Oh boy. Took the MH in for service here in Tucson, shop has good reviews and liked what I saw.
Had them change the oil, find an air leak, and a few other items..Told them NOT to grease the brakes..
They called a few minutes ago to let us know they found the leak (going from 120-30 in 4 hours). When I had the step conversion done they capped off the air line-cap came undone... I spent 4 hours under in and around the coach, never looked.
Of course, Carol mentioned the brakes; yup, they greased em..Going to do the searches here but if anyone has a quick link on how to fix it would be appreciated.
Hopefully they can just add the correct lube. Have sent them Barry B's Meritor link...
Service writer also said all the Foretravels they service get greased... :( Interesting....
You will find lots of posts, they all say the same fix. Just regease them with the correct grease, which will force out the bad grease.
A little more complicated than just greasing the zirk with the correct grease until the correct grease comes out.
Yes, grease with the proper clay-based grease following the proper procedure so it is not OVER-greased which can lead to one pad staying in contact with the disk.
Best defense is to put plastic caps over the brake zirks AND be able to actually talk with the man doing the work, not just the service writer.
I had to have my brakes redone with a whole new tube. I had them totally purged till the new grease came out the other end. You can not just put more in and be ok.
Or you can put wire ties on the grease nipples like I did. When I thought I had the same problem I removed the nipples used to grease the calipers. There was no purple grease inside! So I was OK. Putting normal chassis grease in the automatic slack adjusters is OK. Just have to worry about the calipers which can get very hot and thus need a special grease.
I am wondering if the factory would have a sure way of preventing this wrong grease issue. Maybe a type of plug instead of a zerk which would require the removal and installation of a zerk before it could be greased.
Does anyone know where to buy a plug that would thread into the grease zerk?
Telling someone to not grease brakes, does little when the tech does not know the zerks are part of the brakes. They believe that brakes don't have grease fittings. Most think owners are ignorant about such things
The higher recommended the shop and the more competent & experienced the tech, the more they take pride in not missing any zerk fittings. They take their time to look all over and find those hidden zerks. So these shops offer little safety. One should expect techs to put chassis grease in brakes.
Our Meritor disk brakes are probably a rare item on vehicles, so few even know they exist, so when a tech says he knows something about them, they may not realize he has never seen one.
Removing and plugging the three zerk grease fittings on each wheel must be only way to protect the coach. This is no problem as brakes probably should only be lubricated every few years, maybe at the time of cleaning slide pins.
John, plugs would be either 1/8th or 1/4 inch NPT. Unless FOT used something else.
Richard B
Buy an extra set of zerk fittings same as on your coach. "Customize" the grease gun ends with a small hammer. Then replace your good zerks with the custom ones. Tell service writer to leave them alone or they will have to pay for total flush, your time, and correct grease. Alternative: Hang tags with instructions on custom zerks to leave them alone!!!
Great idea for those who do not do their own chassis lube , John and Dave.
Re: Brett's comment "A little more complicated than just greasing the zirk with the correct grease until the correct grease comes out."
After you grease the caliper with the correct clay grease (or flush the bad grease out with clay grease) you need to expell the excess grease from inside the caliper. If the excess grease is not expelled, the caliper can drag.
Per the Meritor manual:
1) Remove the caliper pressure fitting and pull (or remove) the slack adjuster pawl, then turn the slack adjuster screw and back the caliper all the way back. This will expell excess grease out of the pressure relief hole. I've done this and a fair amount of grease will come out.
2) Re-install the caliper pressure fitting and re-adjust the slack to spec.
3) Release (or re-install) the slack adjuster pawl.
And, they only need to be greased once or twice in the life of the brake pads-- this is NOT part of an annual lube job.
Jeff - Had the same thing happen to us at a Cummins in Tempe. Told them NOT to grease and they did. I only found out after I inspected the zerk fittings after some brake drag on the left front wheel and a fair amount of smoke. After talking to the Cummins Service manager he stated that the grease they use conforms to the Meritor specs. I got their grease part # and checked. It conforms to the heat and viscosity specs that Meritor requires. Should I believe them????? Having rear shoes installed on Thurs. of this week. I will ask them if they will purge, per above procedure using the Grade 1 lube. I will feel better, I think.
Jeff,
Print this out and give it to them. Stand over them and make them do it right. Seems to be yet another operation that never reads manuals or service bulletins!
Brake Maintenance [ForeForums Foretravel Motorcoach Wiki] (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=technical:brakes:maintenance)
Keith
Why not simply print off a bunch of cards with the pertinent information re: DO NOT GREASE MY BRAKES!! IF YOU DO YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR RECTIFYING YOUR MISTAKE. THE WRONG GREASE CAN CAUSE BRAKE FAILURE!!
While I still believe buying a Foretravel was a wise decision, the Meritor disk brakes have been my most frustrating aspect. The first time my brakes were greased, I didn't know better. The second time I specifically said to not grease the brakes, and they greased them anyway. Truck shops don't know about Meritor disk brakes, and don't care. After reading the posts here, I'm thinking virtually all Foretravels have had improperly serviced brakes at least once.
Still like the suggestion of putting dead plugs in place of the zirks.
Even of you threaten and tell them in writing not to grease them-- do you then crawl under to check???
Very easy to remove and install dead plugs.
Yes, that sounds like it might work. The first time when I didn't know better, the shop charged me to replace a caliper zerk that wasn't taking grease. Who knows, they might charge me to replace a plug where a zerk should be. These guys are fanatics about greasing everything... :) I'm going to change where I get service...
Sounds like having only places that know Foretravels is the way to go.
There lies the problem. When I first approached this shop (Detroit Diesel and Allison service center in Mpls) they assured me yes they work on motorhomes all the time. In fact they were doing an in-frame re-build on a Foretravel 6V92 when I toured the shop. I remember thinking, wow, this is my shop. I have learned to ask specifically about Meritor brake experience.
Printing a threat card won't work if they don't know those zerk's are on brakes, and we don't know they did it until long after leaving.
"I'm thinking virtually all Foretravels have had improperly serviced brakes at least once."
Main reason I started this thread. Be careful. I usually ask before service that i want a count on how many fittings they grease. I know the right answer; if different I want an explanation. Believe this is the first time I left the coach somewhere for service..That will teach me...Oh well, another of lifes learning experiences...
Had an appointment with Peterbuilt in Missoula, Mt. today. Meritor gave me their name as a "Certified" shop. Scheduled to have the rear pads replaced and the grease purged with the proper Grade #1 stuff. Talked the the tech that was going to do the deed. He seemed to understand the issues. He came to see me in the lounge and advised that the rear brakes looked almost new and did not need to be replaced. So - he purged the grade 2 lube with grade 1 per the maintenance instructions, put the wheels back on and I was gone. 1-1/4 hour charge. I will take a pic of the bill and send to my Cummins Friend in Mesa, AZ with a request for reimbursement. (Fat chance - but I will try) I will also attempt return the brake pad kit that I purchased - needlessly.
As the wourld turns. Wish I had a pit..... :D
I was at a cummins and there was a FT in the day before and I was coming in for a sticking brake. They fixed me up and I made sure they used the right grease. The tech came to talk to me and wanted to know why I wanted the expensive stuff as the other FT did not request it. I told him and he brought back the shop foreman and service manager. We talked about it and they bought a full case of mobile one synthetic for clay based grease so they would have it on hand and they pulled the other guy in and purged the brakes too. I bet cummins will be responsive.
Scott - where did you call to get the Meritor "certified" shop list?
Gayland - I called Meritor and talked to a brake Tech Rep. Chose Brakes in the phone menu and gave him the local tel. area code and he gave me a number of shops to contact that they sell parts to. I guess any shop can buy parts but I contacted a few in the area and questioned them about the brakes and made an appointment. Both Kenworth and Peterbuilt were listed. Funny that they did not give me that name and # of the local Cummins shop. Had to drive 100+/- miles each way but I feel better today.
Live and learn.
Okay, I'm might be very dumb. A year ago I got under my coach and greased everything with a zerk, including the breaks. I haven't noticed any problems in the 6000 miles + I've driven. What should I look out for?
David - You may not have any concerns at all. Incorrect lube may cause brake drag that might cause excessive heat causing rotor cracking and excessive pad wear that would require replacement - quite expensive.
The Grade 1 lube has specific upper and lower temp. specifications as well as viscosity characteristics. I understand many synthetic Grade 2 lubes will meet the Meritor requirements. Not having a high confidence level in the info that Cummins gave to me I opted to have the Meritor specified grade 1 lube purged and replaced with the the Meritor specified stuff.
I might have avoided our brake experience if I had "exercised" the brakes as described on this forum - but I am old, fat and I am not the sharpest tack in the box as well as not remembering the post that I read a year or so ago.
Note: One of our zerk fittings when purged produced little lube indicating that there was little lube in the caliper. So I guess that that in some sort of warped way this experience was a good thing. I certainly learned about our brake system.
Further Note: I did have the Tech put wire ties around each zerk fitting on the caliper. I am not sure if that will deter the next Tech but hopefully it might cause him to ask the question. "Should I pump grease into these fittings?"
I guess the greater issue is HOW to determin if a service provider is capable of Meritor brake inspection and maintenance. By merely asking questions, even what is perceived as the "right" questions, does not necessarily mean that the service provider knows how to do what to do.
I will again struggle with this issue when we next have the chassis lubed. :D
Scott - I go through Missoula every summer on my way to Eastern Washington so if I have no luck finding a shop here in Eastern North Dakota I'll maybe give them a try. I take it you were happy with them. Don't suppose you remember the name of the tech that worked on it? As noted in other posts, I've checked over the front brakes and they are fine, but my initial "crawling under to see what I can see" on the back I get the impression that I'm going to need new pads.
Gayland - Ray was the tech that worked on our coach - older guy with a gray beard. I believe Jim was the Service Mgr., not sure though. Peterbuilt in Missoula, 406-721-6100. Shop rate per hour - $103.00. Yes I was happy with them. Smaller shop but seem to be good. Unfortunately, I couldn't see much of the rear calipers from my vantage point - under the axle. Be aware that, as mentioned before on this forum, that the inner pads are thicker than the outer pads so they may appear to have worn more than they actually have.
I purchased the replacement pads from: Heavy Duty Truck Parts Online, Medium Duty, Light Duty - FinditParts (http://www.finditparts.com) . 1 set has 2 inner and 2 outer pads per Kit.
MERITOR KIT15625PM SHOE & LINING KIT $198.01 1 $198.01
I did verify the part # with FOT and checked availability & price. FOT has parts - price is double the price that I found. If the price was close I would have purchased from FOT as I would like to support Mother when feasible.
I am not a Meritor Brake guru but would suggest that you contact Meritor and request they share with you local service provirders and then question the service providers as to their experience with the 4M Air Brakes. These brakes have manual Slack Adjusters and not Automatic. I do not think that many techs these days have even seen our brakes let alone worked on them. The first guys I talked to and brought the coach to in Butte, said they worked on Meritor brakes and could change out the pads but could not. The tech I talked to knew the name Meritor but I found out they thought we had drum brakes and not fully air brakes even though I explecidely told them "Air Brakes with Manual Slack Adjusters". As you can imagine the shops are somewhat apprehensive about installing parts that they did not buy. Not only are they concerned about having the correct parts to perform the repair but they also loose margin on the parts them selves.
I tried to attach the Maintenance Manual for your review and files in this post but the file is too large. I downloaded the maintenance manual to my Droid phone and had it available for review with the service manager or tech if required.
Good luck - If you would like a copy of the Maint. Manual or chat, PM me with your phone #/email address.
Chassis grease in brakes. . . I think this is the thinking:
Brakes get hot and grease may not hold up.
Bigger problem is that greasing with wrong or correct grease requires a manual step that squeezes out excess new lubricant. And if not done, the brakes may not relax enough after taking foot off brake pedal causing the brake pads to rub on rotor.
Not related to greasing & zerks, another problem with brakes is when slide pins are not maintained and brakes hang on one of the two pins and pads operate at an angle or don't move like they should.
Barry -
I think that you are mostly correct. I would only add: After talkiing with the Tech Guy at Meritor, most grade 2 greases today will meet their high temp requirement but not their low temp requirement. Also the viscisity of grade 2 is thicker so it may not flow as well.
I'm no expert on this but I would first check the slide pins on the brakes and see if any of them are pushed in further than the others. If so, you will have to remove the wheels to look at the brake rotors and calipers themselves.
Another basic way of checking would be to use an infrared temperature gun and hit all the rotors after driving for awhile to see if any of them are hotter than the others. The dragging of the pads will obviously cause an increase in temperature on the rotor.
Or you could go pick up a 20 ton bottle jack, jack stands, extra 10 gallon air tank and the heavy duty 1/2" impact gun at Harbor Freight and get into the fun world of Meritor disk brake maintenance first hand. :P Note that the extra 10 gallon tank is necessary for the coach's air system to be able to supply enough volume for the impact wrench and even then you'll have to wait for the coach air system to bring the tank up to pressure after a few lug nuts. You will not be able to zip off all of the lug nuts like a Nascar pit crew. :)) That same coach air system will also allow you to raise and lower the 20 ton air jack though it will be like the lug nuts and there will be waiting involved.
Ahhh, the joys of coach maintenance. If you are extremely wealthy, ignore all of that and just take it to a shop and have them maintain it.
Easier to have a pancake compressor. I saw a couple of them plumbed into some coaches.
Thinking your going to have a disappointment trying to use the HD 1/2" air impact unless you can get the pressure up a fair amount AND use a larger dia. air hose with larger quick couplers. You need both Volume and Pressure, these air tools use large amounts.
I use a 3/4" HD air impact with the larger line, it works fine, but my 1/2" just cries with no results even with my 180 psi shop air & larger line. The lug nuts can be very tuff.
We remove the wheels annually, do extensive PM & snooping.
JMO
Dave M
Temp using an infrared gun would be a great indicator but one would only know the story by pulling the wheels and seeing what they say.
Will add to my annual check. Will need to find a nice forum member where we can visit for a few days. My PM & snooping list gets longer seems like every day. :D
I'm thinking John Haygarth could pay for his 3rd Foretravel if he rented out his pit to visiting Fofums...
I've actually had good results with this Harbor Freight model which said it was rated for 7-800 lb. ft of torque on the box-
1/2 in. Professional Air Impact Wrench (http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/impact-wrenches/12-in-professional-air-impact-wrench-68424.html)
so long as the shop that put the wheels on actually followed the *correct torque specifications* which IIRC are 550 lb. ft. If they didn't, like for example whoever last put the tires on when I bought the coach, you can kiss any chance of it working goodbye.
I just replaced the tires at Love's a few months ago and the tech used a torque wrench to set the values and I have had no problems removing the lug nuts with the HF 1/2" impact and an extra 10 gallon tank plumbed into the coaches air system through the line I use to fill the tires. It isn't the absolute fastest setup but I'm not going to carry around another compressor for the few times I need it. Not sure how long the HF wrench is going to last but I'm pretty impressed so far for about a hundred bucks and I didn't feel like ponying up for a $250 IR. My heavy duty Makita 18v impact wrench will not budge a lug nut due to maxing out at 350lb. ft. Too bad since it is very convenient.
I'm using a 3/8" 50' Flexzilla hose with 1/4" connectors. A 3/4" gun would probably make short work of the lug nuts if you have enough air.
Hi Michelle - It's so nice to hear your smiley voice in this thread. ;D We are having so much fun with our 1st FT. Can't imagine what it would be like with 2 or 3. :))