cylinder gets replaced or rebuilt, it looks like all 4 need to be bled and re-synchronized.
Thinking out loud, with our Train rooms, the 4 cylinders are all RETRACTED when the room has been extended. Thus there must be some pressure extending one or more of the cylinders to make the room creep inward. In my mind, that would seem to indicate that something else is "pushing" the cylinder open, rather than anything inside the cylinder allowing fluid to internally leak through it. A cylinder itself leaking/bleeding through would seem to indicate to me that the cylinder would then be RETRACTING...not expanding and pushing the rod out (thus retracting the room). So maybe this will turn out to be something like the Back Pressure Valve sending pressure and pushing one or more of the cylinders open. It seems to be located near the Synchronizing cylinder, something I have yet to find the physical location of. Maybe it is on top???
I need to learn how to get the header off anyway. The PO had Foretravel of TN add extra trim to it and I would just as soon remove it. Some was put on very sloppily and there are some broken screws. Winter in a garage is a good time to tackle all this stuff.
Picture below is the diagram showing the "Back Pressure Valve".
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 12:33:34 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 12:33:34 am
LOL. Yes, once this all gets resolved, maybe we can reduce it to facts learned from all our questions and tests, and then put a how-to-check-and-fix document together for 2002 Owners.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 09:17:39 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 09:17:39 am
I can do a draft, send to you for review, corrections and additions and then send to Barry.
Removing the header and leg unit/assembly is a two person job. One to remove the covers and screws and one to hold the header and legs in place. Our slide header cover was one piece that consists of the header and one verticle leg on each side of the slide. These legs are attached to the header with 3 to 5 screws. The header is held in place by 5 screws in the bottom of the header. They are covered by buttons that pull off exposing the snap and screw. There are also 4 to 6 screws in each leg on either side of the slide. The fabric on each verticle legs is held in place by velcrow. These verticle fabric covers pull off. 1st -remove the 4 to 6 screws in each verticle leg. The legs are attached to the header by 3 or 4 screws each and will remain in place until the header screws are removed. There are 5 fabric covered buttons under the header that must be removed to access the verticle screws that hold the header to the slide frame. Pull the buttons off and unscrew the snap screw that runs vertically from under the header. At this point there should be nothing holding the top horizontal cover and two side legs in place. Gently remove the unit starting with the top/header and pull out towards the sink applying outward and upward pressure to the assembly. This header assembly/unit must be supported as the two legs are attached to the header by 2 or 3 more screws each. The whole unit is awkward to move as the legs stay on the header. Once the assembly is pulled away from the slide structure we leaned it against the refer and counter top supporting each verticle leg and the header against the refer. I have removed the header many times and was able to remove it by myself one time but I did break one of the joynts holding the leg to the header. I was able to modify this assembly in to 3 seperate pieces that can now be removed easily. The removal still requires two people but the header is now seperate from the legs. It was nerve wracking the first couple of times but now is a piece of cake.
Removing the header and leg unit/assembly is a two person job. One to remove the covers and screws and one to hold the header and legs in place. Our slide header cover was one piece that consists of the header and one verticle leg on each side of the slide. These legs are attached to the header with 3 to 5 screws. The header is held in place by 5 screws in the bottom of the header. They are covered by buttons that pull off exposing the snap and screw. There are also 4 to 6 screws in each leg on either side of the slide. The fabric on each verticle legs is held in place by velcrow. These verticle fabric covers pull off. 1st -remove the 4 to 6 screws in each verticle leg. The legs are attached to the header by 3 or 4 screws each and will remain in place until the header screws are removed. There are 5 fabric covered buttons under the header that must be removed to access the verticle screws that hold the header to the slide frame. Pull the buttons off and unscrew the snap screw that runs vertically from under the header. At this point there should be nothing holding the top horizontal cover and two side legs in place. Gently remove the unit starting with the top/header and pull out towards the sink applying outward and upward pressure to the assembly. This header assembly/unit must be supported as the two legs are attached to the header by 2 or 3 more screws each. The whole unit is awkward to move as the legs stay on the header. Once the assembly is pulled away from the slide structure we leaned it against the refer and counter top supporting each verticle leg and the header against the refer. I have removed the header many times and was able to remove it by myself one time but I did break one of the joynts holding the leg to the header. I was able to modify this assembly in to 3 seperate pieces that can now be removed easily. The removal still requires two people but the header is now seperate from the legs. It was nerve wracking the first couple of times but now is a piece of cake.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 01:03:27 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 01:03:27 pm
Next:
This morning, after sitting about 20 hours, there is no indication of pressure on the guage, thus the solenoid does not leak.
The rear of the slide, about 2 ft from the floor, shows about 2-1/2 fingers of creep, and the front is a little less but more than yesterday. Next step will be to try to concisely give the info to Joe Portelli via email and see what he advises.
Meantime, I will attempt to see if I can follow your (Scott's) instructions and get the header off of the slide. One question, tho: Can I do this with the slide open or closed? Or must it be in a particular state? I hadn't realized that it was all one unit. Seems odd to me, so maybe I'll try to turn it into a 3-piece item when I replace it.
This morning, after sitting about 20 hours, there is no indication of pressure on the guage, thus the solenoid does not leak.
The rear of the slide, about 2 ft from the floor, shows about 2-1/2 fingers of creep, and the front is a little less but more than yesterday. Next step will be to try to concisely give the info to Joe Portelli via email and see what he advises.
Meantime, I will attempt to see if I can follow your (Scott's) instructions and get the header off of the slide. One question, tho: Can I do this with the slide open or closed? Or must it be in a particular state? I hadn't realized that it was all one unit. Seems odd to me, so maybe I'll try to turn it into a 3-piece item when I replace it.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 01:22:44 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 01:22:44 pm
Brad - The headder/leg assy can be removed with the slide either in or out. It is easier to remove the slide if the room is out as you have more room to manouver the header and leg assembly sout of the way.
It seemed odd to me that the assembly is one piece. Yours may be different. We did modify the assembly so now it is 3 pieces. the left leg, the header and the right leg.
It seemed odd to me that the assembly is one piece. Yours may be different. We did modify the assembly so now it is 3 pieces. the left leg, the header and the right leg.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: txforetravel on December 12, 2013, 01:23:41 pm
Post by: txforetravel on December 12, 2013, 01:23:41 pm
Brad, on our 2002 the header was three pieces, top and two sides. FOT removed ours when we had the slide bladder replaced and I watched. It took them no more than 5 min to remove the screws and take the header down.
Now, with that said, we have taken it down ourselves. A bit more than 5 min but it is a two person job but is not difficult to do.
We did it with the slide IN. Easer to get to the screws I believe!
Now, with that said, we have taken it down ourselves. A bit more than 5 min but it is a two person job but is not difficult to do.
We did it with the slide IN. Easer to get to the screws I believe!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 04:04:06 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 04:04:06 pm
Sent my emil to Joe and he responded very quickly by calling me!
He said the Back Pressure Valve would not be the culprit and says it is a room cylinder, and he suspects the lower rear one. He was going to study his drawings and then call/email me the next instructions. He said the creeping problem usually is a leaky solenoid valve, but we have eliminated that from being the issue, so next up is a leaky cylinder. He said I may end up getting a few fittings to isolate the cylinders one at a time, but we'd start on the lower rear. He told me to hold up on the header disassembly until we check out the lower cylinders first.
I told him there were a couple of others with similar issues and that I'd be sharing as we went along.
Can anyone here tell me how to expose the lower cylinders? I have found where they are located (under the forward dinette seat and at the rear of the couch), but all I see is the nuts on the end of the shafts?????
He said the Back Pressure Valve would not be the culprit and says it is a room cylinder, and he suspects the lower rear one. He was going to study his drawings and then call/email me the next instructions. He said the creeping problem usually is a leaky solenoid valve, but we have eliminated that from being the issue, so next up is a leaky cylinder. He said I may end up getting a few fittings to isolate the cylinders one at a time, but we'd start on the lower rear. He told me to hold up on the header disassembly until we check out the lower cylinders first.
I told him there were a couple of others with similar issues and that I'd be sharing as we went along.
Can anyone here tell me how to expose the lower cylinders? I have found where they are located (under the forward dinette seat and at the rear of the couch), but all I see is the nuts on the end of the shafts?????
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 04:36:28 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 04:36:28 pm
Brad - Under our dinette table ther is a 4" ledge covered by carpeting. Pull up on the carpeting flap and you will see the bottom left cylinder. I have not removed the drawer under our couch but believe it is the same there.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 04:50:22 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 04:50:22 pm
Brad - Under our dinette table ther is a 4" ledge covered by carpeting. Pull up on the carpeting flap and you will see the bottom left cylinder. I have not removed the drawer under our couch but believe it is the same there.
Thanks to your very good description of the mounting, I pulled off the velchro verticals. Boy, I'd hate to have Foretravel's Velchro bill. They seem to really love the stuff. I see that my rear screws are all messed up (some loose, one or 2 broken). When I get my helper back to take it down, I will re-engineer that to something more useful...like hangar bolts and either wingnuts or double nuts to put them in place. These crummy long and thin screws are not the solution, especially if the header has to be removed on ocassion.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 05:54:43 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 05:54:43 pm
Sorry, I can't offer a process to remove the clear plastic covers. I presumed, incorrectly I guess that they would just slide out......
I also had a couple of screws loose on the left leg that did not appear to be holding anything. After I separated the header and the legs I was no longer concerned about having 4 or 5 screws holding the rear verticle leg in place. 2 screws hold it in place now and it travels OK. I may re-anchor those screws sometime but not in the near future.
Good luck,
I also had a couple of screws loose on the left leg that did not appear to be holding anything. After I separated the header and the legs I was no longer concerned about having 4 or 5 screws holding the rear verticle leg in place. 2 screws hold it in place now and it travels OK. I may re-anchor those screws sometime but not in the near future.
Good luck,
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 07:08:16 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 07:08:16 pm
I got the header off. Now my wife made a chiropractic appointment for tomorrow. Foretravel of Tennessee folks are on my "doo-doo" list.
My header weighs 60 lbs! (Just the header top piece!) It's a trim piece, with no structural purpose that I can see. FOTenn added 16 lbs of extra trim wood to make it pretty, I guess, for the PO. When they did that, they put little trim pieces on the end that were 1/4" thick...making the header wider than it had been. There were 2 pieces of 1-1/2 x 2 x 3/4" SOFT Pine wood that were used to add 2 screws each in a meager attempt to hold the modified header to the verticals. Two screws one direction and two screws in the opposite. While they made it all come reasonably close in the front section (not a lot of exposed screw threads in the mess), the rear had 3 of the 4 screws so far apart that they were pulled out of the wood and one of the two pieces there were split. Only one screw was left to hold the rear mess together, so the rearmost header screw has been working itself out of the wood due to the stress placed on it.
As great as most Foretravel engineering generally is, every now and then you run across something like this. I am considering making a brand new header out of a much lighter product. I have already removed the extra wood they added, altho I might put the center piece back in. It most certainly will not go back like it was. End of rant.
My header weighs 60 lbs! (Just the header top piece!) It's a trim piece, with no structural purpose that I can see. FOTenn added 16 lbs of extra trim wood to make it pretty, I guess, for the PO. When they did that, they put little trim pieces on the end that were 1/4" thick...making the header wider than it had been. There were 2 pieces of 1-1/2 x 2 x 3/4" SOFT Pine wood that were used to add 2 screws each in a meager attempt to hold the modified header to the verticals. Two screws one direction and two screws in the opposite. While they made it all come reasonably close in the front section (not a lot of exposed screw threads in the mess), the rear had 3 of the 4 screws so far apart that they were pulled out of the wood and one of the two pieces there were split. Only one screw was left to hold the rear mess together, so the rearmost header screw has been working itself out of the wood due to the stress placed on it.
As great as most Foretravel engineering generally is, every now and then you run across something like this. I am considering making a brand new header out of a much lighter product. I have already removed the extra wood they added, altho I might put the center piece back in. It most certainly will not go back like it was. End of rant.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 07:53:03 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 12, 2013, 07:53:03 pm
Brad - My guess is that when the train slide was installed in the slide and the slide was moved into the coach the woodworkers looked at the structure and tried to create the best/most simple cover that they could devise. As a woodworker, cabinet and furniture maker I can imagine them sitting with a cup of coffee a smoke and trying to devise a way to cover the train and all of it's stuff. I think the design is pretty good until it has to come off and on again. Ours is built out of 3/4" plywood in an "L" configuration that is covered with 1/2" foam and then material. We are replacing the fabric material with a chocolate brown vinyl that will not show any water staining when some of that wet stuff enters the coach. Notice I said when as opposed to IF. We will also replace the fabric material on the legs.
Ain't life grand. :-)
Ain't life grand. :-)
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 10:05:32 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 12, 2013, 10:05:32 pm
Next Step:
Joe sent me a drawing to show me the placement of the cylinders and hoses. It says it is a confidential drawing , etc., so I won't attach it. But if you have the header off, the cylinder placement is obvious. Each cylinder has a T fitting and an elbow.
Joe's instruction is to: "Have the room all the way out and gain access to the bottom cylinders. You will see on the cylinders a T fitting and a 90 degree fitting that a hose hooks up to. Hit extend and hold it for about three to five seconds and then remove the hose on the 90 degree fitting on both lower cylinders and cap the fitting on the cylinder. Then let the room sit for however long it takes for this creep in and see if the cylinders start moving the room in on the bottom, or is it only one that starts moving the room in. If one or both do then we will have to replace those cylinders or have you send them in for repair. "
Joe wrote that assuming I would not yet have taken the header off. He said the ideal situation would be to cap all 4 cylinders for this test. I have to get caps for the cylinders before I do this.
I am still at a loss as to how to correctly remove the plastic that covers the cylinders. Anybody know? ??? ??? If nothing else, I'll take a razor blade to it and cut out a section that will let me access the fittings...but it sounds like I will be removing all of it for at least one cylinder.
Pictures of the header joint and the top cylinders attached.
Joe sent me a drawing to show me the placement of the cylinders and hoses. It says it is a confidential drawing , etc., so I won't attach it. But if you have the header off, the cylinder placement is obvious. Each cylinder has a T fitting and an elbow.
Joe's instruction is to: "Have the room all the way out and gain access to the bottom cylinders. You will see on the cylinders a T fitting and a 90 degree fitting that a hose hooks up to. Hit extend and hold it for about three to five seconds and then remove the hose on the 90 degree fitting on both lower cylinders and cap the fitting on the cylinder. Then let the room sit for however long it takes for this creep in and see if the cylinders start moving the room in on the bottom, or is it only one that starts moving the room in. If one or both do then we will have to replace those cylinders or have you send them in for repair. "
Joe wrote that assuming I would not yet have taken the header off. He said the ideal situation would be to cap all 4 cylinders for this test. I have to get caps for the cylinders before I do this.
I am still at a loss as to how to correctly remove the plastic that covers the cylinders. Anybody know? ??? ??? If nothing else, I'll take a razor blade to it and cut out a section that will let me access the fittings...but it sounds like I will be removing all of it for at least one cylinder.
Pictures of the header joint and the top cylinders attached.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: red tractor on December 12, 2013, 11:05:49 pm
Post by: red tractor on December 12, 2013, 11:05:49 pm
I am not sure how to remove the clear plastic as the country coaches that I worked on did not have that clear plastic shield. Maybe foretravel put it there in case of a hydraulic leak
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 13, 2013, 12:11:33 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 13, 2013, 12:11:33 am
I am not sure how to remove the clear plastic as the country coaches that I worked on did not have that clear plastic shield. Maybe foretravel put it there in case of a hydraulic leak
Hopefully someone will know the plan. If not, I'll probably yank the plastic out and then maybe screw some sheet metal pieces over the openings (with adequate silicon).
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 13, 2013, 08:57:26 am
Post by: Jim Frerichs on December 13, 2013, 08:57:26 am
Hi Brad,
When had my 2002 slide seal replaced by HWH recently, we found the clear plastic shields over lower cylinders would simply slide off the ends of the metal tracks - no problem. Undoubtedly this is because I've hadn't messed with it first and also have led a completely favorable life so the RV gods have shined on me favorably.
Good luck getting them off,
J{im
When had my 2002 slide seal replaced by HWH recently, we found the clear plastic shields over lower cylinders would simply slide off the ends of the metal tracks - no problem. Undoubtedly this is because I've hadn't messed with it first and also have led a completely favorable life so the RV gods have shined on me favorably.
Good luck getting them off,
J{im
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Dan Stansel on December 13, 2013, 09:32:52 am
Post by: Dan Stansel on December 13, 2013, 09:32:52 am
Not sure but those plastic shields keep the slide from squeaking when traveling down the road, I think. DAN
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 16, 2013, 01:22:59 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 16, 2013, 01:22:59 pm
Mike Grimes (FOT) called me back this morning. He said the FT does not have any more of that plastic material around, and that the plastic/lexan should be available locally. He suggested a glass shop might be able to cut new pieces for me. I think I have seen some pretty thick table coverings at K-Mart that would likely be thick enough. I believe they are about .030 thick if my vernier caliper is to be believed.
Mike said it's purpose was just to keep liquid from getting into the mechanism. But also, I note that they used the bottom pieces to receive a goodly coating of spray adhesive to hold the edge of the carpet down.
So I shall rip them out and then seek a local replacement. Likely they were more pliable 11 years ago and would be replaceable, but I don't think the old ones will smoothly reinstall now.
Mike said it's purpose was just to keep liquid from getting into the mechanism. But also, I note that they used the bottom pieces to receive a goodly coating of spray adhesive to hold the edge of the carpet down.
So I shall rip them out and then seek a local replacement. Likely they were more pliable 11 years ago and would be replaceable, but I don't think the old ones will smoothly reinstall now.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 16, 2013, 10:30:52 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 16, 2013, 10:30:52 pm
I pulled the upper two plastics out today. While they wouldn't just pull and slide out the ends, when I pulled the top out of the channel it then came out without too much trouble. Knowing that they are just an extra precaution for liquid is good. When I put them back, if they give me too much hassle, I may just slide them into the lower slots and then tape the tops in place.
Another item I noted is that there accummulates a lot of dirt and gunk on the top of the slide that is normally unseen due to the header being on place when the slide is in and the awning in place when it is out. Standing on a couple of 2 x 6's, I could see past the train devices and observe the dirty fiberglas. While the slide is in, I am cleaning up that area and waxing it, as the bladder seals up on top and smooth has to be better for that $$$$ bladder to press against.
I also noted that the last time my slide was brought in and the cycle completed (less than a week ago), it must not have actually completed fully, even tho the cycle seemed to finish and the red light went out. I say that because I can now see the top locks and they were NOT in place down in the holes as they should have been. I released the bladder and pressed Retract again. The pump came on and this time the lock pins did drop/lock into place. I am going to have to watch and see if they come out from just sitting there, indicating a solenoid valve issue. Hmmm. Another puzzle of the train system.
I am basically just exploring the other issues while I wait for the steel caps from HWH to complete the cylinder test next. Hopefully, this will all be helpful for others with the 2002 Train system. I am learning quite a bit as I go along, thanks to HWH instruction and being able to visually inspect more of this system which completely intimidated me 6 months ago.
Another item I noted is that there accummulates a lot of dirt and gunk on the top of the slide that is normally unseen due to the header being on place when the slide is in and the awning in place when it is out. Standing on a couple of 2 x 6's, I could see past the train devices and observe the dirty fiberglas. While the slide is in, I am cleaning up that area and waxing it, as the bladder seals up on top and smooth has to be better for that $$$$ bladder to press against.
I also noted that the last time my slide was brought in and the cycle completed (less than a week ago), it must not have actually completed fully, even tho the cycle seemed to finish and the red light went out. I say that because I can now see the top locks and they were NOT in place down in the holes as they should have been. I released the bladder and pressed Retract again. The pump came on and this time the lock pins did drop/lock into place. I am going to have to watch and see if they come out from just sitting there, indicating a solenoid valve issue. Hmmm. Another puzzle of the train system.
I am basically just exploring the other issues while I wait for the steel caps from HWH to complete the cylinder test next. Hopefully, this will all be helpful for others with the 2002 Train system. I am learning quite a bit as I go along, thanks to HWH instruction and being able to visually inspect more of this system which completely intimidated me 6 months ago.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 16, 2013, 10:40:50 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 16, 2013, 10:40:50 pm
Hi Brad - Thanks for the continuing commentary. I am with you in mind and spirit.
I put our locking pins through the top skin of our slide a number of months ago and had 2 elongated holes to repair. Certainly a source of leakage before I realized what I had done. Needless to say I had that header off and on many times. No leaks now though. ;D
I put our locking pins through the top skin of our slide a number of months ago and had 2 elongated holes to repair. Certainly a source of leakage before I realized what I had done. Needless to say I had that header off and on many times. No leaks now though. ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 16, 2013, 10:46:43 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 16, 2013, 10:46:43 pm
How did that happen, Scott? I surely would like to avoid having that happen to me here.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 16, 2013, 10:59:41 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 16, 2013, 10:59:41 pm
I am not exactly sure. I do not recall hearing the locking pins go through the to skin but it happened. Probably by not completely cycling our or in. Our 2002s are also special because we are the only ones that have locking pins - I think.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 19, 2013, 12:33:52 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 19, 2013, 12:33:52 am
Today's commentary on the slide...
I got all 4 plastics off yesterday so I could see the cylinders and rods. Then I extended the slide. Nice and smooth. There are bolts with locking nuts that limit the travel of the Train apparatus as it pulls the rods in (thus extending the slide). All 4 cylinders extended to the limiting bolt heads and stopped as appropriate.
Three hours later, I went out and surveyed the situation. As usual, the rear of the slide had crept in. I measured the distances between the 4 limiting boltheads and the walls they butt up against. The lower two were approximately .575" (left) and .500" (right). The upper left had a gap of about .125", while the right was still flush and solid. I then released the bladder, so that any resistance it was providing to the creep would be releaved. I then reinflated and measured again. The upper cylinder distances did not change, but the lower two did. Lower left was now at .750 and lower right was .650.
So I learned that I was correct to think there was a lot of lateral pressure on the bladder if I just left it alone. That is my big concern here, harming the $$$ bladder. I have sent an email off to Joe Portelli to see if he can determine anything from this information. I am still waiting for the USPS to deliver the steel caps for the next test of all 4 cylinders...but I think this info might tell Joe what he needs to learn. Attached are the pictures of the ends of the 4 cylinder rods and the stop bolts.
I got all 4 plastics off yesterday so I could see the cylinders and rods. Then I extended the slide. Nice and smooth. There are bolts with locking nuts that limit the travel of the Train apparatus as it pulls the rods in (thus extending the slide). All 4 cylinders extended to the limiting bolt heads and stopped as appropriate.
Three hours later, I went out and surveyed the situation. As usual, the rear of the slide had crept in. I measured the distances between the 4 limiting boltheads and the walls they butt up against. The lower two were approximately .575" (left) and .500" (right). The upper left had a gap of about .125", while the right was still flush and solid. I then released the bladder, so that any resistance it was providing to the creep would be releaved. I then reinflated and measured again. The upper cylinder distances did not change, but the lower two did. Lower left was now at .750 and lower right was .650.
So I learned that I was correct to think there was a lot of lateral pressure on the bladder if I just left it alone. That is my big concern here, harming the $$$ bladder. I have sent an email off to Joe Portelli to see if he can determine anything from this information. I am still waiting for the USPS to deliver the steel caps for the next test of all 4 cylinders...but I think this info might tell Joe what he needs to learn. Attached are the pictures of the ends of the 4 cylinder rods and the stop bolts.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: sam7 on December 19, 2013, 10:44:00 am
Post by: sam7 on December 19, 2013, 10:44:00 am
Scott, we have a 2001 and have locking pins (4). Just FYI.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 19, 2013, 11:12:32 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 19, 2013, 11:12:32 am
thanks for the input. So we have slide locks on 2001 and 2002 Fore travels.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 19, 2013, 02:26:22 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 19, 2013, 02:26:22 pm
The rods (3 of them) had extended further when I checked this morning. The top right remains at the stop, and the top left didn't add too much more spacing, but the bottom cylinders are both near the 2" mark.
After notifying Joe, I got a response "Yep no question about it you have an internal leak someplace, not sure where but when you get the caps we are going to isolate the cylinders and see if one of those are causing the issue."
Have I told you how much I love HWH and Joe?
After notifying Joe, I got a response "Yep no question about it you have an internal leak someplace, not sure where but when you get the caps we are going to isolate the cylinders and see if one of those are causing the issue."
Have I told you how much I love HWH and Joe?
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 19, 2013, 04:16:58 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 19, 2013, 04:16:58 pm
Gettting closer.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 20, 2013, 04:03:45 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 20, 2013, 04:03:45 pm
I have to report a bit of a setback in the slide-creep identification process today. The caps that HWH sent came in last night, and I took one of the hoses off to cap the elbow.
Oops. The caps Joe sent were the wrong ones...I think they were 5/16" instead of 1/4". I emailed the bag's part number to Joe and he said that yes, the wrong ones had been sent and he would get the right ones out to me today. So we'll have another week before anything significant happens.
Joe had informed me that there wouldn't be any pressure on the hose, but I should not let it drain itself by hanging down. He told me to start with the cylinders that were showing the most creep (the lower ones). I put a towel down and only lost a tiny bit of fluid when I took the lower right one off briefly. It looks like the actual test will be easy. Once the leaking cylinders are identified, then the caps are to be removed, the lines replaced, and then I'll retract the slide. It must be in the retracted position in order to remove any of the cylinders.
So I brought the slide back in for the week and will wait for the new caps.
Oops. The caps Joe sent were the wrong ones...I think they were 5/16" instead of 1/4". I emailed the bag's part number to Joe and he said that yes, the wrong ones had been sent and he would get the right ones out to me today. So we'll have another week before anything significant happens.
Joe had informed me that there wouldn't be any pressure on the hose, but I should not let it drain itself by hanging down. He told me to start with the cylinders that were showing the most creep (the lower ones). I put a towel down and only lost a tiny bit of fluid when I took the lower right one off briefly. It looks like the actual test will be easy. Once the leaking cylinders are identified, then the caps are to be removed, the lines replaced, and then I'll retract the slide. It must be in the retracted position in order to remove any of the cylinders.
So I brought the slide back in for the week and will wait for the new caps.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: BamaFan on December 20, 2013, 07:11:08 pm
Post by: BamaFan on December 20, 2013, 07:11:08 pm
Can I safely assume that these slide problems don't happen in the '03 and later models? We are shopping '03-'04 models, so I am hoping that is true.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Johnstons on December 20, 2013, 08:36:36 pm
Post by: Johnstons on December 20, 2013, 08:36:36 pm
If you find the coach that calls your name buy it and love it. HWH can solve any problem with a trip to Moscow IA.
We had trouble with our 2002 from the time we owned it but now after $650 or so at HWH the slides are working perfectly.
We LOVE this coach.
We had trouble with our 2002 from the time we owned it but now after $650 or so at HWH the slides are working perfectly.
We LOVE this coach.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 20, 2013, 08:42:36 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 20, 2013, 08:42:36 pm
Brad - Rats!!!
BamaFan - I believe the 01 & 02 are the only slides with locking pins and the 02 is the only year with the Train system. I can not speak to slide problems in other years. There are many on this forum that will not have a coach with slides. Slides require maintenance and just like any other piece of mechanical equipment they can break. My DW had to have at least one slide soooooo we have slides. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;D
Yea - What Rick said.
BamaFan - I believe the 01 & 02 are the only slides with locking pins and the 02 is the only year with the Train system. I can not speak to slide problems in other years. There are many on this forum that will not have a coach with slides. Slides require maintenance and just like any other piece of mechanical equipment they can break. My DW had to have at least one slide soooooo we have slides. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;D
Yea - What Rick said.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: red tractor on December 20, 2013, 08:44:56 pm
Post by: red tractor on December 20, 2013, 08:44:56 pm
The 03 and 04 coaches have a different slide mechanism than the 02 coaches. We love our 03 320 40 ft double slide. Good luck on your hunt.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: BamaFan on December 20, 2013, 08:48:31 pm
Post by: BamaFan on December 20, 2013, 08:48:31 pm
Thanks - I appreciate the reassurances.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 20, 2013, 11:22:38 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 20, 2013, 11:22:38 pm
Royce & Denise: I let this 2002 slide intimidate me for several years...far too long. I am now determined to get a full understanding of it, and thanks to the help from HWH, I am confident that I will. Having the header off, I now see exactly how it works. And after looking at the HWH drawings, my now-exposed train system, and the emails and phone calls with HWH, I am actually looking forward to the education of learning how to pull out the cylinders when I learn which ones need to be rebuilt. It may be peculiar to the 2002s to have the train system, but when you see it working, it is a simple design that works.
Like Johnstons said, I love this coach. I am just too far away from HWH to bring it there, and they are so helpful, this has been a lot of fun. I don't have a need to take the coach out next time for a few more months, so I can learn slowly and share it here for others. Then when I am out on the road, and a slide issue occurs, I won't get my blood pressure up any more.
I am a very conservative person, but this slide no longer scares me. Joe has given me a lot of confidence. I am actually going to try to learn and understand how the bladders are replaced, as it really appears to me that it might be something I could do (when and if needed).
Like Johnstons said, I love this coach. I am just too far away from HWH to bring it there, and they are so helpful, this has been a lot of fun. I don't have a need to take the coach out next time for a few more months, so I can learn slowly and share it here for others. Then when I am out on the road, and a slide issue occurs, I won't get my blood pressure up any more.
I am a very conservative person, but this slide no longer scares me. Joe has given me a lot of confidence. I am actually going to try to learn and understand how the bladders are replaced, as it really appears to me that it might be something I could do (when and if needed).
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 21, 2013, 08:14:39 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 21, 2013, 08:14:39 am
Like Brad said - :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 21, 2013, 08:57:20 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 21, 2013, 08:57:20 pm
Today's information is about the solenoid valves. A friend (also with a 2002 that is currently creeping) stopped by and dropped off an old solenoid valve for me to examine, along with some HWH documentation that I had not discovered yet.
The HWH document that is the instruction sheet, http://www.hwh.com/mi159502.pdf (http://www.hwh.com/mi159502.pdf) tells you the process about replacing the Extend and the Retract Valves.
The new replacement valves do not all have the 1/4" nut. HWH has a new style with a "cam release. This is documented in http://www.hwh.com/mp849999.pdf (http://www.hwh.com/mp849999.pdf)
Attached are pictures of the solenoid valve, and I can see the plier/vice-grip marks that show how it was removed by twisting off. The O-rings are odd. There are 5 rings on the thing. When I got my part order last week, it was supposed to be 8 sets. Now I know why I got 40 rings in total! Some are flat and some are round.
The HWH document that is the instruction sheet, http://www.hwh.com/mi159502.pdf (http://www.hwh.com/mi159502.pdf) tells you the process about replacing the Extend and the Retract Valves.
The new replacement valves do not all have the 1/4" nut. HWH has a new style with a "cam release. This is documented in http://www.hwh.com/mp849999.pdf (http://www.hwh.com/mp849999.pdf)
Attached are pictures of the solenoid valve, and I can see the plier/vice-grip marks that show how it was removed by twisting off. The O-rings are odd. There are 5 rings on the thing. When I got my part order last week, it was supposed to be 8 sets. Now I know why I got 40 rings in total! Some are flat and some are round.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 21, 2013, 09:27:38 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on December 21, 2013, 09:27:38 pm
Included this stuff in my file. It's getting big. 15 files and pics so far. I guess I should start the write-up soon.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 06, 2014, 04:37:39 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 06, 2014, 04:37:39 pm
Next step in the process.
I got the caps in the mail from HWH. They are regular steel 1/4" flair caps. I went down to the local "store-with-everything-hydraulic-and-plumbing" and found 4 matching steel plugs. I verified with Joe that plugging the lines that I remove would not impede the testing. Seemed a cleaner plan than just letting them sit open.
Pictures below tell the story. The first picture shows an example of one of the lines removed (from the 90 degree elbows) and the cap in place on the cylinder and the plug in place on the line. There was minimal fluid leakage in taking the line off. All 4 look the same.
The second picture shows how the cylinder has extended the rod about 1/2" (measured by how far the stop bolt has moved from the aluminum stop wall, which it was flush against at the start of the test), and it was taken about 30 minutes after starting. The third picture was taken about three hours after beginning the test, and it shows the rod has extended around an inch. So far, only the lower-rear cylinder appears to be the culprit. I will wait a while, but the others seem to be remaining fully retracted.
At this point, it would seem that the lower front (which had extended about 1/2 the distance of the rear when it was not capped), and the upper front (which had moved only about 1/16 of an inch) probably moved because of the bad lower-rear cylinder.
That will be the next step, to conclude if it is only one, then replace all lines where they belong and bring the slide in. It has to be retracted for cylinder removal, I am told. Joe has warned me that there will be some pressure in any cylinder which I find to have moved, and ANY movement is indicative of a bad cylinder. So I plan on a bit of a mess as I replace at least that one line under the dinette.
I do not yet know exactly how the cylinder will be removed from the system. Joe said I could order a new one or I could get this rebuilt. Next should be removal pictures. I fear that I may need a special tool that they sell to get it apart and reinstalled, so it may be another long waiting period.
I got the caps in the mail from HWH. They are regular steel 1/4" flair caps. I went down to the local "store-with-everything-hydraulic-and-plumbing" and found 4 matching steel plugs. I verified with Joe that plugging the lines that I remove would not impede the testing. Seemed a cleaner plan than just letting them sit open.
Pictures below tell the story. The first picture shows an example of one of the lines removed (from the 90 degree elbows) and the cap in place on the cylinder and the plug in place on the line. There was minimal fluid leakage in taking the line off. All 4 look the same.
The second picture shows how the cylinder has extended the rod about 1/2" (measured by how far the stop bolt has moved from the aluminum stop wall, which it was flush against at the start of the test), and it was taken about 30 minutes after starting. The third picture was taken about three hours after beginning the test, and it shows the rod has extended around an inch. So far, only the lower-rear cylinder appears to be the culprit. I will wait a while, but the others seem to be remaining fully retracted.
At this point, it would seem that the lower front (which had extended about 1/2 the distance of the rear when it was not capped), and the upper front (which had moved only about 1/16 of an inch) probably moved because of the bad lower-rear cylinder.
That will be the next step, to conclude if it is only one, then replace all lines where they belong and bring the slide in. It has to be retracted for cylinder removal, I am told. Joe has warned me that there will be some pressure in any cylinder which I find to have moved, and ANY movement is indicative of a bad cylinder. So I plan on a bit of a mess as I replace at least that one line under the dinette.
I do not yet know exactly how the cylinder will be removed from the system. Joe said I could order a new one or I could get this rebuilt. Next should be removal pictures. I fear that I may need a special tool that they sell to get it apart and reinstalled, so it may be another long waiting period.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Tim Fiedler on January 06, 2014, 05:35:43 pm
Post by: Tim Fiedler on January 06, 2014, 05:35:43 pm
different slide on my 2000 U-320 BUT when I needed both hydraulic cylinders (leaking) fixed/replaced HWH was $450 each and three to four week wait, local (to MOT) hydraulic shop fixed same day for $125 each, no trouble since.
May be able to get rebuilt locally?
May be able to get rebuilt locally?
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 06, 2014, 06:58:01 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 06, 2014, 06:58:01 pm
Tim, I am planning on waiting to see what they say about cost before I get further. I know most shops like to replace entire manifolds/cylinders, rather than just a few o-rings. Frankly, I don't think there really is much to go wrong inside these things but O-rings. I disassembled my old air cylinders from the air step and the entire concept didn't seem all that difficult.
After 6 hours, the other 3 cylinders remained tightly snug as they should have been. So, the most difficult one to get at, the lower rear, is my only culprit with an internal leak-by.
I put the system back together, pushed the extend button for a cycle (couple of seconds) and the rod went back to the right place. Then I retracted the slide without a problem. Next step will be removal of that cylinder, once I get told how. I think it *might* actually be disassembled in place and rebuilt, but I will defer to HWH's judgement.
On an easier note, I replaced the slide wiper this afternoon. Instead of crumbling white, it is a pretty black.
After 6 hours, the other 3 cylinders remained tightly snug as they should have been. So, the most difficult one to get at, the lower rear, is my only culprit with an internal leak-by.
I put the system back together, pushed the extend button for a cycle (couple of seconds) and the rod went back to the right place. Then I retracted the slide without a problem. Next step will be removal of that cylinder, once I get told how. I think it *might* actually be disassembled in place and rebuilt, but I will defer to HWH's judgement.
On an easier note, I replaced the slide wiper this afternoon. Instead of crumbling white, it is a pretty black.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 06, 2014, 08:57:53 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 06, 2014, 08:57:53 pm
Good show Brad.....I'm still with you.... :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 09, 2014, 01:32:33 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 09, 2014, 01:32:33 pm
Brad - I have attached a pic of the bottom left slide cylinder under the Villa dinette seat. This pic is taken directly below the right seat, looking at the slide from the inside. In reference your pic above, would I assume that the distance between the bolt head and the aluminum plate to the right of the bolt head displays the cylinder "Creep"?????
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 09, 2014, 02:39:43 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 09, 2014, 02:39:43 pm
Brad - I have attached a pic of the bottom left slide cylinder under the Villa dinette seat. This pic is taken directly below the right seat, looking at the slide from the inside. In reference your pic above, would I assume that the distance between the bolt head and the aluminum plate to the right of the bolt head displays the cylinder "Creep"?????
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 10, 2014, 07:50:01 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 10, 2014, 07:50:01 pm
Talked to HWH today and asked about repair vs replace cost. The cylinders I have are labeled "AP24220" and the replacement is "RAP90856". New they are $395. She couldn't tell me a repair cost other than the maximum cost would be $276.
No progress on cylinder removal today...Our sticks and bricks water heater decided to die last night and it took precedence to be replaced.
No progress on cylinder removal today...Our sticks and bricks water heater decided to die last night and it took precedence to be replaced.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Tim Fiedler on January 10, 2014, 09:41:04 pm
Post by: Tim Fiedler on January 10, 2014, 09:41:04 pm
As I mentioned - MOT had mine done locally (two of them) for $125 or $100 each, one day turn around - HWH was $450 new, no repair possible through them.
I still might have gone with HWH but they quoted 2 - 3 weeks lead time and that was deal killer.....turned out fine so far, two years later.
TIm
I still might have gone with HWH but they quoted 2 - 3 weeks lead time and that was deal killer.....turned out fine so far, two years later.
TIm
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 07:54:01 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 07:54:01 pm
Today I got a lot further, mostly with the help and encouragement of my friend Dave as well as my wife.
The dinette seats (both) do need to come out. After struggling a bit, I realized that I really could open the slide at this point and have a bit of room to work. After first considering taking the seats off of the mounting frames, I quickly realized it was easier to unbolt the units from the floor instead. Then I turned them upside down on the couch, as you must retract the slide and ose all the space for the next steps.
Once I retracted the slide, the next step was to pull up the carpet across the first approximately 6". It was mostly held by the same adhesive as on the front, but there were a few staples also. Putting it back will be easy.
There is a board that is about 3" wide that runs the length of the aluminum slide channel. There were about 4 screws across the rear. The front had a couple of beads of silicon, but the bead was easily broken by a little force. Once that board is removed, you will see the aluminum channel which has 10 bolts holding it to the frame of the slide. I supported the frame with about 2" of wood in an open spot. (HWH instructions...you can see the wood in picture #5). While there was initially no weight on it, I noticed later in the process that there was a bit of weight there.
Before or after removing those bolts, you must take the outer nuts off of ALL FOUR cylinder rods, which will be in an extended position (as the room is retracted). Release the bladder so that the Extend button will work. Evn tho the slide goes nowhere because all 4 rods are free, the electronics won't let you do anything while the bladder is inflated.
When all 4 rods are retracted, you can wiggle off the aluminum channel. Pull it about 2 inches and look to see that the two white rollers on the end of the cylinder are lined up with the slots in the aluminum channel. When they are, pull the cylinder out of the channel and into the room. I at first tried this without having retracted all the rods, but that won't work as the coach doesn't have room to swing the cylinder and extended rod (about 58") into the room.
Anyway, when you swing the cylinder into the room, while bringing the aluminum channel towards the center of the coach, the very last brass guides will come out the back of the curve and the train mechanism and cylinder will come out of the aluminum channel easily.
At this point, I released both of the solenoids under the coach to remove pressure (the Room extend and the room retract...not the lock solenoids). Then I disconnected the two hydraulic lines and I capped both of them on the cylinder and plugged both of the lines. Very minimal fluid came out.
The train and cylinder connection took a lot of head-scratching. It had a slot, like for a screwdriver, but it would not screw off. I finally realized that I could line up the slot with the tiny opening of a tiny snap-ring. After doing so, I held the screwdriver in the slot, but slid over so it was also holding the snap ring...maybe open a teensy bit. I then took a much smaller little $1 store screwdriver blade into the other side of the slot and pried the ring out and up (with my finger covering it so it wouldn't go flying).
One mistake I made was to open ALL of the lines on the cylinder, once I got it out. I was trying to get all the fluid out. Apparently, there is a spring inside and once the fluid was gone, the rod extended about half-way and won't stay back in. Just going to make for a longer package to send. Rats.
Pictures below are numbered in sequence. Once I get it repaired, the re-installation should be a piece of cake. Then I get to do the re-synch process which will take a little care as all the rods have to be run back and forth a few times to make sure they are in synch with each other. Another clear HWH sheet tells me exactly how to do that. Th only thing in error on that sheet is that it says you can skip the part above about pressing the extend button (retracting the rods) if you are replacing a cylinder. That may be true for other cylinders that have room to be twisted into the room in their extended positions (Upper and lower front cylinders), but definitely not true for the lower rear, and probably not the upper rear either.
The dinette seats (both) do need to come out. After struggling a bit, I realized that I really could open the slide at this point and have a bit of room to work. After first considering taking the seats off of the mounting frames, I quickly realized it was easier to unbolt the units from the floor instead. Then I turned them upside down on the couch, as you must retract the slide and ose all the space for the next steps.
Once I retracted the slide, the next step was to pull up the carpet across the first approximately 6". It was mostly held by the same adhesive as on the front, but there were a few staples also. Putting it back will be easy.
There is a board that is about 3" wide that runs the length of the aluminum slide channel. There were about 4 screws across the rear. The front had a couple of beads of silicon, but the bead was easily broken by a little force. Once that board is removed, you will see the aluminum channel which has 10 bolts holding it to the frame of the slide. I supported the frame with about 2" of wood in an open spot. (HWH instructions...you can see the wood in picture #5). While there was initially no weight on it, I noticed later in the process that there was a bit of weight there.
Before or after removing those bolts, you must take the outer nuts off of ALL FOUR cylinder rods, which will be in an extended position (as the room is retracted). Release the bladder so that the Extend button will work. Evn tho the slide goes nowhere because all 4 rods are free, the electronics won't let you do anything while the bladder is inflated.
When all 4 rods are retracted, you can wiggle off the aluminum channel. Pull it about 2 inches and look to see that the two white rollers on the end of the cylinder are lined up with the slots in the aluminum channel. When they are, pull the cylinder out of the channel and into the room. I at first tried this without having retracted all the rods, but that won't work as the coach doesn't have room to swing the cylinder and extended rod (about 58") into the room.
Anyway, when you swing the cylinder into the room, while bringing the aluminum channel towards the center of the coach, the very last brass guides will come out the back of the curve and the train mechanism and cylinder will come out of the aluminum channel easily.
At this point, I released both of the solenoids under the coach to remove pressure (the Room extend and the room retract...not the lock solenoids). Then I disconnected the two hydraulic lines and I capped both of them on the cylinder and plugged both of the lines. Very minimal fluid came out.
The train and cylinder connection took a lot of head-scratching. It had a slot, like for a screwdriver, but it would not screw off. I finally realized that I could line up the slot with the tiny opening of a tiny snap-ring. After doing so, I held the screwdriver in the slot, but slid over so it was also holding the snap ring...maybe open a teensy bit. I then took a much smaller little $1 store screwdriver blade into the other side of the slot and pried the ring out and up (with my finger covering it so it wouldn't go flying).
One mistake I made was to open ALL of the lines on the cylinder, once I got it out. I was trying to get all the fluid out. Apparently, there is a spring inside and once the fluid was gone, the rod extended about half-way and won't stay back in. Just going to make for a longer package to send. Rats.
Pictures below are numbered in sequence. Once I get it repaired, the re-installation should be a piece of cake. Then I get to do the re-synch process which will take a little care as all the rods have to be run back and forth a few times to make sure they are in synch with each other. Another clear HWH sheet tells me exactly how to do that. Th only thing in error on that sheet is that it says you can skip the part above about pressing the extend button (retracting the rods) if you are replacing a cylinder. That may be true for other cylinders that have room to be twisted into the room in their extended positions (Upper and lower front cylinders), but definitely not true for the lower rear, and probably not the upper rear either.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Dan Stansel on January 11, 2014, 08:03:34 pm
Post by: Dan Stansel on January 11, 2014, 08:03:34 pm
Brad you are above my pay grade. I would just have to take to FOT and let them fix it. DAN
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 08:16:48 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 08:16:48 pm
Tim: I will probably just send this to HWH to be rebuilt as I feel a need to support HWH after all the time and support they've provided me on my adventure here. I know they have enabled me to save a lot of labor costs AND actually guided me through the correct process to determine what *really* needs to be bought so I don't just keep buying new parts. I am lucky in that my next planned outing is still around 60 days away, so I do have the time to wait for them to rebuild it.
To truly diagnose a slide creep problem with the 2002 Train system requires only a $108 kit from HWH for one test, and 4 steel caps and 4 steel plugs for the second test (the latter just a precaution to avoid a mess).
Dan: I tried FOT in 2007. They couldn't find anything wrong...and didn't see the 2 bolts penetrating the slide channel and causing the strain to that cylinder. I didn't know anything about these hydraulics until I decided I was being forced to learn when 2 shops couldn't fix it.
To truly diagnose a slide creep problem with the 2002 Train system requires only a $108 kit from HWH for one test, and 4 steel caps and 4 steel plugs for the second test (the latter just a precaution to avoid a mess).
Dan: I tried FOT in 2007. They couldn't find anything wrong...and didn't see the 2 bolts penetrating the slide channel and causing the strain to that cylinder. I didn't know anything about these hydraulics until I decided I was being forced to learn when 2 shops couldn't fix it.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: John Haygarth on January 11, 2014, 08:23:39 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on January 11, 2014, 08:23:39 pm
Brad, my sentiments too after all the help HWH has given you. Good decision on your part.
John H
John H
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Michelle on January 11, 2014, 08:26:35 pm
Post by: Michelle on January 11, 2014, 08:26:35 pm
Brad,
Thank you for posting the photos and details on the forum - I know they will help others in the future. This is why Steve created the forum.
Michelle
Thank you for posting the photos and details on the forum - I know they will help others in the future. This is why Steve created the forum.
Michelle
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 08:44:26 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 08:44:26 pm
Brad,
Thank you for posting the photos and details on the forum - I know they will help others in the future. This is why Steve created the forum.
Michelle
I am always, always ready to answer any question I can about this stuff. I'm glad you didn't see this huge thread as too distracting and lengthy.
P.s. I tried to use a Yahoo group recently on another topic. I am very grateful that you and Steve have set this up as you have and evolved us from Yahoo. While I enjoyed the earlier FT Yahoo group, Yahoo has messed up groups so badly that I likely wouldn't have bothered to try to participate any more. So Kudos and thanks to both of you!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Tim Fiedler on January 11, 2014, 09:06:23 pm
Post by: Tim Fiedler on January 11, 2014, 09:06:23 pm
Brad, makes perfect sense. In my case I couldn't afford the three weeks or I probably would support HWH directly
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 11, 2014, 10:46:19 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 11, 2014, 10:46:19 pm
Good Show Brad - I think I can do that too. ^.^d
Will have a rough draft of a " 2002 Slide Creep Document" prepared to this point - and will forward to you in the next week for your review. I have included much of your dialog verbatim (cut and paste). As discussed earlier, with your approval, I will submit it to Barry B. for inclusion in his marvelous web site.
Thanks again for showing us/me the way.
Will have a rough draft of a " 2002 Slide Creep Document" prepared to this point - and will forward to you in the next week for your review. I have included much of your dialog verbatim (cut and paste). As discussed earlier, with your approval, I will submit it to Barry B. for inclusion in his marvelous web site.
Thanks again for showing us/me the way.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 11:58:48 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 11, 2014, 11:58:48 pm
Good Show Brad - I think I can do that too. ^.^d
Will have a rough draft of a " 2002 Slide Creep Document" prepared to this point - and will forward to you in the next week for your review. I have included much of your dialog verbatim (cut and paste). As discussed earlier, with your approval, I will submit it to Barry B. for inclusion in his marvelous web site.
Thanks again for showing us/me the way.
I was so slow to get it apart because I am really, really hesitant if I am not sure what I will run into down the line. I don't like walking off of cliffs!
Glad you are putting it all together. Saves me a LOT of work to get it collected and into a good form.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 12, 2014, 12:21:54 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 12, 2014, 12:21:54 pm
Brad - I figured since you are DOING the work and I have a selfish interest in what and how you are doing it not to mention the value of this forum to me/us and maybe more importantly the identification of this problem and as you aptly stated: "We should be able to put it all together and assuage folks' fears of taking this on", I would try to utilize my interest and produce a document that might be of value to others.
I am still not 100% sure if I want to tackle this job but am learning through your experience. I believe that that is what this forum is about. Identification of problem(s), joint problem solving and the exercise of choice as to how to best address/eliminate the problem(s).
^.^d
I am still not 100% sure if I want to tackle this job but am learning through your experience. I believe that that is what this forum is about. Identification of problem(s), joint problem solving and the exercise of choice as to how to best address/eliminate the problem(s).
^.^d
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 12, 2014, 12:58:15 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 12, 2014, 12:58:15 pm
^.^d This week is gonna be "Ship the cylinder off and attempt to make my own tool for the snap ring replacement." I'll call tomorrow and get a repair order number and check on the price of the tool. It is a TS27333, Snap Ring Assembly Tool, but I cannot find it in their price list and I found similar tools for nearly $30 used on ebay. Doesn't look too hard to make out of a bolt, so I'll try that today while waiting for Monday to come.
Incidentally, there are two repair kits for Train parts. I shouldn't need any of them because I didn't damage anything getting the snap ring off. RAP90883 is a link repair kit ($73.00) RAP90826 is a roller repair kit ($35.42). The links, altho scored on mine, don't look like any replacement is necessary.
Attached are documents showing the tool, the repair kits, and a drawing of what the snap ring looks like from a manufacturer's website. Near as I can tell, it is a SHM-25.
Incidentally, there are two repair kits for Train parts. I shouldn't need any of them because I didn't damage anything getting the snap ring off. RAP90883 is a link repair kit ($73.00) RAP90826 is a roller repair kit ($35.42). The links, altho scored on mine, don't look like any replacement is necessary.
Attached are documents showing the tool, the repair kits, and a drawing of what the snap ring looks like from a manufacturer's website. Near as I can tell, it is a SHM-25.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 12, 2014, 03:22:00 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 12, 2014, 03:22:00 pm
Given my limited "machine shop" tools, I took a 2" bolt, hacksawed off the threaded portion, put the head in the drill press' vice,type and proceeded to hollow the end of it. I think I used a 3/8" bit. Then I used a small hobby belt sander alternatively with a Dremel tool to shrink the end of the bolt. Round and round, trying not to sand my fingers. Once I got the install end of the thing down to the proper size, I cut the head off the bolt and more aggressively ground the upper part smaller than the install end. I got it down so it will accept the ring without having to push it on. A nicely swaged mandril tool.
Then I took a nut and drilled out the center so that it will go over the full length of my new tool. That nut will push the ring down and allow it to spread as it goes down the mandril. The countersunk end fits nicely over the shaft and this should be a piece of cake to put the ring back in when the cylinder is returned. I may have to grind off part of the edge of the nut...not sure yet if it will go down far enough.
With all this work, the cost of the tool from HWH will probably be so cheap that I'll buy a real one anyway.
Then I took a nut and drilled out the center so that it will go over the full length of my new tool. That nut will push the ring down and allow it to spread as it goes down the mandril. The countersunk end fits nicely over the shaft and this should be a piece of cake to put the ring back in when the cylinder is returned. I may have to grind off part of the edge of the nut...not sure yet if it will go down far enough.
With all this work, the cost of the tool from HWH will probably be so cheap that I'll buy a real one anyway.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 13, 2014, 02:02:40 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 13, 2014, 02:02:40 pm
TS27333 is the correct part number for the snap ring tool. I ordered one for $10.00 and shipped off my cylinder this morning. USPS says it should be there EOD Thursday. HWH said 3-4 days to get it rebuilt and headed back.
So I have about 2 weeks to find a replacement snap ring. HWH told me I should be able to find the rings locally, but I was unsuccessful here in town. Does anyone know where I could get at least one of these? I generally think of snap-rings as consumables that should be replaced when removed. I continue to believe these are identified as SHM-25, but that might not be correct. They are for a 1/4" shaft.
So I have about 2 weeks to find a replacement snap ring. HWH told me I should be able to find the rings locally, but I was unsuccessful here in town. Does anyone know where I could get at least one of these? I generally think of snap-rings as consumables that should be replaced when removed. I continue to believe these are identified as SHM-25, but that might not be correct. They are for a 1/4" shaft.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 14, 2014, 12:30:15 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 14, 2014, 12:30:15 pm
I contacted Rotor Clip (the manufacturer) via an online form last night, and they instructed me to just order a sample if I only needed a few and it would solve my needs. Within 30 minutes, they confirmed that a sample of 6 (the maximum, according to the webpage) would be in the mail to me today. NO CHARGE!!
They also gave me a link to a retailer. https://www.huyett.com/Products/Fasteners/Retaining-Rings/Snap-Rings/SHM-025.aspx (https://www.huyett.com/Products/Fasteners/Retaining-Rings/Snap-Rings/SHM-025.aspx) I see the minimum order there is 15, with a cost of $.1725 each. As I have the sample coming, I did not check to see what the total cost would be with shipping.
Here is the Rotor Clip page linking to their retailers. Rotor Express (https://www.rotorclip.com/rotor-express.php) The various retailes call this an SHM-25, SHM-025, SHM-025SA, etc.
They also gave me a link to a retailer. https://www.huyett.com/Products/Fasteners/Retaining-Rings/Snap-Rings/SHM-025.aspx (https://www.huyett.com/Products/Fasteners/Retaining-Rings/Snap-Rings/SHM-025.aspx) I see the minimum order there is 15, with a cost of $.1725 each. As I have the sample coming, I did not check to see what the total cost would be with shipping.
Here is the Rotor Clip page linking to their retailers. Rotor Express (https://www.rotorclip.com/rotor-express.php) The various retailes call this an SHM-25, SHM-025, SHM-025SA, etc.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 14, 2014, 03:56:40 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 14, 2014, 03:56:40 pm
When the new cylinder gets back and is reinstalled, the system needs to be cycled several times to purge air and to get all 4 cylinders to "come into time" together. This cycling occurs while the 4 rods are NOT connected to the room, so care has to be taken to guide the threaded rod ends through the aluminum holes.
My first thought was that I needed to get 4 more people and station one at each cylinder while the 5th person presses the retract button (that pushes the rods out). That didn't sound too feasible, so I made a short 2x3 into 4 guides that will set in the channels and make sure the rods don't mash the threads into the walls as they come out.
My first thought was that I needed to get 4 more people and station one at each cylinder while the 5th person presses the retract button (that pushes the rods out). That didn't sound too feasible, so I made a short 2x3 into 4 guides that will set in the channels and make sure the rods don't mash the threads into the walls as they come out.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 14, 2014, 05:46:03 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 14, 2014, 05:46:03 pm
Geeez...
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: John Haygarth on January 14, 2014, 08:30:36 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on January 14, 2014, 08:30:36 pm
Brad, you may be the new "slide guy" expert soon. Don't forget to put a patent on those blocks you made!!
John H
John H
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 14, 2014, 10:55:04 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 14, 2014, 10:55:04 pm
Brad, you may be the new "slide guy" expert soon. Don't forget to put a patent on those blocks you made!!
John H
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 14, 2014, 11:12:42 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 14, 2014, 11:12:42 pm
Can I be your first customer? ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on January 18, 2014, 09:27:45 pm
Post by: Jim Frerichs on January 18, 2014, 09:27:45 pm
Brad,
Good idea...count me in for one.
Jim
Good idea...count me in for one.
Jim
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 18, 2014, 09:45:23 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 18, 2014, 09:45:23 pm
If this works, maybe I should open a specialized shop here. 2002 Train systems only. Scott and Carol are piecing together the "Instruction guide" and I think it was up to 13 pages so far. I am going to try to take more pictures as I reassemble it.
I had originally told HWH to keep the old parts, but realized my error and I amended my order to have them send me the bad stuff too. I am anxious to see if it is just a few o-rng type seals that go bad. They did acknowledge that they received my cylinder Friday. Wahoo!
I'm happy to help anyone get through this. My first "customer" is gonna be my buddy Dave in town with his creepy 2002 U320.
I had originally told HWH to keep the old parts, but realized my error and I amended my order to have them send me the bad stuff too. I am anxious to see if it is just a few o-rng type seals that go bad. They did acknowledge that they received my cylinder Friday. Wahoo!
I'm happy to help anyone get through this. My first "customer" is gonna be my buddy Dave in town with his creepy 2002 U320.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 18, 2014, 09:51:41 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 18, 2014, 09:51:41 pm
Then I guess I'll have to be #2. ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 18, 2014, 10:36:03 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 18, 2014, 10:36:03 pm
It's out of necessity for us to work on our own here in Havasu. The HWH "official" service place here reportedly "won't touch a FT slide." That is probably a good thing, as I had them install a driveshaft disconnect on my S-10 years ago...and they did EXACTLY what the instructions say not to do as far as cable placement.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 27, 2014, 05:58:24 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 27, 2014, 05:58:24 pm
Update: Shipped the Cylinder off 1/13, HWH got it 1/17 (Friday), replaced the end of the cylinder and had it back to UPS on 1/21. It got here today, 1/27, along with a handy little tool to put the snapring on.
1. Snapring tool was most excellent. I used a rubber mallot on it, with a short 2 by 4 placed under the reinstalled pin holding the cylinder to the train. At first, my stroke was too gentle, and the ring did not seat on the pin. The second time, I gave it more and it worked well to get the ring onto the pin, but was not fully seated in the groove, so I used the slide portion of the tool and gave it another tap. Easy. I did get my sample of 6 rings, so I used a new one.
2. You have to hold the cylinder (now attached to the train), and wiggle the aluminum channel so that the rollers go into it properly. Not too hard.
3. Once the rollers are set into the channel from the back, you swing the channel out a bit and swing the cylinder out even further (like straight out to the other wall...W/D cabinet in my case). This lets the base of the cylinder (opposite the rod end) start into the track. Now here is where I ran into an obstacle. The cylinder SHOULD just swivel/bend the train assembly and the end start into the channel. I say start, as the other end (where the rod extends from) will only fit into the aluminum channel where two slots are cut into it...just wide enough for the cylinder's white rollers to slide into their places. You have to pull or push both the channel and the cylinder until they line up. That part is easy. HOWEVER, my cylinder base absolutely would not start into the channel. There are 2 fittings...the T and the elbow...that were so wide that they simply would not enter it and I did not want to gouge up the threads. I even left the plastic caps on the openings, but it was the nut on the T fitting that was the upper problem and the threads on the lower elbow. I retrieved the old, damaged cylinder base and saw that it had been ever-so-narrower at this point of conflict. Maybe the old fittings were screwed a little further into the cylinder? But for whatever reason, I was required to file a wee bit of both the top and the bottom channel edges. Like 1/64" depth and 1/2" long on both top and bottom. I marked with a pencil where the conflict was and then got the cylinder out of my way to use a dremel grinder and a little file. Once that was done, the cylinder went right in.
4. Next was to reinstall the channel with the 10 bolts. They are hard to get started properly, because when they were originally installed, Foretravel grinds off the bottom 1/8" or so to make it smooth. Thus, the bolts must be carefully started in the soft aluminum, and then they will catch properly in the steel threads of the top and bottom of the frame tube.
That is as far as I went today. Tomorrow I will next close the two solenoids and hit extend which will draw in the rods, which I seem to have left out about an inch or two. While doing that, I will ensure that the new cylinder has the two hydraulic lines connected as they should be. As I reassembled it, it looked like it was possible to switch them, so if that rod starts to come out while the others retract, I won't do any harm. Next time, I would take the time to label them as the "T" and the "elbow."
BTW, a replacement cylinder is listed as $395. This one was rebuilt for .75 hr labor ($67.50) and $75.40 for the cylinder end module. When asked if I wanted it repainted for $15, I declined. They shipped the $10 snap ring tool with it as promised, so no extra freight for that part.
Next will be the re-synch process with the help of my friend as well as my wife to make sure all 4 rods are headed where they are supposed to go. It is a little intimidating to me, so I'm gonna start it when I am fresh and ready for a challenge. Not today.
1. Snapring tool was most excellent. I used a rubber mallot on it, with a short 2 by 4 placed under the reinstalled pin holding the cylinder to the train. At first, my stroke was too gentle, and the ring did not seat on the pin. The second time, I gave it more and it worked well to get the ring onto the pin, but was not fully seated in the groove, so I used the slide portion of the tool and gave it another tap. Easy. I did get my sample of 6 rings, so I used a new one.
2. You have to hold the cylinder (now attached to the train), and wiggle the aluminum channel so that the rollers go into it properly. Not too hard.
3. Once the rollers are set into the channel from the back, you swing the channel out a bit and swing the cylinder out even further (like straight out to the other wall...W/D cabinet in my case). This lets the base of the cylinder (opposite the rod end) start into the track. Now here is where I ran into an obstacle. The cylinder SHOULD just swivel/bend the train assembly and the end start into the channel. I say start, as the other end (where the rod extends from) will only fit into the aluminum channel where two slots are cut into it...just wide enough for the cylinder's white rollers to slide into their places. You have to pull or push both the channel and the cylinder until they line up. That part is easy. HOWEVER, my cylinder base absolutely would not start into the channel. There are 2 fittings...the T and the elbow...that were so wide that they simply would not enter it and I did not want to gouge up the threads. I even left the plastic caps on the openings, but it was the nut on the T fitting that was the upper problem and the threads on the lower elbow. I retrieved the old, damaged cylinder base and saw that it had been ever-so-narrower at this point of conflict. Maybe the old fittings were screwed a little further into the cylinder? But for whatever reason, I was required to file a wee bit of both the top and the bottom channel edges. Like 1/64" depth and 1/2" long on both top and bottom. I marked with a pencil where the conflict was and then got the cylinder out of my way to use a dremel grinder and a little file. Once that was done, the cylinder went right in.
4. Next was to reinstall the channel with the 10 bolts. They are hard to get started properly, because when they were originally installed, Foretravel grinds off the bottom 1/8" or so to make it smooth. Thus, the bolts must be carefully started in the soft aluminum, and then they will catch properly in the steel threads of the top and bottom of the frame tube.
That is as far as I went today. Tomorrow I will next close the two solenoids and hit extend which will draw in the rods, which I seem to have left out about an inch or two. While doing that, I will ensure that the new cylinder has the two hydraulic lines connected as they should be. As I reassembled it, it looked like it was possible to switch them, so if that rod starts to come out while the others retract, I won't do any harm. Next time, I would take the time to label them as the "T" and the "elbow."
BTW, a replacement cylinder is listed as $395. This one was rebuilt for .75 hr labor ($67.50) and $75.40 for the cylinder end module. When asked if I wanted it repainted for $15, I declined. They shipped the $10 snap ring tool with it as promised, so no extra freight for that part.
Next will be the re-synch process with the help of my friend as well as my wife to make sure all 4 rods are headed where they are supposed to go. It is a little intimidating to me, so I'm gonna start it when I am fresh and ready for a challenge. Not today.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: ohsonew on January 27, 2014, 06:15:42 pm
Post by: ohsonew on January 27, 2014, 06:15:42 pm
Brad, we are waiting with baited breath. Hope for instant success. You've been through enough.
Larry
Larry
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 27, 2014, 06:57:07 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 27, 2014, 06:57:07 pm
Good news - great job. ^.^d
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 27, 2014, 07:54:11 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 27, 2014, 07:54:11 pm
Here are pictures of the notches in the channel where the top end of the cylinders go into the channel, as well as pictures of the upper and lower grindings I had to do to get the base installed. I'm sure it was just different tolerances in the cylinders.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 27, 2014, 08:42:14 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 27, 2014, 08:42:14 pm
Couldn't leave it alone HUH? ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 27, 2014, 08:51:43 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 27, 2014, 08:51:43 pm
Couldn't leave it alone HUH? ;D
The sideposts for the header are already on, so it may all be together and done tomorrow. I'm waiting to get the slide back open before I try to reinstall the dinette. That and putting up the header are all that will be left once synched.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 28, 2014, 08:47:56 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 28, 2014, 08:47:56 am
Getting closer. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 04:14:03 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 04:14:03 pm
Hopefully, this is the last installment. My friend Dave came over and with his and my wife's help, we did the synch process.
1. I had her touch the retract button briefly to make sure the new cylinder was properly hooked up..and the hoses weren't backwards. It shot out about 6" (the right direction).
2. I now know why you are instructed to support the slide when the rods are unbolted. When the bladder is deflated, the upper part of the slide tilts in. This keeps the upper cylinder rods from fully extending through the holes to be locked back in place. I had a couple blocks there, but I should have had them in place BEFORE I had released the rod ends. I had blocked it AFTER, but before taking the aluminum channel off. Apparently, it had already tilted a little. See #3.
3. Since the bottom generally does "lead" the top a bit, a total of 3 people worked out great for the task. My wife was at the button, and Dave was at the forward, lower rod while I was at the rear lower rod. We had her hit the RETRACT button and we guided the extending rods through the lower assemblies. Then we went to the top ones which were still about an inch out. She pressed the RETRACT button again and we got them a little further, but still not synched together by the time it stopped moving. We repeated this process a couple of times and everything finally came together. The top rods were not completely through the holes, yet the pump shut off and they were now in synch with each other. That is when we realized that the top of the slide was tilted in a bit (which elongates the train assembly and the rods are pulled back a bit. We gave the upper aluminum channels a bit of a shove, first the front, then the rear, and we got enough threads coming through to actually put the upper part of the slide in the right place by simply tightening the nuts on the rods. Then we put the nuts on the lower cylinders.
4. With a deep breath, I pressed the EXTEND button.
5. That slide has NEVER been so smooth and quiet as it glided itself into place. Back in and back out. Same result. Perfectly quiet and perfectly in synch. Ahhhh.
6. Two hours later, no creep. No creaking, no nothing. It just sits there doing what it is supposed to do: Staying in the fully extended position.
Tonight will be adult refreshment night. Total cost to get this problem properly tested, diagnosed and repaired was approximately $300, including the $108 Isolation kit. I could kick myself for doing without the slide for so long.
So, Scott, I'm done. You can have a go at the finished product if you like. As noted above, there were a couple of surprises and "Oh, I see" moments, but frankly, the entire process is pretty simple. Discounting all my fears, removing the header was the worst part. I suspect replacing the front lower would have been more difficult with the Couch. My dinette is back in, modified header is screwed in place, and a little cleaning and vacuuming is all that's left.
1. I had her touch the retract button briefly to make sure the new cylinder was properly hooked up..and the hoses weren't backwards. It shot out about 6" (the right direction).
2. I now know why you are instructed to support the slide when the rods are unbolted. When the bladder is deflated, the upper part of the slide tilts in. This keeps the upper cylinder rods from fully extending through the holes to be locked back in place. I had a couple blocks there, but I should have had them in place BEFORE I had released the rod ends. I had blocked it AFTER, but before taking the aluminum channel off. Apparently, it had already tilted a little. See #3.
3. Since the bottom generally does "lead" the top a bit, a total of 3 people worked out great for the task. My wife was at the button, and Dave was at the forward, lower rod while I was at the rear lower rod. We had her hit the RETRACT button and we guided the extending rods through the lower assemblies. Then we went to the top ones which were still about an inch out. She pressed the RETRACT button again and we got them a little further, but still not synched together by the time it stopped moving. We repeated this process a couple of times and everything finally came together. The top rods were not completely through the holes, yet the pump shut off and they were now in synch with each other. That is when we realized that the top of the slide was tilted in a bit (which elongates the train assembly and the rods are pulled back a bit. We gave the upper aluminum channels a bit of a shove, first the front, then the rear, and we got enough threads coming through to actually put the upper part of the slide in the right place by simply tightening the nuts on the rods. Then we put the nuts on the lower cylinders.
4. With a deep breath, I pressed the EXTEND button.
5. That slide has NEVER been so smooth and quiet as it glided itself into place. Back in and back out. Same result. Perfectly quiet and perfectly in synch. Ahhhh.
6. Two hours later, no creep. No creaking, no nothing. It just sits there doing what it is supposed to do: Staying in the fully extended position.
Tonight will be adult refreshment night. Total cost to get this problem properly tested, diagnosed and repaired was approximately $300, including the $108 Isolation kit. I could kick myself for doing without the slide for so long.
So, Scott, I'm done. You can have a go at the finished product if you like. As noted above, there were a couple of surprises and "Oh, I see" moments, but frankly, the entire process is pretty simple. Discounting all my fears, removing the header was the worst part. I suspect replacing the front lower would have been more difficult with the Couch. My dinette is back in, modified header is screwed in place, and a little cleaning and vacuuming is all that's left.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 04:17:03 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 04:17:03 pm
By the way, forget the wood block guides. Not helpful and not necessary.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 28, 2014, 05:32:16 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 28, 2014, 05:32:16 pm
Outstanding. Pretty exciting.
Please advise how long it took from the time you sent the cylinder until the time you got it back. I would like to get mine done before the end of Feb. or we will have to wait until we get to Casa Grande in March. the first week of Feb we are going tho the M&G plant for supplemental brake install so that will leave me 3 short weeks. Don't be surprised when I call during my cylinder removal and install.
It will take me a couple of days to get the doc back to you for review and stuff. First I must compare the draft I sent to you and the doc you sent back to me, make adjustments and add your new stuff.
Please advise how long it took from the time you sent the cylinder until the time you got it back. I would like to get mine done before the end of Feb. or we will have to wait until we get to Casa Grande in March. the first week of Feb we are going tho the M&G plant for supplemental brake install so that will leave me 3 short weeks. Don't be surprised when I call during my cylinder removal and install.
It will take me a couple of days to get the doc back to you for review and stuff. First I must compare the draft I sent to you and the doc you sent back to me, make adjustments and add your new stuff.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 05:38:08 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 05:38:08 pm
Outstanding. Pretty exciting.
Please advise how long it took from the time you sent the cylinder until the time you got it back.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Dave and Nancy Abel on January 28, 2014, 05:56:42 pm
Post by: Dave and Nancy Abel on January 28, 2014, 05:56:42 pm
Howdy Brad and Christine,
Congrats on getting this slide issue resolved!!! You have done a outstanding job with documentation and explanations. Although, we don't have a slide, I think, this string would give lots of folks confidence to tackle the slide creep problem.
Good Luck, Dave and Nancy A
Congrats on getting this slide issue resolved!!! You have done a outstanding job with documentation and explanations. Although, we don't have a slide, I think, this string would give lots of folks confidence to tackle the slide creep problem.
Good Luck, Dave and Nancy A
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 06:09:20 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 28, 2014, 06:09:20 pm
Howdy Brad and Christine,
Congrats on getting this slide issue resolved!!! You have done a outstanding job with documentation and explanations. Although, we don't have a slide, I think, this string would give lots of folks confidence to tackle the slide creep problem.
Good Luck, Dave and Nancy A
Although I devoted 3 months to this process, it really is a fairly simple and quick job. Getting the errant part identified is really about 2 hours worth of actual work with 2 testing processes, and then if it turns out to be a cylinder, removal and replacement of a cylinder, along with re-synching the system, takes only about another 2-3 hours.
I just hope to provide a solution and encouragement to others with 2002s.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 28, 2014, 07:08:20 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 28, 2014, 07:08:20 pm
Thanks Brad - I knew that you had the time line documented and if I read through the thread I would derive the answer but thought I would ask as I am lazy. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 29, 2014, 10:08:45 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 29, 2014, 10:08:45 pm
After seeing my slide still completely out after 30 hours now, today I sent a heartfelt thanks to Joe Portelli of HWH for all his help, reassurance and guidance. I sure couldn't/wouldn't have done this without him and his guidance. HWH has my loyalty, that's for sure.
I also spent part of the morning with my friend, getting an Isolation Kit installed in his 2002 to identify his issue. Hope it will be just a leaky solenoid, but I fear it may be the same lower rear cylinder.
I also spent part of the morning with my friend, getting an Isolation Kit installed in his 2002 to identify his issue. Hope it will be just a leaky solenoid, but I fear it may be the same lower rear cylinder.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 02:40:52 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 02:40:52 pm
New section of the slide creep issues. As you put the document together, Scott, maybe we can branch off with the solenoid repair, as that is what we have discovered on this second 2002. The Isolation Kit is really the first step in diagnosis and although his room creep seemed very similar to mine, it turns out his is the "other issue"...the solenoid valve(s).
We installed the $108 isolation kit in his coach yesterday, and 24 hours later, we now see a reading of 2500 PSI on the gauge. Also of note is that the kit removes and plugs the hose for the test, so there is NO room creep indicated at all. That 2500 psi only is pushing on the gauge.
Clearly this coach needs new solenoid(s) and not cylinder repair. I have put together and sent another email to Joe at HWH asking a few questions that need clarification. As soon as he answers, I will post it here. Then we will have the entire diagnosis and repair process for whichever failure causes room creep.
We installed the $108 isolation kit in his coach yesterday, and 24 hours later, we now see a reading of 2500 PSI on the gauge. Also of note is that the kit removes and plugs the hose for the test, so there is NO room creep indicated at all. That 2500 psi only is pushing on the gauge.
Clearly this coach needs new solenoid(s) and not cylinder repair. I have put together and sent another email to Joe at HWH asking a few questions that need clarification. As soon as he answers, I will post it here. Then we will have the entire diagnosis and repair process for whichever failure causes room creep.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 02:47:06 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 02:47:06 pm
Brad - Can do. Will use headings and sub headings somehow. With the Table of Contents up front any reader should be able to focus on either problem. Testing is important. I guess I should follow the testing process to eliminate the possibility of faulty solenoids. As stated some of mine have been replaced but do not know which ones. When you are finished with the test kit can it be sent to me? If so please advise my costs. At this juncture we should consider splitting costs. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 03:25:24 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 03:25:24 pm
I returned my test kit to HWH per Joe's instructions and he refunded it's cost, leaving me with only freight to pay each way. My friend Dave just got his yesterday and plans on keeping it as near as I can tell. The kit is certainly valuable to use as it is a simple process to install it. I actually wish I'd have kept mine.
As far as faulty solenoids being replaced, from what I've experienced, repair folks are guessing and not always doing as the HWH instructions state. Testing beats guessing.
At this point, I'm not positive if it is the Cylinder Extend or the Cylinder Retract solenoid that causes the creeping in. But with both of us having the same problem, one of our coach's had the Retract replaced, while the other's Extend was replaced! And it looks like my friend had his bedroom slide solenoid replaced instead of the main room. The HWH document says that when one valve has been diagnosed as a failure, both of the room valves should be replaced. Whether that is still their thinking, 10 years after those documents were printed, is something I've asked Joe to verify. The HWH price is listed as $182 for the valves on the most recent price list I have.
As far as faulty solenoids being replaced, from what I've experienced, repair folks are guessing and not always doing as the HWH instructions state. Testing beats guessing.
At this point, I'm not positive if it is the Cylinder Extend or the Cylinder Retract solenoid that causes the creeping in. But with both of us having the same problem, one of our coach's had the Retract replaced, while the other's Extend was replaced! And it looks like my friend had his bedroom slide solenoid replaced instead of the main room. The HWH document says that when one valve has been diagnosed as a failure, both of the room valves should be replaced. Whether that is still their thinking, 10 years after those documents were printed, is something I've asked Joe to verify. The HWH price is listed as $182 for the valves on the most recent price list I have.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 04:17:41 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 04:17:41 pm
Put in a call to HWH - Randy has been my contact. I will review issue with him and ask for the Kit to be sent.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 04:30:18 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 04:30:18 pm
One other point I missed. The solenoids that came with our coaches have 1/4" nuts to release the pressure. (Some of us got 1/4" socket tools in our Foretravel boxes, and others have the 1/4" socket built into the end of the dipstick.) But sometime in the past, HWH changed the valve construction so that the new ones have white plastic levers that just rotate up and out to release pressure and swivel down to close. If you have a mixture of valves, then you can see exactly which ones have been replaced.
The solenoids you see above the motor are the Cylinder Retract Valves. The ones above the tank are the Cylinder Extend Valves. I can't tell you how many times I've said the wrong thing, since when the cylinder is extending, it means the room is retracting. Arghh.
The solenoids you see above the motor are the Cylinder Retract Valves. The ones above the tank are the Cylinder Extend Valves. I can't tell you how many times I've said the wrong thing, since when the cylinder is extending, it means the room is retracting. Arghh.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 05:59:44 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 05:59:44 pm
TT Randy and the test kit is on the way. BTW; you are famous. Randy talked to Joe and he had mentioned your name to me. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 08:31:35 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 30, 2014, 08:31:35 pm
Famous probably means "annoying pest". LOL. I haven't had my last two emails responded to by Joe. I assume he is probably very busy. I got to talk to him on the phone only once thru this entire process, but he sounded very cheery and helpful. He always apologized for any delay in responding to the emails, and I assured him I wasn't in any hurry.
I think he thought he was finally done with me, but this second coach has left me with different questions for him, so I've had to bug him yet again.
I think he thought he was finally done with me, but this second coach has left me with different questions for him, so I've had to bug him yet again.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 10:26:23 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on January 30, 2014, 10:26:23 pm
Revised doc sent to you. Forgot to add the solenoid description above - sorry. I can add it when you review the doc.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 31, 2014, 12:26:59 am
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 31, 2014, 12:26:59 am
Revised doc sent to you. Forgot to add the solenoid description above - sorry. I can add it when you review the doc.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: John Haygarth on January 31, 2014, 11:15:04 am
Post by: John Haygarth on January 31, 2014, 11:15:04 am
I can now see it "HWH opens new repair facility in Lake Havasu" ^.^d ^.^d
John H
John H
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 31, 2014, 01:08:59 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on January 31, 2014, 01:08:59 pm
I can now see it "HWH opens new repair facility in Lake Havasu" ^.^d ^.^d
John H
I got my responses from Joe. It will take a bit of time before we can post our hands-on experience with the valve replacement, but here are my advance questions with Joe's answers:
Qestion 1. "Both the MI95.7603 Service Bulletin and the MI15.9502 Instruction sheets say that when a room is creeping in or out and it is determined a solenoid valve is at fault, both the Cylinder Extend and Cylinder Retract valves for that room should be replaced... Now that we have completed the test and know we have a leaking valve, SHOULD WE REALLY REPLACE BOTH VALVES? Or does this indicate only one of the valves need replacement? If so, which one? Extend or Retract?
Answer:
"If this coach is a four cylinder slide like your coach and the room was creeping in and you had the gauge on the manifold and it went to 2500 PSI then I have to say it is a pretty good bet that cylinder extend valve is the issue.... The sheets that you have seen do say to replace both of them, but honestly there is no reason to. We did that mostly for warranty purposes, it was easier to tell people to replace both of the valves instead of trying to explain which one to change. If this is a four cylinder slide the one you will want to replace is the cylinder extend valve, should be the one over the tank for that room. If you want to replace both valve that is fine but in my opinion it is a waste of money."
Question 2. Does HWH rebuild these valves, or do we need to buy new one(s)? I also want to verify that the correct part number is RAP90729 - Solenoid VLV Small QR.
Answer: "Yes we can repair those valves if you want to send it in for repair. The maximum it will cost for the repair is going to be $127.40 plus freight and it will take about a week or so to turn the part around. If you decide to send the part in you will need to call in here like you did for the cylinder and get an RGA#. Keep in mind that is the maximum it will cost for the repair. If it is just a bad seat or something like that it will not even come close to that.... If you want to replace the valve the RAP90729 would be the valve to use. It would cost you $182.00 each plus freight and we do have them in stock."
Question 3. Will opening the Retract AND Extend valves allow for this 2500 psi to be released so we can safely remove the kit? Clearly we don't want to try to take off the isolation kit under that much pressure.
Answer: "If you want to bleed the pressure off of the pressure gauge before you remove it you can open the cylinder retract valve (one over the motor) to bleed the pressure down."
Question 4. It looks like the valves just screw out and the replacements screw back in. I understand we need to make sure all old O-rings come out. It would appear to me that if the room is retracted (cylinders all extended) while the swap was made, the fluid loss would be minimized. Is that correct? Is there a recommended tool to do this?
Answer: "We do have a tool to remove them with but honestly I always just used Channel locks to remove them and put them back in. I will however for warn you that SOMETIMES when you remove the valve the seat stays in block. The way you know if the seat is in the block is when you remove the old valve and there is a sharp point on the end of the valve the seat is in the block. The way to get it out is to screw the old valve back on four complete revolutions and use a screw driver or something like that and go between the block and the valve and pop it out. DO NOT remove the seat off the new valve or the repaired valve to screw it on. If you do that you mess up all adjustments on the valve and the valve would have to come back in for repair or be replaced again."
And one final comment from Joe: "Before you change any of these valves you want to open both emergency releases on the valves to bleed all pressure down before removing them. It really doesn't matter if the room is in or out. "
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 01, 2014, 08:39:10 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 01, 2014, 08:39:10 am
Got it.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 02, 2014, 08:43:09 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 02, 2014, 08:43:09 am
Brad - Do you know what year HWH changed over to the new solenoid design?
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 02, 2014, 01:19:35 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 02, 2014, 01:19:35 pm
Brad - Do you know what year HWH changed over to the new solenoid design?
If you need any of these documents, they can be found by going to Welcome to HWH Corporation (http://www.hwh.com) and just entering them in the search box. Sometimes the "." is omitted, sometimes not.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 02, 2014, 03:15:15 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 02, 2014, 03:15:15 pm
Our coach, according to Holiday World in Houston, had solenoids replaced for the large slide in Aug. of 2012. Of course the Work Order doesn't say exactly which ones were replaced and they are of the old style. I guess that the old style could have been in the pipeline and they were used instead of the new cam style???????????????
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 02, 2014, 06:57:57 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 02, 2014, 06:57:57 pm
Our coach, according to Holiday World in Houston, had solenoids replaced for the large slide in Aug. of 2012. Of course the Work Order doesn't say exactly which ones were replaced and they are of the old style. I guess that the old style could have been in the pipeline and they were used instead of the new cam style???????????????
In any case, now that we know the process, if someone wants a service department to do this work, at least you know to ask them "What did the Isolation Kit pressure read after the bleed-through test?" before letting them just throw you a $200 part or 2 that may or may not fix the issue. And if you get a dumb look or some story that it "is always the solenoid valve(s)", then you can assess their credibility for yourself.
If I knew then what I know now, I would have had them give me back my old one (that turned out to not be the problem) so I could have sent it in to HWH for repair to have as a spare. Probably would have been a cheap rebuild if nothing was wrong with it.
I'm not sure, but aren't these the same valves in use on the leveling system?
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 05, 2014, 08:21:00 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 05, 2014, 08:21:00 pm
Got my kit today. Will take a look at the maniforld and try to figgure out where it goes. Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 05, 2014, 10:24:16 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 05, 2014, 10:24:16 pm
Here's your key document. Refer to room location and figure 2A. Another indicator is that the large room uses a larger hose at the manifold. Looking at the motor, the connection above the valve in the rightmost position is what you will take apart.
Re-wording their instructions,
EXTEND the slide.
Take the connection off the manifold
Put the valve on the hose. BE SURE IT IS OPEN!
Put the valve (and hose) back on the manifold
Have someone hold the EXTEND button and NOT RELEASE IT until you fully close the valve.
Take the connection off of the manifold, and put in the steel plug (plug is just cautionary, as the valve is closed)
Screw the gauge onto the manifold where you took the hose off.
Next morning, pray for a reading on the gauge of 500PSI+. That will tell you your testing is done and you need a new Room Extend solenoid valve (on the back of the manifold, over the motor, pretty much behind where the manifold connection was).
PS, another confirmation it is the valve at fault will be that you will also see that your slide has NOT crept in...if you see the pressure having gone into the gauge instead of pushing the room in.
Have fun, and you have my phone number!
Re-wording their instructions,
EXTEND the slide.
Take the connection off the manifold
Put the valve on the hose. BE SURE IT IS OPEN!
Put the valve (and hose) back on the manifold
Have someone hold the EXTEND button and NOT RELEASE IT until you fully close the valve.
Take the connection off of the manifold, and put in the steel plug (plug is just cautionary, as the valve is closed)
Screw the gauge onto the manifold where you took the hose off.
Next morning, pray for a reading on the gauge of 500PSI+. That will tell you your testing is done and you need a new Room Extend solenoid valve (on the back of the manifold, over the motor, pretty much behind where the manifold connection was).
PS, another confirmation it is the valve at fault will be that you will also see that your slide has NOT crept in...if you see the pressure having gone into the gauge instead of pushing the room in.
Have fun, and you have my phone number!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 06, 2014, 09:15:00 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 06, 2014, 09:15:00 am
Thanks Brad - Won't get into it today. Tomorrow. Thanks for the doc. Don't be surprised if I give you a call. ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 08, 2014, 02:19:27 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 08, 2014, 02:19:27 pm
Attached the valve test kit. the hardest part was getting my fat hands in that small place with an open end wrench to loosen the hose and attaching the needle valve assembly and then removing it and attaching the gauge. After about 30 mins the slide is slowly creeping in and the gauge shows "0". I will leave the Gauge attached for a few more hours. Soooo - I it looks like it's my turn to remove the dinette seats and cylinder for repair. All things considered the process is not too bad - so far. I will call HWH on Monday AM and check rebuild turnaround time.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 08, 2014, 10:44:48 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 08, 2014, 10:44:48 pm
I hope it turns out to be the one under the dinette...if not the even easier upper cylinders. Removing the couch looked like it would be an awful pain. But, yup, if it creeps in with the isolation kit in place, it isn't the solenoid.
When you remove the isolation kit, if there is still no pressure showing, you should not even have to release the valves to safely remove it. There should be only the same tiny little bit of fluid loss that you experienced in installing the kit.
On the positive side, you won't have tight quarters to work in for cylinder removal. I think the solenoids would take less time but be harder to do with big hands. LOL.
When you get around to needing it, I'll ship you one of my remaining "sample" RotorClips. ;)
When you remove the isolation kit, if there is still no pressure showing, you should not even have to release the valves to safely remove it. There should be only the same tiny little bit of fluid loss that you experienced in installing the kit.
On the positive side, you won't have tight quarters to work in for cylinder removal. I think the solenoids would take less time but be harder to do with big hands. LOL.
When you get around to needing it, I'll ship you one of my remaining "sample" RotorClips. ;)
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 11, 2014, 01:59:09 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 11, 2014, 01:59:09 pm
We have ordered the replacement cylinder this AM. Should be here in 12/14 days - might ship this week. The shop must build. The 4 cylinders are all interchangeable so we decided to get a new one and forego the next testing process of capping and plugging. We will replace the lower left cylinder and if it is not the correct one we will exchange with the next most likely cylinder. Randy @ HWH seems to feel that this is a good strategy. We will return the old cylinder to HWH for a 30% credit against the new one. I will also return the Test Kit for an additional credit - so the cost won't be too bad. We should be able to remove and replace the Old cylinder in about 4 to 5 hours total. This way the interior should be retracted and in disarray for one day only. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 11, 2014, 02:46:08 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 11, 2014, 02:46:08 pm
Sounds like a good plan, Scott. You'll enjoy swapping them all around. LOL. From what you stated, the one under the dinette really does seem to be the most likely.
We're still waiting for the solenoid valve from HWH for my friend's 2002, so nothing new to report on that front.
We're still waiting for the solenoid valve from HWH for my friend's 2002, so nothing new to report on that front.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 11, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 11, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
It looks like we will be in Casa Grande, AZ when we make the switch. We will get there on March 1st.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 11, 2014, 03:11:33 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 11, 2014, 03:11:33 pm
It looks like we will be in Casa Grande, AZ when we make the switch. We will get there on March 1st.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 11, 2014, 06:28:14 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 11, 2014, 06:28:14 pm
I'll keep that in mind. :))
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 12, 2014, 06:15:29 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 12, 2014, 06:15:29 pm
Ups delivered the new solenoid valve to my buddy, so at 2:00 we headed to his coach. First we took off the Isolation kit (which was still at around 2200 PSI...so we opened the retract valve and released the pressure), then we installed the new valve. By 3:30, I was back home, the new solenoid installed in his coach! Probably a total of an hour spent at the coach.
A couple of lessons learned:
Lesson 1. The LR slide extend valve is THE most difficult valve to get out. It is well tucked away nearest the wall and ceiling of the bay. There is also a fat hydraulic hose running across the top of it that must be lifted up a bit by person #1, while person #2 gets a smallish pair of channel locks around the end of the 1-1/2" valve. You only get a tiny bit of movement before you run into the ceiling and have to loosen your grip and re-establish it. It was VERY tight at the beginning, and stayed fairly tight almost all the way out. When I replaced the new valve, it screwed in 99% of the way by hand, needing just a nudge with the channel locks to finish it. Looking at the manifold, turning the solenoid body righty-tighty and lefty-loosy is the rule. No odd threading. BTW, as a left-hander, I crawled through from the opposite side of the coach and, laying on my right side, had pretty good access to the valve, both by sight and by feel. I'm thinking it might be more difficult to have to use your right hand.
Lesson 2. When you take apart the electric connector for the solenoid's wires, BE SURE YOU SOMEHOW MARK THE WIRE CONNECTOR THAT YOU TAKE OFF (a shrouded male connector with 2 pins inside). Because if you do not do so, when you get ready to plug your new valve back in, you will then discover that you have 4 identical connectors there to choose from. Then you will have to have someone release the bladder, press the extend button repeatedly while another person checks the 8 different pins to determine which of them is carrying power while the switch is pushed. The white connector wires are NOT the ones carrying power as you'd expect. It will be one of the black wires in one and only one connector...while the switch is being held down. What the three EXTRA connectors are for is unknown. This was a U320 with 2 rooms, yet still the extra wiring was present.
Were it not for the lesson learned in #2 above, we would probably have been done in less than 30 minutes. Now we just have to wait a bit and make sure the creep is all fixed and that there is no secondary issue with a cylinder.
The only other comment to make is that the drawing in HWH's MR55.2000 shows that new valves have 3 o-rings at the end and 2 o-rings near the body...and the drawing shows more o-rings on the old style valves. That does not seem to be true. Both the new and old valves have the same 3 rings at the end (2 are flat, the middle one is round) and 2 rings (one flat and one round) near the body.
Hopefully this is the end of the creeping room saga, Scott.
A couple of lessons learned:
Lesson 1. The LR slide extend valve is THE most difficult valve to get out. It is well tucked away nearest the wall and ceiling of the bay. There is also a fat hydraulic hose running across the top of it that must be lifted up a bit by person #1, while person #2 gets a smallish pair of channel locks around the end of the 1-1/2" valve. You only get a tiny bit of movement before you run into the ceiling and have to loosen your grip and re-establish it. It was VERY tight at the beginning, and stayed fairly tight almost all the way out. When I replaced the new valve, it screwed in 99% of the way by hand, needing just a nudge with the channel locks to finish it. Looking at the manifold, turning the solenoid body righty-tighty and lefty-loosy is the rule. No odd threading. BTW, as a left-hander, I crawled through from the opposite side of the coach and, laying on my right side, had pretty good access to the valve, both by sight and by feel. I'm thinking it might be more difficult to have to use your right hand.
Lesson 2. When you take apart the electric connector for the solenoid's wires, BE SURE YOU SOMEHOW MARK THE WIRE CONNECTOR THAT YOU TAKE OFF (a shrouded male connector with 2 pins inside). Because if you do not do so, when you get ready to plug your new valve back in, you will then discover that you have 4 identical connectors there to choose from. Then you will have to have someone release the bladder, press the extend button repeatedly while another person checks the 8 different pins to determine which of them is carrying power while the switch is pushed. The white connector wires are NOT the ones carrying power as you'd expect. It will be one of the black wires in one and only one connector...while the switch is being held down. What the three EXTRA connectors are for is unknown. This was a U320 with 2 rooms, yet still the extra wiring was present.
Were it not for the lesson learned in #2 above, we would probably have been done in less than 30 minutes. Now we just have to wait a bit and make sure the creep is all fixed and that there is no secondary issue with a cylinder.
The only other comment to make is that the drawing in HWH's MR55.2000 shows that new valves have 3 o-rings at the end and 2 o-rings near the body...and the drawing shows more o-rings on the old style valves. That does not seem to be true. Both the new and old valves have the same 3 rings at the end (2 are flat, the middle one is round) and 2 rings (one flat and one round) near the body.
Hopefully this is the end of the creeping room saga, Scott.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 12, 2014, 06:46:48 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 12, 2014, 06:46:48 pm
Congrats Brad - Glad to hear that you were successful. I will add the above stuff and get a revised doc off to you in the next few days. :D ^.^d
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Ed Pan on February 13, 2014, 04:25:58 pm
Post by: Ed Pan on February 13, 2014, 04:25:58 pm
Brad,
Thanks for all the detailed reporting re. this LR slide issue since I too have an '02 U320 with 2 slides. Sure helps understanding the whys and hows- specially when some of the info. fr the tech. sheets don't exactly jive with what one is staring at you at the exact instance. Nothing like a true and proven personal experience! Thanks a lot again!
Ed Pan
Thanks for all the detailed reporting re. this LR slide issue since I too have an '02 U320 with 2 slides. Sure helps understanding the whys and hows- specially when some of the info. fr the tech. sheets don't exactly jive with what one is staring at you at the exact instance. Nothing like a true and proven personal experience! Thanks a lot again!
Ed Pan
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 13, 2014, 05:15:16 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 13, 2014, 05:15:16 pm
Brad,
Thanks for all the detailed reporting re. this LR slide issue since I too have an '02 U320 with 2 slides. Sure helps understanding the whys and hows- specially when some of the info. fr the tech. sheets don't exactly jive with what one is staring at you at the exact instance. Nothing like a true and proven personal experience! Thanks a lot again!
Ed Pan
I can now tell you from experience that the behavior of the slide creeping looks identical whether it is a solenoid or a cylinder, so the only real way to know is that test kit which is less than the price of an hour's labor!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 06:47:42 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 06:47:42 pm
Brad - emailed doc to you.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 08:44:27 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 08:44:27 pm
Brad - Doc sent to Barry B.
Michelle/Moderator - I think that this thread is done. We have taken the gist of this thread and compiled a Document including an Index. As noted above we have submitted it to Barry B and are hopefull that he will include it in his wonderful web site. I do have the original document if you feel that it might be appropriate to include somewhere on this forum. Thank you for your most diligent work for all of us members. With out you we would be a mess. Steve too...... ;D
Michelle/Moderator - I think that this thread is done. We have taken the gist of this thread and compiled a Document including an Index. As noted above we have submitted it to Barry B and are hopefull that he will include it in his wonderful web site. I do have the original document if you feel that it might be appropriate to include somewhere on this forum. Thank you for your most diligent work for all of us members. With out you we would be a mess. Steve too...... ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 13, 2014, 08:49:37 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on February 13, 2014, 08:49:37 pm
As a little frosting on the cake, my friend Dave just called me and verified that 30 hours later, there is no slide creep any more on his U320. Replacing the one valve fixed his problem!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 09:02:05 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 09:02:05 pm
YEA - ^.^d
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Michelle on February 13, 2014, 09:16:21 pm
Post by: Michelle on February 13, 2014, 09:16:21 pm
Michelle/Moderator - I think that this thread is done. We have taken the gist of this thread and compiled a Document including an Index. As noted above we have submitted it to Barry B and are hopefull that he will include it in his wonderful web site. I do have the original document if you feel that it might be appropriate to include somewhere on this forum.
Scott,
The document would be a great asset to the Files section here on the forum. You should be able to upload it yourself. http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=165 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=165) and click on "add an item". Let me know if you run into any problems.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 10:32:43 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 13, 2014, 10:32:43 pm
Thanks Michelle - Done . ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Rich Bowman on February 14, 2014, 09:49:26 am
Post by: Rich Bowman on February 14, 2014, 09:49:26 am
Scott,
I've been following this thread with some interest. I'm in the middle of an upholstery renovation and just took my dinette and sofa out. The sofa is no harder to remove than the dinette except to get it out the door. If you have the same model sofa. Remove the front kick panel. Mine just lifts off. 4 bolts in the floor just like the dinette. Slide it forward and the two arms come off with 4 screws each. The back comes off with 4 bolts. Mine's is currently sitting in my living room.
If you want to get it completely out of the coach, you might have to remove the co-pilot seat to get the sofa base out the door. It came off the pedestal with 4 bolts, 2 screws and 1 electrical plug. Maybe 30-45 minutes tops to completely clear both out. Plus two people to maneuver the parts out the door. PM me if you need any other info.
Attached is what my sofa looks like.
Rich
I've been following this thread with some interest. I'm in the middle of an upholstery renovation and just took my dinette and sofa out. The sofa is no harder to remove than the dinette except to get it out the door. If you have the same model sofa. Remove the front kick panel. Mine just lifts off. 4 bolts in the floor just like the dinette. Slide it forward and the two arms come off with 4 screws each. The back comes off with 4 bolts. Mine's is currently sitting in my living room.
If you want to get it completely out of the coach, you might have to remove the co-pilot seat to get the sofa base out the door. It came off the pedestal with 4 bolts, 2 screws and 1 electrical plug. Maybe 30-45 minutes tops to completely clear both out. Plus two people to maneuver the parts out the door. PM me if you need any other info.
Attached is what my sofa looks like.
Rich
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 14, 2014, 10:29:40 am
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 14, 2014, 10:29:40 am
Thanks Rich - Hopefully I won't have to remove the couch to get to that cylinder. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 14, 2014, 04:24:40 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on February 14, 2014, 04:24:40 pm
Barry B. has added this doc to his website. It can be found at: 2002 HWH Slide Creep (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/slide_creep.html) as well as our own File section.
Thanks everyone for your input and patience. Brad you rock. ;D
Thanks everyone for your input and patience. Brad you rock. ;D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 02, 2014, 05:30:12 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 02, 2014, 05:30:12 pm
So, Scott: March first has arrived. Have you started the process yet?
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 02, 2014, 09:19:56 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 02, 2014, 09:19:56 pm
Hi Brad - I ordered the cylinder a few of weeks ago. When I checked back to verify shipment I was told that the new cylinder was not completed yet - they needed a part. The day b/4 we left Houston, Feb.27th, I received a call from them and the cylinder had shipped on the 25th and was due to arive on the 28th to Houston. Well I had advised HWH that if it didn't arrive by the 26th it would have to ship to Casa Grande. They were supposed to catch the shipment and re-route it. I suspect we should get it Monday/Wed. We have dentist appointments on the 6th in Los Algadones so I probably will not get into it until the week of the 10th.
I am tempted to drive up your way for your capable and knowledgeable assistance, but I should be able to git er done. :D
I am tempted to drive up your way for your capable and knowledgeable assistance, but I should be able to git er done. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 02, 2014, 09:45:14 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 02, 2014, 09:45:14 pm
I am tempted to drive up your way for your capable and knowledgeable assistance, but I should be able to git er done. :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 02, 2014, 09:50:30 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 02, 2014, 09:50:30 pm
It is true, misery does love company. I would like to add something witty but I am not the sharpest tack in the box and ........ :P
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Roland Begin on March 02, 2014, 10:13:28 pm
Post by: Roland Begin on March 02, 2014, 10:13:28 pm
Hey, we will be camped out on Ogilbi (incorrect spelling?) Road, well we will be tomorrow in any case. I am having a bunch of dental work dome in Algodones, give us a shout when you are in the area.
Roland
Roland
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 07, 2014, 01:29:28 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 07, 2014, 01:29:28 pm
Got the new cylinder, a couple of plugs and caps from a local Parker distributor. Need a little bit of wood for the support. All I have to do is decide when to Git R Dun. :-\
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 07, 2014, 04:37:06 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 07, 2014, 04:37:06 pm
Got the new cylinder, a couple of plugs and caps from a local Parker distributor. Need a little bit of wood for the support. All I have to do is decide when to Git R Dun. :-\
At least the header is rebuilt and easier to take down now, and I know the process.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on March 07, 2014, 05:25:50 pm
Post by: Jim Frerichs on March 07, 2014, 05:25:50 pm
Brad...no rest for the weary and no good deed goes unpunished. Besides that...life isn't necessarily fair.
Jim
Jim
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 07, 2014, 06:45:33 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 07, 2014, 06:45:33 pm
Brad...no rest for the weary and no good deed goes unpunished. Besides that...life isn't necessarily fair.
Jim
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 07, 2014, 09:08:23 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 07, 2014, 09:08:23 pm
Non-encouraging words to say the least. Just for questions sake - why not replace the solenoid valve and see what happens as opposed to doing the isolation test again? Probably getting into mine on Sunday. Expect a call....... :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 07, 2014, 09:14:24 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 07, 2014, 09:14:24 pm
Non-encouraging words to say the least. Just for questions sake - why not replace the solenoid valve and see what happens as opposed to doing the isolation test again? Probably getting into mine on Sunday. Expect a call....... :D
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: D.J. Osborn on March 08, 2014, 10:00:02 am
Post by: D.J. Osborn on March 08, 2014, 10:00:02 am
Here's some non-encouraging words. I had the slide out last time for about a week, and thought I noticed a slight creep in. So I brought it in for a day, then put it back out yesterday. Today, there was a creep noticeable on both ends. So I may be back to square one. I sent an email to Joe asking if I should re-test with the isolation kit (my friend Dave kept his for just such ocassion), or go straight to the caps test to see whether the rebuilt cylinder is faulty. ARGHHHHH!!!!
At least the header is rebuilt and easier to take down now, and I know the process.
Time to sip some of that wine you picked up on your last visit to Walmart!
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 08, 2014, 01:42:42 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 08, 2014, 01:42:42 pm
The isolation kit is back in and we await its results. Still too early in the day for that wine.
I posted on an old thread that I needed to clean out the purge valve and maybe if I get responses there, I'll do that while I wait. I even microwaved the desicant while I was fooling around there. Must be a mixture as I got some blue and some stayed white. In any case, after a total of about 4-1/2 minutes in the microwave, it has to be drier than it was (here in AZ...LOL). But the purge valve wants to stay open today.
I posted on an old thread that I needed to clean out the purge valve and maybe if I get responses there, I'll do that while I wait. I even microwaved the desicant while I was fooling around there. Must be a mixture as I got some blue and some stayed white. In any case, after a total of about 4-1/2 minutes in the microwave, it has to be drier than it was (here in AZ...LOL). But the purge valve wants to stay open today.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 08, 2014, 04:55:00 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 08, 2014, 04:55:00 pm
After 3 hours, there is no reading on the pressure gauge, nor is there any creeping in. I'm going to leave the gauge connected for at least a day and see if maybe the recent little creep was just some strange fluke. I have to admit to a little hyper-sensitivity on the issue.
If no reading and no more creeping, I think I'd blame a fleck of contaminant in the solenoid valve unless Joe tells me otherwise.
If no reading and no more creeping, I think I'd blame a fleck of contaminant in the solenoid valve unless Joe tells me otherwise.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 08, 2014, 10:31:57 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 08, 2014, 10:31:57 pm
Brad - Hmmmph - good news? Gearing up to do my cylinder tomorrow???
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 08, 2014, 10:36:42 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 08, 2014, 10:36:42 pm
Brad - Hmmmph - good news? Gearing up to do my cylinder tomorrow???
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 09, 2014, 06:20:54 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 09, 2014, 06:20:54 pm
Rear lower cylinder replaced. Success. No slide creep for 2 hours now. Usually we would be hearing some popping from the friction between the bladder and the slide as it was creeping in within the first 20 to 30 mins. and we would have to deflate and inflate the bladder so it wouldn't tear. No more slide creep. The hardest part was pulling out the dinette seats and replacing the bolts.
Only called Brad S. a couple of times regarding what he did and what I was doing. As usual he was available and was most helpful and reassuring. His instructions are great. Of course I had to call him a third time to advise that the operation was successful and the patient would live to see another day.
This process is just another indicator how important and helpful the FoFum members are. Thanks again to you all because without your assistance/input we would surely be in trouble and a have spent a bunch of $$$$ in sometimes needless repairs.
You guys and gals ROCK. :)) ^.^d
Only called Brad S. a couple of times regarding what he did and what I was doing. As usual he was available and was most helpful and reassuring. His instructions are great. Of course I had to call him a third time to advise that the operation was successful and the patient would live to see another day.
This process is just another indicator how important and helpful the FoFum members are. Thanks again to you all because without your assistance/input we would surely be in trouble and a have spent a bunch of $$$$ in sometimes needless repairs.
You guys and gals ROCK. :)) ^.^d
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 09, 2014, 06:43:12 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 09, 2014, 06:43:12 pm
Glad to hear the patient lived, Scott! Congratulations on the successful operation!
I took the Isolation Kit back off of my slide this morning after 24 hours and there was still ZERO pressure indication on the gauge...telling me the solenoid valve is ok and nothing leaked past it.
The slide remained solidly out with no creeping...telling me that the cylinders are ok, as they didn't move at all (like before).
I am going to verify with Joe Portelli as to what he thinks, but it would seem to me that perhaps some tiny particle might have been in the solenoid valve needle. I think I am still just overly sensitive as the creep wasn't really all that much.
I took the Isolation Kit back off of my slide this morning after 24 hours and there was still ZERO pressure indication on the gauge...telling me the solenoid valve is ok and nothing leaked past it.
The slide remained solidly out with no creeping...telling me that the cylinders are ok, as they didn't move at all (like before).
I am going to verify with Joe Portelli as to what he thinks, but it would seem to me that perhaps some tiny particle might have been in the solenoid valve needle. I think I am still just overly sensitive as the creep wasn't really all that much.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 09, 2014, 10:27:06 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 09, 2014, 10:27:06 pm
Brad - thanx again for your help.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 11, 2014, 07:12:02 pm
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on March 11, 2014, 07:12:02 pm
Positive news. The slide has been out for another day and no creeping in. Here is Joe's response from HWH:
"Yes it is certainly possible a flake of some sort might have gotten between the pin and seat and allowed the valve to leak a little, and when you ran the system it flushed it out.
At this point if it is not creeping back in I am going to say we are ok. Hopefully that was a one shot deal and now that the debris is back in the tank it will not bother you again. Keep me posted on what is going on with it."
I continue to praise HWH and Joe for staying with me on the issue. You can see by his language that Joe still takes some ownership of MY problem by saying "WE are ok" and wanting to be kept aware if it happens again.
"Yes it is certainly possible a flake of some sort might have gotten between the pin and seat and allowed the valve to leak a little, and when you ran the system it flushed it out.
At this point if it is not creeping back in I am going to say we are ok. Hopefully that was a one shot deal and now that the debris is back in the tank it will not bother you again. Keep me posted on what is going on with it."
I continue to praise HWH and Joe for staying with me on the issue. You can see by his language that Joe still takes some ownership of MY problem by saying "WE are ok" and wanting to be kept aware if it happens again.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: D.J. Osborn on March 11, 2014, 07:21:22 pm
Post by: D.J. Osborn on March 11, 2014, 07:21:22 pm
Great news. HWH seems to be an outstanding company. I seem to hear nothing but good things about their support of their products.
Title: Re: Large slide moves in.
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 11, 2014, 08:03:08 pm
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 11, 2014, 08:03:08 pm
Brad - Glad to hear it. Ours has not crept a bit.