Cruising along and white smoke pouring out exhaust lost power and engine shut down. Thank goodness at the ramp of rest area! Sat few minutes and pumped accelerator several times and it cranked. Ran for a minute and then started smoking again and shut down.
Generator ran for a few minutes and did the same thing. Current fuel has been in tank for the last 800 miles with no issues. Glass vole is showing erratic fuel level and even foaming once. Low in volume. Seems as though the fuel is not getting from the fuel tank.
Mechanic on telephone thought it was the 'pick-up' pump which takes fuel out of the fuel tank and works in conjunction with injectors?
Any had the problem or maybe she'd some light? If possible, I would like to fix on site.
Thanks,
David
White smoke indicates raw fuel exiting in exhaust system. You don't have a pick-up pump(lift pump) on your engine. Where are you and where are you going? Since both engine and generator are affected, are you heading north burning southern fuel perhaps? Going from low to high altitude?
Brett,
In Alabama, staying in Alabama. Outside temp is 40F. Altitude steady and is southern fuel.
David
Dip the tank to see how far up from the bottom it is. Don't rely on the gauge. Have you added fuel? Main engine should have a different tank pickup than the generator. Other same model owners, is that correct?
Pierce
Unburned fuel= black smoke , white exhaust = water ,as in steam . Change fuel filters , maybe more than once and always have spares .Been there done that . Brad Metzger
White smoke occurs when raw diesel comes through the exhaust completely intact and unburned. Could be bad injectors. I would he a GOOD diesel mechanic look at the engine.
Roland
Sudden stop of both engine and generator is fuel related. No fuel in tank or algae clogging filters or pickup failure if only one fuel pickup point.
White smoke can also be fuel related. Water related white smoked dissipates quickly, fuel related drifts away.
Pierce
I would change filters first too. That both stopped tells me it is fuel related. Good advice given.
How long has fuel been in tank? 800 miles at about 7 mpg is about 115 gallons consumed. Running on low fuel tank levels cause fuel to heat up from warm returning fuel. We usually fill up at about half tank or so, partly to be safe and to keep fuel in tank cooler. If you are temporarily getting lower mpg, you may be too low for safety.
If you had water in tank, could that cause a problem? Get it running to the first fuel fill-up stop before doing drastic things to resolve problem.
(We also try to not fill at a pump that also dispenses gasoline, to prevent the problem that a few friends have had. It is truck stops for us, usually Flying J / Pilot.)
What Brad M said. My first thought would be water in the fuel indicated by the white smoke,
Richard B
Were there water in the fuel, it would be VERY obvious in the primary fuel filter.
Have you drained some of the fuel from the primary filter into a clear glass container-- what did you find?
You might even get a water in fuel light on the dash.
You are in the bottom portion of your tank where water acumalates from both stations and condisation. Rail Road equipment is required to refuel everyday after running for 10 hours to cut down on condensation. In a 200 gal. Tank I have drained as much as 5-7 gallons out of the bottom. Throw filters at it. Make sure you prime them first. High quality fuel dispersing additive to make the water fall to the bottom, then take a small fuel pump and suck it off the bottom until it is clean fuel. My experience.
My guess is still with the algae. Brett is right on that water would be visible in the "sight glass" on the filter. If water was present, it would have shown up hundreds of miles earlier if the tank had not been topped off since the last fill. Algae is much more insidious. Never know when it is going to show up but it usually gives a warning on hills before the engine totally quits. Water at the injectors would be serious if the engine were warm as it is very possible for the expanding steam to blow off the tip of some injectors. White smoke that dissipates quickly while driving usually indicates a blown head gasket. On very cold morning without the block heater, we get thick black smoke for a few seconds and then once several cylinders have fired, lots and lots of grey white smoke that seem to stay around forever if the wind is not blowing. Once the last cylinder is firing, the smoke instantly quits. Nice to be able to have air pressure so you can quickly leave the scene of the crime.
Pierce
Like water in the primary fuel filter, algae is easy to detect. It will appear as black slimy or particulates in the primary fuel filter.
Drain some and see what you get-- WITH ENGINE OFF.
My new Racor has no sight glass. I wonder how many do... I can see though in the genset primary.
If your Racor filter element is open at both ends, a plastic see through cap with a drain will thread onto one end. Some models have a water probe also. I think Cummins uses this type as a secondary filter rather than the primary as the Detroit does. Different micron rating also. Cummins is 5 microns and Detroit is 30 microns as I remember. (secondary filters have a finer or lower micron rating)
Pierce
If both engines are doing the same thing remove genset primary or first filter and pour it in a clear container to see. Napa and wix now has a filter that will screw in place of Racor it does have a drain though. Drain some in a clear container to see what is there.
Does anyone use an additive to remove water from fuel tank and lines?? I use one at every fill up and I also use it to increase the lubricity that is reduced by the lower sulfur diesel that is required these days. Thanks and have a great day ---- Fritz
Fritz,
WHat is the brand of the additive you use?
Jerry
I have been adding the Lucas diesel additive. Not sure on the water in fuel mixing effect but the engine idles noticeably smoother. Quite amazing.
Quart per 100 gallon ratio. Coach vibrates at idle without it. With it added its totally smooth.
Valves and injectors adjusted recently prior to the additive use. Mechanic said it raises the Cetane rating?
And how long time wise has it been in there?
We add Diesel Kleen, gray container, from Walmart, with every fill.
DIESEL KLEEN® +Cetane Boost®: Max HP Formula ? use during non-winter months for (http://www.powerservice.com/dk/)
What's going on , David ? Are you still setting there broke down or what . Did you change filters , or waiting for a tow truck . Keep us informed . We all want to help you . Brad Metzger
Diesel Lubricity Additive Study Results | Fuels and Fuel Additives: Gasoline and (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1784831)
This study was done a few years ago and many of you may have read it. It gives you an idea of what works and what does not of 20 products out there.
I have allways used Amsoil additives conservatively and it rates better than what a lot of you may be using but definitly not the best. Some like Lucas are worse than not using it !!!
I use the Cetane and Cold Flow too at times.
FWIW
JohnH
I filled up with a bad load of diesel out in the California desert years ago and quickly developed a severe diesel knock at all engine speeds. I kept the speed down and limped to a truck stop and dumped in a quart of additive. Within a few seconds, the knock was totally gone. Made a believer out of me.
John,
That article is good for choosing the most effective additive. Plus, think the "prince of darkness" probably migrated from electrical components to fuel additives.
Pierce
I use this stuff: http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/docs/D_brochure.pdf (http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/docs/D_brochure.pdf). It is a local product for me. All the local government highway departments (think snowplows and sanding trucks) use this stuff. Really like it.
Funny, when I was in SD they have pumps that you can pick your own blend from 100% #1 to 100% #2 and in 10% increments. They just put # 2 in the summer but in april they still had both. YEs you get less heat and therefore less power. My engine was make to run and that is what I do with it.
Water would( at least ) settle to the bottom of the tank where the engine pickup is,the generator pickup is at a higher level in the tank.
I would think that would be good fuel above any water.
Have you checked the fuel level in the tank with a stick?
It could be you didn't get a good (full) load of fuel last time and you may have run it down past the generator fuel pickup.
With fuel to low foaming might affect you main engine.
I think I would add 10 or 15 gallons of fuel and see if anything runs before I spent any money on a tow or a mechanic.
It sure wouldn't hurt even if that's not the problem, you'll have that fuel to use later.
The difference between #1 and #2 diesel is only about 2000 btu. Not enough to be noticed. Bio-diesel takes the big hit at over 10,000 btu less or only about 3% more than pure gasoline. Don't think our gasoline mix here in California has 124K BTUs.
I ran out of diesel on a long voyage and had to start into the 5 gallon containers of kerosene I had strapped on deck. The evil Perkins didn't seem to notice the difference.
Here is a good energy comparison link: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf)
Pierce
Jerry ---- I use "diesel fuel supplement" by power services. I also add a quart of ATF at every fill up. I usually fill up at around 100 gallons in a 150 gallon tank. Engine runs very smoothly (even at idle) and has little emissions on start up if you let it warm up well before getting under way. I entered this on this thread because the white smoke emissions may be water related and an additive is important in getting rid of it.
David ---- Hope you were able to get underway again without a major fix of some kind.
Have a great day ---- Fritz
Update... Wrecker company was going to be delayed so we opted to leave and take care of the next day. Got the coach back to Birmingham and safe. Cummins dealer was closed for weekend so we will tow tomorrow. As soon as I find out what is going on I will report back..thanks for everyone's support.
David
David, Glad to see you got off the road. Instead of towing you might try to find a mobile cummins mechanic to check things out. There should be a few in the Birmingham area. As others have said towing should be your last option, due to collateral damage.
Yes, especially since all sources don't come up with the same figure. I did look at another site and the #2 was about the same with #1 2100 BTUs more. Did a really quick search but before I have found gasoline about 113K and #2 diesel about 129K so the ratio is close to the same. I do wonder if the #6 diesel is the same as bunker fuel the ships run. Too bad we can't run that as it has about 155K BTUs/gallon. On the other hand, there must be a reason they are going to be required to change fuel within X miles from land.
California #2 diesel and #2 fuel oil are exactly the same with only the dye making a visible difference.
Here is a chart closer to what I have read before. The B20 bio diesel is close to #1 diesel in BTUs and cut emissions by a large margin. Ethanol or methanol don't do us any favors with energy/gallon do they? The gallon figures on the right are the amount of gallons it takes to be equivalent to a gallon of gasoline.
Gasoline Gallon Equivalents
Fuel Type Unit of Measure BTUs/Unit Gallon Equivalent
Gasoline (regular) gallon 114,100 1.00 gallon
Diesel #2 gallon 129,500 0.88 gallons
Biodiesel (B100) gallon 118,300 0.96 gallons
Biodiesel (B20) gallon 127,250 0.90 gallons
Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) cubic foot 900 126.67 cu. ft.
Liquid Natural Gas (LNG)gallon 75,000 1.52 gallons
Propane (LPG) gallon 84,300 1.35 gallons
Ethanol (E100) gallon 76,100 1.50 gallons
Ethanol (E85) gallon 81,800 1.39 gallons
Methanol (M100) gallon 56,800 2.01 gallons
Methanol (M85) gallon 65,400 1.74 gallons
Electricity kilowatt hour (Kwh) 3,400 33.56 Kwhs
Don't know if you read the article about natural gas actually polluting more than diesel because of the methane release during fracking operations. Other states have come up with the same conclusion. Can't believe it would be that hard to seal up any loss (but expensive). New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/14/us/study-finds-methane-leaks-negate-climate-benefits-of-natural-gas.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/14/us/study-finds-methane-leaks-negate-climate-benefits-of-natural-gas.html?_r=0)
Pierce
David ---- If you end up having to tow the rig and they have to disconnect the drive line (High probability), I would recommend that when the drive line gets reconnected that you use new universal joints. Bad things can happen if you re-use the old ones unless they are very carefully handled and maintained. Have a great day ---- Fritz
David, thanks for the play by play on your tow. Nice to know that some tow drivers do the right thing.
When only one axle is removed, the tire with the axle still in place must turn the differential spider gears way more than they would normally be rotated, which may have negative issues. I would think removing both axles is a safer way, especially if being towed fast or far.
We installed two eye-bolts near the center of our rear wide mud flap. Before lowering the coach rear during leveling, we wrap a lightweight chain with hooks at either end over the hitch to keep the mud flap horizontal to prevent it from being squished.
Thanks for the info guys. I have always worried about disconnecting the drive shaft in case of a tow. This sounds like a much better option to me, not to mention the fact that I would have questioned the axle pull if I was not familiar with it. I think that this should be included in the owners manual.
Ok. I'm back with my embarrassed tail between my legs! Everything stopped because I was low on fuel/out of fuel. That is right. All of my calculations told me I still had fuel. I have another thread on the forum about fuel gauge accuracy. Two things happened. One, my old brain made a miscalculation on math. Second, I would be interested in feed back here, the coach will quit with 25 gallons or so left in tank..
Let me explain. Since it was empty (?) I completely filled up. It would only hold 172 gallons. With a 194 gallon tank there must be a point at which it will not pick up fuel. Hence giving you a about 170 gallons before you stall. I guess if you had a 150 gallon tank you would stall at 125 gallons, etc. This is the part I would like clarity on. Also, I am never going below a 1/2 tank again!!!!
The issue with the generator was simply the byproduct of fuel tank being below the 1/4 tank threshold for safety cutoff. At the time, think I had plenty of fuel, this possibility was dismissed from the equation. Since I was not actually using the generator at the time when we first stalled, it became part of the symptoms since a few hours later when it became cold we turned on. It ran for about a minute or so and then quit. In hind site, I am guessing it quit when the fuel in the line was used up?
Anyway, I am very grateful for everyone's input. I learned a lot about additives too. Also, learned that running out fuel is another reason white smoke appears!!!
Also, I have Good Sam Roadside assistance. They were very good through it all. I was pleased with everyone I spoke with. With the Cummins dealer closed for the weekend, they wanted to tow somewhere so the coach would be safe. Then, on Monday morning, they contracted with the wrecker company to come back and tow again. That is above and beyond in my book.
David
Chuck,
Missed your post and just read it. Count the number of bolts and then compare to the covers sold at Price List - Blank Title (http://www.axlecap.net/price-list.html) . Might be the MR8D-1 but best to count and compare.
David,
Easy to make that mistake. That's why I suggested dipping the tank for fuel especially with the symptoms you described. A tape measure works well. Just remove the fuel cap and extend it down to the bottom. There will be a line at a certain spot on the tape when you pull it back up. That's how I figure fuel mileage without even looking at the receipt or gauge, just the ODO.
About 1975, I bought a 220D in Germany to travel around in. It seemed to be getting good mileage and the gauge slowly crept down. It appeared to be getting even better mileage after it hit the quarter tank mark. Suddenly, the engine hesitated and then died while on the Autobahn. What was wrong with the engine? After all, I still had a quarter tank (for the last two hours). The Autobahn has far fewer exits than our highways but I was very fortunate to be heading slightly downhill and was able to coast to the next exit and fuel. Algae had collected on the sliding resistor sending unit in the tank and the gauge simply stopped at the quarter mark.
Glad you're back on the road. Your experience is a good lesson for all of us.
Pierce
Pierce,
The name Bunker Fuel comes from the days of coal bunkers on ships. It is a generic term for fuel. A ship refueling is still referred to as "taking bunkers" in many parts of the world. #6 fuel is very thick and needs heating before it can be pumped. Changing over from the heavy fuel oils to lighter fuels is required by emission control regulations as heavy fuels are very dirty especially in sulfur content. Change over has a number of problems as older engines are not designed for easy change over leading to power being lost at in-opportune times. Ships also change to lighter fuels as they approach port as lighter fuels allow for easier engine operation for maneuvering purposes.
Keith
David ---- Glad to hear that you are underway again. If it were me in this situation, I would drain/sample the fuel tank just to verify one way or the other that water is/is not present. But, I'm kind of an overkill person, so that's just a suggestion from me. Have a great day ---- Fritz