Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: wa_desert_rat on December 24, 2013, 04:04:18 pm
Title: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 24, 2013, 04:04:18 pm
Pulled the coach around to our house this morning with no issues. Good battery voltage and oil pressure. Parked and shut down, loaded up the coach. Hit the start switch and nothing. No sound... no click... but the voltage on the start battery goes down.
CHecked the neutral detent (our manual lever has a lockout that keeps from starting the engine in any gear other than neutral). Battery voltage goes down when I hit the switch in neutral but not if I hit the switch in any other gear lever position. This tells me that the neutral lockout is working.
Back at the engine, there is zero noise from the solenoid (which I presume is located on the top of the starter). This is clearly visible from the bedroom with the bed raised. Wife hits starter switch, battery voltage goes down, nothing from the starter and no "click".
Took a hammer and whacked the solenoid a few times, tried start and nothing. Hit the solenoid while the start switch is activated and nothing.
Other than a completely dead solenoid or a frozen starter I am stumped.
Any ideas?
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 24, 2013, 04:12:10 pm
The dash solenoid is making a loud clicking noise and sometimes the instrumentation on the dash is not coming on. I suspect this solenoid and I'm going to head to a auto parts store to pick up a new one. However it IS clicking which makes me wonder if I'm right. Easy replacement though.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Chuck Pearson on December 24, 2013, 04:37:59 pm
As a quick fix the under dash selonoid can be easily disassembled, the heavy copper contacts cleaned. Seems like I had to drill out a couple alum pop rivets to get it apart. That fixed mine 20K miles ago. This assumes the coil inside is good, if it's clicking it probably is.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 24, 2013, 04:58:38 pm
I have jumped many solenoids to check them with and old pair of pliers.
Pierce
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on December 24, 2013, 05:21:46 pm
The safe way to jump a solenoid is to mark all the wires on one large lug. Then remove them and ADD them to the wires on the other large lug. You have now safely bypassed the solenoid. All electrical circuits will act as if the solenoid is transferring power.
Jumping is OK for checking, but you are dealing with large-gauge cable and touching any piece of metal on the coach is a dead short and can cause a fire. I would never drive with a solenoid jumped except as outlined above.
Brett
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 24, 2013, 05:56:24 pm
We have a new solenoid. Of course the studs are smaller than the original so getting all those wires onto the hot side is not easy. Working on that now.
Crqaig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 24, 2013, 06:08:26 pm
No voltage on the dash solenoid. Is there a fuse somewhere. Looking at the wiring diagram but it is hard to trace.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: erniee on December 24, 2013, 06:16:22 pm
check your battery cables
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 24, 2013, 07:12:20 pm
As simple as that sounds, more than once I have had that turn out to be the solution on various cars. Seems it takes just a little corrosion...and sometimes the terminals even appear tight...but a loosening, then a wiggling around and a re-tightening has solved the problem. Sure worth a shot.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 24, 2013, 07:21:51 pm
Not the cables... and we think the replacement (new) solenoid is bad. Put the old one back and same symptoms: Solenoid clicks, dash tach/fuel/battery comes when key turned to "on" but nothing when key turned to start.
Everyone went off to a late dinner. I managed to get out of it. So at least something good came of it. :P
I'll start working on it again tomorrow.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on December 24, 2013, 07:37:38 pm
Clicking solenoid sure sounds like a very weak battery
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on December 24, 2013, 07:55:37 pm
Put a voltmeter on the battery side of the solenoid. Turn the key. What does it read.
If a second person is available, go back to the chassis battery and see what voltage is when someone turns the key.
That will tell you if it is a wiring or battery issue.
Brett
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: sgwynn on December 24, 2013, 08:03:36 pm
The fact that the voltage drops and the front solenoid clicks points to the starter solenoid being stuck 'on' and probably the starter motor is jambed, or bad. Remove the starter & solenoid from engine and test at the parts store.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 24, 2013, 08:17:29 pm
The fact that the voltage drops and the front solenoid clicks points to the starter solenoid being stuck 'on' and probably the starter motor is jambed, or bad. Remove the starter & solenoid from engine and test at the parts store.
Yes... or that the dash solenoid is not passing enough current to hold the starter solenoid in. But the replacement solenoid doesn't do anything at all. Won't even click.
Not batteries (generator was running and charger/converter was charging both house and start batts); not battery cables (checked).
Either dash solenoid, starter solenoid, starter, or isolator diode.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Chuck Pearson on December 24, 2013, 09:07:16 pm
Wondering why you don't energize starter solenoid to test?
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on December 24, 2013, 10:13:58 pm
Would still like voltage readings at the ignition solenoid. Very strange things happen when voltage drops off.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 25, 2013, 12:07:06 am
Have you tried to run the starter with a jumper cable directly from the battery to the starter?
Have not tried this yet.
I knew that the ignition switch has to be ON in order to activate the remote start. I did turn it on and the symptoms were the same.
Can't check voltages because I can't find my standby el-cheapo DVM and Walmart is closed all day today.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 25, 2013, 07:56:37 pm
Sure sounds a lot like my experiences with a motorcycle battery with an internal short. Same kinds of behaviors... Voltage read ok when sitting there with no load, but the moment there was a load, huge voltage drop.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on December 25, 2013, 09:24:25 pm
We are back to my suggestion of checking voltage at the ignition solenoid before and when key turned on.
Brett
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 25, 2013, 09:54:12 pm
Brett: yes... a decent DVM will tell me a lot. I still think it's the dash solenoid.
Brad: It's common to see a voltage drop of 2 or 3 volts on the dash voltmeter when you hit the starter. Even on a small engine. It is possible that there is a battery problem but I had the generator on and the boost switch on. Not even a click from the starter solenoid (at the engine).
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: red tractor on December 25, 2013, 10:09:01 pm
If you have a 12 volt test light you can check if it lights up on the positive terminal on the starter and when someone turns the key to start see if the wire that activates the starter lights up. You can also take a jumper wire from the positive terminal on the starter to the small terminal that activates the starter and see if the starter turns over. there is also a solenoid mounted to the frame somewhere near the starter that is like the ignition solenoid under the dash and it takes the signal from the dash and sens a stronger signal to the starter good luck.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 25, 2013, 11:26:12 pm
If you have a 12 volt test light you can check if it lights up on the positive terminal on the starter and when someone turns the key to start see if the wire that activates the starter lights up. You can also take a jumper wire from the positive terminal on the starter to the small terminal that activates the starter and see if the starter turns over. there is also a solenoid mounted to the frame somewhere near the starter that is like the ignition solenoid under the dash and it takes the signal from the dash and sens a stronger signal to the starter good luck.
The engine starter has a solenoid on top of it. It is, however, not easy to access. And it's not making any noise at all!
I know there is 12vdc on the positive side of the dash solenoid... but the DVM quit working before I could get a good comparison between the two sides. We put in a new dash solenoid and it would not even engage (no "click" when the key was turned on). Put the old one back and it, at least, clicked when the key was turned to "on".
A new DVM will tell the tale, I think.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on December 26, 2013, 08:44:29 am
Craig,
When you get the voltmeter up and running, check what is happening at the ignition solenoid before concluding the new one is bad:
One large lug should read chassis battery voltage all the time-- 12.5 VDC+ if your chassis battery is charged.
The other large lug should read the same with the ignition (key) turned on.
If not:
Check for 12+ VDC to the small lug when key on. If two small lugs, one will be ground, the other the one from the ignition. If no reading, the ignition switch or wiring from it is bad. Take a small jumper wire from the battery side lug to the positive small lug. You should hear the solenoid click in and will have chassis battery voltage at the other large lug.
If there is voltage at the small lug, but not at the other large lug, then, yes the solenoid is bad.
Even a test light or 12 VDC bulb and some wire can be used to test if your voltmeter is not working.
Brett
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 26, 2013, 02:15:04 pm
Even a test light or 12 VDC bulb and some wire can be used to test if your voltmeter is not working.
I know the ignition works because it can energize the old solenoid... but doesn't energize the new one. And the dash meters (voltmeter, fuel level, etc.) come on with the old solenoid most of the time (but occasionally do not). This makes me suspect that the contacts on the old solenoid are going bad. I want to measure the voltage differential between the DC from the batteries and the output of the solenoid.
About to head into town to get the DVM. Wish I knew where my Fluke went. Was in my pickup and now has disappeared.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 26, 2013, 02:29:22 pm
If the new solenoid does not energize, try bringing voltage from the big hot lead side to the small terminal instead of from the ignition switch. Could be your ignition switch if that works. The new solenoids have two small terminals (and two big ones). Connect either one of the small ones to ground and the other to the ign. switch wire. The new solenoids won't work without a ground to one of the small terminals unlike the older models.
Major ground point is only a few inches away on the steering column mount.
Pierce
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Peter & Beth on December 26, 2013, 06:00:39 pm
I know I am sounding ridiculous but...is the replacement solenoid a continuous duty design as is the OEM solenoid?
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 26, 2013, 07:06:51 pm
The original solenoid is back in place. There is no voltage drop across the terminals with the key ON; not even a tenth of a volt. So that should eliminate that from contention. Unfortunately I'm coming down with a cold or flu and will have to wait til tomorrow when my son can come back over here and help.
Next step is the engine room.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Kent Speers on December 26, 2013, 07:24:39 pm
I had a very similar experience this past summer. It caused me to replace my three red top starting batteries. With that done, replacement of the isolater and the ignition relay and checking what I thought was everything else, still no start. I then took off the battery cables off one at a time and cleaned them then the terminals. Wow, everything worked. Although I had just cleaned them two years ago, there was just enough corrosion on the ground that the coach starter would not engage.
I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on December 26, 2013, 07:48:44 pm
Everything that is electrical I take apart and coat with Copper paste. never any more corrosion and better contact. John H
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Kent Speers on December 26, 2013, 07:50:58 pm
Everything that is electrical I take apart and coat with Copper paste. never any more corrosion and better contact. John H
Alright John, what is copper paste? Is that what we southerners call never-seize we use on manifold bolts?
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: fkjohns6083 on December 26, 2013, 08:24:26 pm
Craig ---- When I went thru the starting solenoid hunt/chase situation, I learned from the parts person at FT that you need to replace the original solenoid with a similar heavy duty solenoid that will handle the load that this one does. They informed me that a solenoid from the auto parts store will not handle it and will fail again. I installed the temporary solenoid (from an auto parts store) and ordered one from FT which I installed as soon as I received it. I havn't had another problem since then (about 3 yrs). There may be other options, but ordering a replacement from FT is surely a good solution. There may be another problem, but all of the symptoms of a bad solenoid seem to be there. I don't understand the new solenoid not operating, did you screw it down before checking it? I believe that the can side is ground for that solenoid. These kind of problems can be frustrating and it takes patience to eliminate the variables one at a time. Have great day ---- Fritz
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 26, 2013, 08:50:31 pm
Tomorrow will be battery terminal cleaning and tightening (even though they were pretty tight). I had re-installed the cables last spring after the fire-repair was done but it's an easy fix.
After that I'll check connections at the isolator and the starter/starter-solenoid.
I'll have a bit of help tomorrow I hope. :D
Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on December 26, 2013, 09:59:22 pm
Kent, the container is in my pit and the 240 is over top of it so cannot get to it right now, but, it is Copper oxide in a paste form. Git it 20 yrs ago from a Hydro worker friend that they use for mega killowatt contacts and were moisture is abundant. I think it is called 'Copper Shield" JohnH
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Barry & Cindy on December 26, 2013, 11:36:29 pm
Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant is a premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and corrosion inhibitors. With a temperature range of -30 degrees Fahrenheit to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit, this lubricant is ideal for spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, fuel filter fittings, and battery cable connections. From special-mission, job-specific lubricants, protectants and dressings, to the rigors of heavy-duty needs, count on Permatex to bring you reliability and problem-solving solutions that extend the life of your equipment.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Kent Speers on December 27, 2013, 11:14:43 am
Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant is a premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and corrosion inhibitors. With a temperature range of -30 degrees Fahrenheit to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit, this lubricant is ideal for spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, fuel filter fittings, and battery cable connections. From special-mission, job-specific lubricants, protectants and dressings, to the rigors of heavy-duty needs, count on Permatex to bring you reliability and problem-solving solutions that extend the life of your equipment.
That's the stuff I was thinking of but will it conduct electricity. My guess is yes because of the copper particles but it's level of conductivity is dependent upon the loading of the copper particles. If it is really good for preventing corrosion on batteries and cables I would think Permatex would advertise it's suitability. They seldom miss a marketing trick.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on December 27, 2013, 12:12:42 pm
In our business, we use both the copper grease and in addition we also use ground silver as a grease on high current moveable contacts. The price of this silver product is a bit costly at $385.00 for a very small vile of approx. 1 level teaspoon. Use it spareling :o Yes it works very good, we use about 6-8 a year, customers never yell. Dave M
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 27, 2013, 02:40:14 pm
I like Kent's post above about double checking the battery terminal posts/connections. Winter starting can really draw the amperage for a longer period if the big engine cranks for a while. It can even melt one of the lead connectors if it has high resistance. While you are cleaning/checking, why not run a short welding cable sized ground a very short distance to the chassis?
Also, while Foretravel may be able to supply a solenoid, it is the same brand (Cole-Hersee) as your local parts store or internet supplier has. Going to the Cole-Hersee site, you can make sure the one you get is the latest model as they upgrade every several years and it's easy to get an older model if you don't have the latest part number. Right now, the ignition, boost, etc. solenoid has a 24213 part number. Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee - (http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/168/24213/)
If the budget allows, a solid state solenoid is even better but costs more.
I changed our boost solenoid but the ignition solenoid under the dash top is original.
Pierce
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 27, 2013, 02:44:38 pm
That's the stuff I was thinking of but will it conduct electricity. My guess is yes because of the copper particles but it's level of conductivity is dependent upon the loading of the copper particles. If it is really good for preventing corrosion on batteries and cables I would think Permatex would advertise it's suitability. They seldom miss a marketing trick.
They do mention "battery terminals" in their blurb about useability so the implication is that it conducts electricity well enough. Although maybe they mean on the outside of the battery terminals. :P
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 27, 2013, 06:09:28 pm
Ok... it is not:
Dash solenoid: Not only can I measure no voltage drop across the solenoid when it's activated, but I also jumpered it and no start...
Starting batteries: Holding nicely at 12.7vdc. The starting bank consists of two red-top Optima 12vdc batteries in parallel. Each battery measures 12.7vdc.
Battery terminals and cables: Took start batteries out, disassembled the cables, cleaned the contacts. Reassembled and tested 12.7vdc. No start.
I am beginning to suspect starter and/or starter solenoid. I will test these as soon as I can find someone stupi.... er, young enough to lay under the motor home while I activate the starter to see if there is 12vdc at the starter.
Is the starter/solenoid assembly a standard one for 1992 Cummins 5.9B engines? Can I just go to a junkyard and buy one out of a Dodge pickup for that year?
Temperature is 27 outside but with wind chill it "feels like" 23(F). I believe it. Drove to 5 local auto parts and farm parts stores this morning and not one of them has the Permatex high copper compound. They all said that they can order it. I told each of them that *I* could order it and get it cheaper than buying it from them. Watch me with my smart phone make you irrelevant. I try to buy local... but they do not make it easy. I foresee a drastic change in the way business is done; especialy in relatively small towns.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on December 27, 2013, 07:25:12 pm
If you don't want to be down there at the starter for long (Brrrr), you could make LONG test leads out of extra wire. Connect the DVM to a wire that you run to the positive at the starter and up thru the bed, and then use any ground from the comfort of inside the motorhome to see if 12V appears when you or someone else hits the starter.
One last stab and then my brain is empty on the subject. I had a Ford Van that had the battery cable connection ON the starter collect enough corrosion to not allow it to work.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Chuck Pearson on December 28, 2013, 08:25:30 am
The solenoid on this starter has replaceable contacts, easily done without removing starter. Here's what I'd recommend you try before replacing anything, though....
Check to see if you are getting a 12 volt signal to small terminal on solenoid when key is turned to start position.
If yes, is solenoid making a loud click when signal is applied but starter doesn't turn? If so, the points in the solenoid are probably shot and need to be replaced. This normally is a slowly developing problem, though. It could be the starter motor, if it groans, smokes, slowly tuirns, or has done this on a prior start attempt.
If no click when 12 volts applied to solenoid term, then coil in solenoid is bad. Replace.
In addition to needing 12 volts to energize solenoid on starter, it needs to have enough ampacity to pull solenoid coil in. Suggest trying a separate 12 ga or so wire from positive battery post to solenoid term to make sure the problem isn't a bad splice or wire problem upstream.
These are very durable starters, the only problem I've seen with several of them has been solenoid points. They wear out. I bet you've got a wire problem.....
Chuck
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 28, 2013, 12:56:01 pm
The solenoid on this starter has replaceable contacts, easily done without removing starter. Here's what I'd recommend you try before replacing anything, though....
Check to see if you are getting a 12 volt signal to small terminal on solenoid when key is turned to start position.
Chuck, thanks for the ideas.
Yes... this is my (cunning) plan. I have to wait 'til our son (30 and still agile) can get over here this afternoon (when it warms all the way up to 35F) and help.
However, since the battery voltage (as indicated on the dash voltmeter) dips 3 or 4 volts when I turn the key to start, I am pretty sure we're getting voltage to the starter solenoid. But there is no click! Not a sound. Either not enough current to move the solenoid or something is up with the solenoid.
My suspicions now revolve either a bad connection at the isolator panel or the solenoid, or a frozen solenoid. I suppose it's possible that the starter pinion itself has jammed. There had never been any indication of grinding from the starter, however.
I would think that these should be pretty common in junkyards. I may have to take this one in and see if we can match it, however.
Glad I'm not in a Walmart parking lot. :P
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on December 28, 2013, 03:46:48 pm
That kind of voltage drop indicates one of several things:
Low battery, bad starter or engine that is seized up.
With the small B engine, you can rule out the "expensive one" by merely raising the bed and using a wrench to turn over the engine. No, unless you have a pet gorilla, you couldn't do that with the M, but a B should not be an issue.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!! - Solved
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 28, 2013, 07:32:03 pm
Not exactly sure if I solved it... but I sent the DW back to put her hand on the starter solenoid to see if she could feel it engaging... went up to the front, pushed the BOOST switch, hit the starter and off she went. All normal just like nothing had happened. Took the rig out for a 50 mile warm-me-up, brought it back to the shop, shut it down and restarted just fine.
Batteries are the same as when I bought the RV so it's possible that they are not in the best condition.
Or maybe we weren't supposed to leave...
Or it likes it when my wife touches it. :P
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 28, 2013, 08:53:18 pm
With all the testing, was that the first time you engauged the BOOST ?
No... the first thing I did was engage the boost. Then I started the generator, and let it charge for a few hours, then tried it again. Nada 'til this afternoon.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Michael j on December 28, 2013, 09:03:31 pm
Quote
Or it likes it when my wife touches it.
That's it Craig.
We'll remind you the next time you have a problem. ;)
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: red tractor on December 28, 2013, 10:00:27 pm
On my 84 ored the start system solenoid that is mounted to the frame would sometimes do what you described. I replaced it and no more problems. When I was in a parking lot and would not start and was 1500 miles from home I crawled under the coach and jumped the solenoid on the starter.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: coastprt on December 29, 2013, 12:45:49 am
Craig,
Ironically, the same thing happened to me yesterday. We drove up to the factory in Nacogdoches from Lake Charles stopping in Jasper, Tx for fuel with no problem. Stopped in front and went in the service dept and talked to Josh about service for Monday. When I tried to start up to move to the to the campground.........nothing!
I went back in and told Josh. He found Alton the shop foreman and he asked me if I had tried starting with the boost switch on. We went back and I tried starting with the boost on and it fired right up. Alton was standing at the back of the coach and said he knew it would start because he could hear all of the relays. No problem since then as it started today but I will be replacing the dash solenoid as it has been acting up. The heat/AC blower has been going off and on at times when running and the remote start wouldn't work when the solenoid was acting up as Alton confirmed. I had tightened up the lugs and ground before leaving on this trip and everything was fine till I arrived here. Don't know why it worked, but having both battery banks tied together fixed the electrical gremlin.
The no start did happen once before while parked in my driveway but I think I had the boost on without realizing it.
Good luck with yours,
Jerry aka Murph
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: amos.harrison on December 29, 2013, 03:18:53 am
Larry B sells heavy duty starter solenoid contacts for the 5.9. If your engine has over 100K miles on it, I'd replace them. This is a known issue and behavior. If that's the problem, the no-starts will only become more frequent.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 29, 2013, 10:14:50 am
Larry B sells heavy duty starter solenoid contacts for the 5.9. If your engine has over 100K miles on it, I'd replace them. This is a known issue and behavior. If that's the problem, the no-starts will only become more frequent.
Yes... I am beginning to lean towards the starter solenoid as the culprit. Do you have a link to his heavy-duty contacts?
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 29, 2013, 10:55:48 am
Craig,
When a starter solenoid starts to go, I have often bridged the hot side to the small solenoid switch terminal to get it running. It gets full voltage that way but when the ignition switch start position is activated, the voltage is less and a failing solenoid will only click a lot of the time.
Piere
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Bill Willett on December 29, 2013, 02:52:59 pm
Larrybs.com (http://Larrybs.com)
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Donmystic1 on December 29, 2013, 04:18:55 pm
I think that your batteries at 12.7 volts are to low. They should be over 13 volts fully charged.
I know that on our work boats that have not been run in a week or so, will not start on anything less than 12.9 volts.
The batteries get run down by all the electronics that required a small draw to keep the computer memories alive.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 29, 2013, 04:57:33 pm
Now my question is: did Foretravel use the same starters as Dodge did on the 5.9 engine?
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Green99 on December 29, 2013, 08:04:08 pm
Craig, I am not sure if Dodge and FT used the same starter. I somewhat doubt it. One uses a torqueflite trans and the FT uses an Allison and while they could use the same flywheel I don't think they did. I would look for a local Generator shop and have the original rebuilt. This way you know what you got when you get it bolted back on.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: fkjohns6083 on December 29, 2013, 08:26:32 pm
Craig ---- Ghost of Christmas past???? ---- Have a great day ---- Fritz
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on December 29, 2013, 09:03:39 pm
.....................I think that your batteries at 12.7 volts are to low. They should be over 13 volts fully charged..................
Craig,
If your voltmeter is accurate and you are measuring an open circuit, your 12.7Vdc is good. Lead Acid design is Lead Acid design. State of Charge (SOC) relationship is as follows:
WET Cell State of Charge, as a measure of Specific Gravity and Open-Circuit Voltage
Percentage
Charge
Open Circuit Voltage
SOC
Specific Gravity
Cell
6 Volt
12 Volt
36 Volt
100
1.277
2.122
6.37
12.73
38.20
90
1.258
2.103
6.31
12.62
37.85
80
1.238
2.083
6.25
12.50
37.49
70
1.217
2.062
6.19
12.37
37.12
60
1.195
2.040
6.12
12.24
36.72
50
1.172
2.017
6.05
12.10
36.31
40
1.148
1.993
5.98
11.96
35.87
30
1.124
1.969
5.91
11.81
35.44
20
1.098
1.943
5.83
11.66
34.97
10
1.073
1.918
5.75
11.51
34.52
Best practice (even with deep discharge battery designs) dictates not discharging below 50% SOC and not leaving a battery discharged any longer than necessary. Shallow discharges and slow recharges to 100% SOC, with a multi-step, smart charger specifically designed for the particular Wet, Gel or AGM battery design, will greatly extend a battery's useful cycles and lifetime.
Much misinformation and many don't understand or practice this. Voltmeter inaccuracies and misinterpreting "surface" charges when batteries are read with high impedance instruments, also factor into the misunderstanding.
The format gets messed up, trying to copy into the post..............sorry. The attached MS Excel document should be good.
Hope this helps, Happy New Year,
Neal
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 29, 2013, 09:09:56 pm
Craig, I am not sure if Dodge and FT used the same starter. I somewhat doubt it. One uses a torqueflite trans and the FT uses an Allison and while they could use the same flywheel I don't think they did. I would look for a local Generator shop and have the original rebuilt. This way you know what you got when you get it bolted back on.
Yes... rebuilding it at a generator shop sounds like good advice. When I was trying to find a starter/solenoid pair and looking at the available units, practically everything was for the 5.9L engine and Dodge. The photos looked a little like the unit we have, but not exactly like it.
Thanks, Craig :)
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 29, 2013, 09:13:51 pm
If your voltmeter is accurate and you are measuring an open circuit, your 12.7Vdc is good. Lead Acid design is Lead Acid design. State of Charge (SOC) relationship is as follows:
WET Cell State of Charge, as a measure of Specific Gravity and Open-Circuit Voltage
Neal... actually it was good enough to understand but I saved the spreadsheet anyway. I was pretty sure that 12.7 was a good voltage.
I've let the start battery sit since yesterday... tomorrow morning I'll check it. Should be no surface charge and not much to drain it. I'll see what it says. But I still suspect the starter solenoig since it was so quick to start yesterday... and also quick to start when we moved it from the shop over to the SnB and shut it off. 45 minutes later it wouldn't do anything.
Also... interesting... Sue said she did not feel the solenoid activate when I started the engine. But she might have been a bit jumpy. :P
Craig
Percentage
Charge
Open Circuit Voltage
SOC
Specific Gravity
Cell
6 Volt
12 Volt
36 Volt
100
1.277
2.122
6.37
12.73
38.20
90
1.258
2.103
6.31
12.62
37.85
80
1.238
2.083
6.25
12.50
37.49
70
1.217
2.062
6.19
12.37
37.12
60
1.195
2.040
6.12
12.24
36.72
50
1.172
2.017
6.05
12.10
36.31
40
1.148
1.993
5.98
11.96
35.87
30
1.124
1.969
5.91
11.81
35.44
20
1.098
1.943
5.83
11.66
34.97
10
1.073
1.918
5.75
11.51
34.52
Best practice (even with deep discharge battery designs) dictates not discharging below 50% SOC and not leaving a battery discharged any longer than necessary. Shallow discharges and slow recharges to 100% SOC, with a multi-step, smart charger specifically designed for the particular Wet, Gel or AGM battery design, will greatly extend a battery's useful cycles and lifetime.
Much misinformation and many don't understand or practice this. Voltmeter inaccuracies and misinterpreting "surface" charges when batteries are read with high impedance instruments, also factor into the misunderstanding.
The format gets messed up, trying to copy into the post..............sorry. The attached MS Excel document should be good.
Hope this helps, Happy New Year,
Neal
[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on December 30, 2013, 12:12:00 am
Craig, Had a big John Deere diesel that occasionally didn't like to start. The starter mounted solenoid would sometimes hang up. Before we had the starter/solenoid rebuilt, the "secret" was to keep hitting the solenoid with inrush current (keep rapidly turning the ignition key on and off, 5 or six times or as necessary). That worked until the fall crops were in. Then someone discovered that "percussive persuasion" (hammer taps) worked just as well. A starter solenoid fires so fast and is so coincident with the starter turning, one normally can't feel the solenoid "click", so I'm not at all surprised that your wife didn't feel it "click". Sure sounds like a sticky solenoid or a solenoid that is only intermittently getting enough current flow through its coil to throw (engage) it. I had to have my coach starter/solenoid rebuilt by a reputable alternator/generator shop in NH after my Parliment service experience. The shop did all of the work right on their premises, professed that they did work far superior to a Remanufacturing facility and they gave a "lifetime" (of my ownership) warranty. It has worked fine ever since. Best wishes, Neal
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on December 30, 2013, 12:41:21 am
Percussive maintenance was the first trick out of my bag having been brought up on 1940s cars and pickup trucks. But either we did not "percuss" hard enough, or something else is going on.
Oddly enough, gentle stroking was more effective. :P
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: red tractor on December 30, 2013, 08:48:44 pm
I would still suspect the solenoid that applies the power to the starter solenoid. It is a lot cheaper than the starter rebuild which might not be the problem, although rebuilding the starter can not hurt anything. This small solenoid is activated by the ignition switch and has a larger wire to the starter solenoid to give it enough power to pull the coil in and engage the starter
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on December 31, 2013, 02:26:41 am
After 50 years of playing the rebuild starter shops, found buying a NEW starter is the economic and labor Saving cheerful end, too many shops only make it work, not actual rebuild, so in short time your back with an issue. We have found 1 shop that actually rebuild them, however they sometimes recommend a new replacement due to cost of correct rebuild. Being cheap can leave one in a jam ;D
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on January 08, 2014, 11:57:36 am
As the "Pigs In Space" intro went... the "continuing stoooory".... uh.... continues...
I went to the shop to turn the "boost" switch on. Noticed that the voltage on the start battery (measured by the TM-2025) was 12.5vdc and thought to myself that I should see if the engine will start at that indicated voltage.
It did. Right away.
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: red tractor on January 08, 2014, 07:37:29 pm
I still say replace the frame mounted starter relay to the starter. Just from my experience it will leave you sitting again, just a matter of time. I used to carry a jumper wire with me until I changed it on our coach the 84 ored. Just go from the positive post on the starter to the small wire on the starter solenoid and would crank right over and start if the ignition switch was turned on.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on January 08, 2014, 09:58:09 pm
I still say replace the frame mounted starter relay to the starter. Just from my experience it will leave you sitting again, just a matter of time. I used to carry a jumper wire with me until I changed it on our coach the 84 ored. Just go from the positive post on the starter to the small wire on the starter solenoid and would crank right over and start if the ignition switch was turned on.
There is yet-another solenoid? I know about the one in the dash and the one on the top of the starter motor. Where is the one you're talking about?
Craig
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on January 09, 2014, 02:01:45 am
Craig,
Some engines were fitted with a remote solenoid so the cable to the engine located solenoid was not hot all the time. The small engine starter solenoid terminal is jumped (usually with a fair sized shunt) to the larger supply terminal and when the remote solenoid is triggered, the engine would start normally. Remote solenoid remains cool all the time. See an example in the attachment below.
Pierce
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: red tractor on January 09, 2014, 03:27:56 am
It should be located fairly close to the starter I would say within 3-4 feet. Follow the small wire to the starter solenoid on top of the starter and you should find it mounted on the frame rail. On the 0red I could tell you where it was located, but do not remember where it is mounted on the u225. It looks like the one under the dash.
Title: Re: Engine Won't Start!!!
Post by: wa_desert_rat on January 09, 2014, 09:49:20 am
Okay... looks like I'll have to prowl around under the engine again. I might wait for warmer weather. LOL