My Hehr Powerline bit the dust after a little less than 2 years on a rebuild and decided I wanted to try something different/newer. Talked to Elliot at Ace Alternator in Yucca Valley, CA (recommended by forum member Jim Brown) and he was really big on the Delco Remys. Said he has built out tons of them and never had a problem. He recommended a 24si @ $355 after taxes. When he builds them he does some magic that bumps the amperage from 160 amps to 240 amps. I said go for it...
I picked up the 24si today. It's smaller than the Powerline and has a much more open case. Elliot said that's what he liked about the design. There are 2 fans pulling air in which keeps things nice and cool. He took me back to the test bench, put the 24si on it and showed me that at full load it was indeed putting out 240 amps. He had it set up for remote sense and an ignition terminal like I spec'd it but said that the ignition terminal was not needed since the alternator is self-excited. I've read elsewhere that that is the case.
So I get home and install the alternator. Uh oh the positive lug is on the other side of the case. My positive cable is about 4 inches too short. From under the bed I see the cable disappear down the passenger side of the engine (DD 6v92) towards the starter. It's too late in the day to air up and install the safety jacks so will have to check in the morning if I can easily (or not so easily) remove the cable and have a longer cable made. Thought I check with you guys to see if anyone knows if the cable indeed goes to the starter and how much trouble I'm in for. I gave a bit of thought about just having a short 4" jumper made up and just bolting it to the cable end to lengthen it but then realized that I'd have to insulate the bolt and cable ends since they would be hot. Decide maybe not such a good idea...
Any other advice appreciated.
I'll follow up on the alternator once I get it going since there have been lots of posts about replacement alternators and no real solid solution that I was able to find in the archives.
BTW: I love the test bench at Ace Alternators it looks like something out of Flash Gordon!
See ya
ken
Just love the "Magic" part, I would not be surprised if he also sold magic beans, like Jack used for his beanstalk.
That is a big increase Ken. I hope it doesn't let the smoke out!
Well if the magic smoke comes out the alternator will be going back! :)
Elliot convinced he knows what he is doing but I'm pretty gullible. :( If it doesn't work I'll try something else or just exercise the generator all the time. :)
I'm ok risking a few hundred dollars it's when we get to the few thousand dollars I start getting more conservative.
I'm still looking for advice it there's any out there to be found...
see ya
ken
Ken,
The main positive terminal from the alternator should be going to the battery isolator center terminal. My battery isolator is behind the drivers rear wheel. The cable travels from the alternator to the passenger's side of the engine (along with many other cables), drops down and then travels to the other side of the coach towards the isolator. If yours is like mine there should be some opportunity to shorten the path if not just outright pull up some extra slack towards the alternator.
@John Thanks I must have had a brain cramp or something. Of course the cable goes the isolator! Duh! ^.^d Seems strange they don't bring it down the drivers side. It's a shorter path.
Right now it's tie wrapped tightly in the wire bundle so some judicious tie wrap cutting I should be able to find some slack. At least I hope so.
see ya
ken
You used to be able to "re-clock" alternators on cars. Allowed you to rotate the back half of the case so the posts ended up in the right position for different applications. In the photo it looks like about 180 degrees to the right would do the trick. Don't know if this is possible on the one you have, or if it would help?
Am I missing something here, if you rotate the thing 180deg, won't the terminals line up a bit better? At least that is what it looks like to me when I look at the photo. Looks upside down.
Roland
Just my two cents worth, I would take it back to Elliot to work his magic in rotating it 180 degrees. Even if it cost a few bucks, it might save you a lot of time in the long run. What is your time worth? is what I have to ask myself all the time.
YMMV. The way my luck runs, if I pulled the cable, I would cause something else to shift and short out and would drive myself nuts (short drive) trying to figure out what happened :headwall:
Larry
Be sure the rest of your electrical system is capable of handling the increased amps. Both wire size and particularly the battery isolator.
I was going to increase my alternator but the isolator was the bottle neck so that has to be up sized first. I think. Mine is a 200 amp isolator.
Turns out I did have enough slack in my cable. Just had to cut 4 tie wraps to get it. I wired the alternator up, checked all the connections and fired it up. Yep after a couple of minutes I started to smell something and upon investigation found the magic smoke was leaking out. Had DW shut it down. The remote sense cable was melting it's insulation. Luckily we got it shut down before it did too much damage. :(
Elliot is coming out to the coach to troubleshoot tomorrow. I've disconnected the remote sense wire at the alternator & the isolator. That's all I'm doing until Elliot gets a chance to see it.
I'll post on what he finds tomorrow.
I know Dave you told me so... :)
Didn't think about needing to upgrade the isolator for the higher amps. Thanks for the heads up. I'll start researching that today. I can get by for now by just moving the alternator cable on the isolator to the start battery post? That would take the isolator out of the circuit. I would just need to use the boost switch to charge the start battery when needed. That's assuming Elliot can get the alternator working. If not I'll just have him rebuild the Hehr Powerline back to specs and give that another shot.
And for you kids out there don't try this at home.
see ya
ken
Ken:
Some 24si alternators did not have the Remote Sense feature. This feature became standard in the 28si. See attached copy of your photo. The Remote Sense stud is not there. If you look closely you can see the "S" in the plastic cover for "Sense".
You have attached to the "R" terminal for "Relay". This is not the Remote Sense and should not be connected directly to the battery. Hopefully no damage was done, you will definitely want to have the alternator tested.
Another word of advice is you should put an in-line fuse (5 amps) in the remote sense wire to protect against accidental high currents in the small gauge wire connected directly to the battery.
Peter
@Peter I think you nailed it. I specifically asked before I left the shop where to place the sense wire and they pointed to the R post. Looking at the Delco Remy docs it does show that to be the Relay post not the Remote Sense post. I've printed out the docs and will be pointing this out to Elliot tomorrow.
The in-line fuse is a great idea. One will go in tomorrow before anything else goes together.
Thanks for the input Peter. Hope we meet up down the road. I owe you a beer or 3...
see ya
ken
This illustrates, once again, that alternator shops do not seem to be able to understand how to set up an alternator in motor homes with isolators. They almost always think it's just a long semi-tractor. No matter how much they nod their heads and smile, you have to make sure that you understand it first before you can let them change it for you.
And if you see a jumper (often a small flat metal plate between two terminals, be especially cautious.
Craig
You are learning why I trust a very few magic electrical DC shops, most are truly clueless and or careless.
Enjoy
Dave M
Yep. I do my own. These alternators are really quite simple internally and easily repaired or rebuilt with readily available parts. The manufacturers also provide comprehensive manuals for hooking up in several different configurations, including vehicles with isolators. For whatever reason, most shops refuse to refer to these and hook em up the way they usually do, which usually works. Unless you've got a Foretravel.
I know it's not for everybody, doing this kind of work but sometimes it's easier to just do it yourself rather than trying to educate an expert on how to install it properly. Not to mention the pain of someone else learning on your dime.
No call from Elliot yesterday. It was a day off for him and he volunteered out of the blue to call and check on my progress and stop by if I needed help. I understand he got busy, it was his day off, etc but the no call was annoying.
Talked to Ace Alternators this morning. Elliot is out sick and won't be back till Monday. All is forgiven. :) Sick is an acceptable excuse. I will be on the phone with him first thing Monday morning.
Will update when I have more info. Thanks everyone for the help and advice.
see ya
ken
If it were me I would have Elliott magically turn that alternator back to 160A.
I think I would also make sure he understood what the "sense" connection is.
You wouldn't think this would be hard.
Apparently you would be wrong...
Craig
@Craig Why do you recommend turning the alternator back to 160A. I'm pretty sure the issue is wiring not over amperage.
Since I do FHU camping most of the time my batteries are almost alway close to full so the alternator won't have to utilize the full amperage most of the time. The times we do dry camp it won't have work as hard to bring the batteries back. That's my thinking anyway. Besides more is better! Omph, Omph, Omph...
see ya
ken
Quite likely the isolator is the limiter in terms of capacity. Either dial back to isolator capacity or change the isolator/ use manual switch/ use high amp constant duty solenoid.
Brett
I suspect that the regulator on that alternator (or, really, *any* alternator) is not going to actually back down below about 14.8vdc and 3 or four amps; at least my alternator is like that. And if you do a lot of driving - especially long days of driving - you might be damaging your batteries.
Lots of people like to boost their alternator output - sometimes with something as simple as a rheostat to make the alternator think the batteries are not completely full already. What is a lot harder is to turn *down* the output of an alternator so that it doesn't harm your batteries. We buy $200 charger/converters designed to pamper our battery banks with exactly the right voltage/current and $600 solar charger controllers - both of which "sample" voltages to make sure they get charged exactly right. Meanwhile, every time we start the engine we are pumping more voltage at the battery banks than anything other than old fashioned wet cells are designed to take; and often times more than they want, too.
I'm seriously looking for something as good as the Midnight Solar Classic to control the alternator's output.
Craig
@Brett I do plan to upgrade the isolator or manual switch or solenoid. I need to start researching and see which option fits my needs (or desire). Thanks for the mention of the manual switch I hadn't thought of that.
@Craig Thanks for clarifying. I do have one of the $200 charger/converters but no solar (yet). I rarely drive more than 5 and at the most 6 hours a day. I also like to drive with my lights on which does drop the voltage I see on my dash gauge which is why the extra amperage was appealing to me. I'm also running 3 wet cell 8Ds.
I do plan to quiz Elliot about exactly what magic he used to get to 240 amps and what sacrifices I'm making using the black mojo. I sure hope the black mojo doesn't get subtracted from my karma!
see ya
ken
Manual switch option: PERKO Inc. - Battery Switches - Medium Duty Battery Disconnect Switch (http://www.perko.com/catalog/category/battery_switches/product/150/)
Rated at 250 amps continuous and the rating ONLY applies to that portion of the current sent to the house battery bank.
Two large lugs on the back:
One lug= alternator B+ and chassis battery
Other lug= house battery
Switch off= alternator charges only chassis battery
Switch on= both battery banks charged.
No need to external sense wire-- B+ terminal can be used, since there is no voltage drop across a diode based isolator.
Useful if going from shore power to shore power CG's-- why burn diesel to OVERcharge the house battery all day.
Also makes an excellent battery combiner.
Brett
Do you think you will ever have a need for 200A output? Looks like the highest charge current I ever see is around 100A into the battery bank. I have always assumed this was the max the batteries could absorb (lead acid) but maybe it's the max output on charger. Kind of wonder if the belt drive setup for the alternator is capable of powering the alt at this high an output.
Called again this morning and Elliot is still out sick! There is a pretty nasty flu going around. I really don't what to talk to him until he's over it! Luckily we are here for another 8 days.
@Chuck My hope is that I never need to use the full capacity of the alternator. My thought is that since the alternator will be working most of the time at less than the old 160 Amp that it's not working near as hard, running cooler and able to handle any extra load that pops up without straining. My main concern is that I like to drive with my lights on all the time. The load of running the lights and charging the batteries can pull some amps. I'm planning to add a shunt between the alternator and the isolator/switch/solnoid (once I decide which way to go) so I can see if the extra amps ever come into play.
see ya
ken
Alternator run temperature, or more accurately said an alternator's internal temperatures can be kept in a range conducive to long life with larger frame alternators. The fact that a certain size alternator is turned up and then run at lower (closer to design spec) will not lower temperatures.
Also, we put additional heat load on alternators because the pusher orientation puts the alternator in dirty, warm air instead of up front and center. And the alternator's internal fan is working against the direction of air flow. These are just facts of life with any DP.
Don,t know about jacking up output adding switches and such. I pulled mine (oem) a couple of years ago had IT rebuilt. It worked good for 12 years, and continues to work like it should today. Life's to short to make more problems, but that's just me, every one gets to do what makes em feel good.
Elliot called this morning and said he was in the area delivering a starter motor and would stop by. He showed up and checked out the alternator and admitted that he was wrong about how he set up the alternator. He said he would rebuild it how ever I wanted. Including setting me up with a 28si.
I mentioned that I was thinking of pulling the isolator out and replacing with a switch. He wasn't so sure but after showing him the isolator and how I would wire the switch he really liked that idea. He had been pushing me to go with a solenoid but said the switch would be the way to go. He also gave me his cell number and said if I have any issues call him day or night.
So I've ordered a PERKO switch from Amazon and have moved the alternator cable from the center post on the isolator to the starter post. In effect cutting the isolator completely out of the circuit. Now the alternator only has 2 wires a positive and a negative. Don't get no simpler.
When the switch gets here I'll swap out the isolator for the switch and continue on with life. :)
see ya
ken
Ken it sounds like Elliot is a stand up guy. Good to know, seems to be a shortage sometimes.
Larry