Hello!
After lurking on this forum for some time, I thought I would jump in and ask a few questions. I am considering buying a Foretravel & this looks like the place to learn more.
My wife & I have had RVs for quite some time. We decided on "bus" type after seeing regular recreational vehicles were not robust enough to meet our needs. We currently have a 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge PT40 (40', 3 axels, Silver 6V92 turned up to 365 HP, Allison auto) that we are fairly happy with. Before that we had a 1973 MCI MC7 conversion that we full-timed in for over 2 years. We loved that coach. Unfortunately, I have a bum knee that made it progressively harder to drive it over 6 or 7 hours at a time. The 'Bird's driver's seat sets like a living room chair and is quite comfortable.
We use the coach regularly, primarily for ministry trips and visiting family. We are almost always boon-docking. We need enough resources to carry a fair amount of clothes (gotta look sharp! ;D ) and shower, eat, and pretty much live without any facilities. Again, the Wanderlodge meets these requirements.
Here are the problems. First, Bluebirds are heavy; mine weighs in at almost 48,000 lbs, fully loaded and ready to go. I have to be very careful where I drive. Unfortunately, I've made quite a few IMPRESSIONS in church parking lots...... and not the good kind! :-[ Next, there is the cost of operation. Since I am based in Delaware, there are tolls in every direction. The tag axle adds $5 to $100 every trip, depending on where we go. I average about 5 MPG when I include the generator usage. Something that would get 7-9 MPG would be a big help. Then, maintenance. If you think 11R22.5s are expensive, take a look at 12R24.5s! & I have 8 of them!
I am a pretty good mechanic. There is very little on the PT I can't take apart and fix except for the Allison. I farm out anything it needs except maintenance. I have a good shop that I can put the bus and a few cars in and still have room to work.
I THINK I would like a late 80s model Unicoach, at least 38', with a 6V92 since I am very familiar with that engine. Those years are a good compromise between convenience and not too much computer controlled stuff. I have read about the bulkhead problems & that doesn't look to be much of an issue for me to fix. I have read the posts on what to check when you buy a coach. Most of that would not be a problem. However, just because I CAN fix it, doesn't mean I WANT to fix it. I know buying a coach is always a compromise between price and condition.
Can I realistically boon-dock long term in an 80s/early90s Foretravel?
What is the real world fuel mileage? What are the opinions on the Cat engine?
I sometimes pull a 26', 9000# enclosed trailer. Will I have a problem pulling it, or with tongue weight?
What other problems/models to avoid? I saw a post about side mount vs rear mount radiator. My PT has a side mount with a hydraulic fan. It broke and when through the radiator up in Alaska. Do Foretravels have the same problems?
How about access to the engine. My PT hood opens up the entire back & has a side door as well. How to you get to the engine in a Foretravel. It doesn't look like it has a rear hood.
I am up for advice, opinions, corrections, and comments. As I have already made my quota of dumb mistakes for my lifetime, I try to get all the info I can before making dumb mistakes now. ;D
Thanks in advance for help!
Sorry for the long post
TOM
I have a couple aspects I can address: The GVWR of my 1990 U280 was 28,000 lbs. That included about 7,000 lbs of payload...fuel, water, clothes and people. However, the GCVWR was only 30,000. Thus to tow a 4000 lb car, my capacity was reduced to 26,000 lbs, a 5,000 lb payload. I was quite surprised to see only 2,000 lbs. There is no way that you could tow a 9,000 lb trailer and stay under the 30,000 GCVWR.
Now my 2002 U270 has an entirely different picture. The coach is rated at 33,000 GVWR with a GCVWR of 43,000 lbs. The 33,000 gives me 3,890 of carrying capacity...and plenty of towing ability. While your mileage will of course vary depending on your driving habits, the 400 HP ISL won't give you all the power of a 450 HP motor, but it definitely is more economical by comparison from what I have learned...and would still provide you power to tow.
I think you will need to set your sights a little newer if you want to tow 9,000 lbs and remain within the manufacturer's specifications. You likely have found Barry's excellent resource on the different capacities of the models in between, but these two are what I was familiar with. Search "Barry Foretravel" and you'll find him if you haven't as of yet.
Welcome, Tom! We've talked a couple of times when we were researching. Yes, a Foretravel would be a great change over the 'Bird. Notice I didn't say improvement, because 'Birds are pretty impressive machines. A Foretravel is somewhat less complicated. Might I suggest that a '93 or '94 U300 might be just the ticket for you. Take a look at Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:specs) and you will see that different models use different engines. The U300 uses the 6V92, which you say you want. In this vintage, if you add two zeroes to the model number you will get the gross weight, so a U300 has a GW of 30,000 pounds. No slides, but the wide body. The U300 can tow up to 6,000 pounds, so you may have to put your trailer on a diet.
Tom ---- This is just one of those "homework req'd" kind of things. We have a 91 36ft GV that weighs in at around 26,500 lbs., has a Cat diesel that will run all day at 65mph towing a 4000lb car and gets 9.5 mpg doing it. It does not have a slide out and for us that is a good thing. For just the two of us, this meets most of our desires and is affordable. For full timing, you may want a little more space. I would go with the side radiator if you go to an early 90s model. My homework led me to our 91GV and I'd do the same thing again ---- Great machine!! For boondocking, it has a propane gen set, 80gallons of fresh water, 60 gals of gray and 60 gallons of black water. It has a 1500 watt inverter that does well in the coffee making dep't. I dont think you could go wrong with an early 90's FT. Have fun shopping and doing your homework. ---- Fritz
Welcome to the forum.
Your tankage might be greater now. Here is a link to Foretravel specs, tanks and weights.
Foretravel Axle Weights (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:weights)
We scale 28,300#, loaded to travel, full diesel, water, propane, way under the 36,000# rating.
Also 98 was the last year of the 5000# trailer hitches, and 99 started the 10,000# hitch ratings.
Here is a link to floorplans and equipment:
Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:specs)
Take a look at the Motorhomes of Texas site and go to any of their coaches, and click on the enlarged photos. They show some great photos with the bays open, and show the engine access as well. Most feel the huge rear access is more than enough to do maintance. I am much happier with my side radiator now than the rear on my Grand Villa.
You are going to get lots of advice and help, your search.
Many thanks for the warm welcome and the help and comments!
That "Barry Foretravel" search opens up a whole 'nother world! :o :o It's gonna take me a while to digest that much information.
Thanks for the real world MPG info.
Guess I will rethink my trailer.....
I think the next thing I need to do is actually find a few coaches to look at. I saw on for sale in Clinton, MD., which is within driving distance. It's more than I want to spend but I may ask the guy if I can look at it.
I'll keep doing my homework & see how things sort out.
Thanks Again!
TOM
Welcome. I would look a bit newer so you can tow your trailer as it is. I am outside of DC and understand about tolls too but the tag gives loads of carrying capacity and directional stability too. I will be in MD this summer and there is a Motorcade rally in early June in Lancaster PA too. Should have 15 plus coaches to see there.
Hi John,
Thanks for the rally info. I may try to make that since the wife would like a trip to Lancaster anyway.
The trailer deal is only 2 or 3 times a year and it probably could go on a diet anyway. A 26' trailer & a 40" coach is a bit much in some places anyhow. But, it's nice to have your whole life with you & not have to think "Did I bring that?" ;D
If I get a Foretravel with a tag, I am losing one of the reasons for trading. If I go to a newer model, it's more money; again another reason I want to downsize. Everything is a tradeoff........ :-\
TOM
TOM,
Watch the overall length in your research. Trailers are usually spec'd by their box size. OAL would add another 4' or 5' for the tongue pushing past the 65' OAL limit in most states.
Thanks Brett. I am close now with the 40' Wanderlodge. So far, I haven't gotten into any trouble but that's subject to change....... I try to maintain a low profile! ;D
TOM
I would look at the late 90s no slide 40 foot and no tag and two storage bays. I had a 36 foot and loved it too but as a full timer you might want 40 foot. I see MOT has a 96 40 footer for 49k now.
1996 Foretravel U320 40' Priced at $ 49500 (http://motorhomesoftexas.com/coachrv/foretravel/1996--u320--40--C1675)
Thanks for the link, John.
We have put our trade plans on hold for now. A few other things have popped up that take priory. I'm still reading the forum though & looking when I have time.
TOM
Our 36 foot U300 with a 6V-92TA gets between 5 and 12 mpg. Steady 65 on fairly flat country will get about the same as the CAT or 9 to 10 mpg. We can get up to 12 mpg on flat ground at 50 to 55 mph. We met another U300 of the same year in Yellowstone and the owner had documented his mileage over the five years of ownership with an average of 7.9 mpg. Along Highway 1 in California or in Yellowstone, the mileage really takes a hit down to below 6 mpg with toad with 5.5 being the absolute worst.
Would only consider a side radiator model. If you get the right floor plan, the roof will allow 4 very large solar panels @280 watts/ea for a total of a 1140 watt potential. I only start the generator on hot summer days for AC.
Have yet to find a big rig or bus faster on the hills. I do have to watch temp during hot summer days on long grades to keep from going over 210 degrees.
Jake brake works really excellent. Never worry about heating the service brakes even on the steepest descents.
$20K ballpark should get you a nice low mileage 1993 U300. More if stored indoors and decals, paint are really good. Would not buy a northern based Foretravel (or any other brand) unless you REALLY inspect for underbelly corrosion.
Have had a more than 40 year love affair with Detroit 2 cycles. 3.5 million other owners can't be too unhappy.
Pierce
Thanks Pierce!
That is good real world info!
20K is more along the lines of what I was thinking about. I can't really justify spending more than that to "save money".
An average of 7 MPG and no tag, smaller tires and genny would justify trading, I think but losing 4' would be a bummer, and I still need to put my trailer on a DIET! :o :o
Thanks!
TOM
Pierce, I'm going to read your mileage information to my coach. I drive 55-60 and get about 7-7.5 mpg.
Tom, my coach is also a 93 U300, but mine is 40' long. There are several of us with 93 U300's on this forum, and we all like what we have. Get one and join the club.
David,
Check exhaust for leaking exhaust manifold gaskets, cracks or even missing pieces. Boost pressure will suffer otherwise. With the poor air cleaner intake placement, I would check the telltale for restrictions, pull and look at the cleaner. How about front tire wear? Out of alignment can also hurt mileage. Are your tires new? New tires use quite a bit more fuel tapering off until they have 10K miles. Deep tread also uses more fuel than worn tires. Weight is important even on the flat. We are usually pretty light with partial fuel for local trips and propane, low water and only clothing in interior compartments. We eat out a lot so don't carry much as far as canned goods, supplies go. Spare tire is the only addition. Toad is just under 3K and does cut perhaps a half mpg off above figures. On the other hand, returning from Quartzsite and Mexico, I couldn't help but picking on other RVs and trucks on the grades plus in and out of Death Valley really cut the mileage. Was feeling rich after a few new teeth and root canals plus front seats in Puerto Penasco so 65 to 70 was justified. :D :D :D That really dropped the mileage.
We live in the Sierras so either full throttle or Jake most all the time. Driving to mountain campgrounds sees 5.5 to 7 mpg and can watch the fuel gauge move and is the reason we keep it light. On the other hand, driving to San Francisco w/o toad at 55-60, the gauge is still just about full when we arrive.
Check with Bill Chaplin. He does a nice Excel spreadsheet with fuel used, mileage, terrain, speed. Think his 40 footer gets about the same mileage as ours.
Pierce
Pierce,
Do you know what a good boost pressure is?
I have seen as high as 21 psi on mine via a VMS II. This is while the engine is pulling hard at close to 2100 rpm. My engine is only 300 hp too and I do have a very small crack on one of the exhaust manifolds which will need replacement soon.
I can't comment on mileage as the trip function doesn't record miles; appears to need a PROM update: DDEC II and SilverLeaf Information | SilverLeaf Electronics, Inc. (http://www.silverleafelectronics.com/node/4165)
John,
Ours is a 350 hp model but boost pressure should be close. We have been gone for a month and the ProLink reader just arrived and opened the box last night and tried it this morning so only have been able to get basic readings with the engine a idle. Will let you know as soon as we hit the road what the boost pressure is. The manifold problem is not just isolated to Cummins engines but seems to effect a lot of our Detroit engines too. The big turbo sitting on top probably does not help. Good to bring it up for others to check theirs before many bring theirs out of mothballs for summer trips.
A decent welding shop can repair a crack without the need for a new manifold. Can be as good or better than new. Best advise to owners is to cool the engine at a fast idle until the turbo and exhaust temperatures normalize before shutting down. Really extends turbo life as the hot oil will refine into coke and shorten the life. Turbo seals damaged this way may leak oil into the intake and result in high exhaust temps that could also result in a valve failure (or piston) like posted from El Paso.
Pierce
Pierce
OK, now you guys are scaring me!! :o :o :D :D
I can put my trailer on a diet, but not the RV. We frequently travel to ministry sites that have NO supporting facilities & stay for 7 to 14 days. Gotta have clothes! We don't do nudist camps!! :o :o Gotta have water! Gotta smell good! or, we could cut back on the water & bring 50 gallons of French perfume!! :o :o Gotta have food! Like to eat every couple of days, anyway! Gotta have fuel! I want to run the genny & still get home without paying $10/gal for diesel.
I guess it still comes down to weight X comfort = $$$$$
TOM
PS: I'm still looking though!
Tom, our plan is to travel with full fresh water and empty waste water tanks. I usually fill the fuel tank just before arriving at the campground. If we're at a campsite with full hookups we can shower as often as we wish. If not, we can go a couple of days between showers if we're careful about what we're doing. A "spit bath" can work just fine between showers. Disposable eating stuff (no washing dishes) can also help.
When our church had an addition put on 15 years ago or so we had Laborers for Christ doing most of the work. They brought their rigs onto the church property, added some temporary hookups, and were there for a month or so. We had to get all of the permissions from the city first, but that was no big deal. I think there were 5-6 rigs there. There isn't a shower in the building, but I'm sure that they made it all work.
Just looked over MOT's offerings, and there are some really neat coaches listed. No Unihomes shown, but they're out there.
Didn't mean to scare you but while we travel around here light, heading across country, we keep more water in it and before hitting a campground, we fill the water tank and have plenty of propane as we fill the tank before leaving for a longer trip. A lot of campgrounds have showers so we use them rather than using our water and filling the gray/black water tanks. We do travel in comfort but keep it light around home where everything is almost vertical.
We ran into the Bluebird/Wanderlodge group in Death Valley and was really shocked with their weight. A lot had Detroits but one fellow told us about his old Bluebird with a 3208 CAT pushing well over 40,000 lbs. Said it made the original VW bus seem fast.
Pierce
We are "some timers." We spend a few weeks every year in the coach. I seldom go more than about 460 miles on a fresh tank of fuel. We could easily travel 800 miles on about 115 gallons of fuel, but I prefer to keep a full tank of fuel when stopped overnight. We also try to travel with full fresh water and empty waste tanks. We sometimes travel in winter and try to keep enough food, water, waste capacity, and fuel to last 3-5 days in case we get trapped by weather or mechanical issues.
We seldom use toilet, shower, and cleaning facilities outside the coach. We do use laundromats if we are out more than about 10 days.
We easily run self contained for 4-5 days. We could go longer if we were conservative. I went about twice that long by myself on a recent trip.
Fully laden our coach weighs around 28,000# and towed vehicle weighs about 3,200#. Our engine is a Cummins C8.3-325 (fully mechanical) with Banks Stinger (maybe 340-375 HP). We drive at 65 mph when conditions allow and get 7 mpg +-.
For eight months we owned a 37' DP of another brand. It was the same model year as our Foretravel. There was a lot we liked about the floor plan and amenities. It was lighter and had a Cummins B5.9 engine. Fuel mileage was around 9 mpg. It had enough power, but the brakes were marginal. The ride and handling were bad. The insulation and heating systems would not keep us safe in freezing weather. We were pleased we owned it in order to find out the difference a good motorhome and a very popular brand.
Perhaps my data points will assist you in establishing your expectations.
I would like to expand my description of us as "some timers." We have put over 45,000 miles on our coach in the four years we have owned it. We have traveled in temperatures ranging from -10F to 110F. We have traveled in Montana in the winter and Texas in the summer. We do have some varied experiences as "some timers."
Best wishes for a successful transition to your next vehicle.
I can go two weeks on my tanks if I am careful and many times a long week plus just living.
I think a coach like ours would work nicely for you. A 40' U320 in the mid-to-late 90s will have two very nice underfloor storage bays, if if you pick the right floor plan a very generous amount of closet and other storage space inside. Ours has the 400 HP Cummins M-11 and I really appreciate its torque. Even though I like the Detroit engines, the four-stroke Cummins and the 6-speed Allison make a superior combination. We typically drive the speed limit or about 70 MPH, and with Aqua-Hot and generator usage typically get around 8 MPG.
This is a little off topic but I want to complement this forum in general. You folks are pretty nice so far, and have been very helpful and informative.
I'll probably hang around whether I buy a Foretravel or not, if you guys don't throw me off! ;D
TOM
If you get your bird to so cal my friend is a bird genius on repairs. Especially electrical stuff. Fixes the systems that the normal guys mess up.
Thanks Bob, I'll keep that in mind.
TOM