Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: TAS69 on May 13, 2014, 10:06:55 pm
Title: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 13, 2014, 10:06:55 pm
Was looking at purchasing a seemingly well kept 87 model 36' that was converted from 429/460 to 8.3 Cummings with 6 spd Allison. Wanted some honest advice on what I should look for or expect when I make the trip to look at this unit. Owner claims it has new tires and appliances and is asking $14,000.00. Say's he isn't sure of mileage??? Nobody will loan a dime on vehicle this age so I 'm left wondering if I should look newer or scrape together what little we have left after Uncle Sams recent visit and hope there is no major issues rolling home to Nashville from Virginia. Am very much interested in a high quality older coach with mechanical diesel as opposed to a newer and or smaller 460/V10 cheaper built unit. Just don't want a pig in a poke! Any input is most definitely appreciated!
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on May 13, 2014, 10:29:10 pm
Just a few random thoughts. Price seems high for a converted 1987, but if you love it, well, it may be worth it. A 6 speed sounds great in such a rig.
"New tires" can mean a lot of things to owners. Check the tire date(s) and see how "new" they are.
The "conversion" will add a level of "you are on your own here" as I don't think there are many here on the forum with conversion experience to be able to help you if needed.
Here's some other choices in that general price range: Foretravel Grand Villa Motor home (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/rvs/4464924530.html) and 1991 Foretravel Grand Villa Motorhome (http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/rvs/4432630677.html)
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: kb0zke on May 13, 2014, 10:36:19 pm
Welcome, TAS69. There are several people here who can give you more specific advice. I'll give you what little I know.
Tires: Check the DOT date code on each tire. Since it is only one one side, it is possible that the codes for the duals may be hidden. Taking along a young, agile person with good eyesight may be helpful. Since the seller says the tires are "new" I'd expect a date code of 12xx or 13xx at least. A 14xx would be wonderful, but unlikely.
Appliances: You may or may not like what the seller has selected, so I wouldn't pay any extra or deduct anything UNLESS something major doesn't work. We had decided, long before we started looking for a specific coach, that when the RV refrigerator died it would be replaced with a residential unit. The refrigerator was working (sort of) when we first looked at it, but it had died by the time we went to pick it up. Didn't make any difference to us because we had already planned for a residential unit. DO make sure that the seller demonstrates each appliance.
It sounds like you have done some homework already. You might print out the inspection form and take it along. Not every item will apply, and your own good sense will help you quite a bit. My suggestion is to leave your checkbook at home. That way you won't be tempted to jump before you have truly thought. There are plenty of coaches available, and if anything seems "off" run away. Ask lots of questions, and don't be afraid to ask some really pointed ones. After all, YOU are the one who will be handing over your hard-earned money to a stranger.
After thinking about that last sentence a bit, it sounds a bit harsh, and it really isn't meant to be. Before you make the trip ask the seller if you can ask about the coach my name here on the forum. Someone here may be able to give you more information about it.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Michelle on May 13, 2014, 10:39:56 pm
Tires: Check the DOT date code on each tire. Since it is only one one side, it is possible that the codes for the duals may be hidden. Taking along a young, agile person with good eyesight may be helpful. Since the seller says the tires are "new" I'd expect a date code of 12xx or 13xx at least. A 14xx would be wonderful, but unlikely.
I think that should be "xx12", "xx13", etc. First 2 are week, last 2 are year.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 13, 2014, 10:43:24 pm
Had a rear engine gasser, (1989) blew engine, should have made that swap.
Engine was probably used with miles, see if you can figure out if it came from an RV.
You are a bit on your own. Just was in Nashville for 5 days, would have been happy to look it over for you:-( .
Offer what makes you comfortable. Worse they can say is no, won't be a lot of action on this unit.
Would still prefer it to any other $14k RV I could buy, nice power for that size.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: fredlewers on May 13, 2014, 10:43:49 pm
Hi TAS69, Welcome to the forum. Ditto. Also, have you looked at the classifieds board? There are several coaches listed there. What are your technical skills? Do you fix your own stuff & to what level? Good luck with your coach hunt :)
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 13, 2014, 10:44:22 pm
Anytime you consider a vehicle that has had a transplant, it's going to take an extra amount of time and expertise. How well was the conversion done? How does the radiator cool the 8.3? How about the rear end ratio? Will it cruise easily at 65 with another 10 to go or is it getting close to max revs at that speed? It can make a big difference in MPG.
Aside from new appliances, how is the exterior finish and most importantly, how is the undercarriage as far a corrosion goes. You have probably read about bulkhead issues. Not a big deal if taken care of early on.
Sure would be nice to have another owner take a look with you. In my dream world, I would like to see a three person team go over a coach including at least one woman. They always see things the guys miss. Make sure to take it for an extended drive checking that all systems are working as they should. Even more important with a transplant.
Could be a really nice rig but keep a good perspective when inspecting it. The 8.3 coupled to the six speed Alison is an excellent combination but only if it's been done correctly.
Good luck,
Pierce
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: RRadio on May 13, 2014, 11:29:14 pm
I always do the opposite of what everyone else does and it works great for me. Here's some opposite thinking for you. I've driven all over the country on my 9 year old tires that have no weather cracking and I'm still alive with no blow outs or any kind of tire excitement at all. Other people on this forum would have spent over $10,000 on at least three sets of new tires in 9 years. So I guess what I want to say is don't freak out over the date code if the tires still look like new. Just use the date code as a bargaining tool in your favor when negotiating a lower price, then drive all over the country on your timed out tires if you want and enjoy life.
The most efficient speed to operate a motor coach at is about 60 mph, which basically means a 6 speed transmission won't even be able to shift into high gear unless the rear differential has been modified. Even if it's been geared so the transmission can shift into 6th, do you really want a transmission that shifts constantly? Constant shifting is a major cause of transmission wear and generates extra heat and it can drive you nutso.
The seller has to find a cash buyer because the coach is too old to finance. This gives you tremendous buying power if you've got cash. It's very difficult to find a cash buyer in this economy. Most motor coach buyers with cash will foolishly waste their cash on a downpayment for a new(er) coach and then make payments on it. Make sure you know exactly what coach you want and hold out for that exact coach. You can basically have any coach you want as long as it's too old to finance. So don't buy anything less than what you really want. Definitely don't buy a "starter" coach... All this to say, have you looked at a U300 in the too old to finance category? It's the same price. All the coaches in this category cost less than the cheapest new car you can buy, so pick the best possible one and you'll never want to "upgrade" later. I kinda laugh at the notion of upgrading cuz it's not even possible. The newer coaches are a downgrade when you examine what you're actually getting for equipment but yet they're unbelievably more expensive.
The appliance modification could be a total deal breaker for me. There's no way I'd even consider a coach with a residential refrigerator or an electric stove. I'm sorry but I just can't live without the ability to unplug and run on propane for extended periods of time. It's a freedom thing for me and an emergency preparedness thing. Electric appliances are the exact opposite of what I want.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 13, 2014, 11:32:51 pm
If it had a big block ford it was an Oshkosh chassis - bulkhead issues do not apply - they were rear radiator - would definitely agree to drive and see how it handles, shifts, what is RPM at 65 MPH vs. max torque RPM for an 8.3 (don't know, but engine should live at max torque RPM at 65 MPH in top gear if correctly geared in the rear end
Love the idea, think price not right
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: RRadio on May 13, 2014, 11:52:11 pm
It looks like those two coaches Brad & Christine posted above are U300s that are in the too old to finance category. I would have to seriously question whether I could really live with myself after buying anything other than the finest coach ever made for that same price... just saying
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: drcscruggs on May 14, 2014, 01:06:43 am
I think I like the one that is at Canyon Lake. It looks like a good deal to me. I know I would prefer the canyon lake one to the one that has had the conversion. I have an 8.3, and it has been great. I would be afraid of the conversion and would prefer stock. Yes, it may be fine and then again, it may be a headache that certainly could be easily avoided when there are other fine options out there. I have heard really good things about those detroit diesels. I drove one once and it was on a Vogue motorhome and it really did have a nice sound and good performance. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 14, 2014, 03:28:10 am
We all have different views of this setup, for me, first off, 6 speed Allison, (computerized) the 8.3 Cummins, is that a mechanical or computer engine ? Would prefer the 640 or 740 series transmission for mechanical engine. If mechanical, would be concerned about the interface to the 6 speed transmission. Having done similar repowering, would be looking at motor mounting structure, transmission mounting, radiator setup, driveline angle & slip joint spacing etc. Brakes, suspension, last way down the list would be paint & body rash, that is easy fix. Pay the money & take your chances if your a mechanical type, if your a paper pusher, forget it. Dave M
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: bbeane on May 14, 2014, 06:09:30 am
Unless you are very mechanically inclined and like to work on things, I would let this one pass. It could be a great conversion, but parts for the conversion part are going to be a real issue to figure out. As Dave M said pay close attention the the radiator/charge air cooler/ transmission cooler set up, make sure every thing stays cool. Also suspension, the 8.3/Allison weights a lot more and has a bunch more torque than the gas set up, that will put a lot of stress on the whole frame/drive axle assembly. As far as the house (coach) part it's 27 years old. Might be a fun weekender/tinkerer coach though. ForeTraveles are fine units but time will get everything sooner or later.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 14, 2014, 09:05:00 am
Thank You all very much. Think I'll let this one ride . Save Save Save to the $20,000.00 or so mark where I can comfortably but older unit and tires and be able to afford to fly /bus and drive home from greater distance. I am a remodeling contractor in mid 40's who has always done own maintenance/ repair on vehicles including building a hot rod going on 7 years now! :P My Wife and I are planning extensive renovation to the house this fall and want to have a temporary residence on site. Always loved the thought of a motor home and figure we can kill two birds with one big stone here! Thanks again and God Bless. Will check the Classified boards in coming months.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on May 14, 2014, 09:13:26 am
TAS69, I don't believe that you would be very happy with the coach your talking about. Even if money is tight you would be better off with one that you can just drive off in and not be spending big bucks on real quickly. 1995 U280 for sale (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=20641.0)
This 95 is mine and for sale. Bought today you could drive it til next year before it needs anything and then only regular annual maintenance. Another factor is that mine has Transynd and ELC which greatly reduces your maintenance costs then. Gary B
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 14, 2014, 10:09:32 am
I am completely gobsmacked that Gary has not sold hie U280. I have been in that coach and it's awesome and priced more than just reasonably. Heck... it's cheap. Gary knows what he's doing and has kept the RV upgraded and maintained. Before I bought my U225 I had zeroed in on his coach as the one I would have liked but, naturally, his coach wasn't for sale then.
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 14, 2014, 03:09:19 pm
Thanks again everyone! Will be 4 mos or so before I could dream of paying you a visit Gary. I hope for your sake you've sold by then but if not that looks like its right up our alley!
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 14, 2014, 03:21:46 pm
At $9000, it's worth a look. 1986 Foretravel Grandvilla 36, SAN ANTONIO TX - 112251605 - RVTrader.com (http://www.rvtrader.com/listing/1986-Foretravel-Grandvilla-36-112251605)
Pierce
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Bill Willett on May 14, 2014, 05:13:45 pm
Really 16k for a Banks turbo kit.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 14, 2014, 07:25:18 pm
Not withstanding the price is 4x the value of the coach, it is CLEAN from piccy's. (Brian where have you been?)
Headliner still hasn't sagged, decals , chrome and gel coat all look like it has been inside and pampered.
460 OREG 36'. Been there, done that. UGH
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: fredlewers on May 14, 2014, 08:50:48 pm
If you could get it for around 5K, it would be worth repowering. A turned up Cummins Big Cam III with an Allison.... OUCH! It would just about fly over the mountains. I've already decided that when my clatterpillar pukes, its getting swapped for a mechanical Cummins.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Caflashbob on May 17, 2014, 01:55:27 am
If you could get it for around 5K, it would be worth repowering. A turned up Cummins Big Cam III with an Allison.... OUCH! It would just about fly over the mountains. I've already decided that when my clatterpillar pukes, its getting swapped for a mechanical Cummins.
You will fade the hydraulic disk brakes if driving hard. Work well for two hard stops. Three no....
Same brakes as alpines had. Drove one for a company use for two weeks and was very careful in the big hills.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: fredlewers on May 17, 2014, 09:18:10 pm
Good point Bob. Slowing is as important as steering.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Caflashbob on May 18, 2014, 02:37:54 am
Good point Bob. Slowing is as important as steering.
More so.
Your ORED as I remember has a LQ4 valve under the dash that disables the front 15x4 drum brakes unless you hit the brakes hard enough to put more than 60 psi through the system. At normal pedal pressures the rear 15x7 drums are the only ones working. Careful as they overheat if driven hard.
Had a customer redo the system to allow the fronts to work all the time. Much better.
Why did Oshkosh put it in in the first place? A shudder in the front brakes backing up is why?
Gilligs shuddered in reverse from the two different size brake shoes that are partially self energizing going forward. Same thing in reverse caused the shudder from the secondary shoe. ,
Sticking my neck out here as some here are real wrenches and might laugh at me.
Bob
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 18, 2014, 08:59:36 am
Was curious if there were any owners of mid ninety's or older units in middle Tennessee area? We've searched every dealership and classified we can and no luck... Would love for my wife to be able to actually see one so as to know what I am carrying on about! By see I mean other than internet photo's.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on May 18, 2014, 10:05:35 am
TAS69, Go by Tennessee RV in Knoxville and say hello to James, he has a classic and would probably be glad to show it off, or drop him a PM here, I think JAHOLDER is his handle. Gary B
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: DaveLarose on May 18, 2014, 04:35:37 pm
TAS69, this is also handy;
Hottest Craigslist Deals on Motorhomes (http://home.centurytel.net/bbyrd2100/CL_Motorhome.htm)
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: MR B2 on May 19, 2014, 02:40:48 am
Try, RVZEZ.com,, They have heaps of Foretravels for sale, Under 20 Grand, Pre 1990, and in very good condition,
There might be one near you, So you can take the wife along to see one in the flesh, She wont be dissapointed,
And the curtains are always the wrong colour, any way, Hahahahaha.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 19, 2014, 11:32:59 am
Hottest Craigslist Deals on Motorhomes (http://home.centurytel.net/bbyrd2100/CL_Motorhome.htm)
We found our coach on craigslist but I have to say that it can be frustrating. Amazing how many people trying to sell their used motor home will put every single brand in the listing in order to pull in searches. Like that one above, someone selling a Bounder showed up. :P
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 19, 2014, 12:18:25 pm
No Bounders here: Google Custom Search (https://www.google.com/cse?cx=008732268318596706411:nhtd4cwl5xu&q=foretravel&oq=foretravel&gs_l=partner.3..0.4056.6181.0.6667.10.5.0.5.5.0.256.880.0j4j1.5.0.gsnos%2Cn%3D13...0.2137j626423j10..1ac.1.25.partner..1.9.705.ErZiy88LkGA#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=foretravel&gsc.page=1)
Covers Craigslist well.
Pierce
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 20, 2014, 10:34:21 pm
Thanks for the advice ! RVEZE Turned up a nice 89 36' in Knoxville are with 113,000 miles and Detroit V8 215HP with 4 spd 545 Allison. Seems like a low power yet relatively low stress powertrain. Owner claims everything is tip top except ice maker. Asking $25,000.00 OBO Only has one picture? Anyone familiar with this powertrain? Gentleman says if no one makes serious offer in 4 weeks or so he'll contact me willing to finance with decent down payment!
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 20, 2014, 10:48:13 pm
I think you can find something better. And cheaper.
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Caflashbob on May 20, 2014, 10:57:37 pm
Thanks for the advice ! RVEZE Turned up a nice 89 36' in Knoxville are with 113,000 miles and Detroit V8 215HP with 4 spd 545 Allison. Seems like a low power yet relatively low stress powertrain. Owner claims everything is tip top except ice maker. Asking $25,000.00 OBO Only has one picture? Anyone familiar with this powertrain? Gentleman says if no one makes serious offer in 4 weeks or so he'll contact me willing to finance with decent down payment!
Spring coach, hydraulic disk brakes.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 20, 2014, 11:39:41 pm
Thanks for the advice ! RVEZE Turned up a nice 89 36' in Knoxville are with 113,000 miles and Detroit V8 215HP with 4 spd 545 Allison. Seems like a low power yet relatively low stress powertrain. Owner claims everything is tip top except ice maker. Asking $25,000.00 OBO Only has one picture? Anyone familiar with this powertrain? Gentleman says if no one makes serious offer in 4 weeks or so he'll contact me willing to finance with decent down payment!
Do some more research on the engine, etc. Lots of info here on the forum if you use the search box. You can find a 1992 or later side radiator U280/U300 for less money with outstanding Cummins or Detroit 2 cycle engines. Lots of improvements in a short time. Just don't be in a hurry.
Pierce
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: jaholder76 on May 21, 2014, 07:37:36 am
TAS69, PM Me for more information on this coach. It belongs to a friend of mine. James
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 21, 2014, 07:45:07 am
How often would I be dealing with air bag repair/ replace?
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: twobus on May 21, 2014, 10:21:42 am
The ones on our coach are OEM. I have a spare in the basement, and I bought 2 more to replace the 2 that are in the worst shape, but none of them look as bad as some shown on this forum. Not bad for 25 years I think. I suspect that the very first time you go from springs and juice brakes to riding and stopping on air, you will find your question to be a non-issue!
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: nitehawk on May 21, 2014, 10:49:24 am
TAS69, for what it is worth, I bought our '89 GV 36' almost four years ago for $19,500 plus tax. It has the DD 8.2, 215hp, and had 63,000 miles on it. It has a custom paint job, no decals, new refrigerator, new microwave, new LED TVs, one new AC, and a large storage pod on the roof. We have put 14,000 miles on it since, bought one new circuit breaker for the block heater, one new valve extension, one new inside dual, and now are getting the alternator rebuilt 'cause a dumbass (no names please) hooked the batteries up wrong and caused a BEAUTIFUL spark display. Everything has now been labeled.
My point, I guess, is the price might be high but the Foretravel quality is there. The DD is quite comfortable running around 55-58 MPH and 2500 RPM. A great cruising speed for scenic viewing and around 9 MPG with a 3700# toad. the ride is not air ride quality, but comfortable with the tires set at 85 rear and 95 front. The height of the older GVs make them look like just slightly oversize class Bs when sitting at a rally. And people do come up and ask about the "Neat looking" class A
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 21, 2014, 01:29:28 pm
TAS69, for what it is worth, I bought our '89 GV 36' almost four years ago for $19,500 plus tax. It has the DD 8.2, 215hp, and had 63,000 miles on it. It has a custom paint job, no decals, new refrigerator, new microwave, new LED TVs, one new AC, and a large storage pod on the roof. We have put 14,000 miles on it since, bought one new circuit breaker for the block heater, one new valve extension, one new inside dual, and now are getting the alternator rebuilt 'cause a dumbass (no names please) hooked the batteries up wrong and caused a BEAUTIFUL spark display. Everything has now been labeled.
My point, I guess, is the price might be high but the Foretravel quality is there. The DD is quite comfortable running around 55-58 MPH and 2500 RPM. A great cruising speed for scenic viewing and around 9 MPG with a 3700# toad. the ride is not air ride quality, but comfortable with the tires set at 85 rear and 95 front. The height of the older GVs make them look like just slightly oversize class Bs when sitting at a rally. And people do come up and ask about the "Neat looking" class A
Does that DD w 4spd handle Mountains with your Toad? My Father lives in Taos NM and I enjoy heading up to Estes Park area from there.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: nitehawk on May 21, 2014, 08:35:29 pm
Don't know, as we haven't been in the mountains. But, saying that, it does slow down on steep hills.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 21, 2014, 10:43:53 pm
Been reading on tractor. net and other forums that this isn't a very easy powerplant to work on or get parts for. Late 80's turbos were the best of the series but very difficult to time in regards to injector pumps and very few and far between are mechanics that know how to if a pump has to be rebuilt. Maybe the cummings mechanical is as close to a do it yourself /shade tree mechanic friendly Diesel out there. Or go the 460 route and accept 5 miles per gallon with potential overhaul or two.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: red tractor on May 21, 2014, 10:49:05 pm
I would for sure stay away from the rear engine 460, worked on many of them and they had many issues. I would go for a 5.9 or 8.3 cummins. We had an 84 ored with the 250 hp 3208 cat and that was a good unit. Some of the later 80's oreds had a 300 hp 3208 cat and they would really run, made a good unit.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 21, 2014, 11:01:44 pm
I would for sure stay away from the rear engine 460, worked on many of them and they had many issues. I would go for a 5.9 or 8.3 cummins. We had an 84 ored with the 250 hp 3208 cat and that was a good unit. Some of the later 80's oreds had a 300 hp 3208 cat and they would really run, made a good unit.
I know you're right about that. Have heard some nightmares about truck stops literally seizing DPRV's in lew of 6and7thousand dollar repairs. Having built an aluminum headed stroked 460 or 385 series ford I kinda know what to expect and alot of those older 80's models had lousy exhaust ports and worse cam timing as much as 4degrees retarding by design. Having said all that a late 80's through mid ninety's Cummings 6 cylinder might near the perfect platform with preventative maintenance and some homework. Heard of truckers carrying lots of spare parts up to injectors and the like and wrenching on the side of the road!
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: fkjohns6083 on May 21, 2014, 11:17:29 pm
Quite a few to pick from out there, hard to beet that 300hp Cat 3208T with a side radiator. We love ours up and down mountains, in the heat, in the cold with a 4000 lb toad. As previously stated, it is a runner. Don't see many advertised, mostly the Cummins. Happy hunting ---- Fritz
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 21, 2014, 11:28:33 pm
Would like to thank each and everyone of you again! having been on multiple motorcycle and Ford Big Block forums this is by far the most responsive and helpful group I've met. We are traveling through Atlanta on Friday and will visit Gary and his 95 U280. Convinced my better half will understand all of the excitement she see's in me over these 20 and 25 year old homes after the 30 or so other newer junk units we have looked at and could be financing. No contest , 2012 models with headliners loose, leaks and and doors that won't shut or open!
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 22, 2014, 08:18:26 am
Run from a 460 OREG. Any diesel better.....any one
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: nitehawk on May 22, 2014, 08:51:35 am
For those who don't know, the Oshkosh Truck chassis designs for the older models was sold to Freightliner (this from Mike Grimes at FOT) and we have been able to get good service from our Kenworth Truck sales here in central Wisconsin. Chassis parts and information are still available, but don't bother trying to get anything from Oshkosh Truck.
I do have a complete manual for the Oshkosh Truck Chassis if anyone is seeking information and they don't have a manual.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Michelle on May 22, 2014, 10:16:42 am
We are traveling through Atlanta on Friday and will visit Gary and his 95 U280.
Good luck and fingers crossed for all of you - Gary's U280 is a very nice coach ^.^d
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: DaveLarose on May 22, 2014, 05:22:17 pm
I will also chime in on how easy I have found it to get my Oshkosh and Detroit serviced at big truck shops...
Dave
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 22, 2014, 05:48:25 pm
When you look at a coach remember that fabrics and rugs can all be easily changed. So don't focus on the color of anything or the design of the curtains or valences or whatever. Try to focus on the underlying basics. :)
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 25, 2014, 08:38:14 am
Am convinced that either 5.9 or 8.3 Cummins is going to be what we end up in. Gary's Coach looks like an excellent option. Very nice Coach, well equipped only needing cosmetic work. Found a nice U225 on the board in Arizona that is very appealing from the standpoint of being more affordable to operate and maintain. Purchase price seems more than fair to boot. Like so many things in life its all about compromising one thing for another. Wonder whathe real cost benefit of diesel vs. propane generator works out to ? Also how much difference the storage and width actually means to our family in the 280? Anyone happen to have owned both?
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: fouroureye on May 25, 2014, 09:23:03 am
As a matter of fact, Yes.
We owned an 88 Grand Villa with the compartments. My take would be we were able to have enough storage space for our family of 4 and had room available. Our propane gen-set worked great but we found after purchasing our U280 we liked the diesel better, quiter and we feel more reliable.
The difference between a less than full width and 102 is worth the $$ to us but then again we full time and would not have traded if we had a unihome with the full basement.
Take your time, Gary's is a good coach well maintained. PM if you have questions.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 25, 2014, 10:11:14 am
Unless you are really handy or lucky, the price difference between a known coach with excellent maintenance and an unknown coach can be gone in a blink of an eye when things go wrong. The savings in fuel between the 5.9 and the 8.3 is tiny compared to the total cost of ownership.
I'm constantly checking our MPG but in reality, it's just a game.
Pierce
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 25, 2014, 12:31:45 pm
Thanks guys! Bill seems to be a sincere and stand up fella. We are operating under assumption at this point that both Coaches have been mechanically well cared for with the225 being older yet 100k less miles. The 225 seems to have benefited from dryer climate and being stored indoors. Offhand I wonder about the 280 having engine breaking vs the 5.9 having a signifigantly more affordable partd list for itself and the smallet tranny. No doubt the 280 would have benefits in room /storage and downhill control but is rhe compromise in those areas more than made up for in lower cost to msintain and drive. Forgetting the individuals selling the units as they both seem to care about maintenance and trying to price units fairly.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Jimmy Freytag on May 25, 2014, 12:41:00 pm
Don't forget on the 280 you level the coach with the air bags, so all tires stay on the ground. I would never won't to go back to hyd leveling.
Also the storage is a large plus. You can't believe the difference those 6 inch are for me after having both coaches. The answer for me would be the 280.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: RRadio on May 25, 2014, 01:22:30 pm
Before you buy any side radiator coach do a search on this forum for key word "hydraulic" and read the stories carefully. If you decide to buy a rear radiator coach to avoid the hydraulics be sure to replace the fiberglass fan blade on the rear radiator coach with a new nylon fan blade before you drive the coach anywhere. If you buy a rear radiator coach with a new nylon (not fiberglass) radiator fan you'll have the best of everything in terms of reliability and efficiency. A side radiator U300 cost about twice as much to purchase as a rear radiator U300 two years ago when I bought my coach.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Bill Willett on May 25, 2014, 02:02:34 pm
THE 8.3 is a wet sleeve block and can be in framed if every needed,the 5.9 is not wet sleeved,some times they can be bored and repaired, the MD3060R transmission with the joystick is the way to go if you do a lot of mountain driving,the cost to maintain the 8.3 over the 5.9 is probable 10%. The 5.9 also had what is called the killer dowel pin problem,I do not know the years, I would get the engine serial number and call Cummins.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wolfe10 on May 25, 2014, 03:05:21 pm
The 5.9 also had what is called the killer dowel pin problem,I do not know the years, I would get the engine serial number and call Cummins.
Killer dowel pin was 1988-1998 Cummins B-- the 12 valve engines. Inexpensive to prevent-- can be very expensive if it fails. Google and find a lot of kits to prevent it from coming out.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Caflashbob on May 25, 2014, 03:35:27 pm
THE 8.3 is a wet sleeve block and can be in framed if every needed,the 5.9 is not wet sleeved,some times they can be bored and repaired, the MD3060R transmission with the joystick is the way to go if you do a lot of mountain driving,the cost to maintain the 8.3 over the 5.9 is probable 10%. The 5.9 also had what is called the killer dowel pin problem,I do not know the years, I would get the engine serial number and call Cummins.
The 5.9 was hampered by the non lockup trans IMO. Ran hotter. 542 is an aluminum cased version of the old iron cases gm turbo hydro like a 53 Buick had...
The Allison man had a 542 on a pallet at a FMCA show long ago and I commented that it appeared to be an old hydro trans. He said no way. We bet whether what I said would be written on the bottom of the sump pan.
He lost as it did say "Hydramatic"
Bob
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 25, 2014, 05:02:04 pm
Is the 225 in93 a rear radiator model? Out of town on a smart phone having trouble researching. Either way on the Allison 4 spd I am atimate about preventive maintenance and service. If the converter slippage isan issue on this coach I bet a converter upgrade shouldn't be rocket science, more bullwork. Oversize all alluminum trans cooler from summit or Jegs shouldn't be to hard to install? Very grateful for all the input! Should be ready to purchase in 4to 6 weeks. Am going to research till then..
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Caflashbob on May 25, 2014, 05:18:10 pm
Is the 225 in93 a rear radiator model? Out of town on a smart phone having trouble researching. Either way on the Allison 4 spd I am atimate about preventive maintenance and service. If the converter slippage isan issue on this coach I bet a converter upgrade shouldn't be rocket science, more bullwork. Oversize all alluminum trans cooler from summit or Jegs shouldn't be to hard to install? Very grateful for all the input! Should be ready to purchase in 4to 6 weeks. Am going to research till then..
No,replacement. Part of the natural beauty of the design. The clutch pack may fail if driven harder with a lock up converter. Rear radiator
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 25, 2014, 05:25:07 pm
Other than the storage and Down hill control sounds like the 225 is a lot of bang for the buck. Does the killer dowel have to do with harmonic balancer / pulley assembly?
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 25, 2014, 05:29:13 pm
The U225 is a rear radiator, narrow body (96") and lower overall height than Gary's U280.
We bought our U225 before Gary put his on the market. His U280 would be the coach I would upgrade to. There are some advantages to the U225.
100 gallons of fuel but better fuel efficiency means good range. We get 9mpg towing a Jeep Wrangler with 33" very wide desert-sand tires and about 11.5 to 12mpg solo.
Our plans are to spend time halfway down the Baja Peninsula. The narrower body on a U225 is a big plus on that highway. So is the lower overall height and the lighter weight. Hydraulic leveling jacks are not so great in sand but lots of wood blocks available.
The rear radiator is a PITA when it comes to working on alternators, belts, coolant pumps, etc. But it's simple and access from the bedroom is quite good.
The U280 has a better generator, wider body, more storage (but is taller as a result). The interior living quarters are quite similar, however.
We bought our U225 for $18,500 at the bottom of the RV market in 2011. For us, the difference between the AZ coach and Gary's coach would revolve around the Baja highway issue and driving on sand (where a lighter rig is better given the same footprint).
Gary is a competent hand at working on his rig so that, to me, would be a big plus.
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wolfe10 on May 25, 2014, 05:47:21 pm
Does the killer dowel have to do with harmonic balancer / pulley assembly?
No, it is the locater dowel pin for the timing cover. If it falls out one of three things happen:
1. It falls harmlessly into the pan where it remains (screen on oil inlet prevents it being drawn back into the engine).
2. It can hit cam gear and/or crank gear and knock teeth off, allowing engine to jump time (and usually put valves into pistons).
3. It can hit cam gear and/or crank gear and be thrown through the thin metal of the timing cover allowing oil to rapidly leak out.
The fix is to put remove the timing cover and put a "cover" over the dowel so it can not come out.
Again, just Google "killer dowel pin".
Brett
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Bill Willett on May 25, 2014, 06:21:26 pm
Quote
Other than the storage and Down hill control sounds like the 225 is a lot of bang for the buck. Does the killer dowel have to do with harmonic balancer / pulley assembly?
You must pull the front of the engine down to the block to get at the dowel pin,I have helped a buddy do his on a dodge pickup, it would be a bear on a rear radiator coach, the best bang for the buck is not always the best.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 25, 2014, 08:02:32 pm
You must pull the front of the engine down to the block to get at the dowel pin,I have helped a buddy do his on a dodge pickup, it would be a bear on a rear radiator coach, the best bang for the buck is not always the best.
I appreciate that tearing down the front of any motor in chassis isn't exactly pleasant. At the same time the peace of mind of eliminating a potential issue later to me is priceless! My stroked 460 has been apart 4 times in the last 5 years. Never fun! Yet as Ive learned about cam timing / cam size exhaust ports and so on its been worth the PITA to me. Killer dowell and overheating exhaust manifolds is the only potential issues with the smaller Cummins. Essentially bullet proof with regular maintenance i!
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: red tractor on May 25, 2014, 08:45:44 pm
Having had both a propane and a diesel generator, would much prefer the diesel. It is a pain to try to find propane for the generator while traveling. It can be done, but much easier to find diesel and also does not burn as much diesel as propane.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: twobus on May 25, 2014, 11:53:02 pm
I've driven.a few 5.9 Cumminses. In a pickup truck, they are fantastic. In a Monaco 36'DP (with the pump turned up and with 60lb/hr injectors) it was dog slow. Coal out the tailpipe was all that you got when you gave it the beans. My 6.2l diseasel Georgie Boy pulled better than that. The same rig but unmolested gave less coal out the pipe but no real difference in power delivery in the Fleetwood I drove. OTOH, the 8.3 in the Patriot.. well, I've driven slower cars. I really wanted the 8.3/6speed Unihome but never found it in my limited price range. That said I am perfectly happy with ye olde 3208t and mt643. No trouble at all merging onto the interstate going the speed limit before getting out of the onramp, at least so far...
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 26, 2014, 12:37:15 am
I can't speak to Twobus' Monaco, but our U225 (which also has the Banks Stinger package that the one in AZ has) is certainly not "dog slow". I don't drive it at 70 but I wouldn't drive Gary's U280 at 70 either. The HP/weight ratio and the torque with the Stinger is pretty decent.
No smoke from the exhaust on our rig. Neither black nor white.
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: twobus on May 26, 2014, 01:33:14 am
I've never seen a 5.9 smoke like thaf one either. I bet anything yours is tuned properly and this one was decidedly not. That Banks setup is the bees knees ins't it...
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Dave Head on May 26, 2014, 10:37:13 am
Gary's decals aren't the prettiest (better than mine) but its a great coach that has been well used and serviced regularly...
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Caflashbob on May 26, 2014, 12:20:06 pm
I've driven.a few 5.9 Cumminses. In a pickup truck, they are fantastic. In a Monaco 36'DP (with the pump turned up and with 60lb/hr injectors) it was dog slow. Coal out the tailpipe was all that you got when you gave it the beans. My 6.2l diseasel Georgie Boy pulled better than that. The same rig but unmolested gave less coal out the pipe but no real difference in power delivery in the Fleetwood I drove. OTOH, the 8.3 in the Patriot.. well, I've driven slower cars. I really wanted the 8.3/6speed Unihome but never found it in my limited price range. That said I am perfectly happy with ye olde 3208t and mt643. No trouble at all merging onto the interstate going the speed limit before getting out of the onramp, at least so far...
I have seen cummins damaged from too much fuel input. Washes the oil off the cylinder walls. Compression drops. White smoke a lot.
Drove a 5.9 done by dr diesel's local guy in a dodge extended cab with a camper on it and it had incredible power. Black cloud behind it. Made the clutch slip if not careful on shifting under power.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 26, 2014, 05:30:24 pm
Gary's decals aren't the prettiest (better than mine) but its a great coach that has been well used and serviced regularly...
No doubt ! The power to weight ratio is better in spite of being almost 3 tons heavier, Considerably more storage which will help when we semi retire out west in several years as I plan on doing property management / lighter carpentry in resort community's . No doubt it will pull heavier loads and the generator would be a knockout if we decide to build somewhere between Taos and Albuquerque. The 225 could also suffice just not quite as well...If the prices and or miles were closer it wouldn't be such a quandary for us. Of course both coaches could easily sell before we are ready to move. We're about 4 weeks out...
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 26, 2014, 06:20:26 pm
Since the AZ coach has a Banks, I'm thinking that the power to weight ratio is better on the U225 than on the U280. Somewhere around 300hp out of the 5.9 and an extra 180ft-lbs of torque according to this web page by Banks: Banks Power | 98-02 Dodge - 5.9L Cummins ISB>>Stinger® System (http://bankspower.com/products/show/189/9). Comes out to 1hp for 75lbs of weight.
Banks Power | 98-02 Dodge - 5.9L Cummins ISB>>Stinger® System (http://bankspower.com/products/show/189/9)
The U280 would be 1hp for 93lbs of weight. And nothing says you couldn't spend a couple thou and add a Banks to the 8.3 on Gary's U280. :)
Gary has the edge when it comes to storage and interior room. And the diesel gennie.
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 26, 2014, 06:25:27 pm
It truly is! And I didn't even realize what a bonus it was when I bought the coach. It also had the Pacbrake (but an older version) which I also did not realize was a big plus. The luck of the ignorant. :P
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: Bill Willett on May 26, 2014, 08:57:10 pm
Seen a lot of turned up 8.3's
They are out there, and I have one,for less than $500.00 and a good mechanic that understands the C8.3,you can move it to 375HP safely,the C8.3 will go to 450 in marine service because of the cooling.
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 26, 2014, 09:57:18 pm
It truly is! And I didn't even realize what a bonus it was when I bought the coach. It also had the Pacbrake (but an older version) which I also did not realize was a big plus. The luck of the ignorant. :P
Craig
Which transmission do you have? hearing alot about the 4 spd being considerably less robust than the 6 spd.. #3000 towing in mountains is pushing your luck and so on...
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: wa_desert_rat on May 26, 2014, 11:03:39 pm
Which transmission do you have? hearing alot about the 4 spd being considerably less robust than the 6 spd.. #3000 towing in mountains is pushing your luck and so on...
The 643 transmission is about as robust as you can get. They were in about a zillion school buses and those things are not treated tenderly. I'm going to put either transynd or get the stuff from John Haygarth this year and change it out.
Craig
Title: Re: 87 Grand Villa
Post by: TAS69 on May 27, 2014, 12:21:49 am
The 643 transmission is about as robust as you can get. They were in about a zillion school buses and those things are not treated tenderly. I'm going to put either transynd or get the stuff from John Haygarth this year and change it out.