Foretravel Owners' Forum

I've been having some problems with overheating the last few months. To make a long story short took the coach into WW Williams in Tucson, AZ to do some diagnostics. They found the fan motor was only turning at 800 RPM at 2100 engine RPM. From what I have heard that should be closer to 2000 RPM. They want to replace the fan motor. Before I do that I want to understand how the hydraulics work on my coach. Unfortunately I don't have a diagram in my docs and Foretravel doesn't have anything for a coach older than 1994. :( I've drawn my own diagram but it doesn't make sense to me! I have very little hydraulics experience so the check valves, valve blocks, and tees make my head dizzy. With the layout of hoses and tees I don't see how any pressure is built to power the fan motor.

I'm including the diagram I put together with several pictures of the check valves, valve blocks and hose layout. If someone out there is willing to make a stab at explaining it to me I will be very grateful.

My system is equipped with a Hi/Low switch that is supposed to save on fuel by not requiring as much horsepower to run at lower RPM. If someone can explain how this works that would be great too! The Hi/Low was disabled by the PO. I've heard that when that is done it defaults to Hi mode all of the time.

Some of you might remember that I replaced my hydraulic pump last year. Hydraulic pump on last leg (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17447.0) At that time I made a rookie mistake and did a poor job of labeling the hoses on the output side of the pump. It is possible 3 and 4 hose (see diagram) may be reversed. The pump is a tandem pump which means both sides run continuously. I don't have the spec for the pump but the output nearest to the pulley is a little bigger than the one furthest from the pulley. I assume that means it puts out more volume than the other. Looking at the diagram I don't see that it would make that much difference but it may.

I am especially puzzled by the Hydraforce and the Sun Hydraulics. The Hydraforce is what provides the Hi/Low capability and I'm pretty sure the Sun Hydraulics does some pressure regulation. I've included pictures of each.

Anyway if you have the time please take a look and explain to me as if I was a small child. :)

see ya
ken

 

Ken, I can't really tell if ours is similar.  On the 95 280 there is a solenoid that opens on temp and allows more pressure to flow to fans increasing their RPM.  I would think that yours would be similar.  Should run at slow RPM when cold and when hot at high RPM.  Better check with owner of similar coaches to yours.
Gary B

I noticed I didn't include the hose numbers in the picture of the fan motor. Here it is.

see ya
ken

Ken, I notice at your photo HYDRAFORCE 10 that this looks like a solenoid.  Is this the solenoid that would allow higher pressure to the fan moptors ? Follow the hoses, I would think that the hose coming from the pump would have the solenoid it i Is there any power ( 12V ) to that solenoid ?
Gary B

@Gary That is a solenoid you see but no power to it. It was disconnected by the PO. I do plan to put it back into the system. There is melted plastic on the solenoid so obviously a short of some type in the past. It's been this way since at least 2010.

see ya
ken

Ken,

Wish I could help but ours is not the same with a small pump and two fans. Same model, same year but much different.

Optical tachometers are dirt cheap and will make it easy to tell fan RPM as you make changes. A good hydraulic shop should be able to trace the hoses and figure out how to bring the RPM up. Would call around or try other RV forums for the right guys. Here is a link to an optical tach: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=hand+held+tachometer&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.H0.Xoptical+tachometer&_nkw=optical+tachometer&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=hand+held+tachometer&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.H0.Xoptical+tachometer&_nkw=optical+tachometer&_sacat=0)

Would offer to check ours but we are on the other side of the world for a few more weeks.

Pierce

Ken,

How about posting your question on the Bluebird/Wanderlodge forum? There are a lot of them out there with Detroit 2 cycles in a big percentage.

Link: http://wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1293 (http://wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1293)

Pierce

Ken,

Was just thinking that we have just the opposite fan setup. I might only have one fan but having a blank remembering who had what and can't look at ours now. Think Bill C has the same as our 93.

P

Ken ----  Your fan motor looks about the same as the one on our 91 GV, but the rest doesn't look familiar.  On our 91, the fan motor only runs at one speed that I have ever noticed and only runs when the high temp set point is reached (about 200 deg.).  When the engine cools to about 180 deg., the fan shuts off.  Do you have information that tells you that your fan is a variable speed?  Maybe ours is supposed to be a variable speed and isn't working properly.  Is your fan driven by the power steering hydraulics?  Have a great day  ----  Fritz

My '93 U300, with v92, Has two fans, a solenoid valve, a 185 degree control switch, a switch on left hand  switch panel that by-passes the 185 degree switch  ( shuts off power (electrical ) ) to the solenoid and speeds up the fan's, ( same as when reaching 185/180 degrees )

1. The solenoid reduces the fluid by-passed, increasing not only pressure, but also volume, which results in higher fan speed. It is a fail safe system in that lost of electrical power causes the fan to go to high speed.

2. The fans, regardless of speed,  can not do their work if the thermostats do not do their job.

My '93 U300, Kent's U300 and you '93 U300 all have different systems.
   
      Mine is as described above, and works quite well, once I replaced the thermostat's
     
      Yours is the same as mine, but has been intentionally disabled, ( by removing the wire from the  185 degree switch ) allowing the fans to run @ hi-speed all the time .

      Kent states that he was told @ FOT, that his was a hi-speed setup, fan rpm being controlled only by engine speed.

        Pierce has the same set-up as my motorhome.
       
        You and Kent have put-up with warmer that what I consider normal engine temps for a long time.

 I had a spell of cycling warmer ( the temp would cycle to about 195 degrees ( gauge )) and then return to about 180 degrees ( gauge) until I changed out the thermostats. Now it stays about 180 to 185 all the time, with no cycling of the fans. (even on the hills ( have not been in the mountains yet though ))

hope this helps.

bill

 

@Pierce I bought a Digital Photo Tachometer from Amazon for $15 to double check the fan speed. Works great. Used my Prime 2 day shipping and got it the next day!

@Fritz I don't think my fan is variable speed. I'm pretty sure the speed is controlled by the solenoid which changes the pressure.

@Bill I bought thermostats and will probable change them out down the road but when I found out the fan speed was only 800rpm decided to fix that first. I'm going to need a water pump pretty soon too...

see ya
ken

Ken,
You are wise to not just let them replace the motor - they are likely just guessing at your expense.  Don't get me wrong I've been to their parts department many times when I lived in Tucson and they are terrific guys, but this stuff is Foretravel custom and you can't expect them to know it.  Now, I don't know hydraulics that well but looking at your diagram here's how I think your system works... but it's just my guess. 

I'm thinking one of the two valves is leaking when it should be closed.  I would disassembly and inspect.  Maybe before that I would power the hydraforce valve and see if you can detect a change in motor RPM.

@Fitz Thanks! That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't thought of that at all. I really need to get a handle on how the Sun Hydraulics & the Hydraforce work. I haven't had much luck with google yet but haven't really sat down and gone at it yet either. :) Probably do that in the morning.

see ya
ken

Ken - If you could use a little muscle, moral support and a third and fourth hand, I am avaialable.  We have nothing pressing the rest of this week.  :D

Check the Sun Hydraulics piece-- many have adjustable pressure settings (by bleeding off pressure it takes less HP).  If there is a cap on one end, remove it.  You may find a lock nut and allen head screw.  Screwing in increases PSI.  James Triana should be able to give you the specs for max system PSI.

Brett

@Fritz Looking at the PDF you sent I think my system most closely fits the third page. Since the Hydraforce solenoid has been disconnected I think it is always in the closed mode.

@Brett Reevaluating my diagram using the third page from Fritz's PDF I think you are correct to suspect the Sun Hydraulics. I'm pretty sure it's a pressure regulator. It makes sense that if it is not holding the correct pressure i.e.: spilling too much fluid back into the reservoir that the fan speed would drop.

So I'm zeroing in on 2 possibilities.

• Bad Sun Hydraulics

• Worn out fan motor

[/list]

I'm thinking that if I have a pressure gauge put on the input to the fan motor that would tell me if the pressure is getting to the fan motor. If it is that would mean the fan motor is the problem if not the Sun Hydraulics gets the blame.

I've attached a flow diagram based on Fritz's "wild ass guess". :) Thanks again Fritz! In this diagram the Hydraforce is lined out since it's been disconnected. I do plan to put it back into the circuit after I get the slow fan speed resolved.

see ya
ken

Ken,

The Sun Hydraulic is easily adjustable.  I know on our U240, a couple of turns changed PSI from a few hundred PSI (winter setting) to over 1500 PSI. So, try adjusting it FIRST.

@Brett Is the adjustment under the black spot on the side of the Sun Hydraulic? There is also a nut and bolt on the end. I just assumed it was a stop nut to close off that port. Could it be under there?

see ya
ken

Ken,

On mine, the adjustment is on the end.  There was a cap on mine. Removing the cap exposed the lock nut and screw.  The screw required an allen wench.  Screwing in raised PSI.

Ken  ----  Clarification  ----  There is a "Fritz" and that is me, and there is a "Fitz" that sent you the PDF drawing.  Close, but no cigar!!  Have a great day  ----  Fritz

Ack! Just shows you need to read all of the letters not just the ones you think you see. :) Thanks for the correction Fritz and apologies to Fitz!

see ya
ken

No worries, Ken.  Let us know what you figure out on this.  I'm interested in knowing.

OK here is my two cents. The hydroforce is a electric valve that has a relief built in it. Your pump is a gear pump that produces oil flow and flow is directly related to engine rpm. Your fan really is a single speed fan but changes rpm by the engine rpm increase. The hydraforce when energized will probably divert some oil back to tank which slows fan speed. No power will make all of the flow go thru the fan resulting in higher rpm. Now the relief that has been described screws in the block it will have allen set stem with a lock but and probably a cover that screws over the stem. This is set with a gauge and the setting is determine by the amount of pressure required to turn the fan. And a lot comes into play. Humidity restriction in the radiator like dirt, motor wear (fan),air temp.
  If I was playing with this without a flow meter and a pressure gauge, you already have a tach. I would first carefully pressure wash my radiator then I would run my engine to operating temp and that will require driving it as a detroit make a lot more heat underload. I would back my relief out unscrew the Allen set screw a few turns it is very sensitive you are taking pressure off of a spring. Do not back all the way out. Then run engine at road rpm and turn the relief in and the fan speed should increase. Use your photo tach and stop at proper rpm. Put power on solenoid and see if it increase or decrease. If coil is bad it might blow afuse if shorted out you can buy them at any hydraulic parts house.
  2 speed as it has been refered to really is just more oil flow. And also is for saving hp robbing. These fan motors do fail and are really not to expense if purchased at the right place. You can ohm out your solenoid 12v coil. Need more info pm me and give me a number to call. I deal with this stuff on rail road equipment daily.
Good luck

Alan

Ken's solenoid to control the two speed fan valve has been disconnected.
He is running at the fast speed setting all the time, even @ idle, using up generated horsepower.
Fan speed is controlled by engine RPM only.
Trying to increase fan RPM at travel RPM is not possible with the temperature switch disconnected !
A Previous owner did the disconnect of the temperature switch, so this overheat problem has existed for a long time.

BUT, it sounds like there are TWO controls on his system.  Yes, one is defaulted to high speed.

But, the Sun Hydraulics unit could still be bleeding back pressure (at least that is its job on the U240 installation).

Ken,

Here is a link to Sun Hydraulics with info on their systems.  This is the tech tips page but look around as there is more stuff there.  Check flow rate and pressure as that's the only way to diagnose hydraulic problems.  You will need the proper specs and it's possible Sun can give them to you.

Technical Tips | Sun Hydraulics (http://www.sunhydraulics.com/tech-resources/tech-tips)

@Alan Thanks for your explanation. It is basically what I have come up with from my research. You stated it very well.

@Bill you are correct the solenoid is out of the circuit at the moment. I pulled it yesterday and it shows clears signs of being shorted out. See attached pic. The default position of the solenoid when no power is applied is closed so no fluid is going thru the Hydraforce. I do believe that Alan is correct that if the Hydraforce was working that it would slow the fan by spilling fluid back into the reservoir.

@Bret You too sir are correct. There are 2 controls. The Hydraforce and the Sun Hydraulics. Since the Hydraforce is not activated only the Sun Hydraulics is affecting the circuit.

@Keith Thanks for the links to the docs. There's a bunch of em'. It will take me a while to work thru those!

My current plan is to put a pressure gauge before the motor and see if it's up to specs. I've ordered a 3000psi pressure gauge from Amazon that should be here tomorrow. I plan to have a tee made up so that I can place it just before the inlet to my fan motor. If the psi is up to specs there I figure it has to be the fan motor. I talked to Billy Jack yesterday (@FOT) and he says the motor is not longer made and they have a substitute that requires an adaptor plate and a hub something or other. :) He needed to check with Mike Grimes who was out yesterday so should hear something from Billy Jack later today.

If pressure is low will try to boost by adjusting the Sun Hydraulics if I can find the adjustment. :)

@Alan Do you think I should check flow as well as pressure? I'll have to look for a flow meter. I might have to have a shop do that.

see ya
ken

Should have mentioned that it does look like I can adjust the Sun Hydraulics maybe... See the picture I posted above (it's not very clear). Haven't tried to get an allen wrench in there yet. It's in a spot where I'll have to work blind. :(

see ya
ken

In the hydraulic world oil flow is what creates speed and pressure creates force energy. So with that said they work together. Your pump produces more flow with engine rpm. The fan motor and other restrictions create pressure. If the relief a safety device is set low or there are things that are causing more pressure the oil produced by the pump will be directed back to tank or reservoir and not Thur the fan motor to turn the fan at proper rpm. I understand that the 2 speed controller is disabled and it defaults to max flow. In hydraulic there is not a 2 speed motor. It is variable flow. It is considered 2 speed if the pump is being driven at a constant rpm. Our engines do not do that. 10 mph or 70 mph is different rpm so the pump produces different flow. I will look at mine to make sure there are not any weird valves like a pressure comp valves. They are not common in this type of system

Well said !!

I posted a second post last night and did not see the second page. I believe that the sun device that you talk about is the relief or the circuit safety. A gear pump will build pressure if dead headed until something blows. And oil goes every where. If you are going to use a gauge the proper way to set a relief is to dead head the pump and close the Allen screw until the proper system pressure is met go a little above the spec then back off to set pressure then lock the Allen screw. That is real world. Your world fan motor is old and requires more pressure to turn. I would use the gauge tee before the motor and play with it. Most seals on motors can handle as much as 2000psi. But are oil cooler fan motors run in the 700 to 2000 psi. The higher having another component in serious with the fan. I will post a phone number of a great supply chain that will give you great prices for all of the components. The prices quoted is very high.I buy fan motors like on mine all of the time for under 500. Get the numbers off of the plate and post.

The Sun Hydraulics unit has a huge range of PSI.  When first installed, the fan did not turn at all, even at high engine RPM.  Adjusting it (screwing in) very quickly brought line pressure (measured between pump and fan motor) to 2200 PSI which is the Foretravel spec for maximum PSI in the U240 at governed RPM. I found by experimenting that 1500 PSI was adequate for cooling in all but extreme conditions.

"T" the gauge in, get the specs from James Triana at Foretravel and set it.  Back off PSI if no overheating to save HP and MPG.

Brett

@Brett I hope that's all it takes. If I can just turn a screw and fix this I'll be in ecstatic! If it's like every other repair I've done it's usually the worst case. :) Which in this case will be that I have to replace the fan motor. :( Oh well I do what I gotta do. :)

Still haven't heard back from Billy Jack on cost for a new fan motor... May have to rattle his cage today.

see ya
ken

@Alan The fan motor is a John S. Barnes GM5-25-HF11R6-20-R-EU. When I talked to Billy Jack he referred to it as a GM5. Thanks for the help!

see ya
ken

Thought I'd mention that the gauge I ordered is due in today. Probably late today so will be tomorrow before I can get it in. Will post details and pics once have it installed.

see ya
ken

I would play with the relief before I bought anything. I have seen reliefs get trash in them and stick open causing bypass to tank. And system won't build pressure. After you have been running feel the different components for heat. If there is big heat difference that is an indication of bypass. Another test is to take the case drain line off the fan motor put in bucket run for a minute and see how much oil bypassed. Should be very little. Before make sure your tank is full. I will ck on motor.

Got a lot done today. Visited 3 hydraulics shops on Tucson here and got almost everything I needed.

• Tee and adaptors to mount pressure gauge

• New solenoid for Hydraforce

• New set screw for adjustment on Sun Hydraulics

[/list]

I was able to pull the sent screw out of the Sun Hydraulics but was not able to budge the lock nut on the set screw. See pics below. Was hoping to get a new one.

At Motion Industries got a new solenoid for the Hydraforce. Talked to the guy about how to get the solenoid off. The nut on the end was sort of buried and I couldn't get a wrench on it. He took me back to the shop and went at it with a big vice and some wrenches till he got it off. The shaft the solenoid went on was corroded so he pulled out a monkey wrench and twisted the solenoid off for me. $30 later and I have a new solenoid and the original disassembled. :) Great guy and couldn't have been more helpful. Couldn't help me with the set screw. Tried to come up with the parts to make a tee to put my pressure gauge in but he didn't have everything. He referred me to American Hose and Rubber.

At American Hose and Rubber I show the guy the gauge and tell him the hose size. He takes me in the back and we start walking down row after row of hydraulic parts stopping every now and then to pull something out. On advise of Dave Katsuki decided to mount the gauge remote by adding a short piece of hydraulic hose to the tee. Explained that to the guy he starts pulling parts to make a 3' hose. He also suggests that I get caps for the tee and the end of the hose so I can install and remove the gauge easily. Great idea. I take him up on it. 15 minutes later $17 for parts and $19 for the hose I'm out of there. He couldn't help with the set screw either but referred me to Tucson Fluid Power Technologies.

At Tucson Fluid Power Technologies. Show the guy my set screw he disappears in the back. While I'm waiting I see on display several Sun Hydraulics. One has my exact set screw. Guy comes back and says he tried to find an old one he could steal one from but no luck. I show him the one on display and he says yeah but that one would cost $200 bucks! He wouldn't sell just the set screw. Can't blame him for that. He refers me to Copper State Nut & Bolt.

At Copper State. Show him the set screw and he heads into the back room. Comes back and says that he only has set screws about half a long as what I need. Ask if he has a bolt that would work. A quick check and I have one in my hand. No charge the guy says!

I get home and call Sun Hydraulics to see if I can get a set screw from them. Unfortunately they are in Florida and there is 3 hour difference and they are gone for the day. :(

So I test the new solenoid by putting 12v to it and I can hear and see it move. Yes! I install the solenoid back in the Hydraforce. I'm not wiring it up yet. I'm going to wait until I have the fan running then just run 12v to it to see if the fan slows. In theory it should.

Then I disconnect hose 9 in my hose flow diagram and install the tee for the gauge. Goes in without a problem.

I take the bolt I got from Copper State and use a punch to put an indent in the end then use a drill bit to deepen it a little. Didn't get it exactly in the center but close enough. Didn't get a picture after I drilled it but you get the idea. Use a stop nut, a metal washer, and a rubber washer to red neck engineer a replacement for the set screw. See pics. In the pics you can see the stop nut has a nylonish washer set into it similar to a lock nut. One of the hydraulics guys says it to keep any fluid that makes it up the threads in. I do plan to get a new one from Sun Hydraulics if I can but plan to use my red neck version to test with.

So tomorrow I plan to fill up with hydraulic fluid, zip tie all of the hydraulic lines back together, install the gauge and fire her up. Once I have her running I'll check the hydraulic fluid levels and fill if needed. Then I can start monkeying with the set screw on the Sun Hydraulic. Hopefully that will bring the fan speed up. If I'm able to change the fan speed and pressure using the Sun Hydraulic set screw I'll do a test drive and stop along the way checking fan speed and temps. I may also try pulling the fan drain trick that Alan suggests to see how much fluid is coming out. You can be sure I'll let everyone know the results.

Heard back from Billy Jack. Says Mike Grimes is out until Monday and will get back to me then.

Wish me luck!

see ya
ken

Still hope you can get the specs from James Triana.

He was able to give me max PSI at governed RPM.

Either that fact or fan RPM.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Sun unit allowed very quick adjustment from zero PSI to over 2000 PSI. 

Look forward to tomorrow's installment.

Brett

@Brett James did send me this document. It raises more questions than it answers. If I average the fan speed and psi it looks like 2000 for both is within specs. I plan to do like you and increase the pressure  just enough to control engine temperature.

see ya
ken

Ken,

I like the way you think. I hope it works, this could help a lot of members going down the road I would think.

Larry

Ken,

Once you determine which set up you have (original/modified and number of fans) looks like you can check either fan RPM or line PSI to get it right.  Probably safest is to adjust to just below the PSI rating at governed RPM. Make sure the hydraulic system filters are not old and restricted.

If you would post size of your bolt for you made I will look in my scrape parts for one. Looks like a Vickers relief screwed into a sun block. I have a lot of them. If you unscrew the valve that the set screw went into there will be numbers on the side. I may have the component. It seals with a BOSS o ring. 90 d not 70. Also use never seize on the shaft where the solenoid attaches saves lots of headache in the future. Let me know.
I would say you are going to make a very good red neck mechanic like me. End results it works and no leaks

Got the fluid back in, tighten all the fittings, and hooked up the pressure gauge. Screwed the relief in about halfway and started the engine. At 600rpm (idle) the gauge was only showing 100psi. Screwed the relief in few turns and no change. Finally screwed it all the way in till it bottomed and still only 100psi. Check fan speed and it's 348rpm. Have Dori run the throttle up to 2000rpm and gauge only goes to a little less then 1000psi and the fan speed settles in at 850rpm. :(

It looks like it's the Sun Hydraulics or probably more correctly the relief valve is bad?? Does anyone have any ideas on where else I should check pressure? Can I pull the Sun Hydraulics and take to a hydraulics shop and have it tested? I'm fishing for ideas if anyone has any. :)

Here is a pic of where I installed the pressure gauge.

@Alan sorry didn't see your post until after I had done all my work. I'm draining the fluid again now so will be able to pull the valve tomorrow. Will get you the number then. The set screw is a 3/8" fine thread. Hope that helps.

see ya
ken

Morning Ken,
 I have only read the last few post but can see you are deep in to your fan problem.
Just noticed you said you put T in line 9. Have you or did you earlier check pressure straight off the Hydraulic pump?
I just didn't see that.

Best of luck and once again thanks for posting.

Barry & Donna

@Barry No I haven't checked pressure at the pump. I have given thought to checking pressure at line 6 which is where both outputs from the pump come together and in theory I would have the highest pressure. My concern is that if the Sun Hydraulics is spilling fluid back into the reservoir that the pressure on 6 would be the same as 9. Also the pump was replaced about a year ago.

The main issues with checking pressures at different locations is that if I don't drain the system before pulling hoses I have a huge mess! :( Draining the system is a pain. There isn't a drain so I'm using a syphon hose to empty the reservoir. I've tried a drill pump but couldn't get it primed. I also tried a 1/2"id hose to syphon but it allowed air to travel back up the hose and stop the syphon so I'm using a 3/8" hose to syphon that is very very slow. I just start it into a 5 gallon bucket and then let it run overnight.

Putting oil back on is not much fun either. :( The reservoir is tucked into the drivers side corner behind the tail light and is impossible to tip a jug into. I use a funnel tied to my ladder with zip ties and an 8' 1/2" hose attached to reach over to the reservoir. This requires me to stand on a ladder tipping a 5 gal bucket into the funnel. I've been looking for a manual 5 gallon pump but all the ones on Amazon are expensive and have bad reviews. Arggg my life is so...hard! :) If anyone has a better method please chime in.

Unless someone comes up with a better idea I plan to pull the Sun Hydraulics and take it to a hydraulics shop where I hope they can bench test it. If it checks out OK I'll probably admit defeat and take the coach to the hydraulics shop and pay them to figure it out. :(

see ya
ken

 

Ken,
I think your right on track.  You could check the motor drain to see if there is significant flow but the lines are so much smaller I doubt they could account for such a drop in pressure.  I doubt you'll find any useful information by checking pressure at other points in the system.  And it's hard to believe the pump could be so bad to produce so little pressure.  Flow meters would be lovely but not very practical due to cost and work involved to install them.

If it were me I would play with the Sun unit.  I'm imaging the adjusting screw presses against a stiff spring that loads a plunger valve.  Since turning in the screw should produce more pressure (and you're getter too little now) I would guess the plunger is seized in the open position.  Tapping on it with a hammer and a transfer punch (passing through the middle of the spring) might free it up and you would see an increase in the pressure.  That would confirm that the Sun unit was the cause.  It just might free it up to work correctly or you might just want to try to find a new replacement at that point.  On the cautionary side it could close the valve completely but still be seized and you could exceed the design maximum pressure and blow something.  Testing at idle would minimize that possibility and having the gauge would tell you right away to shutdown.  As I said before I'm no expert in this so you need to procedure with what your are comfortable doing or not doing, but that's what I think I would try.

@Fitz Thanks for the feedback.

I got my tools out and went to work on the Sun Hydraulics. The body screws right into the bottom of the reservoir along with 2 other hoses. Not a lot of room in there... I disconnected the 2 hoses (6 & 9) from the tee into the SH. I was able to get the body of the SH to move but there wasn't enough room for it to spin around with the tee on it. Tried to get the tee off but couldn't get it to budge. Tried using a large box end wrench as an extension bar on the wrench and put all of my 200lb into it but no go... Hummm if I remove hose 7 then the elbow in the bottom of the reservoir I'd have just enough room to spin the SH off. I remove hose 7 and put a wrench on the elbow again with all my weight get nothing. I tried this several times with different wrenches and no go. I think I need to gain some weight. :)

I'm going to admit defeat on this one. That sucker's not coming off for me. Tomorrow I'll start calling hydraulic shops to see if any do in field work. I'm sure they do. As usual I'll keep everyone posted.

see ya
ken

Your last pic leads me to believe that it is block with a relief screwed in one end. Take box end wrench that fits the whole cartrage that is on the right side of your pic and use a large hammer to break it loose. It will come out just like the solenoid valve did. The o ring probably is melted and holding it. Be careful not to break it from the bottom of your tank. Age is a killer to break things loose. Heat and pb blaster helps.

@Alan Thanks. I like that idea. Dave Katsuki is here in the campground and volunteered to give me a hand. Between the two of us maybe we can come up with half a brain! I did try putting a wrench on the block and another on the nut but it's in an awkward position (the exhaust is in the way) and couldn't get much oomph in it. I'll try again with heat and PB Blaster. I am a little concerned about breaking the connection loose from the bottom of the reservoir. :( That would be bad!~

see ya
ken

Ken,

My setup is the same one that Bill C. and Pierce have with two fans, a hydroforce solenoid valve, and a 190 degree fan motor switch. I did not see a Sun Hydraulics valve on my system.  I don't have an extra dash switch to disable the 190 degree switch like Bill's, but on the wiring diagram B-2035 it shows the switch tied into the aux pump switch on the dash for the extra dash heat!  There is a 10A fuse in the dash fuse box marked Aux Pump/Hyd Fan.  Pulling this fuse will disable the Aux Pump and the fan switch will default to high speed at idle. If you have the Aux Pump it may show the same on your wiring diagram.  If it is the same make sure the fuse isn't blown and the Aux Pump switch lights up when on.   

I discovered all of this when looking at mine today and noticed the switch disconnected and the fans running at high speed all the time.  I haven't had any heating problems but now the system works as it should and the fans run slow at idle.  I also checked the fans at a higher idle (1200rpms) and they were running at high speed.  I haven't road tested but the engine never got above normal operating temp (175 degrees) at either idle speed.

With the engine off I checked the fan motors by turning the blades slowly to feel the pumps working.  There should be some resistance felt as the pump moves inside.  I also checked for leaking fan motor seals which were replaced in 07 when the hydraulic fan pump was replaced.  While underneath, I did notice a twisted hose at the bottom connection to the hydraulic pump which may be causing some restriction to oil flow.  The reservoir was also about a quart low of oil. 

I called Ray Thompson last friday at Ray Thompson Auto Service in Dothan, Al who replaced the hydraulic fan pump on mine back in 07.  He remembered my coach and told me he liked it so much he tried to buy it from the prior owner.  He also told me he owns a Tiffin now but has worked on motorhomes all his life.  I will ask him if he disconnected the fan switch and the reasoning for it.  I like having it on because it saves horsepower and fuel, and reduces wear and tear on the fan motor pumps. 

Don't feel bad, you've given it one helluva try.  Many of us have learned a lot through your experience and what others have posted here. 

If you pass this way I'll treat you to a fried shrimp po-boy and a Barq's root beer from Pirate's Cove! :dance:  Pirate's Cove - Whole Shrimp Po Boy and Bottle Barqs | Urbanspoon (http://www.urbanspoon.com/rph/159/951703/1643243/gulfport-pirate-s-cove-whole-shrimp-po-boy-and-bottle-barqs-photo)

Jerry aka Murph

@Jerry I don't have a dash switch to override the 190 degree fan motor switch either. I do have the Aux Fan switch and I just happen to figure out where that pump is while laying on my back under the coach entertaining myself with the hydraulics system. My solenoid was disconnected and so is the power to the hi/low switch. The power wire is just hanging there. Now that I know yours is hooked up to the Aux switch I probably power if there since I can use the fuse as a switch for the hi/low if I want to test/play with it! I tend to stay away from the cold so don't need the extra heat to the dash all that often. :)

I've been thinking about what Alan said about heating up the Sun Hydraulics block and pulling out the relief cartridge. This makes a lot of sense. With the SH block being made of aluminum it should expand more readily than the steel cartridge. In theory should allow me to get it off. That's my dream for today anyway. Once I have the cartridge I can just visit some of the friendly hydraulic shops here in town and in exchange for some cash money american walk out with a repaired/new one. Yeah! I had thought about using heat but was worried about ruining the o-rings but duh...  those are replaceable and if I get a new one I bet it comes with o-rings.

And I'd love to sit down with you over a fried shrimp lo-boy and a root beer! Won't be this year we will be in PNW but you never know maybe next year.

see ya
ken

Ken,

It might be easier to remove the reservoir tank before trying to remove the Sun Hydraulics valve.  The reservoir looks like like it is strapped in with metal straps and not welded in place.  If you can disconnect the hoses and remove the reservoir with the valve attached then you can be more careful and turn it upside down to soak the threads on the valve with a rust buster before trying to break it loose.

Can you feel the pump in the fan motor working when you turn it by hand?

Jerry aka Murph

Success! The Sun Hydraulics valve is off. Put some PB Buster on it, then some heat, then a wrench with another wrench as an extension, then some brute force and off it came.

I'm pretty sure the internal spring is broken. When I shake it back and forth I can hear it rattle. The part number is RPGC JAN. I've already found a couple on ebay rpgc jan in Business & Industrial | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2054897.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xrpgc+jan&_nkw=rpgc+jan&_sacat=12576&_from=R40) for less than $50. I'm checking with a shop here in town to see if they can get it for me. It will take a few days before I'll have one in my hands. Looks like I get a few days off! :)

Pics of course... The second pic shows the original set screw and my 2 red neck versions.

see ya
ken

Ken,

Congratualations,, You are the man.

Larry

Well.... the news is not good. I put in the new RPGC JAN and fired up the coach. Pressure at idle is the same. Right at 100psi maybe even a little less. Had Dori take the engine to 1500rpm and only about 800psi. Cranked the valve adjustment down while the engine was running but had no effect. Bummer. I had such high hopes.

I decide to try Alan's suggestion and pulled the fan drain hose pushed on another piece of hose and put the other end in a bucket. Had Dori fire up the coach and for a while didn't see anything but after about 10 seconds hydraulic fluid started pouring out. It wasn't a gusher but a pretty steady flow. :(

So my guess is that indeed it's the fan motor. I've already talked to Billy Jack and he says the motor is no longer available but they have a substitute. It does require an adaptor plate for the fan, the motor mount and the hub. Price is $1192 before Motorcade discount. Current plan is to call him early Monday and have him ship it out to me. I'm just glad the mothership is still supporting 22 year old coaches. If I had to have someone fabricate a custom solution it would be at least that much.

So if any of you have any other ideas speak up now so I can check em' out tomorrow before I call Billy Jack Monday.

Thanks everyone for the help. Especially Fitz, Alan, and Brett for their great ideas and the effort you guys put in to help a fellow ForeTraveler!

Of course I'll be posting pics of the install when the fan gets here.

see ya
ken

Forgot to mention that the RPGC JAN valve from Sun Hydraulics did need replacement anyway. There were 2 plastic rings next the the bottom o-ring that were broken, it rattled when I shook it (the new one doesn't), and the adjustment screw was buggered up all to hell. The new one came with a cover for the screw to prevent it from corroding. Must have been redesigned somewhere down the line.

see ya
ken

I thought I read on the Forum that fan hydraulic motors are rebuild-able, and/or there are gasket kits available.

That is a bummer Ken.  I guess you figure it's the motor because the pump was replaced exactly a year ago and you made it through all last summer with no issues.  I always think of hydraulic motors failing when they start leaking but maybe not.  On the pump thread last year you mentioned the hydraulic filter was missing.  Did you confirm this?  If so, I wonder if dirt caused the both your pump and now finally the motor to fail?  (with the majority of the damage to the motor occurring prior to having a filter installed)

Do you think there is any chance the Hydroforce is stuck open (even without the solenoid powered) and bypassing the 2nd half of the pump (i.e.. running in low speed)?
BTW, I don't blame you if you're tired of messing with this.  Easy for us armchair mechanics to make suggestions for you.

Hi Ken,
  Somewhere on this forum there is info for a man in West Virginia that rebuilds the hyd fan motors. I believe one of our members has used his service. I found the info.

Mr. Wayne Beckett
J & S Hydraulics, Inc
785 Airport Road
Sutton, WV 26601

Office: 304-765-7008
Cell: 304-619-4776
FAX:304-765-0109
Raymond

My understanding is that SOME hydraulic fan motors are rebuildable ... and others are not.  On our coach there are 2.  One (maybe $650) can be rebuilt with new seals.  The other (around $3000!!) cannot successfully be rehabbed. well ... it CAN ... but none of the shops will guarantee it nor will they test it after installing the new gaskets, according to the report I read.  Guess which one is leaking on our coach??

ouch I think that is odd they will not test them.

Well ... if they do not pass the pressure test, then the shop is out the rebuild fee!  Probably why they do not want to rebuild them in the first place.

I've spent the morning pulling the fan motor. Since I have the motor out I'm thinking I might as well take it to a couple of hydraulic shops here in Tucson to see if any are interested in rebuilding it. There are 2 reason I can think of for not rebuilding.

• Parts not available

• Case worn or damaged

[/list]

I talked with a guy here in the campground who suggested just putting a ball valve in place of the motor, run engine then gradually close the ball valve watching for pressure to build (simulating a load). If it builds the fan motor is the problem if not it's somewhere else. i.e.: the pump or maybe the solenoid. I found a document online from Toro that talks about a test kit that basically does the same thing.

Since I already have soooo much time invested in this I'll probably try putting in the ball valve in. It seems like a good way to test if the motor is the issue. While I'm out getting the ball valve and adaptors for the hoses I'll probably check to see if anyone will do a rebuild on the motor.

@JohnFitz In my thread from last year I was mistaken about how my hydraulic pump worked. I assumed that one port was for the fan motor and the other was for the power steering. In fact there is a separate pump on the top back of the engine that powers the power steering. Both ports on my "tandem" pump are used for the radiator fan. When I checked my reservoirs last year the power steering reservoir was missing the filter not the radiator reservoir. Sorry for the confusion. When I get some time I'll update the thread with the new information. Also I don't think the HydraForce solenoid is the issue. While I had it out I hooked it up to 12v and could see and hear the plunger retracting. That tells me that in the default state the HydraForce is closed so not involved. It is possible that fluid is leaking past the o-rings though. I think I would be a very small amount and would not drop the pressure so drastically but I've been wrong before. :)

@Raymond I'll probably call Wayne. Can't hurt to have another voice involved. I remember when Jon wrote about him. Sounded like a good guy. Might have something to new to add. Thanks for finding the contact info.

Stay tuned for the next episode tomorrow!

see ya
ken

Edited to add that I found a cheap hand pump that works! It's a Pennzoil Multi-Use pump that I got from Walmart for $8. Well worth the money. Just can't push it too hard. Slow and easy and it does a great job. Much better than the funnel and hose I was using. Added some pics.

The pump you bought is also sold at harbor freight and is what I was going to recommend for oil transfer.

Ken the ball valve is a good idea. When you do that make sure you cap the case drain line and put valve in place of the fan motor in and out lines. With your gauge tee on the inlet side of the valve. Slowly close the valve this will dead head the pump. I would back my relief most of the way out. It should build pressure instantly and hold steady then you can turn your relief in and watch pressure build. I would not go much over 2000 psi. If it does not build pressure you have other issues. Most motor have a common mount. You can also try sun source I can give you a inside person there. CSX does a lot of business with them. Let me know.

I talked to another guy here in the park who does construction (mostly burying light guide). He has a lot of experience with hydraulic on his equipment and he didn't like the idea of the ball valve simulating the pump load. His opinion was that it would be real easy to take it a little too far and close off the circuit and blow out a hydraulic line if not the pump. After that conversation decided just to take the motor around to see if it could be rebuilt.

Tried 2 hydraulics shops. Both said it's an gear pump with an aluminum housing. The gears eventually wear down the body and it would have to be replaced. Since it's a John Barnes motor they make mostly OEM motors to whatever spec the company wants. Makes it really hard to find parts since the are each pretty unique. They both called it a throw away. :( This is pretty much the same story I heard last year when I was trying to get my pump rebuilt.

Sooo I'm tired of messing with it! I've ordered the motor and adaptors from FOT. Should be here in a few days.

see ya
ken

Ken,

To satisfy curiosity, might dismantle the old pump and see what is worn. 

We have much the same problem on the sail boat with the raw water impeller wearing (with dirt in the water of course) on the cover plate. "Milling" the plate on a piece of glass with wet dry sandpaper often works to give added life.  Might give you a backup if that is all that is required.

Brett

Got bored waiting for my fan motor to show up today and disassembled the old motor. Put a magnate on it and yep the body is all aluminum. The gears are steel. The motor internals shows lots of signs of wear.

I think I've sort of figured out the motor drain. There is only one seal on the motor. It's on the shaft that the radiator fan is attached to. If too much pressure builds up in the pump the hydraulic fluid can find it's way up the drive shaft and head for the seal. The drain is there to give the fluid some place to go instead of building pressure against the seal.

Anyway here are the pics.

see ya
ken

Nice job Ken, it looks like the cylinder walls are scored. Is it possible there had been some debris in the oil system, or more likely the wearing out of the body allowing the gears more contact with the walls?

Larry

You need to flush out the whole system and get out all the metal and crap out and make sure the whole is clean including the motor or you will  be doing it all
over again
Peter

Ken, I second Oldguys opinion. You need to make sure your existing oil is clean. Your filters should pick up any debris but why take a chance.
 Nice job!

 Richard B

Actually, as long as the reservoir (where the filters are located) to pump hose is clean, you are good to go.  As stated, the filter will pick up any other debris.

Thanks guys but it would be extremely difficult for me to flush all hoses. I'm in a dirt with gravel cover site and every time I pull a hose I risk dropping it in the gravel and picking up more debris. It's tough working under the coach. There is not much room and there is lots of old grease and dirt just waiting to contaminate the hose ends.  I have drained all the fluid I can, and I'm installing new fluid and new filters. The existing filters and oil is only a year old. They where replaced when the pump failed last year. It seems likely that the damage was done back then and has taken until now for the symptoms to manifest. Also don't forget the fan motor is 22 years old with 185,000 miles on it.

The new pump arrived today. I mounted the motor on the adaptor plate. Then mounted the adaptor plate on the radiator mount and installed it in the coach. Started losing light and making stupid mistakes so quit for the day. Just need to finish up the radiator mount install, hookup the hydraulic hoses, install new filters, and fill with fluid tomorrow.

see ya
ken

Hurry Ken, I am holding my breath !!!

Sorry Bill. Take a breath...here's the update.

I finished the install of the fan motor today and filled with fluid. Used the Delo 400 from Costco right out of the box. I could snake the suction hose down the handle side and it held itself in place. Only left about a 1/4 cup of oil in the container. When I got to the last one I poured what was left of the other 2 into the last one.

Unfortunately my lovely DW was taken sick yesterday afternoon and only got worse overnight. Was in bed all day so didn't get to test the new fan motor. I did start the coach and let it idle. My pressure gauge showed the same as before between 100psi and 200psi. I check fan speed and it was at 415rpm at 600 engine rpm. That's only about 60 rpm more than I was getting before. Since the engine was cold I didn't want to stress it by doing a full throttle test. Will take for a test drive tomorrow (if DW is up for it), let it warm up and test at full throttle. If it doesn't meet specs I may just head for FOT and hand it over to those guys an say fix it!

I checked the filters and saw no sign of shrapnel but eyes aren't so good anymore. :) See pic.

see ya
ken

Kind of a bummer if it turns out to be the pump.  I have my fingers crossed for you.  Thanks for this awesome documentation of a problem I am sure to have down the road.  I should upload some pics of all the work I've done though most of it falls under the routine maintenance category.

Well Dori was still under the weather today so didn't do the test drive. She made a good recovery this afternoon so a test drive is in the works for tomorrow. The results will determine which direction I head on Monday. East or West? Maybe we should start a pool! :)

@piku Thanks for the well wishes. Right now I just want if fixed. Don't really care anymore the cost (within reason!). I'm not a religious man but I'm saying a little prayer that everything tests out on the test drive tomorrow! And by all means post your maintenance with pics it will help others and if nothing else it's a log of the work you've done. The posts I did last year have helped me immensely with this project. Plus we like to watch vicariously over your shoulder at the work you're doing while criticizing everything you do! :)) Hope we meet up somewhere down the road. If you see Big Agnes parked anywhere be sure and come over and knock on the door or use the door bell it works! :)

see ya
ken
 

Ken,
I hope the test ride provides the results you are looking for.  I know it can sometimes get very frustrating to run down a problem.  Good luck.

Took a deep breath just now !
will Hold it till the next post, do it quick Ken !!!!

Ken have you replaced and adjusted the Sun Hydraulic pressure controller?

@Brett I did replace the Sun Hydraulics "Relief Valve Cartridge" to keep the terminology correct. Part number RPGC-JAN. NEW SUN HYDRAULICS RPGC JAN CARTRIDGE HYDRAULIC VALVE D283291 (https://www.nriparts.com/hydraulic/hydraulic-valves/sun-hydraulics/rpgc-jan-cartridge-hydraulic-valve/) I'm not sure if it's the same as a "pressure controller" in the hydraulics world. I have tried adjusting it while the engine was idling and it had no effect on pressure or rpm.

Dori is feeling much better today so we plan to do a test drive to warm up the engine then do an rpm test at full throttle while watching the pressure. I'll try adjusting it when I'm checking the rpm. I'm shooting for 2000pm on the fan motor at full throttle.

You can be sure I'll be reporting back on my results. As you are probably aware I need all the help I can get and the voices here have gotten me this far! :)

see ya
ken

Ken,

Would be concerned if the Sun Hydraulic adjustment did not materially change PSI that there was another pressure relief bleeding off PSI.  One full turn on the Sun unit should raise PSI by several hundred PSI.

Just finished the test drive and found a spot to test rpm and pressure at full throttle. Unfortunately nothing has improved. Maximum was actually down from 1000psi to 800 to 900psi at full throttle. Fan rpm came in at 800-900rpm. Arggh!

OK so now I'm studying the flow diagram I drew up and the only other place I see to test is if I disconnect hoses 3 & 5 at the Hydraforce and slice them together then disconnect hoses 7 & 8 at the Hydraforce and splice them together I've eliminated the Hydraforce completely from the circuit. This really wouldn't be very difficult. I can get plugs for the tee's on the Hydraforce and straight thru connector for the hoses. Less than $20 bucks to try it. If it increases the pressure and rpm of the fan motor I at least know it's somewhere in that circuit causing the problem. If that doesn't fix it then I'm pretty much looking at the pump! Which I just replaced last year.

@Brett I agree with you it's strange that adjusting the Sun Hydraulic has no effect.

Anyone out there have any other ideas??

see ya
ken

E-mail James Triana your diagram and results with new pump and Sun Hydraulics unit. I have no experience with the Hydraforce unit.

Maybe it is time to change the Thermostats.
just a thought

Ken
I see wear like that on motors all of the time. Most likely when pump failed is when most damage occurred. Also age. You have drained the oil several times. Same as a flush. New filters fill and go. Make sure you set your pressure to much will hurt the shaft seal case drain really is for cylinder wall wear. You can remove the gauge fast and leave the tee with a cap. Wipe up top off with oil then drink a b__r and say I'm good.

Ken always remember in hydraulic world flow is speed or in your case fan rpm. Pressure is resistance that creates force. First off is your fan a sucker or a pusher. If the fan is not rotating the right way you will not have as much resistance. This can happen real easy because most motors are bidirectional by reversing the hose hookups. If motor is installed 180° off motor is now rotating wrong. Hence not as high of a pressure reading. In AZ you have no humidity so air moves easier. Less resistance. I really dought 2000 rpm for a big fan is right. How are you testing the rpm? Look on line how to tell what rotation a fan blade is and then check yours. If it a sucker cover the inlet with cardboard to restrict air flow then check pressure at highway rpm. It should really raise your pressure. Pm me and I will give you my cell number. 

@Brett I'll email James but he takes a while to respond.

@Bill I want to get the fan speed back to normal before I mess with thermostats.

@Alan Mine is a sucker. ( and so am I!) I was very careful to install the hoses so that the fan is turning so that air is sucked in through the radiator. I'm using a digital photo tachometer to measure the fan speed. I've sent you a pm.

see ya
ken

Today I plumbed around the Hydraforce (High/Low valve). I capped the hose connections for 3 & 5. I then used a union to connect hose 3 to hose 5. This completely removes the Hydraforce from the hydraulic circuit. Unfortunately when I started the engine at idle (600rpm) still only 400rpm for fan motor and only a little over 100psi hydraulic pressure. At full throttle (2100rpm) fan speed is only 800 to 900rpm.

Not sure what to test now. Looks like the only thing left is the hydraulic pump? I just replaced it a year ago. Maybe it was defective? I'm going to call around tomorrow to see if any of the hydraulics shops can bench test it for me. Really not looking forward to pulling it...:(

Let me know if any of you come up with anything. :)

Edit: added picks of the hydraulics flow diagram I did originally and the bypass around the Hydraforce.

Edit2: wanted to add that the Sun Hydraulics valve adjustment was cranked all the way down for the tests.

see ya
ken

Ken, have you resolved your radiator hydraulic issue? What be happening?

Roland

@Roland Sorry for the lack of communication. Dori had some health issues we needed to take care of and that's been my focus for the last week. She was having some serious abdominal muscles spasms that she equated with labor pains. They where lasting upwards of 45 minutes. She's been to the doctor and it's been diagnosed as a weird form of acid reflux. She's on Prilosec and doing much better.

I've thrown in the towel and we left early this morning heading for Nacogdouches. Progress has been slow. Trying to keep the temps from going up too much. Was ok this morning but now that ambient temps are going up so is Big Agnes's temp. :( We made about 170 miles today and plan on about 20 more to get to the next rest stop. We will lay low there go to bed early and leave about 2 or 3 am. Hopefully we can get a few more miles in tomorrow. Hey we only have 936 miles to go! Probably take us 3 or 4 days to get there. Wish us luck.

see ya
ken

Good luck and drive safe.

Hope the Prilosec helps Dori, not fun being sick when you supposed to  be havin' fun. I have a friend that has a 93 280 with a detroit, blew the engine because of overheating. Cost of repair 29 coach bucks. That is why the interest.

Roland

Ken
Good luck with the drive to Nac.  Keep us posted.

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm driving with one eye on the temp gauge and one on the road. There were times today I was doing 30mph down I10. :( It was embarrassing being passed by ratty looking beat up Winnebagos... I just stay in the right lane with the hazard flashers on. Hope I'm not doing too much damage to Foretravels reputation!

see ya
ken

I had a friend of mine with a fan problem on a unihome with the Detroit 6v92 that caused it to heat up. He hung a 20 inch box fan on the side grill to move the air and was able to drive it that way. Might be worth a try.

Probably no more than the Foretravel in the latest Escapees mag going up in flames.
Good luck with the hydraulics,
Dori, get well soon,

Only takes a couple minutes with an electric screwdriver to remove the outside grill. A couple of big 12V fans might do the trick to get it to the shop. See at: Zirgo 16" 3000 CFM Radiator Fan Street Rod 12V ZFB16S | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZIRGO-16-3000-CFM-Radiator-Fan-street-rod-12v-ZFB16S-/270747315915?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f09cc2ecb&vxp=mtr)  They are available at auto parts houses in most any town. Plastic push through mounting hardware make installation fast. Even if you had to pay $100 each, it's cheap compared to the damage possibility.

Running the generator with a couple of box fans like above post would also be a good idea.

I also have kept the dash heater on high in several vehicle to drop the temp a bit.

Pierce

We made it to Mason, TX earlier today. Found a nice city campground with big pecan trees and green grass. Haven't seen green grass since last year! $20 with 50amp, sewer and pretty darn good internet.

Spent the last 3 nights in rest areas along I10. It worked out well since we could leave the car attached and just fire up and go in the middle of the $%^&* night without disturbing other campers. We've been leaving a 4:00am to miss the heat of the day. Usually don't have a problem with engine temps until the ambient temps hit 70˚ or until we hit hills. Little known fact: apparently all roads in TX are uphill! At least so far they have been. :(

Have a 350 mile drive into Nac tomorrow. Plan to leave at 3am. Luckily only a couple of other campers here and none near us.

Will post more info after I talk to FOT.

see ya
ken

Made it! Got in right before noon with a 3am start. Long day already. Haven't talked to a service rep yet. Need to take Dori out for lunch at Cold Springs. She deserves it putting up with me the last 4 days. She doesn't like to get up early and I've been rousting her out of bed at 2:30am everyday!

Will post when I have more...

see ya
ken

Glad you got there safely, now what else can go wrong ?
Gary B

Ken, looking forward to your post on the fix.
  Would be nice if it was something simple.

 Richard B

It seems we hit Nac at exactly the right time. When I called for an appointment they said it would be June 23 before I could get in. Asked about show up and wait was told 7 ahead me at the moment. When we pulled into the parking lot this morning it was almost empty. I figure everything is in the shop and indeed every bay was full and coaches parked outside.

Go in talk to Josh. Lay out my issues and ask when we might be able to get in. He says if I had been there last week he had 12 coaches in line but they did a lot of working early and late to get the backlog down. Now there are only 4 coaches ahead of me and they are drop offs so since I'm staying with the coach I go to the head of the line. :))

Well Dori finds Dave Flanagan starts placing her order and the next thing I know Dave is in the office with Josh adding all the things Dori wants to the work order and says he can do it tomorrow pull over to the last bay at 7:30. Yikes! Josh says ok you're in.

Drive over to paint and talk to Biscuit about a small (3 foot x 3 inch) scratch I got after I tried to remove my big awning with a telephone pole in Washington. He says bring it over Wednesday he'll work it in!

So looks like it will be Thursday before I'll know anything about the hydraulics. Maybe my brain will have started working again by then. The last 4 days have been a blinding blur but looks like I'm in good hands now. The bad news is I may have to sell a kidney to pay for it all.

see ya
ken

Glad you made it OK. Hope you can get some rest now that you are there.

Mark

Ken, I bet you guys do feel 'wrung out'! What a trip! Rockey and I are glad you made it there ok and that you are not having to wait much. Rockey is curious about what Dori added. :D
Sure hope you radiator problems are minor.

Steve doesn't let me talk to David Flanagan unsupervised anymore ;)

Like Rockey, I'm anxious to hear what Dori has planned.

Very glad you made it safely.  Hopefully the hydraulic issue is something well under a coach buck.

BTW - David likes the chocolate filled donuts from Shipleys ;)

@Gary I'm a firm believer that things only get better after they get much, much worse!

@Richard I have mixed feeling on it being an easy fix. On one hand it would be great if they look at it and just say "Oh here just twist this!" and it works on the other if it's something I could have fixed with a $10 part or something in Tucson I may shed a tear or 2.

On the bright side beerslayer24 was here when we arrived. He came over and said he had been following my story and was glad I made it in safe. Talked for a while then I set up camp. Later he came back with a bottle of homemade wine for me to drown my sorrows in! Haven't tried it yet but full review to follow. :)) Foretravelers are the best people!

see ya
ken

@Rockey @Michelle A couple of months ago I pulled the "Small Wonder" vac out leaving Dori with a gigantic storage area under the fridge. She promptly filled the entire area with staples. Only problem is that whenever she wants something invariably it's in the very back. Since we were planing to head up the west coast I thought I was safe and suggested that next time we are in Nac we can have Dave put in a heavy duty drawer. :'( She's also getting a small piece of trim to cover the gap over the new TV in the bedroom. The swivels on both of our Flexsteel chairs broke within a day of each other and my fix using bolts to turn them into no-Flex chairs broke about a week later so Dave is replacing the swivels. Oh and the plastic screen door latch finally gave up the ghost so Dave to the rescue for that too.

see ya
ken

 

 Ken and Dori, when you make it to west coast please come and visit. We have room and you will enjoy the wine region here and you can park over the pit so we can fix anything that needs it. There is a Guest house if you want a break from coach. We are 45 mins north of the Border at Oroville Washington.
JohnH

@John We would love that! All our plans are up in air at the moment. So don't know if it can be this year.

We love the PNW. Dori was born in Port Angeles and raised in Seattle. She gets all happy when it rains. Still don't understand that one...

That pit would have been great for working on my hydraulics. Had to use my "portable pit". Me on my back on a blue tarp with a moving blanket for a pad. Yours sounds much better. :)

If we get close we will give a shout.

see ya
ken

 Rain, RAIN !!! we do not have that item here, we are in the Desert (tip of Sonoran). 5hrs NE of Seattle. Just took these pic now at 7.45am.
JohnH

John,

Back off on the invites!!! We asked Ken and Dori FIRST!!! :D Actually, Dori's sister lives 20 minutes away from us so wishing them a rapid fix on the fan problem so they can watch the scenery, not the temp gauge. Has really got me thinking about the possibility of getting stranded out in the middle of nowhere. Think I will measure the outside face of the radiator and see what combination of electric fans I can mount there. Probably for emergency use but will be interesting to pull the belt off and see what the limitations as far as grades and outside temp will be.

Have widened the turn at the top so a 40 footer can probably get up without having to make several passes. Four speeds will still have to back up the whole way. Have gotten the ProLink 9000 working nicely for Detroits, now just need the cartridge for CATs and Cummins. Not sure if I should push the select button for the 525HP option. ;D

Pierce

Dave,

Actually, just learning what the 9000 can do as it didn't come with a user manual and Nexiq does not have any for this model any longer. Think I have about 75% of the possibilities down but trying to go carefully. Most intriguing is the duration and injector response. It can manually cut each injector and the ECU will compensate by adding more fuel to the remaining injectors or can set it to do it automatically in order. The reader will then figure the percentage of fuel increase and tell you which injector is not working correctly. What is nice is it reads the engine model, serial number, HP, Torque, ECU model, serial number and any firmware updates plus other stuff I haven't written down yet. It does have a lot of user configurable settings but when I go by these possibilities, I make sure not to change them.........yet. ;)

Yes, would need a larger turbo for more HP. Boats use a pair of smaller turbos with the high horsepower 6V-92TAs but mostly to get more boost down low RPM as to get the boat up on plane quickly. Understand that the high HP Detroits used about 3 sets of turbos between engine overhauls. Probably lots of boost at low RPM meant overspeed on the turbo at high RPM. Did meet a fellow in Puerto Penasco with a twin turbo 500 plus HP CAT in his 36 foot Holiday Rambler. Said it was an optional engine. Only one slide so guess it was pretty quick.

I did a lot of turbo sizing with compressor maps but after hours of calculation, I never came up with the same turbo the German guy did at the shop so we always used what he said would work best.

Pierce

Ken, best wishes for a successful resolution. Based on everything I've read on your current (mis)adventure with the fans, I'm guessing it's a bad pump. Even relatively new stuff can fail. :(

If his cat was a 3208 twin turbo they were rated at 375 hp.  Ran across a Texas 85' ftx ored owner that had bolted the setup onto his 250hp cat.  Had 100k miles on it since the change.

He mentioned the trans limitation and only used it hard locked up in fourth gear on the 643 Allison.  No issues.

No, it was a CAT Asert C15 twin turbo engine. Looks like 500 to 625 HP stock depending on the turbo and configuration. Think he said his was 550 or 625 HP. Heard they had a lot of turbo problems (twin turbo models) but not researched in detail. Nice looking engine though. See at: c15 cat twin turbo engine - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=c15+cat+twin+turbo+engine&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS504US504&es_sm=119&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=TDtqU6mEEqjH8AHmhICYBA&ved=0CHAQsAQ&biw=1358&bih=647)

He was a pretty well to do guy and said his only faster motorhome was an Eagle with a 8V-92 turbo. When he ordered the optional engine, he asked for the biggest engine they could put in the coach. Now that I'm thinking about it, it may have been a Country Coach and not a HR. All the SOBs look almost the same.

Pierce

Cat has not enjoyed a happy history with the C15 twin turbo arrangement, not as good as the 3412 and that was not a great set up for highway either.
While Cat has had many great engines dor the dirt digger world, fewer great engines for the highway.
The D343 or 1693TA is very capable of unbeiveable hp, way above the printed spec limits, not fuel efficent, light nor low cost, just a great get it done sweetie.
Dave M

Glad you guys are safe in Nac.  Our week in Capitol Reef in the Fruita Campground was quite nice.  No phone or internet or servicew but we made it and am back following your woes.  Hope all goes well....

Thanks Scott! Josh wasn't sure if we would get into service today but we are hopeful. I'm dying to get my hydraulics resolved!

Glad you survived dry camping. Bet you learned a lot! Our plans are in flux at the moment so not sure if we will make it to the PNW this year. If we do we'll look you up.

see ya
ken

Great - have a great day.  ;D

Got into service a little after 10:00am today. Alton and Mark Harvey both worked on my hydraulics for the rest of the day. They actually came to the same conclusion I did. It's the hydraulic pump. We don't really know that for sure yet but they plan to replace it in the morning. Then we'll know for sure.

Stay tuned!

see ya
ken

Glad they got you in so quickly - Staying Tuned.  ^.^d

I only know if a pump is bad by putting a flow meter on the outlet of the pump and run engine to rpm and if it produces Spec flow then it is good if not bad. A pump also has to produce pressure to move what ever device your case a motor. I consider parts changing until it works is very expensive. Flow meter is a fraction of the cost of a pump. I hope that really is the problem. Good luck.

Before they replaced the pump this morning Mark had the engineer from the factory come over and review the work Alton and Mark did yesterday. He concurred with their findings and FOT replaced my hydraulics pump this morning. Fan speed doubled right away. They tweaked the pressure relief setting and got it up to 1900rpm. When the pressure came up they found one of the hydraulic hoses was leaking out the back of the fitting. They sent it out to a hydraulics shop to make a new one. By they time they got it back we didn't have time to do a test drive. We'll do a test drive tomorrow if the weather is accommodating.

I'm pretty confident my overheating problems are behind me but won't know for sure until we do a test drive. Yahoo! :))

Dori and I are both pretty worn out. It's been a rough week. At least we get to sleep in tomorrow! Yay!

see ya
ken

We are so glad to hear that you have (probably) gotten this thing licked.  Have a great nights sleep.  I always sleep better when I am not worried about our Ol' Girl. If fixed - what direction will you go?  ;D

Keeping fingers crossed that it's behind you now.

Pierce

Great news Ken and Dori. Sounds like they got the problem taken care of. Safe travels to you both.

Mark and Tanya

I would say you are out of the woods. Old hoses leak under new real pressure. Might consider to replace all  the high pressure hoses some time soon. Maybe one at a time. They are old like me and might leak under pressure also. LOL !  Just a thought. I would hate to hear you are down on the road side.  Happy traveling and camping..
Alan

Did our test drive yesterday. Drove out 21 to Alto down 69 to Pollok then 7 back into Nac. Right at 60 miles. The engine heated up right away on the first hill to 200˚ then the thermostats opened and the temps come right back down to 180˚. The drive was pretty hilly with lots of undulations. I torture tested the engine by lugging it up the hills in a high gear with full throttle. I had to work it to get the temp up to 195˚. As soon as I hit the other side of the hill the temps came right back down.

Before I left I used one of the spare wires from the engine to the dash to hook into the high-low switch. Attached it to the same point the solenoid is attached to and at the dash installed a led light. Since the solenoid is normally off the solenoid needs 12v for the fan to stay in low speed mode. This means the light on the dash stays on unless the switch goes into high speed mode in which case the light will go out. On my test drive the only time the fan went into high speed mode was when I first started right before the thermostats kicked in. I don't know what temp the high-low switch is set to cut in but the one time it did switch to high the gauge was showing 200˚. Alton thought it would switch in at 190˚.

I'm not sure how accurate my temp gauge is. On the drive out from Tucson it was fluctuating wildly at times. (Which only added to my stress level at the time!) I opened the dash to check the ground and when I touched the wire the needle on the gauge maxed out. Found that when I push the wire to the drivers side it would max out and sometimes bounce around. When I pushed to the passenger side it settled down and was steady. Did some redneck engineering and wedged a wadded piece of napkin between the pins and at least it reads steady now. :) Will probably replace soon.

Did the test drive with full fresh water, close to full fuel, 1/4 tank lp and tow car attached. At the end of the drive the ambient temps were in the high 80s and the temp gauge was staying steady at 185˚. Since the Detroits like to run a "little" hot I'll take it! Plus the extra 5˚ may be my gauge...

Alton did say they took the pressure up to 3500psi to get the fan speed they wanted. (1900rpm on  high) That seems pretty high to me. Will be asking Mark/Alton about that tomorrow. Since it looks like the engine will be in low speed mode most of the time that may not be an issue. I do have the option of playing with the pressures with the relief cartridge now that it's working. I do need to make some psi & rpm measurements at different engine rpms in low speed mode then again in high speed mode so I have reference values. Appreciate any thoughts you guys may have.

Also thought I'd mention that I do have a couple of small leaks. Looks like they may have overfilled the reservoir. Oil coming down the outside of it after the drive. Also found a pool of fresh oil on top of the hydraulic pump mounting bracket. Not sure how oil could get there but it did. Will have the shop look at it. Just shows that when you have major work done always take a test drive and don't plan on leaving the minute the work is done.

EDIT: Forgot to add pic of high/low alert light.

see ya
ken

Looking good Ken!!! Unless on a long grade in hot summer weather, our gauge sticks right at 187 degrees. Time for you guys to kick back for a while now.

Pierce

Great news Ken.

Roland

Yea!!!!!

Ken, if it is leaking from the top of the reservoir, verify that they put the clamp on properly. First time we had our coach serviced, someone put the clamp on with "big end" to "big end" and "little end" to "little end." The clamps halves are supposed to go on with "big end" to "little end" so they nest properly and snug up the gasket.

Ken,

What an ordeal.  I hope the worst of this situation is now behind you.  Sooner or later all of us will be in the same boat with a breakdown situation and will have to limp in for repairs.  At least your in NAC and can hang around for a while for some R&R and can test your repair work before moving on.  Was the year old pump a new one or rebuilt?  Was there any warranty on it or can it be rebuilt for a spare?  To go out that soon it must have worked it's guts out with all the restrictions to the oil flow. 

Jerry aka Murph

Ken,

That's wonderful news!  Guess it had to be the pump,  since you had replaced everything else, but funny that it went out so soon after you replaced it (a year ago?)

Still haven't hooked up the pressure gauge on our pump to see what our pressure is, but the fan thermostat bypass control I put in really does help with retarder temperature on long downhills (writeup coming soon...)

Yeah there should be no reason for a pump to fail in less than a year and a half. My opinion is that the pump was defective from the start. Since symptoms didn't show unless the ambient temps rose above 70˚ and I rarely hit those temps it took a little more than a year for me to find out I had a problem. Then another 6 months of messing around with it before I got it to Nac. On the one hand I think Foretravel has some skin in the game but on the other I've been using the pump for 1.5 years... :(

When I get my bill I if they haven't given me some kind of break I plan to tell my story. I'm pretty sure they will work with me to reach a compromise. They always have in the past.

I am really happy to have a coach that works again and I can start driving by speedometer instead of temp gauge! :)

see ya
ken

@Jerry Yes it was a new pump not a rebuild. Don't plan to rebuild the old pump. We full time so don't want to carry it. Don't know if there is a warranty on the pump. I doubt a warranty would be longer than a year and I'm about 6 months past that.

From what I've learned about gear pumps it's pretty rare for one to just fail. They usually wear out or blow the seals. They are really simple pieces of equipment. Two shafts and 4 gears on this one in an oil bath doesn't seem like there is a whole lot to go wrong. :) That's why I think it was defective from the beginning but have no real proof.

see ya
ken

@Dave Glad the by-pass control is working for you. I had a blast with you driving to every hydraulics shop in Tucson sourcing parts for it. I feel I have some skin in that game (even if I was just the driver) so will share some of your victory. :)

see ya
kne

Very interested in this idea!