I am not sure if this pertains to any other models but the 2002 Coaches that use the HWH Train system for the front slide.
I'm keeping the other thread updated as I resolve the slide-creep problem, but I just discovered a serious issue that may or may not have had some causal effect to my bad cylinder (this turns out to be the one that now has an internal leak-through). I suspect the extra stress may well have contributed to weaken the cylinder.
I have a Villa Dinette situated in the rear of the slideout, and I think that is a common configuration. The dinette seats bolt to the floor. There are three bolts holding the base of the rear seat in place, and the first one (closest to the center of the coach) is not only unnecessary, it has been damaging the slide mechanism as it moves!!! Whoever installed the bolts on the base, both on the front part of the rear seat and the back part of the rear seat, installed 1-1/2" bolts that are so long, they enter the shielded, channeled sections of the train mechanism AND CAUSE DAMAGE.
This problem cannot normally be seen, as even if you pull up the carpet, FT used spray adhesive to hold it down and you won't be able to see through the dried adhesive on the lexan. I am not sure if the forward bolt causes damage or if it was all caused by the rear bolt. I have had all of that up to do my cylinder testing. In any case, I have now removed both bolts and the other 4 bolts (2 at the rear of the rear base, and 2 at the front of the rear base) are plenty to hold the seat solidly in place.
Pictures of all of this are below. If you have a 2002 with the TRAIN system, I heartily suggest that you pull out the rear seat drawer and feel for the two bolts (1/2" heads) that would be about 3-4" in from the edge of the slide. If you find them, my advice is to remove them.
Brad,
Thanks for the tip and all the posting of your progress. I haven't had any of the problems you have been reporting; however, I' have had several other challenges with the slide though... bladder, locks, squeaks, oil leaks, water leaks and the computer. Other than that ( as Gen Norman Schwarzkopfwould say) it's a fine slide mechanism.
Jim
Brad I would hope you have been talking to FT about that bolt issue if the bolt has been the cause of problems.
John H
I possibly should discuss it with them, but I think there is more positive value in just sharing the issue here so that folks know there might be a problem and are able to fix the problem easily. I suspect the Villa furniture all has the same mounting tabs. The middle tab of the three seems to be different and possibly was added to avoid this very problem that occurs if the innermost one is used. Someone just made an error in the way they put it together.
FOT made me really fight them over getting my defective endcap attachment issues repaired in 2006, which was clearly a manufacturer defect, and that battle left a bad taste in my mouth. This issue is likely similar in nature, but I don't want to argue with them over it. The coach is now 11 years old. At this point, I am just happy to have finally found my slide problem and even if I have to buy a new cylinder, worst case will likely be $400 and I have learned a great deal about how the slide works in the process...and how to save myself a lot of $150/hour service time now and in the future. HWH (Joe Portelli) is still being absolutely wonderful with help and guidance. I have a FT friend in town that has a slide creep also, so I'll be putting Joe's expertise to good use and sharing what I learn. I'll be curious to know if he blames the bolt for the cylinder failure.
Brad: I immediately checked my seat attachments and found only two tabs on each side. I looked for a bolt-through problem but can't see any with the drawer out. Was the picture taken from the front side (center of coach) or the rear with slide out? Looking at the work orders on my unit, the dinette and seats were changed or replaced along with a rear hydraulic cylinder on 10/2012, but I can't tell what really was done. Norm H
Brad: P.S. My slide is making scraping sounds during retraction as someone else described as wood-on wood or a balloon being rubbed, all in the front area. I must make an apt in NAC. to have it looked at but not sure where I want to go to have it done. Norm
The picture of the rail is taken from the floor in the middle of the coach, looking towards the back of the rear seat. I have tried to show lines pointing to the three hold-down points. The ones on each side are welded tabs on the Villa furniture, including the BAD location. The middle one seems to have been added...and should have sufficed, eliminating the need for the one nearest the center of the coach (left line in the picture) which goes into the hydraulic area.
Gee. You had a lower rear cylinder that had to be replaced on your 2002? What a coincidence that would seem.
There was a lot of dirt and gunk on the slide that I could see with the header off, so I cleaned and waxed it, particularly in the area where the $$$ seal comes in contact with it. On the lower part, with the slide extended, I found a hard "trail" of glue that was rubbing against the bladder that I carefully chipped off.
I have heard similar noises, but usually only when the slide has gotten wonky and extended/retracted unevenly. Please share what you find!
Now I know why I do not need a slide in a coach. Lots of headaches for sure.
John H
I'm sure it is like the old adage about kids: "Never have them; never miss them." My ex was the person who *needed* a coach with a slide, ergo, a slide was in my future. After initially having issues, I left it in for several years, until I decided not to let it intimidate me. The extra room is nice to have, but I could certainly live without it. I believe this bolt and cylinder issue has been the root of my problems. While the aluminum links are scored on the upper corners from being pulled past the bolt, there is nothing structurally wrong with them. The hydraulic cylinder (once rebuilt/replaced) will have a much easier time now, not having to pull the linkage past the bolts.
Hi Brad - Sent you a PM - Please give me call when you can.
Thnax,
Scott
I have my drawer pulled out and only see two bolts. I do not see anything close to where your "left " line is.
As we talked about on the phone, apparently the third (middle) bolt that I have must have been something FT added AFTER Norm's build #5941 and your build #5954...but before my build #5981. I just wished they would have left the bad bolt out of mine!!!! So if others find the 1-1/2" bolt out at the edge (of both of the rear seat rails), if you replace them with bolts that are LESS than 7/8" of thread, you will avoid the interference. It you pull out a bolt and see the aluminum transfer, then you have been straining your lower rear cylinder. I talked with the tech at RnR and it was his opinion also that the added stress on that one cylinder would very likely lead to the internal seal failures.
Brad: I checked again and I do have a third bolt loop, at the extreme outer edge off the foot rest, which is unused. It is so close to the edge that a bolt would not have held there. My slide must be marginally narrower at that point than yours. That foot rest measures exactly 33" from the inner wall. Norm
Sounds like a good deal. No bolt there means nothing protruding where it doesn't belong. I will be just leaving those 2 outer bolts out as well, after I tear it all apart and put it back together again. I am, at this point, presuming I will have to take the dinette (both seats) out in order to get at the train mounting mechanism. I'm still waiting for that verification, but it seems the only way to get at it is to lift the carpet...which is under the seating. Ugh.
Brad - Nice chatting with you today. After our tel con I looked at my coach receipts and found some work orders that outlined some slide repair work dating back to 2011. I called the RV Service Center in Las Cruces that performed the work. They replaced some solenoids (they didn't note which ones), replaced lower locking pin mechanism, two hydraluic lines, nothing about the lower left cylinder. I mentioned that the OEM screws that hold the Villa bench had been replaced with wood lag bolts and that the clear plactic cover was not in place and there was no comment. That's all they know. The Tech that did the work no longer works there so there is no ones else to talk to. Just goes to show ya.......even with a work order you really do not know what happened. That is the main reason I haven't taken it some where for repair. Am awaiting your next step. :D ^.^d
Thanks again.....
Ugh. Not much info there from that repair center. My friend in town with the 2002 must be out and about. I left a message on his phone that I wanted to see his dinette to see what I find there. I am not sure what his build number is. We plan to try to get a handle on his slide creep issue once mine is resolved.
I put together all that I have learned and emailed it to Luke, the tech at RnR in Spokane that does all the FT work. I had called him up and told him what I had learned so far, and he said he would appreciate the emails and pictures. He immediately commented that the cylinder failure was likely the result of it having to do so much extra work, dragging the "chain" past the interfering bolts. Luke maintains a record of what he learns about Foretravel issues, so I am hoping it will turn out to be helpful to him and others that need help. He was really a nice guy.
^.^d
I got to look at my friend's 2002 U320 today. Very strange. His Villa dinette has the innermost mounting tab about 4" in, instead of like mine, which is about 1" in from the inside edge. I don't particularly understand the difference in the same year coaches. So this is *only* an issue when you have mounting tabs near the outside edge like mine.
My next step will be to remove the Villa seats to get at the hydraulic cylinder mounting. I am curious to see if the two seats are interchangeable, and thus maybe mine were mounted in backwards (front seat in rear position, etc). If the tabs are in different places, that might explain it.
My mounting tabs are also in about 4" from the edge of the edge.
Are you sure the dinette seats must be removed?
Been reading your post. My 02 295 has flexsteel seats not villa. (cheaper but Ok). I am going to go to the warehouse today and ck on my bolt locations. My build nr is 6054. MOT worked on my slide when I purchased the coach and it has worked great. DAN
Scott: There is only one other way that I can see to get at the bolts. That would be to slash the carpet in the 10 spots where the bolts must be (assuming they are like the top cylinders). And then I'm not sure if any of the bolt heads will be under the dinette mounting rails anyway. I am going to start another thread asking for dinette removal help.
Dan: The edge of the slide is the only problem area. My front dinette seat has its bolts substantially further in than does the rear. I do not know for sure, but it looks like these seats are the same and if Villa makes a front and a rear, maybe I got two front benches, with the rear turned 180 degrees, making the tabs too close. My friend in town has his tabs a long ways further in and his build is somewhere around the 5960 mark.
As long as your seat mounting bolts are further back in than 2-3 inches, you will be fine. The metal, welded tab on my rear seat actually sticks out FURTHER than the edge of the carpet covering the cylinder mounting...putting the bolt hole just inside the mounting. Both the back of the rear seat mounting frame AND the front of the rear seat mounting frame stick out that far.
Brad - I'm guessing, but there probably could be worse things than removing the dinette seats to access the cylinder. This problem is kinda like an onion - many layers to go through. On the one hand we are waivering between doing the repair ourselves or taking it up to FOT/MOT for cylinder replacement OR Driving to HWH. Doing it ourselves would be the least expensive but would the problem really be fixed? FOT from what I can gather has a mixed record for slide repair - Don't know about MOT. Probably going to Iowa would be the best but also probably the most expensive - fuel included. I would have the greatest level of confidence that the repair was completed properly with HWH. Guess I will continue to follow you and your experience for a while before I decide.
Thanks again for all of your effort
Well, here is my history.
1. Took coach to FOT for (among other things) slide examination/repair in January (2007?). They gave it a clean bill of health, despite two steel bolts that I just found inside the channel mechanism, causing interference since before that date.
2. Took coach to RnR to get slide repaired in June, 2013. Slide was found to be way "out of synch". Tech called FOT who told him I needed a new Synch cylinder ($1300+ labor). Luckily, the RnR tech didn't believe that and called FOT again the next morning after I told him I did not have an extra week to wait there for a new synch cylinder to be built. Then a different FOT tech said "No, you don't need a new synch cylinder, just re-synch the 4 room cylinders". Cylinders were re-synched and slide again worked smoothly...but still crept in. I now know that creeping will eventually result in an out of synch condition again. Tech replaced a solenoid valve (which is the usual culprit for creeping according to HWH), but again, that turned out to be just throwing parts at it. It did not solve the issue, but I was already down the road.
Now, with all that, I decided that while everyone was happy to throw my money at possible repairs, and if they fixed the problem, it was accidental. Only I really owned the problem. I also decided that it could not be rocket science, and I'm not stupid. HWH has guided me through the fairly easy testing process to find out what is wrong, and so now I know exactly what is wrong, and what part *really* needs to be replaced/rebuilt, without paying someone for what, so far, has amounted to little more than educated guesses.
Now that I know what needs replacement, I personally don't want to pay someone $150 an hour to unbolt the 4 hold-down bolts and move my dinette out of the way, unscrew a board, unscrew 10 bolts, release a snap-ring, send in a cylinder for a maximum $276 rebuild cost, then put it all back together. I was right, it isn't rocket science...it just takes spending a little while to find the problem and someone telling you what to look for. The hardest two issues are removing the header and removing the dinette (or couch, if your front lower cylinder goes wonky). If an upper cylinder goes wonky, they are much easier to remove. HWH is so great, they have TONS of literature and documentation, free for the downloading, on their website. If I lived near Iowa, I would have gone there, but I'm too far away.
So, hope that helps you in your decision. I'm going to post more pictures on the other thread. My bad cylinder is out of the coach!!!!
awesome Brad!
Brad, Before shipping that cylinder off the Iowa have you considered finding a local; hydraulic shop and seeing if they can rebuild it for you ? There is a shop in North GA, used to be in Conyers, that would tackle anything. He firmly believes that if a human put it together then another human should be able to fix it.
Gary B
Brad I like your thinking and diligence on this. A few years ago when we had a 93 225 with the 610 kick down jacks I was in touch with HWH trying to figure out why they would not work etc. They guided me thru this system and I fixed it, all with phone calls and some diagrams. The tech also sent a follow up letter and info a week later, this after EVERY call to them. Geoff's 240 and now this one we bought now both have the 610 system and Geoffs had problems when we got home, but turned out to be bad solenoid etc which was fairly easy to find problem. I would like one day to visit HWH ( have driven past it with Geoff on trip from NJ with his coach) and see inside. Great company I think.
Keep info and Piccys coming.
John H
Gary: You are likely right, that there is a local option. Not sure if they would know what tension should be present on the spring, etc., but they probably could handle it. My issue is likely just seals in the cylinder that blowby as they endeavored to push the assembly past those bolts that were in the way. Might not have even damaged anything else. But like I said elsewhere, HWH has earned my business with their helpful attitude and with a $276 max charge, I'll be happy at all the hours of labor costs they saved me.
John: Thanks. I'd really have rather just gotten someone else to do it, but finally decided that it would have to either be me doing it ...or me taking a trip to Iowa for this one. That slide roominess is just too nice to just forego. HWH is busy, but I always got a response to my dumb questions within 36 hours.
^.^d