Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: philtravel on April 22, 2014, 11:14:37 am
Title: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: philtravel on April 22, 2014, 11:14:37 am
I just installed a Silver Leaf monitoring system so now I have accurate engine temperature and intake manifold temperature. I have suspected for sometime now that my engine (ISM 450) is operating cooler than it should. Probably a result of the cooling fan staying on high more than it should. Today with outside air temps around 70 my coolant temperature has been staying around 180 with manifold temperatures hovering around 86 degrees. Does anybody know what the ideal operating temperatures should be? I would think for the engine to operate at peak efficiency it would need to be a little bit higher temperature. Also, if my cooling fan is running on high speed that will also affect efficiency.
Only had the Silver Leaf operating a couple of hours but I'm loving it.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Keith and Joyce on April 22, 2014, 11:56:00 am
You should be OK as 180 deg is at the low end of acceptable.
Keith
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 22, 2014, 12:12:04 pm
Hey Phil,
Silverleaf is very cool. Did you use VMSpc? Endless ways to adjust displays.
180° is pretty much normal for me, sometimes a but less, sometimes a bit more but +- 4° or 5° Depending on outside temps and loads. It was running 178° all morning coming up to Bowling Green, light rain, low 70's.
Roger
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Michael & Jackie on April 22, 2014, 12:29:22 pm
Gauge not all that easy to read on mine, but appears to stay in 185-190 range except if around 100 degrees ambient and especially with hills, then around 205-210 for few miles till terrain levels, then back to the 190 range.
hope that helps, just dash gauges......I really NEED that VMpc, right?!
mike
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Retired Navy Chief on April 22, 2014, 02:21:50 pm
I too just purchased a silverleaf VMS 440 CL and monitored temps etc on a trip from Flordia to Ohio this past weekend. My coolant temp was a solid 180 the entire time. That is close to what the gage indicated as well. My thought is that it has a 180 thermostat and all is well. I am in the process of mounting the unit and will post pics when completed in the "what did you do to your coach today" posting. David
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: John S on April 22, 2014, 03:11:46 pm
Mine runs about 180 too. It pops up to 190 on the hills on I 81 and in the summer it will pop up a bit more on hills. In July and at about 100 ambient I hit 224 climbing the hill to the tunnel just west of Denver.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 22, 2014, 03:25:13 pm
I never let the water temp get to 205f, that is not high, but know heat is a big killer, so I will down shift, back off the speed, what ever it takes to keep temp under 205. Big reason, the 180 f thermostat is fully open at 195 f, when temp goes above that point is due to the inability to control temps, so will keep going up. Thermostats control minimum temp, not max temp. Do what makes you happy, I sure do.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 22, 2014, 06:00:19 pm
Mike,
You will really like VMSpc. Lots of ways to hook it up to a computer or laptop and many display options. There has been rumors about an iPad version but I haven't seen it yet.
Michelle posted a link to a sale on the VMSpc hardware. Saved about $75.
Silverleaf VMSPC Engine Monitoring on Your Laptop (http://www.rvupgradestore.com/SilverLeaf-VMSPC-p/vmspc.htm)
It is quite amazing to see lifetime history and real time history. Very useful.
Roger
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: philtravel on April 22, 2014, 06:36:33 pm
Thanks for the responses, I did use the vmspc unit. The history confirmed my total hours and milage is correct. That was comforting to know and having all the data offers a lot of comfort as well. My only regret is not getting it sooner. I found myself driving much more conservatively having the MPG front and center. I got my MPG up to almost 10 MPG on the last 600 miles. This was up from typically about 7 and as low as 6.5. I was getting there a little faster with the lower MPG but now I have the ability to do the math and really know how much more its gonna cost me or how much I can save. The amount of information is incredible. I still need to do a permanent installation and will follow up with some pictures when I get it done.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: jor on April 22, 2014, 09:24:54 pm
Quote
In July and at about 100 ambient I hit 224 climbing the hill to the tunnel just west of Denver.
That's a bit high for that Cummins. The book indicates the acceptable operating range to be 150 to 212F. jor
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: John S on April 22, 2014, 10:14:50 pm
It is high but it was 100 degrees out and it went up to over 10,000 feet. Not much cooling there. I got to coast down the other side though. I did not have my foot in it either. I do not operate in that range but did how up there as the highest I have hit.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 22, 2014, 10:44:35 pm
Detroit 92 series have wet cylinder liners with special sealing rings to keep the coolant out of the oil in the crankcase. These rings can be damaged by high temperature so U300 operators or any other wet lined diesel must watch gauges and limit time over 200 degrees. 71 series are not wet engines so more tolerant of high temps.
Pierce
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: George Hatfield on April 23, 2014, 04:56:03 am
We use Silverleaf monitoring on our ISL400 and it usually runs at 183 degrees. Very consistent. If I am going up a grade I try to keep the load less than 100% by slowing down and shifting down, this keeps the temp very close to the 183 degree mark. If I push it at 100% load, the temps will increase well above 200. I suppose the engine can handle it, but I usually don't push it. We've driven a lot of mountain roads without complications..... North Cascade Highway in Washington last year, for example.
George
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: dwest on April 23, 2014, 09:20:50 am
Silver leaf as well. Temps are consistent 176-180. Toad or not. I haven't learned all the system has to offer. Working on it. David
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: jor on April 23, 2014, 11:10:32 am
Quote
If I push it at 100% load, the temps will increase well above 200.
That's interesting. I often do 100% but see little increase in coolant temperature on my M11. Might be the lighter coach (about 29,000). One thing I've wondered about is the torque figure. Our last coach had a max torque of 1450 and I would see that when pulling hard. This one has a max of 1350 but it only rises to 1343. I want my seven pounds! jor
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 23, 2014, 11:24:56 am
The only time the issue arose was driving from Sheridan, Wy south on I-25 to Denver on a very hot day last July 2013, was running 70-75 towing the F150 with the heavy ATV, wound up running 65-70 with some 5th gear time on long pulls. Was able to keep below 200f. All during the heat of the day. When arrived at Nac, had the radiator fins blown / washed out, a notable amount of dirt, leaves etc came out.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Michael & Jackie on April 23, 2014, 08:02:04 pm
Thanks Roger.....I found I need a pc with Pentium 120 or better, 16 mb RAM, and hard drive. I checked and Gus has the six pin connection
Should be easy; I looked recently at a Toshiba at Best Buy, about $350. It was pentium but not sure the RAM.
Question.....some pcs, maybe all?, in stores come only with Windows 8. THe silver leaf people for this do not cite windows 8 as usable. I am thinking there is a computer repair/used computers shop here that will have what I need for about $140 from what local people tell me, so that might be the way to go......will look into that tomorrow.
The connection fixture on the wall of the coach has nine holes in it, seven of which seem to be shiny and two seem without metal contacts in them
thanks,
mike
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 23, 2014, 08:22:55 pm
Mike, would not buy a new computer, I would look for an older XT notebook, (that is what I use) they should be plentiful and cheap. Actually my old notebook is a ME with the serial port, the newer VMSpc is the USB type and are great. Dave M
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 23, 2014, 08:38:47 pm
Mike,
I used an Asus PC. It is about the size of 2 dvd cases. USB2 , USB3, WIFI, Ethernet port, HDMI output, 350 GB hard drive, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2 GB RAM (i put in a 4 GB card), SDHC card slot, ~$360. Comes with a wireless mouse and keyboard as well.
Amazon.com: ASUS EeeBox EB1033-B048E Desktop: Computers & Accessories (http://www.amazon.com/Asus-EB1033-B048E-ASUS-EeeBox-Desktop/dp/B00FA6LKJE/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1398298650&sr=1-2&keywords=asus+ebox)
I use a 7" Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 for a display. It connects to the PC using WIFI, no wires.
I have a dvd read/write external disc drive and a 1TB external hard drive as well.
Works great!
Send me a PM if you have questions.
Dave M is right, lot of folks us an adequate laptop. They will work fine. I just didn't want a laptop sitting on the dash. I can use my iPad as a display as well. And then I have a pc in the coach for other stuff.
Start simple if that works best for you.
Windows 8 is OK. Installing some of the VMSpc drivers take an extra step or two. How to do this is pretty well documented. Windows 7 (or XP) is simpler for most of us to use. It is familiar.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: jor on April 23, 2014, 09:50:38 pm
Quote
Should be easy; I looked recently at a Toshiba at Best Buy, about $350. It was pentium but not sure the RAM.
Mike, Works fine on Windows 8. You can pick up an Acer laptop at Walmart for $199 or you could probably find an old one as Dave suggested for 50 bucks or so. I just use an Acer and it's OK but I gotta say, I like Roger's sophisticated install. I'm thinking an iPad with a nifty dash mount would be ideal. Good luck. jor
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Michael & Jackie on April 23, 2014, 11:00:48 pm
Oh Jor, you are exactly right! If I could just do what Roger explained to me....and I may well try with more of his help or my son I law. It sounds so right, avoids laptop on my small area on the 2001 dash...and yet I saw Dave M's one time he was here and it was great, envied ever since. So dash may be good, gotta go look at those computers....this was great help
Thanks thanks thanks
Mike
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Caflashbob on April 24, 2014, 03:03:37 pm
Mine runs about 180 too. It pops up to 190 on the hills on I 81 and in the summer it will pop up a bit more on hills. In July and at about 100 ambient I hit 224 climbing the hill to the tunnel just west of Denver.
Perfectly normal.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: PatC on April 24, 2014, 03:22:45 pm
Just prior to the time I retired, the company I worked for has just purchased 20 new Internationals with Cummins ISM 330/370 HP. It was back about 2000. I noticed that they ran hotter (190 to 200) than the than the older Cummins we had in the fleet. I inquired about it and was told that the new engines were designed to run hotter, that hotter made for a more efficient engine.
At one time Cummins was working on a turbo with ceramic bearings and races that could handle more heat. Don't know what ever happened to that.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 24, 2014, 04:01:07 pm
Engines that are designed to run hotter are more efficient and produce fewer emissions. Key word here is designed. Boat forums are excellent guides to most all aspects of operation and include most all of our engines. Because of the much higher horsepower output from the same engine we use, the accelerated wear brings all the faults out quickly. Our 6V-92TA when installed in a sport fisherman generally produces 525-535 hp so it's easy to see what works and what doesn't. Several forums have recommended 190 degrees max for our engine triggering an alarm if it goes one degree above that. Naturally, 500 plus horsepower produces much higher combustion chamber pressures and temperatures but the posts also serve as food for thought as our temp gauge nears 200 degrees.
Pierce
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: John S on April 24, 2014, 04:39:43 pm
I will say that is the toughest climb I have had to make in the summer and it is the only one where the temps got that high too. Usually the highest is about 210. 42 foot and a jeep is heavier than my 36 foot and that rarely broke 205 even on the hot days climbing the hills.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: steve on April 24, 2014, 07:32:02 pm
I never let the water temp get to 205f, that is not high, but know heat is a big killer, so I will down shift, back off the speed, what ever it takes to keep temp under 205. Big reason, the 180 f thermostat is fully open at 195 f, when temp goes above that point is due to the inability to control temps, so will keep going up. Thermostats control minimum temp, not max temp. Do what makes you happy, I sure do.
Ditto to what Dave said ... that is how I drive the coach as well. Have only seen the self imposed 205F limit a few times and then I just back off as needed and the numbers come back down relatively quickly. You can certainly drive it harder, I just don't.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Bill Chaplin on April 25, 2014, 09:29:46 am
Silverleaf VMSPC Engine Monitoring on Your Laptop
This setup will not work on at least the U300 because of the JIB to motorhome connect plug. Requires an Allison flat plug
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: philtravel on April 25, 2014, 06:59:21 pm
I used an Asus PC. It is about the size of 2 dvd cases. USB2 , USB3, WIFI, Ethernet port, HDMI output, 350 GB hard drive, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2 GB RAM (i put in a 4 GB card), SDHC card slot, ~$360. Comes with a wireless mouse and keyboard as well.
Amazon.com: ASUS EeeBox EB1033-B048E Desktop: Computers & Accessories (http://www.amazon.com/Asus-EB1033-B048E-ASUS-EeeBox-Desktop/dp/B00FA6LKJE/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1398298650&sr=1-2&keywords=asus+ebox)
I use a 7" Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 for a display. It connects to the PC using WIFI, no wires.
I have a dvd read/write external disc drive and a 1TB external hard drive as well.
Works great!
Send me a PM if you have questions.
Dave M is right, lot of folks us an adequate laptop. They will work fine. I just didn't want a laptop sitting on the dash. I can use my iPad as a display as well. And then I have a pc in the coach for other stuff.
Start simple if that works best for you.
Windows 8 is OK. Installing some of the VMSpc drivers take an extra step or two. How to do this is pretty well documented. Windows 7 (or XP) is simpler for most of us to use. It is familiar.
I ordered the Asus that you used and plan on copying your set up. Thanks for the info it looks very clean. I have been using a lap top located in the same cabinet but it occupies the entire space. It is old anyway we would use it with a connection to the front TV as an extra computer and to use with the sling box. I plan on using my I pad with the wyfi signal for a display but will have the ability to operate or use on the TV as well. This will give lots of flexibility for use. Thanks everyone for sharing your info on Temps. and set ups!!
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 25, 2014, 07:28:56 pm
I used the iPad app "Air Display 2" it is not free but a good one. You download an app onto the PC that starts when the PC does. Run Air Display on the iPad and it connects. If you are using a cellular wifi device then both connect to it and away you go.
I have a wireless router that I set up to create a private wireless network in the coach. The oc and the ipad connect to it as does my printer, another iPad, an android tablet, 2 iPhones. It uses the internet connection through my cellular wifi device when it is available. It can also use wifi in a campground as an internet connection when that is available.
I use a CradlePoint MBR95. There are others with this capability as well.
Air Display 2 on the App Store on iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/air-display-2/id705578162?mt=8)
Have fun.
I can send you the file for my display if you want. Everything is customizable. Make it look the way it works best for you.
Roger
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: tothetrail on June 12, 2014, 01:39:55 pm
I have a wireless router that I set up to create a private wireless network in the coach. The oc and the ipad connect to it as does my printer, another iPad, an android tablet, 2 iPhones. It uses the internet connection through my cellular wifi device when it is available. It can also use wifi in a campground as an internet connection when that is available.
I can send you the file for my display if you want. Everything is customizable. Make it look the way it works best for you.
Roger
Roger, after reading everything I can on the subject, your setup looks like the best way to go. I've given up on waiting for a better iPad version. It looks like you're so limited in features if you run the system directly through the iPad. I never even knew about those small PC's. That looks perfect. It will be great to be able to use the TV as a huge monitor for that PC.
One question I have for you is, do you connect to your Silverleaf through wifi, bluetooth, or by USB? I'm planning to use AirDisplay for connecting the PC to my iPad to use that as the display, but I'm still not sure what's the best route for connecting the PC to the Silverleaf. If yours is through USB, how did you route the wire?
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Michael & Jackie on June 12, 2014, 03:56:16 pm
you are not alone Jennifer.....I sent Roger almost the exact same question via a PM. I am not trying to do this unreasonably cheap, I want it to work well and work easily, but I would like to do the most cost effective means.
That said, I await word from Roger as you.....wondering if the simple pc is just the least cost, and yet his looks so neat, not space hog. But I hate to buy a table, bet that many hundreds of bucks?
mike
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: philtravel on June 13, 2014, 08:05:35 am
With Rodgers input we also used the same setup. I am viewing it on my iPad with wyfi. I love the setup and wish I had done it sooner.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Caflashbob on June 13, 2014, 08:25:29 am
Mine runs about 180 too. It pops up to 190 on the hills on I 81 and in the summer it will pop up a bit more on hills. In July and at about 100 ambient I hit 224 climbing the hill to the tunnel just west of Denver.
Sounds entirely normal to me.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on June 13, 2014, 06:13:05 pm
VMSpc
The VMSpc interface module connects to the 6 pin diagnostic port up front near the driver's left knee. From there a USB cable runs to your PC. My USB cable runs up from the dash area inside the front vertical window trim on the driver's side window through a small hole into the overhead cabinet.
Probably the least expensive way to set this up is to just use a laptop or an ultrabook. VMSpc uses very little computer power so almost anything will work. If you want to do more then maybe a more computer would be useful. There are some very nice ultrabooks out there for $600 or so. A nice used laptop might only be a couple hundred.
In my set up I have a small PC located in the driver's side overhead compartment. It can connect to my front TV with an HDMI cable. It has a wireless keyboard and mouse. It has built in WIFI and when the pc is connected to a wireless router and my tablet is connected to the wireless router then I can send the display to the tablet using wifi.
I don't know if you can connect a tablet to the PC using a bluetooth connection or a USB cable. I haven't tried it.
I use a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 7" tablet. I got mine at Costco for $115. It was an open box display item. They can be found new for about $140 now. Almost any android tablet or iPad will work. A used tablet is a pretty low risk choice.
Having internet access while you travel is important to many of us. Your smart phone or cellular enabled tablet does this for most of us. Many of these can be a mobile hot spot which lets other devices share the phone's connection to the internet. I use a Verizon MiFi device which connects to the internet and then is a wireless router to connect phone, pc, tablet and printer.
There are other ways to connect devices wirelessly without getting access to the internet.
I can send pictures if you would like them. Send me an email and I will help as best I can.
Roger
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 13, 2014, 06:19:52 pm
You folks sure get fancy, my display notebook has the old ME system, works as well as any big $$$ display. Sits on dash very nice. I do what makes me happy.
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: tothetrail on June 13, 2014, 06:27:11 pm
The VMSpc interface module connects to the 6 pin diagnostic port up front near the driver's left knee. From there a USB cable runs to your PC. My USB cable runs up from the dash area inside the front vertical window trim on the driver's side window through a small hole into the overhead cabinet.
Exactly what I needed, thank you!
Title: Re: Engine operating temperatures
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on June 13, 2014, 08:42:38 pm
Do what Dave says, whatever make you happy.
Lots of ways to make this work. End result is pretty much the same.