This will be most useful for those who do not have an Aqua-Hot. If you never expect to camp in really cold weather for more than a day or two, you may also want to skip it.
We were planning on spending the Christmas break in Florida with my sister, but family matters interrupted those plans and on Monday, we left Big Bend NP for Colorado Springs. As you probably know, there is a BIG cold air mass in the central US. We had the choice of beating the cold in and getting set up or waiting a week or more and then perhaps dealing with traveling in temps in the 20s/30s. Hindsight being 20/20, we should have chosen that option.
When you are camping in really cold weather, the challenge is to have the resources to keep the coach plumbing from freezing and doing serious damage. For us, the driving factor is propane, and we don't have the ability to attach an external tank. This was an unexpected trip and there was no time to add the connections to allow that. This is also our first experience camping in severe cold with FREEDOM and I had no idea how much propane we would need to keep things warm.
We arrived in Pueblo, CO on Tuesday at about 1300, filled the fuel tank (anti-gel additive), water tank and propane tank and set up camp. It was about 65 degrees and blowing 30 MPH. I then started my prep for the approaching cold front. We picked Pueblo because it is usually 10+ degrees warmer than the Air Force Academy where we usually camp, and the KOA has on-site propane fill capability.
From Home Depot, I bought 3 sheets of 3/4", foil faced building foam. Try carrying that around in the wind! I used it to make panels inside the bay doors for the wetbays and cargo bays. There was also enough to do the front windshield and the shower skylight. I used duct tape on all the edges to cut down on the little round foam bits that get shed everywhere. We also put all the DayNight shades down to conserve heat.
I had one 200W MyHeat Lasko electric heater, and that went in the PS wetbay by the water pump. I also have a second one on order that should arrive today for the DS wetbay.
I had a remote read thermometer and kept an eye on the temp in the PS wetbay. The thermometer was sitting on the floor of the bay.
Tuesday night, the lows were about 20 and we ran the propane furnace on automatic (set to 45 degrees--about 50% on/off cycle) starting at about 0300 to keep the bays warm. I think the residual heat from the fresh water tank also helped keep the bays warm.
We have strip heaters in the AC units and ran them all day on Wednesday as the temps continued to fall, and they kept us comfortable and the bays above freezing. We also went out and bought an additional remote read thermometer (about $15 at Lowes) for the DS wetbay. I set it about mid-height in the bay and consistently got readings that were 10-15 degrees warmer than the PS wetbay which I attributed to the furnace vent in the bay. It turns out it was much colder on the floor of the bay.
I bought a 750W electric heater for the cargo bay--it, along with the electronics there seem to be keeping the bay above freezing.
During the afternoon (at about 15 degrees), I started the Cummins--just to see if I could, in case I needed to get propane before it really warmed up--about the middle of next week. It started but wasn't happy. Next time I will run the block heater even longer than the 4 hours I did this time, and also will try to wait for warmer temps if my propane supply allows.
By bedtime last night, the temp was down to about 8 degrees, and we were having to run the propane furnace about once an hour for 10-15 minutes to keep the wetbays in the high 30s.
In order to conserve propane, overnight, I set the alarm clock for every 90 minutes and got up and ran the furnace for about 15-20 minutes to pump heat into the bays. In between, we ran the strip heaters, and I tried to nap. By about 0300, the outside temp was down to 0 and I was getting up after an hour to run the furnace. It took about 45 minutes to get the temps back up from 35 degrees to 42 degrees before I shut it off and went back to bed.
I had lots of time in the middle of the night to think about how long my propane will last. It's not going to be up to the low 20s until Saturday (then cold again) and then up to the 30s until Tuesday. I was worried about needing to try to start the Cummins before Saturday to drive to the front of the RV park to get a refill.
After doing some research on the web (isn't wifi wonderful for filling those underutilized minutes at 0400 in the morning) and a few calculations, I think I have an answer. Under ideal conditions, a full propane tank will run my single 35K BTU furnace for about 79 hours. We have the water heater on electric and have not been using the stove much. So I should make it until at least Saturday and may be able to stretch it until Tuesday. So far today (15 degrees), we've mostly run on the heat strips and have not needed to use much propane.
Today, I bought an additional 750W heater for the PS wetbay. The 200W heater was fine at 15 degrees but wasn't cutting it at 0. I also moved the thermometer in the DS wetbay down to the floor.
If you're going to camp in very cold weather, the FT is a great vehicle. Camping in weather above 20 degrees should be pretty easy. But at lower temps, there are a lot of single point failures that could cause you real problems. Your furnace has to work and you need propane. Also in my case, the room slide has to work and the Cummins needs to start. Hope this helps you be prepared. It's going to be 0-10 degrees for the next 5 nights. Wish us luck!
If there are any major updates, I'll post again later this week,
Rich
Rich:
I am setting 80 miles north of you (Castle Rock) and have been using my '92 U240 as an office when not traveling. Went through last winter and the current cold spell with the front and back heaters set on 55 degrees with no freezeups of any kind.
That said, I am going to install some of your ideas because today at 5 degrees it was hard to get the cabin above about 60.
Thanks for the ideas.
Al
Rich:
Forgot to add that last winter I was using about 30 gallons of propane every 3-4 weeks. Not bad from my point of view.
Al
Rich
In your calculations, 79 hours - continuous, correct?
I have seen on the fourm 1- 2 gallons a day @ 30
2 - 3 gal @ 20
3+ below 20
@60 gal tank(80% fill)= 20+ days?
I have heaters in my 3 bays also - 12 in st louis a week ago, kept it 34-44 on my temp guages.
Fouroureye,
I did my calculation (79 hrs) based on a 129 lb tank as listed in the specs for my coach. That way it doesn't matter how cold it is, you just have to have an idea of how long you are running the furnace each day.
I didn't try to convert to gal. But my calculation would be about 30 gal capacity on my U270. I wouldn't want to get much below 10 gal, just so I have some reserve in case I can't get to the propane refill for a day or two. ie. I don't ever want to see the propane monitor on the Javalina in the red in this kind of weather. In the summer--not a problem.
Al,
Glad you're doing OK in the cold. The floor above the two bays with the heaters is noticeably warmer than the front or rear floor. Should help with the heat in the living area. If your have any questions, pm me. I'm just cooling my heels here waiting for the weather to warm up.
Rich
Placement of the thermometers in the bays can have a big effect on the temperature readings. The floor of a bay may be at 20F while the top of the bay may be at 70F. The 200W electric heaters with fans will help equalize temperatures and keep temperatures at uniformly safe levels.
During the most recent three years we spent a few days in Billings, MT, around January 1 in our U295. Taking no particularly actions to conserve energy, we used about 4 gallons of propane per day when ambient temperatures were 0 to 10F. We kept the interior of the coach around 70F. We used the two propane furnaces plus a some additional electric heat in the basement. I replaced a couple of the "wide open" furnace registers on the rear furnace with adjustable registers so I could direct a bit more warm air to the basement. Furnace specifications call for at least two (maybe 3 ?) fully open 4" registers to allow sufficient air flow.
When we expect to start the engine at temperatures below 25F, we leave the block heater on for several hours. The usually means we turn it on at about 10:00 p.m., for a 7:30 a.m., start time.
We carry a No Freeze Water Hose - Eliminate Water Line Freeze (http://www.nofreezewaterhose.com) for filling the fresh water tank during freezing weather. We always use fresh water from the tank.
Wouldn't it be nice if all the lines in the coach were that same no freeze (or at least no freeze damage) hose line stuff?
Old bluebirds wrapped every hose in the coach with heat wire. And the tank walls had heating elements molded in and the lead acid batteries had heating plates.
Bob
Rich - don't forget, they only fill propane to 80%.
I'm a REALLY new member of this Foretravel club - only had our coach 3 weeks today. I have a lot of questions... Forum has been a BIG help.
Our coach is parked in our driveway, outside, exposed to the weather. It is hooked up to a 50 amp outlet. Since our local temps are currently in the lower 20's, I have taken most of the same precautions you describe. 3 electric heaters; one in each end of the wet bay and one in the main storage bay. Rear propane heater set on 55F. I can stick my head out the back door of the house and hear it cycling on and off. Seems to be doing the job, so far.
Interesting to read about you lining the bay doors with foam sheets (funny picture: you carrying them in the windy conditions. I've been there) I wonder why I don't see more reference to people lining the inside of the bay doors with some kind of insulation. Seems like it would be advantageous in both very hot and very cold weather. Would help stabilize the temps inside the bays. Doesn't have to add a lot of weight, depending on material choice. Lining the inside of the generator compartment door (located behind the driver side front wheel on my coach) with sound deadener would help silence the generator noise. Seems like a no-brainer to me. What am I missing?
As to your propane situation, you might check around that local area for a propane delivery service that would make a "house call" at your coach. I know in a lot of camp grounds they have access to companies that do that. Would save you having to start the engine. Worth a try...
Good luck, and hope the cold breaks soon!
I think the compartment doors do have thin insulation in them. A little help but obviously not for serious conditions.
Was at -32 one trip in an ored with all the tanks exposed under it. Not a good idea. Tanks full of ice. When full we were done. Back to pheonix to thaw
And it was windy some.
Compartment doors insulated? I know they are thicker,so if not insulated w foam they are sealed and therein have an air gap which is one of the best insulators.
The bulbble foil insulation is 1/4" and is r2-4 simple to stick on.. I think that's a good idea.
Rich may be on to something. Just a thought if the basement is heated then heat rises.. the floor and thereby the living spaces. Instead of looking at minimums.. I'm gonna increase my temps below-electric heaters on 45 know, turning it up to 70 for a couple days in cold st Louis see the difference.
I'm running the rear furnace and the front electric heat now. We just called our propane supplier and asked them to come out Monday to fill the coach's tank and check/fill the house tank. The coach is just below 1/2 right now, but with the high temperature for the next several days only 28, I'm guessing that there will be plenty of room for more propane in the coach my Monday. Sure don't envy the poor guy who has to be out filling propane tanks in this cold.
Fouroureye,
You're absolutely right! I just went out to check my heaters, and took a closer look at the compartment doors. They are double thickness, and filled with foam. Must be pretty well insulated already, so don't know if that could be improved upon. Shows how much I have to learn about these coaches. Back to the drawing board.
In a pinch could the rear furnace blower not be rigged to run with the propane off so that heated air from the coach be circulated into the bays via the cold air return? Heat would be provided by space heaters or AC heat strips.
FWIW
Keith
Keith,
My thermostat has a fan-on function. I just was thinking about that. The air upstairs should be warmer, no matter what the outside is and eventually it will equalize with the basement temp - just like a house does, so I gonna turn the rear to the on position.
So far, I can tell a difference in the floor temp with my digital laser of about 8 degrees and it has only been 6 hours since I increased the temp of the electric heaters.
I actually cut the foam so it fit in the bay opening and then closed the doors. It would be pretty nice if there were some way to apply it to the inside of the doors. The foam has the reflective film facing into the compartment.
I don't think I can run the furnace fan at the same time the overhead strip heaters are working. I have thought about it though.
I didn't register that you only fill the propane tank to 80%. I'll take that into account in my planning.
After a couple of long nights watching temps, I think we've about got the heat thing worked out. This morning, everything below was comfortably warm although the inside of the coach was pretty chilly--outside temp at about 0 degrees. This was running the heat strips all night. It was hard to get things warmed up inside even using the propane furnace until the outside temp got to about 10 degrees.
Right now, I'm up to 5 electric heaters in place. PS wetbay has a 200W behind the panel covering the water distribution manifold and a 750W w/thermostat in the water pump section. One 750W in the cargo bay. One 750w w/thermostat in the DS wetbay. One 1500W in the living area plus the overhead AC strip heaters.
Temp outside is going down to -1 tonight--currently about 10 degrees at 1930. The wetbays are showing mid-50s and it is comfortable in the coach. I'll have the wetbay thermometers on my night stand and will be checking every 1-2 hours to monitor conditions.
Thanks for all the inputs,
Rich
Thanks for sharing your experience Rich. I can't really add any constructive advice to the subject, and I'm only reluctantly reading about it now (being from San Diego, I was always of the mindset that talk about cold-weather didn't apply to me ;D ). The plan was always to go where the sun is shining and where it's warmer... However, temperatures outside around here are making me think that it's much better to be armed with knowledge, so I appreciate you taking the time to document your experience.
Don & Tys
I installed a Blue Flame ventless propane heater in our coach, believe it is about 20K BTU. Doesn't do anything for the basement but it keep the inside of the coach toasty. Have not had the coach in zero degree weather but am believe it would keep the coach warm.
Roland
Our 91GV has heat tapes installed on all internal piping and they do a great job of keeping pipes from freezing in cold weather. Biggest problem is the drain valves, and a portable heater,or heat tape, will fix those. Does anyone else have the factory heat tape installation?? Thanks and have a great day ---- Fritz
I'm currently in Aurora where we have hit -15 over the last couple of days with a high of 7.
All that I have done is put 2 75w trouble lights down in the wet bay and 1 in the pump bay/1 in the plumbing manifold bay. The actual volume of air that is being heated is quite small and doesn't require much heat as long as there aren't any bigger air leaks. Haven't had any issues with freezing up though my PEX tubing is wrapped in foam insulation. The most important thing is to take weatherstripping and seal up the openings around the electrical cord slot at the bottom of the bay door.
If you use extra heaters inside the furnace will not come on enough when it is really cold out to keep the lower bays warm. If you gave Aquahot then there is a thermostat in the water bay itself, so that helps but the propane guys do not have that.
Mine does. It was custom ordered by the owner of Tiger Run in Colorado.
I did forget to mention that I have two 3" thick foam sponges pressed in the opening where the 50A shore cord goes out the bottom of the wetbay to seal the warm air leaks there.
Also, with a 200W heater (with fan) in the water pump area, I still had some ice on the floor of the bay. There is a lot of temperature stratification from top to bottom in the compartments when it is very cold.
Last night it did not get as cold I predicted (only down to 10) and we stayed very toasted, both top and bottom. It is amazing how much difference 10 degrees can make.
Rich
If there is that much stratification would a regular little fan help to move the air around a bit and give a more uniform temperature throughout the bay. I know the electric haters have fans in them but they don't move a lot of air. Just a thought.
Roland
When in freezing overnight or daytime temps, we follow Rich & Peggy's plan and turn on our four Lasko 200 watt personal heaters.
Amazon.com - Lasko #100 MyHeat Personal Ceramic Heater - Space Heaters (http://www.amazon.com/Lasko-100-MyHeat-Personal-Ceramic/dp/B003XDTWN2)
When we saw these heaters at Walmart several years ago, we instantly bought four to replace our four 100-watt bulbs that we have been using for many years to keep our four water bay areas from freezing. Bulbs were inside a plastic cage to try to keep things from touching them and possibly starting a fire. Our heaters work great and are the perfect solution for our propane furnace coach.
The furnace did a poor job of keeping bays warm, as it only put a little hot air in a few places and only when the furnace was running. Between furnace cycles, the bay cooled down much faster than the inside of our coach. We monitor the bay temps with a wireless thermometer that has three wireless sensors.
We seldom use the furnace as we prefer to use two small two-speed (900 & 1500 watt) floor electric space heaters to keep the inside of our coach warm. Heaters are easy to store when not in use and have a tip-over shut off button on the bottom. Bay and inside heaters are plugged into electric outlets that are not powered by inverter to prevent battery depletion if inverter inadvertently turns on. Non-inverter outlets are located in different places in our coach and were originally wired for washer-dryer, refrigerator & vacuum cleaner, so we just ran extension cords that are plugged into these outlets, to be used for heaters.
Run a 12" fan sitting on dash to blow air against inside of windshield to prevent condensation. Some forward MCD shades are left up, and all windows are wiped down in the morning of and condensation.
We have several $9 Harbor Freight water alarms strategically placed to notify us of any water intrusion or leaks. Bottom inside step near hinge alarm goes off sometimes from condensation or heavy rain.
Water Overflow Alarm (http://www.harborfreight.com/water-overflow-alarm-92334.html)
When temps drop to single digits, we put a large piece of Reflectix to seal in all plumbing, across the inside of the bay door opening. With heater and wireless thermometer on the other side of the Reflectix, we can know how the space is holding up in very cold temps.
The World's Largest Manufacturer of Reflective Insulation and Radiant Barrier (http://www.reflectixinc.com/)
We removed bottom sink drawer to let room air flow into plumbing space.
Interesting thread. As a former cold weather user long ago I am wondering how well my aqua hot coach actually does as far as tankages in serious cold weather?
Bob
I understand for those living at the time in cold conditions, but am curious about those that posted that have their coach in their driveways and running heat in them- why don't you drain and winterize rather than pay electric/propane?
Can't answer for others, but for us we want the option to be able to jump in our new-to-us coach and take off on a trip with minimum hassle. We have several short trips tentatively planned for the next few months. This extreme cold weather is unusual for our area (desert West Texas), and will probably be short-lived. We do not feel it is worthwhile to have to go through the full winterizing/de-winterizing routine (perhaps several times), at least this year. For us, paying a little extra for the electric and propane is worth the convenience of being "road ready".
Like cjak says, we keep our coach ready to go year round. Living in Texas has its rewards. We use our coach every month of the year.
I put mine in the garage and put on the radiator. I can run anytime that way except when there is white stuff on the roads. It can be on the ground but not on the road as a rule. I usually head south for a week or two and then home. Going to Nac in Jan and then hope to hit FL in late feb or early march. Winterizing is hard to use it when you want too and that is why I did not winterize but ran the heat till I built the garage. I did winterize a few times but then it was put up for the whole winter.
While we don't have the milder weather that you folks do down in Texas, we have one unique thing here in the KC area. The area has several underground facilities for storage. They've converted older areas of mines and rent out spaces. The climate stays at 58 degrees year round so no need to winterize. This is a strong likely hood for our storage needs when "Mr Right" comes along.
Larry
In our A-H coach we have never taken any precautions in the bays and have never experienced any freezing with temps down to the mid-teens.
Ok temp in st louis fri night 8
temps in bays at 55 after 24 hrs turning up temps on electric heaters.
Warmer floors, top heaters not running as much.
Looks like this might be something to consider.
For what it's worth.
For the past week, nights have been around 0. Coldest so far was -15. (all temps F). I installed an 'Extend-a-stay' hose and a 100# (25Gal) propane tank. The tank is on a Doctor's office beam scale so I can weigh it daily and track my usage.
I have a single 150W light bulb in the water entry bay, and a freeze-proof (electrically heated) hose. I use no electric heat except the light bulb in the water bay, and keep the thermostats set at 72. I have been comfortable and no freeze problems all week. Propane consumption is less than 3.5 Gallons ( 15 #) / 24 hours calculated at 4.2 #/Gal.
My Dometic freezer doesn't freeze, even with the 'cold ambient' switch on, but other than that, I can't be much happier unless I was in Arizona.
Stay Warm everybody.
:))
It got down to -3 last night here in Lincoln Nebraska and our coach did just fine. I did put a 75 watt bulb by the water pump and another in the wet bay. 2 years ago we were here and it got down to -12 and the only thing that froze was the water valve for the icemaker. My fault. should have turned off the valve under the sink and drain the line. This year I turned of the valve and drained the line, so should be okay. It started snowing just now so will have to break out the snow shovel.
So Red. From your tagline, it looks like you've got a 115 ft coach if the bumpers are touching.
Nice!
:))
Yes I guess that is a little deceiving. Actually we only have the 40 ft 03 know as we have sold the other 2 coaches. We have really enjoyed each of the coaches, but we like the 03 the best. I would not have anything but a foretravel
Its interesting that those who have seen a lot of coaches really prefer the Foretravel.
That being said if a 40' 1991 marquis turned up I would be tempted. Showed cm one and you could see he was impressed. Probably why the coaches got prettier over time. Blame me.....
Bob
Having worked on many different brands will say that the beaver interior wood work was pretty spectacular
Reading this thread makes me very thankful we have an Aqua-Hot. It is so nice to use diesel and not to have to chase down a source for propane refill. The quiet operation of the heat exchangers, as well as having the bays heated (either directly by the Aqua-Hot or by the dedicated heat exchanger) is also extremely nice.
It got down to -10 last night in Lincoln, Ne and we were snug as bugs in a rug. Nothing frozen. This is such a great coach. Love being in our foretravel.
Red, now you know why we left Lincoln, Nebraska! That's home for both Jo Ann and me (both of us still have family there), but it is just too cold in the winter and too hot in the summer.
I'm on my way to HWH. As I sit here in Des Moines between a couple of trucks for the night reading these posts a couple of things interest me. So far the water bay temp has been in the low 50's with the remote on the floor of the bay next to the water pump. A point for the Aqua Hot there. It's supposed to get down to zero tonight here so more points if this thing works all night like that.
I did discover as I stopped here to get some rest that the electric blanket doesn't like the inverter so I started the generator. I just filled up and put some power service in the tank so I feel good about fuel. We like sleeping in a cold room but getting into a warm bed. By leaving the gen set on I can leave the electric block heater on as well. When I left home, with the aqua hot and the electric the Cummins started as if I'd just shut it down.
Should have read Red Tractor's post about the ice maker a day sooner. Yesterday I was gone from the coach about an hour and came back to a flooded kitchen floor. The valve on the ice maker had frozen, cracked and thawed and all the water was coming in under the fridge. We carry a wet vac for such emergencies and it just took some time I'd rather have spent reading a book. Wonder why that valve couldn't be under the sink or under the fridge where it wouldn't freeze?
I hope all goes well and HWH can solve our issues. Drove all the way here with the level light on and the bell dinging at times. Haven't tried the slides in a few weeks. Last time didn't think I'd ever get them in to leave.
I have driven with that light and bell too. Good luck.
Might be a good idea, in really cold weather conditions, to turn your water pump off except when actually using it. That way, if you do spring a leak from a cracked pipe or whatever, at least you will be there to immediately deal with it. Just something to consider.
We never leave the coach with the water pump turned on, we always shut the thing off before we leave the coach and when we go to bed.....except when we forget, and guess when something decides to leak. Water is my nemesis. It's like the plumbing is telling me hahaha you forgot.
Roland
As I see a lot of experience here maybe I can ask a question. I see two temp type switches on my dometic side by side refer in my 97. One outside one inside.
What powers them and how and when do they need to work?
Thanks bob
Since we want to leave our water pump off when leaving coach, I would sometimes wonder when walking down the steps, if we remembered to turn the switch off. So we ran a water pump wire to the front door and now I have a switch and LED by the door, just like we have at the kitchen sink, and now we know...
I will report that with the bitter cold single digits last night in Des Moines everything was fine this morning with the exception of the bathroom lavatory frozen, both hot and cold. It had to be below the floor so I guess 50 degrees isn't hot enough in the bay to keep the north side of the bay warm. I've been in the HWH shop all day today and it thawed out with no leaks. I will turn up the thermostat on the water bay before I leave here tomorrow. I am camped inside their warm shop tonight.
2 years ago while we were in Nebraska our ice maker valve froze and broke. Luckily that morning when we left the coach I had turned off the water pump. When we came back later that afternoon it had warmed to 45 degrees. My wife turned on the water pump and hollered at me that there was water coming out from under the refrigerator. I was outside and hollered back at her to turn off the pump as I knew right away what had happened. This year I cut a piece of foam board to fit the power cord door and have a 60 watt bulb in there and also a 60 watt bulb over the water pump and so far no problems.
You may want to try fans in the basement to be sure the heat gets to the right places. The register fan may not be providing sufficient circulation. Also, verify that the frozen area is not inside a cabinet "upstairs." A closed cabinet on an outside wall can get very cold.
Looks like the lavatory is right over the rear wheel. Not sure how the line is routed below the floor.
The cabinet was warm inside so it was definitely below somewhere. The lavatory is half way on the manifold ano nothing else was frozen so it wasn't there.
I bet turning up the aqua hot down there will solve it. The fan blows downward and probably just didn't run enough at the temp I had set in the bay.
I took my sensor that is located in the water pump area and placed it on the floor so it is in the coldest area of the bay or you can also place it outside the bay and then it will really be in the cold air.
You just answered my question on how high the basement thermostat needs setting to prevent freezing in the bays. How cold was it?
Bob
As an amusing aside to all this. I have a friend who is still at the Great Lakes navy base campground with a SOB. Monday night it was 45 deg inside and 60 deg in the bays, outside 2 deg. Slight imbalance in heater distribution. Said he is thinking of moving downstairs!
Keith
We were at 0 degrees last night and a couple of nights ago -10 degrees no problems
My basement is staying 45 on both sides in the back 58 in the middle and 73 in the front where inverter and agua hot is. Coach is toasty 74 thru out dispel side running maybe total time of 25 min per hour 5 outside
-10 Monday night and Tuesday night, we have left there for warmer climates, are east of Kansas City and right now 34 degrees, looking forward to getting back to Florida
Georgia is expieriencing a very cold winter so far. I have done a good job keeping the coach warm. I wish I could say the same for my basement.
We were gone a couple of hours yesterday, and when we walked back into the house heard water running. Found the basement somewhat flooded. Spent the evening getting up water. Glad we were only out a couple of hours. Could have been alot worse.
I am curious how those with heaters in the pump compartment get them in sitting up right. I bought one but would have had to place it on a block of wood or something to keep it level. I instead put a 100W bulb in there. Anyone who could please post a pic.
Jerry and Nanci,
Were you running your furnaces? This should have protected you. Could it have just been a water leak that could have occurred anytime?
To answer your question, I used a bracket to mount under the water heater, angled down. I think I have more space there than you due to my 6 gallon water heater(6 gallons).
Two things to watch for:
1. Being too close to something and burning or melting it (not to mention a fire).
2. Electrical shock from a 120VAC device below a water heater (ie leaks) and near pressurized water plumbing (spray).
To address item 1, I did a test with the heater running continuously for several hours and monitored the process. That gave me the confidence it was far enough away.
To address item 2, I put a GFI outlet in the circuit. The outlet in the compartment (closest to water heater) is not on the bathroom's GFI circuit on my coach.
Because I live in Idaho now I have a permanently installed system with an thermal switch mounted on the end of a chord where I can place it right on the water pump head. I also have a remote wired thermometer in the same location. I used a two gang box with the GFI on one side and a light switch on the other. The light switch bypasses the themoswitch for testing. I have two of these systems installed: one for water pump, the for sewer drain area. I got the thermoswitches by busting apart two of these: Amazon.com: Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Thermostatically (http://www.amazon.com/Farm-Innovators-TC-3-Thermostatically-Controlled/dp/B0006U2HD2) which I purchased at Home Depot.
An alternative device might be the power chord type of heaters for pipes: Amazon.com: Easy Heat AHB-019 Cold Weather Valve and Pipe Heating Cable, 9 feet: (http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Heat-AHB-019-Weather-Heating/dp/B00002N6MB/ref=sr_1_1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1391191807&sr=1-1&keywords=freeze+protection+for+pipes) Would work for tight spaces, already has a thermoswitch, and no fire hazard. It would rest on the bottom (coldest area) so I would think a fan would be unnecessary.
P.S. I forgot to mention I had to disassembly the heater to make sure the screws for the bracket didn't damage anything.
I had to move my coach from its usual storage site due to some work that the property owner was doing. I am pretty confident that I had drained all the water from the system and filled the traps with antifreeze so two nites not plugged in with heaters hopefully did no damage. In normal times I would not have been so thorough in making sure system was dry but I am glad I did this year. Should I move to Alaska where it is warmer ? :) And BTW, without block heater but with boost the old Cummins fired up on third turn this AM at about 25 degrees after overnite of 15 or so.
Gary B
A good practice is to always turn off the water pump when leaving the coach. Then if something goes awry you will have a lot less mess to clean up.
Roland
I second that, don't ask me how I know!
Richard B
FWIW - I winterized this year but for learning purposes I kept two of the 200 watt electric heaters running, one on each side of the bay. Inside un-heated shop that generally doesn't get below 10 degrees the two heaters didn't keep it from freezing in the bay. (Furnace not running but inside kept around 50 degrees with a electric heater.) As a side note, heaters with electronic controls don't come back on by themselves if the power goes off.
John,
What I found with the busted pipe in my basement (my home) was the insulation had dropped and the air got to the pipe.
The odd thing about all this is the basement was warm and 1/3 of the pipe was exposed. I am not sure I will ever understand this.
I will be glad to see spring.
We've been consistently below zero (including a few days that didn't get above 0F, last night was -17F and tonights supposed to be -20F) at night here without any sort of letup and I've found another weak spot in the Foretravel cold weather armor.
The first thing that I've had freeze solid so far has been the fresh water fill pipe that runs underneath the black and gray water tanks and basically gets no heat, being sandwiched between the bottom of the tanks and the floor. I was aware that this was going to be a problem area and had fished a piece of 1/2" PEX over the top of the tanks but never bothered to hook up the new line until today when it froze solid. It is difficult to warm up the fresh water fill pipe so I just cut it off and used shark bite couplings to attach the new pipe and heat traced everything. Heat tracing is pretty much a necessity if you are going to be in sub-zero temperature for an extended duration.
Also the plug in thermostats that I bought become a bit flaky and return to their original settings of 62F occasionally which isn't warm enough to keep everything from freezing in the bays once it gets below -10F for awhile. When it is that cold, I just plug the Lasko heaters straight into the receptacles and let them run nonstop.
When I head home for Christmas, I'm going to do a much better job of running all new heat trace to cover everything in the bays, including the waste water valves and pipes. They have not frozen solid but they are slushy when you initially start to dump the tanks and will need some additional heat and insulation if it gets much colder.
Also, at subzero temperatures, you can forget about starting the engine without running the engine block heater all night. Turning it on 2 hours before you are ready to go won't work.
I woulda been ready to go (south) about 50 degrees ago! :P
We plan to visit Kansas City, MO, for Christmas and Billings, MT, for New Years. We bought the FT so we could go north to visit family any time of the year. We've done a similar trip three times in the past and had experiences similar to those of rsihnhold. We've not had any freeze damage yet.
I will run a couple of 200W heaters constantly in the basement when the temperature is below freezing for extended periods of time. That will apply whether we are moving or parked. I'll check temperatures in the bays and use bigger/more heaters if required. I don't use thermostats on the basement heaters. If it's cold enough to require a heater, it will run constantly. I'll also adjust house furnace thermostats so that the rear propane furnace runs regularly because it provides heat to the basement.
Circulation of air in the basement is important. The air stratifies. I've observed temperatures near 70F at the top of a bay and near 20F on the floor of the bay. Freezing problems are often very localized.
I agree that leaving the block heater on for several hours is a requirement for reliable starting of the big engine in temperatures below 25F.
Also, be sure to check and adjust tire pressures appropriately if you plan to drive in cold temperatures. Pressures will drop as temperatures drop. (Yes, I've aired up the tires at 0F on a cold morning on the plains of Kansas.)
How do you deal with the condensation inside the coach in cold weather? The temperature of the fiberglass skin and the window glass is below the dew point. Condensate runs down the inside of the walls and saturates the insulation until it soaks through the wood paneling starting at the bottom of the wall and then progressing upward, most noticeably along the diagonal members of the aluminum skeleton inside the wall. The windshield will have a thick layer of frozen condensate on the inside of it by morning. Do you guys run dehumidifiers or something?... If so how do you deal with all those nosebleeds? ...just wondering
Robert, when it is going to be below 32, we turn on our 200 watt Lasko personal heaters. We think it hard to protect difficult to reach areas so we use four heaters (two on each side) to better insure that all water area are protected. Since we are in our motorhome, we choose to turn them on and off ourselves. Four heaters draw less than 7 amps and we plug them into an outlet that is never on inverter to protect from drawing house batteries if shore power is lost.
If, as it seems , the posters here are on shore power I might install battery heaters.
Always thought about using a second layer on non dual pane windows.
Older ftx's had a roll up Mylar shade next to the glass that helped greatly. Then lined heavy draw shades.
We seem to be pushing the limits on rving.
Which is good.
As we are dry campers, on thing I have done on the Lazy Daze and one Sprinter was to add a line from the hot water line furthest from the water heater back to the fresh water tank, with a selinoid valve in line. This gave us hot water without running water down the drain. Once on each rig, the valve got left open longer than it should have and we ended up with the fresh water tank warmed (not hot). This may give a pretty large warm body in the basement if needed. Just a thought.
Regarding toyman's suggestion: using the water heater to heat the fresh water tank sounds like a great way to heat the basement. The water heater can provide a lot of heat and the fresh water tank can distribute it throughout the basement. With a three way heater, you could heat the basement with electricity, propane, or engine heat.
Regarding Scott's question about condensation: We've not had big problems with condensation. We do have double pane windows which helps. Leaving a ceiling vent slightly open and the small window near the passenger's chair slightly open have seemed to help get moisture out of the coach. You lose some heat, but you gain dry air with the circulation.
@toyman That's a great idea. Not quite as good of an idea as heading south but if you must be north the mass provided by the fresh water tank would go a long way towards keeping the water bay ice free.
@David aka (J.D.) is right a fan goes a long way towards keeping condensation under control. I don't even open a window. With my single pane windows there are plenty of air leaks to provide air flow. It also helps to be in a dry climate. If I was in an area where the windows were dewing up and the fan couldn't control it I'd buy a dehumidifier in a minute!
A cold front and clear skies can cause temperatures to plummet to -20º or -30º over night pretty easily. In those conditions have several electric heaters and a hair dryer handy to thaw pipes. The problem is it's hard to sleep when you know evil things are happening below! >:D
Be careful out there!
see ya
ken
We just returned from Illinois where I lost another ice maker valve. I had put a barrier between it and the vent cover but clearly that wasn't enough. Fortunately I caught it before any water came into the coach this time. It wasn't even all that cold where we were.
I will wrap the new one with heat tape or something.
Rick: In my 02 I cut the water off to the ice maker in the fridge and pulled the wire up to cut it off. Purchased a tabletop ice maker from Compact Appliance (now Sams has some) Makes more ice than needed. DAN
The hard to sleep thing is why I've just sucked it up and started installing heat trace, no more worries about it anymore.
I went and bought 40 lb. propane tanks so that I wouldn't have to drive the FT to the gas station 10 miles away to refill. It was -20F this morning and the propane hose froze up. Woke up to a chillier than normal bed. Well, at least its December now and we only have 3 weeks until winter starts. :))
Edit: I'm also planning to install a few extra circuits fed off of the shore power panel, as JD mentioned, to keep my inverter from powering all of these space heaters. Its getting fairly annoying having to shut down the heaters when I want to use the microwave or plug in the vacuum cleaner.
Also, my refrigerator stopped working this morning. :)) Time to go figure out why that is.
I might be confused, but on my 98, the inverter is only ON, when I turn it on, and that is only when I do not have shore power. The inverter feeds just a few circuits thru a ATS. But all the outlets that I use for anything work fine, without the inverter needing to be on. So far, I have always powered everything, from shore power, never ever turning on the inverter, when on either park power or generator.
Dave: With the inverter off does that turn off the battery chargers?? ::) DAN
No, I can select, charger, inverter, and maybe both by switching it on at the control center. I have never thought to run the inverter when plugged in, not sure why anyone would need to.
I always just thought the inverter was a very handy thing to have then the coach is unplugged, or the generator is not running.
Everything in your inverter panel still feeds through the inverter. Nearly all of the receptacle in my RV are fed off one 20 amp circuit breaker in the inverter panel, except for the 3 bedroom receptacles.
You are correct that the inverter function is not used when plugged into shore power since there is already 120V electricity present and nothing needs to be done with it. I can leave the inverter function on with the control panel and it only takes over when there is no shore or generator power. My Xantrex System Control Panel shows the wattage passing through it, don't know if you still have the older Heart model? Mine only switches over to invert mode when power has been removed.
You had said you were powering the space heaters off the inverter. That got me thinking, as I can get power at any outlet in my coach for a space heater, and don't have to turn on the inverter to do so.
It must depend on the coach and its wiring. Ours does not appear to be wired that way (excuse the highlight of the secondary transfer switch in the jpeg).
We just don't use enough ice to make the ice maker a practical appliance. I disconnected the water line from the ice maker and from under the sink. I removed the ice cube tray and the water solenoid. It is just a freezer now and we can make ice cubes in trays if we want to. It was always difficult to get that line blown down and winterized. Have a great day ---- Fritz
We use the ice maker a lot. The countertop version takes up too much space for us. I have a 5 gal drinking water jug in the bay where the water pump is with a separate pump just for the ice maker and the drinking water spigot at the sink. We carry a couple of extra 5 gal jugs in the bay to switch out.
We drink a lot of water, coffee and tea. Our local water requires a reverse osmosis system to be drinkable so we don't drink what's in the tank.
The other benefit is a nice clear ice cube to drop in a little Johnny Walker Black on occasion.
For drinking water, and things that use good water, we use the water purifier faucet in the sink. We change out the purifier element yearly and it works well for us. We also keep a lot of bottled drinking water on hand. Have a great day ---- Fritz
I can't speak for yours, but every inverter I ever say has that switching relay inside the inverter. So, it's very likely that that box you show is actually inside the inverter.
Nope. It's a separate box mounted beneath the bed next to the 2 breaker panels. One input is from the main breaker panel that receives shore power, the other input is the inverter. The output of the highlighted secondary transfer switch goes to the 40 amp "main" breaker in the auxiliary (inverted circuits) breaker panel. One of the 20 amp breakers from the main panel feeds the converter side of the Xantrex.
Our inverter is like Michelle's. All circuits are connected to the shore power side and only certain circuits are connected to the inverter side so that the inverter cannot be overloaded. If shore power is connected, the relay box has everything powered from shore power. When shore power is lost or disconnected, then the relay box switches every thing to the inverter which picks up those certain loads if it is turned on. We normally leave the switch on the inverter in the ON position and keep the inverter button on the remote panel in the OFF position so that we can easily turn it on if desired. I'm not sure where you can find out exactly which receptacles are connected to the inverter. I just did the O'l check them and see trick. Have a great day ---- Fritz
We had to live in our 1982 BB Wanderlodge for a couple of months while house was in renovation. Lowest temp was -12F. We didn't do anything except turn on the heaters. I had one water line freeze to the kitchen. Line was on outside wall and factory heat tape failed. Ice maker water valve on refrigerator froze too. Everything else worked fine.
Gotta' love the old coaches!
TOM
rihnsold, Your refer may have gotten to cold and froze up, should start to work when it gets warmer. On some of the dometics there is a switch that you turn on for low ambient temperature which keeps the interior light turned on which will let the unit work in the much colder temps.
Thanks for that info. I don't have the buttons or the cold kit but that did lead me to doing some searching on the web and it is mentioned that it may be beneficial to run on propane when it gets this cold. I'm trying it out now.
Running on propane did not get the refer working.
However, simply blocking off the side mount grill/access door has resulted in the unit running again. Looks like it was too cold and frozen up, never had that happen before.
Hopefully anyone camping in very cold weather will see this and realize that it is beneficial to your refrigerator working.
When we had our residential fridge installed at FOT, Larry (remodel shop crew) built a trick sliding door inside the side vent opening. It is made of plywood, lined on the inside with the blue foam insulation sheet. Locks in up or down position - very snug fit when closed. This is a worthwhile mod if you ever have your fridge out for repair or replacement.. ^.^d
Chuck, when I changed fridge to residential I also put in a "cover" behind the vent you show but I used 1" styrofoam that also slides up out of way in marm climes etc or drops down if not using coach. It definitly makes sure there is no draft coming into coach thru vent. I also have sealed around the joint between front of fridge and cabinet framing on inside with black silicone(matches colour of fidge). This also helps stabilize unit while travelling.
JohnH
Chuck or John
That looks nice.
What keeps the sliding door against the inside of the outer wall. I need to build one of those for my residential fridge
Sorry I didn't get more photos of the door assembly from the inside, but Larry was working too fast for me to keep up! He built a simple 3-sided frame out of wood. It looked like probably 1" x 1" (or perhaps 1" x 1.5") for the bottom piece and the latch support at the top. The sides are made up of 3 pieces, with a gap between them to hold the sliding door. The door is probably 1/4" exterior grade plywood, with the foam insulation glued to the back side. A magnetic latch on the top support piece holds the door in the "open" position. A spring latch (not installed yet in photo) holds it in the "closed" position. The plywood door just slides in the wood slots on the sides. It moves easily, but is still a very snug fit - no rattles or gaps to let cold air in.
Photo was taken while still under construction - insulation had not been added yet. Hope this helps!
Thanks Chuck for the description and photo.
Because my refrigerator is already installed I will have to come with a door that can be installed from the outside. Sure wish I would have thought of your system while the install was in progress
Thanks again.
Don, i put my refrig in thinking an plug for the vent hole from the outside might be OK. It was very hard to getbin and very hard to seal. So I pulled the refrigerator out and did it the right way. Very similar to Chuck's. I removed the fiberglass sheet and insulation that was above the vent opening on the outside wall to leave more room for the new refrig and it's venting. I used a 1 1/2" foam with (the removed) fiberglass sheet on both sides. Nice clean look, snug fit, no rattles that we hear and easy to slide up if we need to access that section.
I also fitted 1 1/2" foam sheet into the ceiling vent to close 2/3 to 3/4 of the original opening. Lets heat out in the summer. Nwe haven't noticed a big ruch of incoming cold air when it is colder outside.
Looking at the exterior photos (earlier post above) of my fridge access hatch, you can see there is a nice 1/4" lip all the way around the opening. Looks to me like you could make up a "plug" for the opening that could be installed from the outside. Cut a piece of plywood - trim to a shape that exactly fits into the opening so it would rest on the inside lip. This would fit
between the inside lip and the existing aluminum supports for the louvered door - cut out notches to clear the door supports. Then cut a sheet of insulating material (thickness to be determined by available space between inside wall and fridge) so it fits
through the opening. Glue insulation to "inside" face of plywood. The plywood would rest on the lip, and the insulation would project inside through the opening. Whole thing would be held in place by the outside louvered cover when it is lowered into locked position. Might need some foam rubber weatherstrip spacers between the plywood and louvered cover to make it all fit tight.
Just brainstorming, but seems like it would work to me. I'm surprised Camping World doesn't already sell a molded plastic/foam plug that would work like this...
Thanks Roger and Chuck
I am going to explore both of your suggestions. I haven't had any problem with out a cover for about a year yet but seems like you would need one.
I installed my foam cover from the outside after fridge was installed. I cut 2 pieces of it so I could get them in thru hole then taped them together once inside. I did some measuring before cutting and fitting and although it is not as slick as Chucks it does stop the draft. I have 2 clips that fit in top that hold foam in place.
Roger, I also closed off the top vent using a piece of sheet aluminum on roof -screwed down- then cut a hole in it to fit one of the whirlbird vents in it to allow warm air out. I also put a couple of inches of styrofoam under metal cover for insulation.
JohnH