I mentioned in another thread that we bought an AirForce One towed braking system at the "Q". The M & G system won't fit in our Honda Fit. This thing isn't cheap (none of them are of course, unless you luck out on eBay Craig's List for used one), at $1,600 installed. I mentioned in that previous post that I had to remount relay module and air tank for the AF1 and reroute the air lines away from moving and hot parts. Well, it turns out that I will have to do more than that to make this system useful, as opposed to a liability. They tested without the toad hooked up using a long air line and it did appear actuate the brake pedal and release it. Well, today when we hooked up the towed and tested the lights and such, it all looked good. As we started to pull out on the highway from the dirt shoulder, I felt like there was more resistance than there should be. I asked the copilot if she was sure the parking brake was off, and she said was. Well, I pushed down on the pedal on the right and started on the highway. The coach started to accelerate like we were going up a slight grade and we heard a distant high pitched squealing sound. I looked up at the towed cam and, to my horror, saw blue smoke belching out from the rear of the towed! ??? I had probably gone less than a 100ft on the highway and fortunately still had a wide unobstructed shoulder to get off on. We dashed back to the towed, and sure enough the parking brake was off, the shift selector was in neutral, and the brake pedal was not noticably depressed (can't say the same for myself at this stage of the game :( ), the key was in the appropriate position. I checked everything, got back in the coach while Tys stood beside the towed and started to move and got the frowny face, arms crossed, stop signal immediately. I disconnected the coach air system from the towed and we tried again. This time the wheels rolled freely.
We left it that way and proceeded to drive to Lake Havasu with no further issues (and no supplemental braking system). I am puzzled to say the least... the AF1 system works with an air cylinder actuator that looks like a miniature version of the original Unicoaches drop down step air cylinders. the evidence suggests that the control box must act on the power brake vacuum booster as well. How else could the brakes remain applied even though the pedal is released? I admit that the desire to get under way kept me from closely examining the installation on the car part of the system, but it now appears that I am going to have to educate myself on the proper function of this unit to figure out what is going on. When I reputed the air lines on the coach, I DIDN'T CHANGE THE CONNECTIONS! It was as the installers left it. I didn't really look too close at the car part of the install (after all they assured me that they had installed hundreds of these systems and more than one Honda Fit), but I could see some poor execution just glancing at it.
Not a happy camper at this point... but very reluctant to take it to a so called expert after what I saw done on the coach. I should have saved myself $400 and done the install myself when I get to a place where I can work on it. Now I will have to do that anyway. I will have to get with the SMI tech support people (AirForce One parent company) to figure out whether the control box is bad or it is improperly hooked up.
Don
Don,
We have the AF1 and have had no problems. We always do the hitch locked and wheels freely rolling test when we first pullout each morning.
Ours also came with a remote alarm that sounds if the toad brakes are on (with a few second delay). It's a little annoying when you are sitting at a light for awhile so I buried the beeper in the overhead cabinet above the driver (It cuts the volume down to a manageable level) and I also often use the parking brake at stop lights which does not engage the toad brakes.
My brother's came with an LED that mounts on the toad mirror that is visible in the RV TV camera that supplies the same warning function.
I think our install is completely independent of the toad except for the electrical signal for the remote indicator. Hope you get things worked out.
Rich
Don, I use the Brake Master system in my Honda CRV. It's also an air cylinder mechanism, and can't be all that different from yours. It is important to be sure that the brake boost vacuum canister has been drained before you begin towing. On my rig I just push the brake pedal a few times until it gets noticeably hard before I attach the air cylinder. Another important check is to be sure the air cylinder is adjusted so that it keeps the brake pedal fully retracted when at rest. Even just the weight of the cylinder can cause some depression of the brake pedal. The last thing I would check is the "break-away" switch. If that assembly is defective it will lock the Toad brakes. On my rig I put a switch on the dash of the Honda to divert the brake pedal stop light signal and I routed it to an LED installed in the coach driving area. That way I can see when the Toad brakes are being applied or not. (just be sure to put the switch back to it's "normal" position when you unhook the Toad. Don't ask how I know!) Glad you didn't do too much damage.
Dave VanAmburg
@Don I know your pain... Hopefully you get it resolved with only a little pain.
see ya
ken
If looking for a ray of sunshine, Honda fit is about 2600 lbs, so you are legal in most states (under 3000 lbs) and my heavier 40 U-320 with slide towing a slightly heavier honda element has no issues stopping without any braking system. In hindsight, just doing without braking system at all might have been your best bet.
Good luck Don, sorry for your hassles, and I know you will figure it out. Hopefully you didn't flat spot your tires. I pulled my Element with Parking brake on two times and ruined two sets of rear brakes and rotors, luckily no fire from brakes and tires rolled and brakes didn't overheat rim and bead to blow tire
Ouch!
Unfortunately, you need the towed vehicle brakes in California.
Did your installer not install the brakes on indicator led? Mine is beside the MDX left headlight, under the lens. Clearly visible from time rearview camera.
You know who did my install, Redlands Truck and RV, using my AFO purchased on eBay, and they did a great job for a reasonable price. Not too far from your home base, might be worth having them look it over.
Just be sure to get a price before they do anything. I asked them to turn an awning lock I was having trouble with, and two minutes on a ladder cost me $100. But they did free it up so I can now turn it with the wand.
The LED indicator was installed by us on the towed rear view mirror. I could see it from the backup camera during our testing. What we didn't do was a rolling check to make sure the wheels turned freely. My reasoning was that if the towed brake pedal isn't pressed, the wheels on the towed should turn freely. That is what is weird... the brake pedal appears to be on the upper stop after the coach brakes have been released (I checked by reaching my hand up underneath the dash), but the brakes are still applied while the air line is connected. I tested the breakaway cable switch before we ever started and it appears to function normally. I still haven't had a chance to investigate further yet, but we found to our dismay that the four brand new tires put on at Herman Powers in NAC are toast... Another $650 will put it right, but I won't hook up the $#%#%$&@ AF1 again until I figure this out.
Tim, at this point I would have to say that I agree with you. The reason I sprung for the system is that Canada apparently requires it and we plan on going up there in the spring, California not withstanding. Just trying to put this experience behind me as soon as possible. Their botched install or defective unit, whichever it may has ended up costing me $1050 so far, and I still have to remedy it myself!
Don
Check your messages got my phone number. I had the same problem.
That should say check your messages and see if you got my phone number. I had the same problem and I think I can explain it better on the phone than I can in text.
Don - sorry to hear of your problems. We use the Roadmaster Brakemaster on our Fit. FOT did the install with the breakaway system and it has preformed flawlessly for 20k. I have also felt the expensive pain of replacing Fit tires due to their unusual size - big buck for such small tires... Anyhow, once you get your setup functioning you'll find that the Fit tows well.
Thanks Mark... unusual size to say the least! We are lucky that Discount Tires has four in stock. Herman Powers in Nac had to order them and the selection was limited. The Fit has been towing perfectly this whole trip before the AF1 install, never felt the need for more braking at all. Need to be 50 state and Canada legal though...
Don
Don,
Too bad they screwed it up. Sounds like you had a bad installer.
If you overlooked my post, you should pay particular attention to how my brake activation light is actuated (separate switch).
Also, after all toad attachments are done DW walks along side the toad (px side) for about 50 feet as I watch in the mirror for any signal from her. We have always hooked up level and never need to use the toad parking brake.
Good luck,
Rick D.
In defence of the Air Force 1 brake system, I had MOT install it, both on the coach and the F150, never been an issue. No recall of the cost for the system and installing, but it works so I feel happy.
I also tried the M&G system, but upon looking at both the unit and the instructions, there was no way it would fit without massive inner fender cut/rework/moving circuit breaker box, when time to sell it, would look so bad. So sent back for a cheerful refund (I think).
Bottom line after about 25,000+ towing miles, not a wimper from me or the F150.
Dave M
I had MOT install an Air Force One too. Cost 1200 for the system and 937 to install.
Its beginning to sound like it might be cheaper to change cars. The M-G works on a Subaru.
Don, come on over to Tucson. We will get it fixed.
Wonder if the air tap on the coach is for the park brake release rather than the service brakes
Parking brake air supply... Sounds like a real possibility, but it doesn't seem to explain the brakes being full on without the towed brake pedal being depressed or the red LED indicator not being on while the brakes are locked up, does it??? I will need to get out the Meritor manual and see which supply is the parking brake release air. Thanks for the suggestion...
Don
Don you might want to call AirForce One and explain your situation. I'm pretty sure they will do whatever is required to get you going. One bad review can really hurt their business and if they have a rogue installer out there they will want to know. They could also point you to a dealer that has more experience with diesel pushers. At least give them the chance to make it right. Just present your case and list your expectations. Just keep your cool (which should be easy for you!)
My .02.
see ya
ken
Thanks Ken,
I do plan to call them but I would like to figure out what went wrong before I present my case. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the parking brake air supply being the culprit. If the vacuum booster is activated from the air supply from the coach and the control module is getting its signal for the break pedal servo and brake light indicator from the brake light wire from the coach, that may explain it. If I can't figure it out definitively, I will get with their tech-support and try to determine whether is install problem or defective module. Either way, in order to make it right they would have to rebate me the cost of the new tires. Somehow I don't think that will happen, but at this point I will settle for a working system.
Don
Here are a couple of pictures of one of the trashed tires...
Ouch! That hurts. I feel your pain. See some of my previous adventures... :))
see ya
ken
AirForce One is a good product and most are happy with it. But it is one of the most complicated tow brakes on the market and requires quite a bit of installation. They use large air brake relay valve that makes two taps to air lines on the motorhome and send another air line to the toad. Because they use a small low power air cylinder to pull the brake pedal, it requires a vacuum pump (that drains toad battery a little) to create power brake vacuum normally created by a running gasoline engine. And this pump is tapped into the toad vacuum line.
We all like the simple procedure when getting ready to tow, but I am turned off by the many parts that have to work. The company does not promote the details of what it takes to do its job.
By the way, we purchased a Roadmaster brake light bracket and switch that turns on motorhome dash LED whenever the brake pedal is not at full off/up position. It requires a wire connection from toad to motorhome dash. I see this switch has also been installed by other Forum members. It operates completely independently from any braking system and lets us know when toad brake pedal has been pressed and when it is fully up.
I purchased an Airforce One from an online source and installed it myself. The instructions were easy to follow and it was a simple install. It took me a couple of days, but I choose to be slow and methodical. The system works great. I installed a 'red' light on the coach dash that illuminates whenever the 'towed' brakes are actuated, which is rare because I use the retarder most of the time except for complete stops.
The service brakes on the 'towed' are proportionally controlled by the foot pressure on the coach brake pedal. The braking is entirely pneumatic. There are no electrics involved.
However, the emergency brake function on the 'towed' requires 12 volts. If the pin in the breakaway switch is pulled out of the switch by the lanyard that is attached to the coach, a solenoid valve in the 'operating unit' (the black box installed in the towed) functions to set and lock the brakes in the 'towed'.
Perhaps the problem is in the breakaway switch circuit. The breakaway switch has an orange and a blue wire. The orange wire should be connected to a constant 12 volt power source on the 'towed' through a 15 amp fuse that is supplied with the kit. The blue wire should be connected to the blue wire exiting the 'black box'. The white wire exiting the 'black box' should be connected to a good ground on the 'towed'. The electric circuit is that simple.
The brake light switch is a separate system.
Something else to check.. thanks!
Don
Howdy Barry and Cindy,
Is this what you installed? Brake Light Switch Kit - By Roadmaster (http://www.hitchsource.com/brake-light-switch-kit-p-29081.html) of course, need to choose the correct vehicle.
Thanks for your input, Dave and Nancy A
Hi Dave & Nancy,
Yep, that is the right place, except we used eTrailer.com. Our bracket is similar to the one in the photo and the switch is exactly the same. Even though the page says designed for Roadmaster braking systems, these are standalone parts that have nothing to do with braking systems. Switch mounting is adjustable and places the switch so the plunger is depressed when brake pedal is at full up position. You may want to call Roadmaster support for exact part number for your beautiful Jeep Wrangler Unlimited. For example, our Jeep Grand, uses Roadmaster P/N 751449.
We ran a single wire from Jeep switch to a motorhome dash LED. Even though it is not needed for our Jeep, we installed LSL Toad-Charge to keep our Jeep battery from discharging, which is helpful on long trips where we don't disconnect for many days.
Roadmaster has a vehicle specific page that offers good info, even if not using a Roadmaster braking product.
We used the Roadmaster web page to find a steel seat bracket that is used to quickly attach an air cylinder, and purchased a few unique shaped 'fuse taps' (those gadgets that present a wire connection from a tab that touches a fuse leg). I did call Roadmaster and bought the seat bracket & fuse taps directly from Roadmaster.
Howdy Barry and Cindy,
Thanks for your reply and information. We use a Brake Buddy system, and it has a wireless "brake activated" warning system. I'm not really "in love" with it, so thinking about changing to a hard wired warning light.
I really like the idea of a switch attached to the brake pedal. Did you source the 12vdc for the dash warning light from the towed or the coach? If you sourced from the towed, and only used one wire, then you used coach ground for other side of light?
My current wireless light transmitter is sourced from the Brake Buddy, and the receiver is powered in the coach.
Thanks for your help/advice, Dave and Nancy A
I vote for this probability ... and running the toad-brakes-applied signal to a light on your dash (vice something to look for in the rear view mirror or camera).
A dash mounted light is a good idea and certainly on my project list. As far as the breakaway switch being the culprit, I tested it before we started and pulling it out applied the brake pedal and activated the LED indicator. The pedal appeared to release when the coach brake pedal was released, but the toad wheels were locked. Even if the toad's pedal was slightly depressed but not enough turn on the toads brake light, the wheels would still be able to roll, just not freely.
Right now, we are here in Havesue to have a good time so I am going to shelve in depth trouble shooting the AF1 for later. I do however want to determine the source of the metered air and see if the installer hooked up to the parking brake air supply.
Don
Don, Reading all this it is mystifying to say the least. What comes to my mind is that if brakes still locked and no application of air .... Is pressure being released from the master cylinder ? Don't know why it would not release but its one scenario.
On an US Gear system that I removed from a friends Honda I found a one way valve in the vacuum line, have no idea why but reading this maybe there is a relationship. On that system would vacuum still be applied to master cylinder booster even tho brakes released ? I know I have been no decisive help but good luck with it.
Gary B
Don, My son and I have installed three Air Force ones the thing to look at is the T connection on the vacuum line. It has a check valve that must be set in the correct direction per instructions. If set opposite it may do what your seeing check valve. Elliot
Howdy Dave & Nancy,
Yep, we use a ground wire between motorhome & jeep that is part of our tow wiring plug. And the Roadmaster switch is wired to Jeep battery (though a small amp fuse). For such an important function, probably better to not rely on wireless signal and to have an independent party reporting on brake pedal movement. Part of our get-ready to drive off, I stand behind Jeep to check for turn signals & brake lights, and Cindy makes sure the motorhome dash light comes on when she presses motorhome brake pedal.
To determine what amp fuse to use, I use a low amp fuse and if it blows, I put in the next size, etc. Measuring amps with a meter also can work.
You guys take care and be safe.
So it appears that the parking brake theory is the correct one. This is a bit surprising because it seems to me that this part of the braking system is similar to SOB coaches that have air brakes though they mostly use drum brakes, which I would guess would be most diesel pushers. I called the SMI helpline and texted him these pictures. The first shows where the installer put the tee and the second shows where he should have put it.
Don
Howdy Barry and Cindy,
Your "independent party" comment is exactly why I'm thinking of installing a warning light system, triggered off of Brake Pedal.
As always, thanks for your help/advice, Dave and Nancy A
According to a vendor at a booth in Q, the vacuum is created by a venturi connected to the coach air, no electric needed.
"According to a vendor at a booth in Q, the vacuum is created by a venturi connected to the coach air, no electric needed"
Be very wary of vendors at any trade show. They do not represent the company. The installers could be hired off the street with questionable credentials.
As always. FWIW
Don, glad that you confirmed my idea, have seen that done a few times while I worked in a large dealership.
Sometimes the guy doing the install does not know what the spring brake is. That is where experience pays off. Sometimes experience comes at the expense of someone else. Good luck on getting your issue resolved.
Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.
- Mark Twain
@Tom haven't heard that one and I love Mark Twain. Good one...
see ya
ken
Ron, you and Dave M. Both hit the nail right on the head... Just another reason to love this forum! Thanks to you both and everybody who posted suggestions. It is always easier to solve a problem when you have a starting point. I have switched over the metered air supply tee to the service brake port, but have yet to test it. You can bet that we will be darn sure the wheels are rolling freely on the toad before we hit the road!
The installer has agreed to reimburse me of most of the cost of the new tires, but that door won't be closed until I have the check cashed and the funds in my hands...
Don
@Don great news. Glad you are getting reimbursed. Eases the pain a little. :))
see ya
ken
For me the big news side is the system can apply braking to the point of lockup, makes me feel better as was wondering just how effective they really were. Also delighted the system is not activated by the retarder or sone other magic crap, just the service brakes. PTL
I love simplicity. ;D
Dave M
+1
I feel my rig & towed stops better with the afo than the coach alone.
+ 1 here also. No issues at all.
Richard B
Don,
Glad you got things worked out. We're very happy with ours and I'm sure you will be also.
Rich