Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Mountain Couple on May 21, 2014, 03:13:56 pm
Title: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 21, 2014, 03:13:56 pm
In considering a number of used Foretravels from the mid- to late-1990s in our price range, I find several with floor plans and features that would seem to work for us.
In the units I have found, I see a big range in miles behind the Diesel engine, transmission, etc., from only about 50,000 miles to near 150,000 miles.
My question: Assuming proper maintenance records and a clean PDI by a competent Diesel mechanic, is there any substantial reason to prefer a unit with 50,000 miles over a unit with 100,000 miles or a unit with 150,000 miles? What if any advantage is there in a low miles coach?
I have no experience with Diesels, but I understand that they should last 500,000 miles or more, and I'm not sure if these mileage differences would be enough to matter. In a way, I'm tempted to think that higher mileage on a 15- to 20-year-old Foretravel is probably a good thing as it would indicate that it was used and did not sit neglected for a long period.
I want to buy a coach we can reasonably expect to use for 10 years or more, probably about 5,000 miles per year, with proper care on our part.
Thanks for helping a rookie!
Wayne
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Keith and Joyce on May 21, 2014, 03:23:47 pm
Wayne,
My question: Assuming proper maintenance records and a clean PDI by a competent Diesel mechanic, is there any substantial reason to prefer a unit with 50,000 miles over a unit with 100,000 miles or a unit with 150,000 miles? What if any advantage is there in a low miles coach?
Not much. I would not worry about mileage so long as all the correct maintenance/service procedure have been done.
I want to buy a coach we can reasonably expect to use for 10 years or more, probably about 5,000 miles per year, with proper care on our part.
Buy whatever suites you, after reading the above.
Foretravels are very long lived. If looked after they will go on for a lot longer than you will own it. Just make sure that you have it inspected and buy from a reliable person/company.
Keith
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 21, 2014, 03:33:26 pm
. . . Foretravels are very long lived. If looked after they will go on for a lot longer than you will own it. . .
Keith,
After doing a lot of reading, I came to that conclusion a while back. Reason number 1 why Foretravel is at the top of my list!
Thanks!
Wayne
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: fouroureye on May 21, 2014, 03:36:38 pm
Wayne, Welcome and good question ^.^d
You will receive many comments, all I have is our experience with 4 motor homes over 15 years, where 5+ are full time.
We purchased an 88 with 78K miles put 50K on it over several years, minor issues, determined if we used it more more would work, sure nuff as we used it more it took care of it. We would still have it but needed a bigger basement only because we full-time.
The newer one is a 94 6+" wider with 78K miles. Look here and on-line they LAST and are remarkably reliable. There is a 36' 95 on this forum well kept. Just make sure you have inspection. Have Fun, look at a few, take your time.
As far as miles, little advantages lower, but if you can find one great-only concern is sitting doesn't help anything in the coach. The drive train should still be strong. 500K miles will out last me :))
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on May 21, 2014, 03:57:16 pm
I would guess that on average we use our MH's about 15 to 20 K miles a year. At that rate buying a coach with 50 K on it would leave you 10 years to add a hundred thousand. I know of only one MH in my 25 years of MHing that had 300 K on it, a Newell with a CAT V8. I don't think milage means much EXCEPT a ten year old with 25 K on would concern me. How many days has it spent traveling against how many days in a shop for repairs. Gary B
Yes, Mine has 170 K on it and is for sale.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Forewheelers on May 21, 2014, 06:14:13 pm
I am a retired farmer although I am not very good at retirement. I have a number of trucks and tractors that have cummins engines. Milage on a cummins engine would not be of much concern to me. Most of my trucks have over 500,000 miles with one red top cummins having 1.3 million miles.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: D.J. Osborn on May 22, 2014, 08:44:06 am
Beware of an older motorhome with low mileage. It means it has like spent waaaaaay too much time sitting, and in general that's not at all good for a vehicle.
Our motorhome had over 150,000 miles on it when we purchased it in November 2012, and we put around 8,000 miles on it in the first year with no serious mechanical issues. With normal maintenance the engine and drivetrain will likely be good for at least another 750,000 miles before major overhaul. Unfortunately, we suspect we will require major overhaul before our Foretravel does!
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: John S on May 22, 2014, 03:25:04 pm
I am at 158K on this one and hope to go to 500K at least.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 22, 2014, 06:48:47 pm
Beware of an older motorhome with low mileage. It means it has like spent waaaaaay too much time sitting, and in general that's not at all good for a vehicle. . .
Yes, that I understand. I was mainly looking for confirmation of my thought that 150,000 or so miles on a 15 or 20 year old Foretravel should largely be a non-issue for the engine and running gear.
Thanks to everyone for the input!
Wayne
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: wolfe10 on May 22, 2014, 06:52:49 pm
Yes, that I understand. I was mainly looking for confirmation of my thought that 150,000 or so miles on a 15 or 20 year old Foretravel should largely be a non-issue for the engine and running gear.
Thanks to everyone for the input!
Wayne
Wayne,
The big IF is "IF properly maintained".
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Peter & Beth on May 22, 2014, 09:03:11 pm
Like Brett said "well maintained". That means providing records. But, a low mileage coach if properly exercised can be quite excellent. Low miles means nothing if you travel to a destination and stay there for a long time as fultimers usually do. In this case the coach works will be well used but the chassis will not. Again, if properly exercised, even the chassis, engine, etc. could he in great shape. A good inspection will reveal all these tid bits.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 22, 2014, 09:31:04 pm
Shop said 800k to 1.2 million miles on an m11. Cam bearings are the indicator.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: rsihnhold on May 22, 2014, 09:53:43 pm
Since you are not familiar with diesels (I wasn't either but am learning quickly), you really need to know what the service intervals are for the motorhomes you are looking at to truly know if the maintenance was done. If the prior owner/s did not do the required maintenance, it can get expensive pretty quick trying to catch up on everything, even more so if you are paying someone else to do all the work.
One of the numbers that I've seen bandied around these forums is to make sure you have about $10,000 dollars after purchase to cover maintenance and repairs/upgrades. This seems to be a pretty good number from my experience unless the prior owner has meticulous records of everything. Even then, you are buying a 15 year old piece of equipment, things break, and rubber parts naturally decay over time. Hopefully you are able to buy something in which the prior owner has already fixed everything and stayed up to date with maintenance.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 23, 2014, 11:13:03 am
Catfishbob, Would love to have you post a Cummins Bulletin that tells of the Cam Bearing issue at 800,000 miles.
Have been in touch with Cummins, they have no knowledge of the cam bearings being an issue.
I enjoy reading some of your statements, however some about engines surely produce the giggle factor.
Fully understand your being a sales type, most are clueless on mechanical issues. Me, am just a grease monkey with many (50+) years of factory schooling, that allows me an advantage to this horse hockey nonsense.
As I mentioned, at 500,000 miles, rollin new rod & main bearings, at 1million miles do the inframe overhaul (that does not include cam bearings) then on making money for the owner. Sone may need to add the block stiffner (Girdle) at the 1 million mark if the engine is under heavy stress / loading a high % of time. Had obe installed on my ISM before I realized it only effected the million + mile engines, RV is not heavy use.
So again, please produce a Cummins Bulletin on cam bearings on the M11 series. The Cummins shops would love to read it. Thank you. Dave M
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: frozenh2o on May 23, 2014, 02:24:26 pm
Catfishbob, Would love to have you post a Cummins Bulletin that tells of the Cam Bearing issue at 800,000 miles.
Have been in touch with Cummins, they have no knowledge of the cam bearings being an issue.
I enjoy reading some of your statements, however some about engines surely produce the giggle factor.
Fully understand your being a sales type, most are clueless on mechanical issues. Me, am just a grease monkey with many (50+) years of factory schooling, that allows me an advantage to this horse hockey nonsense.
As I mentioned, at 500,000 miles, rollin new rod & main bearings, at 1million miles do the inframe overhaul (that does not include cam bearings) then on making money for the owner. Sone may need to add the block stiffner (Girdle) at the 1 million mark if the engine is under heavy stress / loading a high % of time. Had obe installed on my ISM before I realized it only effected the million + mile engines, RV is not heavy use.
So again, please produce a Cummins Bulletin on cam bearings on the M11 series. The Cummins shops would love to read it. Thank you. Dave M
You might want to start here Dave, looks like cam bearings might be a problem on the M11:
AERA/AERSCO AERA Technical Services Department 500 Coventry Lane, Suite 180 Crystal Lake IL 60014 Phone 888/324-2372 Fax 888/329-2372 TECHNICAL BULLETIN Model: L10 Liter: 10.0L V I N: Year: 85-90 December 2003 Mfg: CUMMINS TB 2125 Cam Bearing Bore Repair For Cummins 1985-2003 L10 & M11 Engines The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information on an alternative cam bearing bore repair for Cummins L10 & M11 engines. The recent availability of an oversize outside diameter cam bearing has been announced. This new bearing will allow a single repair operation to many engine blocks, which will allow them to be put back into service. These engines have been prone to engine failure related to cam bearing movement during engine operation. The cam bores generally were enlarged to a degree that sleeve installation in the affected bore was required. The standard cam bearing was then pressed back into the bore, in effect putting a sleeve inside a sleeve. In many instances, that process did not make a long lasting repair as many engines suffered subsequent failures. This new .170" (4.3 mm) wall thickness bearing combines both processes into one and should allow a reliable repair for many otherwise discarded blocks. This bearing combines the thickness of the Cummins supplied repair sleeve Part #3824894 and standard cam bearing Part # 3820566 into one component. This bearing has almost twice as much wall thickness as the standard cam bearing. To install this bearing, first determine a .0020-.0025" interference fit before align boring the camshaft housing bore. This bushing Part # MCB7025 is currently available from one aftermarket supplier. Please contact AERA Technical Services at 1/888-324-2372 for an update on aftermarket suppliers of this type bearing. The AERA Technical Committee Page 1 of 2 Reference:
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: amos.harrison on May 23, 2014, 06:00:05 pm
I would not consider a coach that has not been driven at least 5000 miles a year, with proof that oil, filter and coolant, etc. were done annually and the coach was exercised monthly. I have found very few owners willing to change oil and filter on the basis of time not mileage. So the driveline components just sit and rust during extended storage.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 23, 2014, 06:16:20 pm
Yes, Brett, I understand. I will purchase no motorhome without full and proper maintenance records. And a careful inspection by a qualified diesel mechanic.
Not to hijack my own thread, but . . . In terms of maintenance records, does this suggest that I should be looking for units for sale by private sellers, or will dealers often make records from the previous owner available? In a perfect world, I would find a Foretravel for sale by the original owner, it would have been stored inside, carefully maintained, and include all maintenance records from the time of purchase. I get the impression that this is more likely with Foretravel than with most other brands.
And, yes, I will reserve $10,000 to $15,000 for repairs or updates soon after purchase.
Thanks everyone!
Wayne
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 23, 2014, 06:20:43 pm
I would not consider a coach that has not been driven at least 5000 miles a year, with proof that oil, filter and coolant, etc. were done annually and the coach was exercised monthly. I have found very few owners willing to change oil and filter on the basis of time not mileage. So the driveline components just sit and rust during extended storage.
I was thinking 3000 miles per year minimum, but I'll go with your number. 5000 per year it is! Thanks!
Wayne
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: wolfe10 on May 23, 2014, 06:22:27 pm
Yes, Brett, I understand. I will purchase no motorhome without full and proper maintenance records. And a careful inspection by a qualified diesel mechanic.
Not to hijack my own thread, but . . . In terms of maintenance records, does this suggest that I should be looking for units for sale by private sellers, or will dealers often make records from the previous owner available? In a perfect world, I would find a Foretravel for sale by the original owner, it would have been stored inside, carefully maintained, and include all maintenance records from the time of purchase. I get the impression that this is more likely with Foretravel than with most other brands.
And, yes, I will reserve $10,000 to $15,000 for repairs or updates soon after purchase.
Thanks everyone!
Wayne
In an ideal world, yes you will get complete maintenance records. In the real world, that is pretty unlikely. I know-- I do a LOT of mechanical inspections.
So real world is that you will probably get some records (perhaps written, perhaps just dates on filters) and those along with a complete mechanical inspection will go a long way toward giving you a good window into the condition of the coach. Not a guarantee, but a pretty good indication.
And, if no maintenance records, but a clean bill of health insures that you have a long list of "better change all the fluids now, since we don't know their history". Again, not that unusual.
Bottom line, yes I would recommend paying more for one with complete records, but would not rule out one with sketchy ones.
Be aware that if an owner has one facility do their service work, they can have the service facility release the history to you.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 23, 2014, 06:31:11 pm
Thanks, Brett.
One thing I've noticed -- On several occasions, I've found statements (usually from dealers) stating that all fluids have been changed. A couple of thoughts, from my neophyte brain:
1) It seems to me an inspection of the oil (and perhaps other fluids) would give an indication of the condition of the engine. Is the dealer maybe trying to hide something? And,
2) I would prefer to change all fluids myself after purchase, so that I know for sure it was done and that quality fluids were used.
Am I being overly cautious?
Wayne
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: amos.harrison on May 23, 2014, 07:06:06 pm
You can make purchase conditional on analyses of engine oil, trans oil, diff'l oil and coolant, even same on gen.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 23, 2014, 07:18:20 pm
Wayne,
Smart to do it yourself. Another member paid to have all fluids changed including wheel bearings but found out some of the fluids were not changed. Was charged for them. Will let him speak about it if he cares to.
Pierce
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: wolfe10 on May 23, 2014, 07:29:10 pm
One thing I've noticed -- On several occasions, I've found statements (usually from dealers) stating that all fluids have been changed. A couple of thoughts, from my neophyte brain:
1) It seems to me an inspection of the oil (and perhaps other fluids) would give an indication of the condition of the engine. Is the dealer maybe trying to hide something? And,
2) I would prefer to change all fluids myself after purchase, so that I know for sure it was done and that quality fluids were used.
Am I being overly cautious?
Wayne
Actually, in most cases, no, they are not doing extra service work to hide anything-- I am sure there are exceptions.
In general, some quality dealers do not ASSUME that service work is up to date and pay service department to change all fluids.
Part of a quality inspection is to discuss with the buyer what things they are able and willing to do themselves and what they should pay a dealer to do. Also, whether something can be done within the next year or needs to be done before driving. Last month, inspected a coach with OAT-based coolant (a good thing), but someone had installed a coolant filter with SCA instead of a filter BLANK. So the engine coolant was contaminated. That needed to be addressed before driving back cross country to the buyers home.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: John S on May 23, 2014, 07:33:56 pm
I know in each of my coaches I have a book and record every gallon of fuel and every repair done and where and when and what and all the routine maintenance too. THe next owner of my 2000 did not want it so I kept it. Oh well there loss but they got a well maintained unit. I saw it was sold again a year later so I guess rving was not his thing.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Roland Begin on May 23, 2014, 07:50:10 pm
I keep a record and all paperwork regarding anything that is done to our coach. Did not have good service records when I purchased the coach. But whoever gets it after we are done will have all our service records. I believe it gives the buyer a "warm fuzzy" feeling to see that the unit was serviced properly. And then some folks could care less I suppose.
Roland
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 23, 2014, 08:18:24 pm
I have always kept records of all service I've had done to every vehicle I have owned. I even keep a log in each vehicle of all the fuel I've bought. A habit I picked up from my father.
Three years ago after I bought the present pickup truck, I sold a 1998 GMC 2500 that included records of everything that had happened to it since new, including all the gas purchased, including date, mileage, and cost.
Wayne
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Mountain Couple on May 23, 2014, 08:21:16 pm
Catfishbob, Would love to have you post a Cummins Bulletin that tells of the Cam Bearing issue at 800,000 miles.
Several mentions around the m11 rebuilding sites of if any thing is needed the cam bearings seem to be the weakest link.
Not a cummins bulletin. At least not that I know or care. You could call rincon truck service who is a cummins dealer in San Clemente, ca and ask for Craig and ask him about his comment to me, Bob Hulka, regarding the cam bearings?
I had customers write down things I talked about then shop and research what I told them then come back literally years later and purchase. Was one of the only way to sell a Foretravel versus the pretty other brands in those days was to educate them on power to weight ratios, ground clearance, lower center of gravity, white gel coat versus paint, a travel club, overall quality. I had Oshkosh print an engineering drawing of the ored chassis that was great fun to fold out as it was 6 feet or longer. Great things to point at.
Plus the 300 ataac cat got 10 mpg and would climb a six percent interstate grade at up to 90mph.
Dick and Judy engle bought a ored 18 months after we started talking and after taking delivery bought me a photo of their coach with a ranger pickup on a Demco car hauler and he wrote on the back that the coach went up cajon pass towing the ranger faster than the ranger would do it by itself.
Used to weigh the coaches prior to a show and post the weight slips in the coach so the customer would ask.
I may if time permits go into the truck rebuild sites where there were mentions of the cam bearing being a shorter service item than a full major rebuild item. Several mentions and Craig brought it up on his own.
Please call him. If necessary I will get his contact info for you?
He brought it up at the same time we were talking about the temp issues.
I understand you have long machinery experience.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 23, 2014, 08:53:20 pm
Several mentions around the m11 rebuilding sites of if any thing is needed the cam bearings seem to be the weakest link.
Google search showed a bulletin tb2125 from the engine builders association referring to the availability of over size cam bearings to replace the worn ones in l10 and m11 though 2003 model years. Caused block damage that otherwise required a block replacement
Two page bulletin.
Bob
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: wolfe10 on May 23, 2014, 09:30:21 pm
"Plus the 300 ataac cat got 10 mpg and would climb a six percent interstate grade at up to 90mph."
OK, assuming 34,000 GCW coach and toad (happens to be the weight for which I have data, to maintain 55 MPH on a 6% grade requires 402 HP AT THE REAR WHEELS! 90 MPH-- so far off the charts that it defies physics-- probably more than Dave's 12 cylinder DD. As a reference, 45 MPH only required 310 HP. and 35 MPH 218 HP. This from Caterpillar Corp's "Understanding Coach/RV Performance". To do only 80 MPH on FLAT GROUND requires 259 HP at the rear wheels ((likely all a 300 HP engine (flywheel rating) could do at the rear wheels)).
Perhaps the "at up to..." applies here.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 23, 2014, 09:51:33 pm
"Plus the 300 ataac cat got 10 mpg and would climb a six percent interstate grade at up to 90mph."
OK, assuming 34,000 GCW coach and toad (happens to be the weight for which I have data, to maintain 55 MPH on a 6% grade requires 402 HP AT THE REAR WHEELS! 90 MPH-- so far off the charts that it defies physics-- probably more than Dave's 12 cylinder DD. As a reference, 45 MPH only required 310 HP. and 35 MPH 218 HP. This from Caterpillar Corp's "Understanding Coach/RV Performance".
Perhaps the "at up to..." applies here.
A 1987-1989 GVF 36' ored weighed 21,000 pounds. Tiny box. On a 26,000 chassis. Actually rode somewhat poorly.
Used to switch the 250 "9r" tired ored shocks for the ored 300 shocks that Oshkosh has speced differently for the 10r tires on it.
A customer Chet Otting who owned a large fleet of garbage trucks heard this and laughed.
I asked hi if it did get 10mpg was he a buyer? He said yes.
Next week we took a in stock coach to the local fuel station and he filled the tank.
Drove up cajon pass at 65-70. No toad. Idled around for 1/2 hour. Drove back to Irvine and went back to the same gas station. 179 miles. 17.1 gallons of fuel.
His coach had a front water fill like I did a lot of as the water tank was right behind the grille. A hose fitting there allowed pulling head in to a source of water.
Was a man of his word. ,yes 21,000#. Filled water and fuel tank. These unicoaches are big tanks compared to an ored 300.
Favorite ride was to demo one and as we rode along talking and getting to highway speed they invariably commented that the coach was noisy. Told them to look at the speedo.
OMG we are at 85mph. Yea. ,keep the cruise on. Hardly lost a sale. No one wanted 40 mph up cajon oasis versus 80. On cruise. Left lane motorhome. Told them that many times.
Probably why the poster here with the 500hp upgrade REALLY likes his coach. Power to weight ratio. Zero to 60 in 30 seconds. No brake preload. Just floored.
Marquis was 40 seconds. ,40 mph up cajon.
Same exactly as a 91-92 marquis. Gvw and gvwr. 37,000 combined with the mandatory jeep Cherokee.
Same as my coach. Same feeling drive and rode. Exactly.
More body roll but not much.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 24, 2014, 08:55:05 am
The winner for horse hockey is the 90 mph up 6% grade and 10 mpg with the 300 ataac Scaterpillar in an thing the qualifies as a RV, my guess it would have to be under 6,000 lb to pull that off. Always love the Scatterpillar dreamers. Yes the 12V-71T with the MCI at 33,000 lb would do the 80mph on the 6%, but fuel mileage on a good day, flat road at 70 mph was 5.9 mpg, when it got pushed on mountains, I assure you it was under 1 mpg, all part of the big sandbox games and the results were the smiles. You have to smile sometimes, and have the memories too. Was a great time. Dave M
Foretravel sold lots of the sane exact coach. Hundreds. The 250 cat 3208 got nearly nine mpg the 300 worth its bigger taller tires got ten at 65-70.
We took Kay and bev Lyons 1987 36' 300 ataac trade in skiing in Colorado in dec 1988 and after freezing the tanks and catching cold I left telluride, Colorado at 7:30 am and needed to get out of the extreme cold. Drove nice until I got out of the ice then I opened it up. Had 13,000 mikes in it.
Drove from telluride to Costa Mesa, California straight through. 863 miles and crossed the Colorado river right at dark. Straight on #40 at 3,000 rpm redline gets almost exactly 90mph. Had the fuel gel out on the way to co. Btw. Not recommended. Do not do what I did. When I filled up the coach prior to the delivery of it to the next owners, the Woods, it got 8 mpg for that run.
Was never broken in by the Lyons. Would only run 2,800 rpm max when we left irvine.
I had no tow car in these days and a 21,000 pound actual weight 228" WB grand villa was so maneuverable it was not needed.
Coach would make a turn from a two lane street onto another without crossing the center line in the intersection. Did not have to wait for the intersection to clear at all.
Joe Broderick, my salesman said five years later that he finally ran across the woods and they wanted to thank me for the coach as I told them I had replaced the belts and completely serviced the coach and had put new batteries in the 18month old coach and promised them it would be right. They were newby's to rv'ing so I wanted to give them a checked out broken in rig. They had done nothing but oil changes on the coach for the next five years and 50k miles. Not even the belts other than tightening.
Mr b2 from Australia mentions the excellent mileage.
Personal friend still has an 87 300 in the austin, tx and it gets 9mpg with a tow car. Bet its still tight also. Small, light box.
My 97 m11 on one kansas run with no gen or aqua hot and no winds and 60-65 got 10mpg on a 700 mile leg. That's at 35,500 pounds.
Average as others have posted is 8mpg all around with the gen and aqua hot figured in that.
3208 300 743 pound feet torque did well in the oreds.
No slides, short, light box with tall tires.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 24, 2014, 09:03:12 am
Bob, Clearly my info from Cummins seems to be wrong for which I apologize for my wrong information on the cam bearings, will dig deeper into this issue for sure. Thanks Dave M
No problem. Read every forum I could find on m11 reliability after I bought one. Non issue for us in the miles we will ever use.
Cleo had 300k on the u280 I built for him before he gave it to his daughter who may be still driving it.
Had another 300k 3208 300 cat owner back then Pete and Robbie youngdahl. Never turned the motor off it seemed. Problems with the rare parts in the side drive radiator stuff was what he mentioned to me ten years later.
Bob
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: MR B2 on May 25, 2014, 01:50:43 am
I bought my Coach 1989 Grand Villa, 300 HP Cat, with 107200 miles on it, the hours are 2300 on the motor, For a
Diesel, Thats more or less, Just run in, Its nothing, out of the lifetime of the Diesel Motor and Gear Train,
Thats 4400 miles a year, So it hasnt been sitting around for too long, Fingers crossed,
Very low miles in 25 years, Means its been sitting for a long time, Inbuilt deteriation, surface Rust builds up, Start your motor and the rust chews out the seals, Permanent Caravan Park RV's, Dont buy one, It will give you grief,
Truck diesels here get well over a million miles before they are mechanically needing repair, It is a Truck chassis and motor, Oshkosh came here originally as Garbage compactor Trucks, They Had to be reliable,
I now have 110,000 miles up on it, Very pleased with it all round, Finding spares for it, Hahahahaha, Yeah, Hahahaha
Its nearly all Ford Bits or very close,, You need a Mechanic with a Brain, That bit your holding in your hand from the Grand Villa, ????????????
AHHH, Thats the same bit thats installed in a Volkswagon Kombi van, (Example only) But I think you get the Idea, Some thing else will fit it with the same part Number,
We have Decimal here, The Coach is all Imperial, We used to have Imperial, I grew up with it, Young salespeople
here, Think it is some Weird Yankee thread, Duhhhhhh, I always go for the old Blokes now, They do have some idea on Imperial threads,
When I started looking, 10 MPG on a 12 ton Truck, at 75 MPH, with a 300 HP Diesel Motor pushing it,
Your Dreaming, Hahahaahaha,
Around 4 MPG, you might be some where close, Diesels are noted for their Grunt, Not Economy,
But no, I am getting just over 14 MPG, At 100 KPH, (60 MPH) Thats our Maximum Speed limit for Heavy Trucks and Buses here, Coaches inclusive, Exceed it at your own Risk, Very Harsh Penaltys Apply, Including Seizure of your vehicle, You walk home, If you dont get jailed on the spot, Hoon Laws apply to all Vehicles, 45 Kays over any limit, Your vehicle is on a Tow Truck at your expense, Etc Etc,
But our Gallons are Bigger than yours, Hahahahahahaha, ( I couldnt resist that one,) So I go further, 3.8 litres US against 4.2 litres to a Gallon here, In OZ,
Economy is Excellent, My V8 GTS car only got 17 MPG, So there is no way I would complain about the Coachs Economy, Change your way of thinking, What actually do you have in a Foretravel, Looking past the Glitz and Shiny Bits,
You have a very Heavy Duty Military Style Truck Chassis, Oshkosh, Virtually Indestructible, With a Solid Power Train to Drive it,
Parts are easy to fix and repair, interchangeable with other trucks, If you know what your looking for,
On top of that you have a Shed, A very Robust Body Shell that was built to last with Solid Timber thruout,
As long as I keep my roof sealed, No water ingress, My Grand Villa will still be cruising down the highways in 50 years time, Safely, My motor Puffs a bit of white smoke, I think its just the injectors that need a clean, Its not enough for me to worry me,
There aren't many people likely to run up 500,000 Miles in a Foretravel, 50,000 Miles would be the average life time max on most individuals, For a Coach,
My motor came with some very Runny Thick Black Sludge that was at some time back in its dim dark past, Was OIL, I think, Hahahaha My V8 300 HP CAT Diesel motor doesnt wind over when starting, It just starts instantly when the key is turned, I cant believe it starts like it does, Instantly, Nothing else I own does,
If its belching black smoke, Has Clunks, Bangs, squeelling, (not fan Belts) or other strange noises coming from the motor or gear train, Walk away fast, Your looking at 20 Grand in repairs, And there are plenty of good Foretravels for sale out there, That dont require Repairs,
From my point of view, a 25 year old Coach needs at least 50,000 miles up on it to ensure all the internals of every thing has a bit of good wear and lubrication, Mechanically,
The Shed itself, well Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And how the PO treated and maintained it, And its obvious when you look at it, A POS, is still a POS, And you cant hide it in a Foretravel, It stands out, Look at a couple of different ones, You can see the difference, I drive up my drive a bit over idle, I can accelerate very easily, It will scorch away, My drive is 1 in 3 at the top, The Coach doesnt even know the hill is there, 450 feet of it,
I also heard some horror storys on the 3208 Motor, after getting onto the 3208 engine Forums, and reading extensively, They are exactly that, Horror storys, Nothing more than Storys, A few blew up, But every thing man made will break down eventually, A few down dont make them all faulty, Overall, They have a pretty good record for reliability,
My Two Cents worth, Hahahaha,
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: fouroureye on May 25, 2014, 09:13:48 am
Brian, Great Story and spot on. I had an 88 and loved it!
We called it Old Faithful! ^.^d
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 25, 2014, 12:19:04 pm
I bought my Coach 1989 Grand Villa, 300 HP Cat, with 107200 miles on it, the hours are 2300 on the motor,
Yes the mileage is very good.
The 1100 series cats previous to the 3208 were throwaway motors with a not good reputation. Not so the 3208's
Puff of smoke at a hard throttle input should go away in five seconds. Plus smoking at altitude.
There are four adjustments if memory serves me on the fuel system. Pretty easy stuff to tinker with.
Your fourteen mpg with an imperial gallon is excellent. Most here were driven harder because it wanted to go.
Third gear tops out at 60 full revs. Learned to downshift the trans and rev it hard in the mountains versus torque. Full revs was at 2950 rpm. Shame you get into so much trouble going past 60mph. Coaches low profile and top end hp Diesel engine loved high speeds. Cruise all day at full revs. Remember a trucker on a long uphill commenting about getting my coach on a hill till I passed him at around 80 so that he called out on the cb radio. "Grand villa, Whatca' running?" My reply was a 300 cat at 21,000 pounds. "Not fair."
So much fun because the cars and trucks would play with me in the hills figuring they were faster until I passed 80 then they would all drop behind. Slowly unwound the speedo cable till you finally backed off.
No gen or aqua hot to use fuel. Only the motor.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: danieljeff545 on May 25, 2014, 03:34:44 pm
I second Bob and Brian...our '89 ORED 3208T (171,000 on her) is getting 10-12 MPG on our trips to Florida from Michigan. I give a range because our last trip I had no speedo or cruise control. My foot was a little "heavy" in GA and OH lol...we love it! Jeff
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 25, 2014, 03:47:43 pm
I second Bob and Brian...our '89 ORED 3208T (171,000 on her) is getting 10-12 MPG on our trips to Florida from Michigan. I give a range because our last trip I had no speedo or cruise control. My foot was a little "heavy" in GA and OH lol...we love it! Jeff
Biggest issue was filling the tank. Learned to drop the air with the jacks down and extend the front jacks to max. Careful. Must be level area. Period.
Second is the liquida sloshing at lights. Coach rocks sitting at stops. If you are sensitive to things going on its noticeable.
Third is the bump steer as you go through dips. Evidenced by the steering wheel movement as the jacks are extended.
Most over steered the coach because of it.
Verify the ride height valves return to the exact ride height.
Spicer 710 needs the spool centered in the steering box then the Pittman arm remounted. Bench job. Its in the manual from Oshkosh. Three hour labor.
If its off center coach will sometimes dart to the edge of the road for no apparent reason. Was supposed to get done after the first three hours use. Most were not.
My m11 is gutless feeling on top end runout versus the 3208 and 555 cummins and even the 8.2 as far as the curves on a graph.
I bet the exhaust is the problem on mine. As everyone already has posted here.
Bob
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 25, 2014, 05:27:44 pm
My comments concerning the 3208 Cat is prior to about 1982 the3208 was popular in Ford F7000 trucks and had a terrible, while attending a Cat school at Peoria Ill, the comment was made that the issues on the 3208 WOULD be resolved. From my view point they were never a choice I would make having worked on them. Admitt the 3208 is the quickest starting engine I am aware of, no idea about the fuel burn, but still a smaller engine for this gear head. Oh, yes Cat considers them as throw away or did. Know the remans are available for big $$$$. Dave M
The 1100's were made in Ireland? Something like that. The 3208's were not sleeved as I remember them but factory remans were definately available. Field pumps were the biggest issue If any.
636 cu in 3208 versus 659 m11 versus a 852 two stroke 12v71 is no contest.
What was yours? 700hp? Had a few boys get there stick 8v's over 600 but one blew the blower off finally.
Like the rev better on the "v" engines for us gear heads.
Exception was the n14 cummins and the series 60 turned up in the original unicoach.
Cruise control high gear up a 13 percent grade.
The n14 was 444hp and 1850 torque in a 30k weight signature.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: MR B2 on May 26, 2014, 04:52:13 am
That 60 MPH in third gear is a real nuisance, Its just under clicking into top gear, so I have to go just a bit over to make top gear, 65 MPH, We get booked for one KPH over the limit, Revenue raising,
1800 revs at about 62 MPH in top gear, Its very cheap to run, Magic thing to drive, If it wasnt so big, I would drive it every where,
Top gear was a surprise for me, It was just slowly winding out in third, Then it dropped into top gear, The back went down and away it went, Hahahhaha, Up a long hill at about 5 degrees, WOW, This thing sure has some GRUNT and it goes as well,
70 - 75 would be a very good cruising speed on my G/V, It putts along nicely at that speed, I cant if I want to retain my licences, Here, You lose one, You lose the Lot, Truck, Car, Bike, Boat, Your walking, End of story,
Hahahaha, Cruise Control, Set it and forget it, As long as your under the limit,
I pull into the left slow lane on hills, Cars and trucks pull out to pass, They pull back in behind me at the top of the hill, Tsk Tsk Tsk, I havent slowed down have I, This thing does not run out of Puff on hills, Hahahaha, It accelerates up hills,
I do have a Lead Foot, Hahahaha,
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: MR B2 on May 29, 2014, 04:52:01 am
Thanks Bob,
I didnt know it could be adjusted, Thats a very easy fix. Now I know about it,
It only needs a smidgeon of adjustment to bring it down, Lower third gears top out, so it changes into top gear earlier,
That would solve it perfectly,
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Caflashbob on May 29, 2014, 09:55:39 am
I didnt know it could be adjusted, Thats a very easy fix. Now I know about it,
It only needs a smidgeon of adjustment to bring it down, Lower third gears top out, so it changes into top gear earlier,
That would solve it perfectly,
Hope it helps.
Rear axle would make noise under load and shimmeys in the front axle were the other fixes I used to have done.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: fredlewers on May 29, 2014, 11:08:59 am
FWIW, My coach is 30 years old. Been full timed most of its life. 287,374 miles. 7367 hours. 250 Hp Cat 3208T. I need to do a few things to it, including pull the wheels to look at the brakes & get new rubber. Engine smokes a little but starts right away. PO stated about 11mpg & he pulled a Jeep Grand Cherokee. This heavy class A gets better fuel economy & has better performance than our previous coach. It was a front engine gasser class C on a 1 ton chevy chassis. That thing drank like a sailor on shore leave!
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 29, 2014, 11:37:35 am
Dave,
The same smog stuff that killed the Detroit 2 cycle here in the U.S. Met several guys with CAT powered big rigs but they can't drive them in California.
I think CAT has a big interest in EMD, the manufacturer of the majority of locomotive diesels. Actually, just a modernized Detroit Diesel when EMD split from GM. 2 cycles with 710 cubic inches per cylinder (16 cylinders on most) vs 53, 71 or 92 but they look almost identical, just a Godzilla version. I recall they use 20 gallons per hour at idle and 200 gallons per hour pulling a train. Interesting that they can pass Tier IV emission requirements. http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/loco_index.jsp (http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/loco_index.jsp)
In Santa Barbara, the cement company had CATs in all their trucks but almost all had huge failures. The county FD also had them but must have been a different engine as they worked out pretty well.
Pierce
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: wolfe10 on May 29, 2014, 11:46:09 am
Actually, it was GOOD management to get out of the on-highway engine business. In fact, Caterpillar stock went up the day they announced it.
On-highway accounted for only a small percent of Caterpillar engine business-- unlike Cummins for example.
The cost to develop reliable systems to meet the 2010 EPA specs could not be justified by the small number of engines for that market. And unlike in the past when customers could spec any engine in any truck, the cost of developing emission equipment pretty well means "you want my truck", you will have a very limited number of engine choices. Not like the past-- ever watch "Ice Road Trucks"? Virtually every one of them had the yellow Caterpillar C15. And, looking back, of the two main engine builders, Cummins and Navistar, one got it right, Navistar was almost bankrupt by their decisions.
Are they gone forever-- don't know. But, they are already in a joint venture, building vocational trucks with Cat engines, someone else's injection/emission systems: Cat | On-Highway Truck | Caterpillar (http://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/by-industry/on-highway-truck.html)
Right now, Cummins is the only real game in town.
Title: Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 29, 2014, 12:36:38 pm