I know this post is long but please read! It's something you need to know. In spite of my "newbie" status I've been a Foretravel owner and full time rv'er for over 2 years.
After a recent visit to Foretravel of Texas for some much needed repairs to our 97 U320 I find myself greatly concerned about the quality of work being done at this facility.
I want to point out that we were passing through Nacogdoches at the time and had no appointment.We had several issues that needed to be addressed so we were prepared to wait as long as necessary. We ended up being at the facility for 7 weeks, so the following happened over a 7 week period between March 4th and April 23rd of 2014.
The first cause for concern was when they worked on my entry door. It needed a new seal and to be re-aligned so as not to rub on the frame when opened. The screen door also needed new screen installed. The shop completely removed both doors, replaced the seal and the screen and straightened the posilock arm, which they claimed was the cause of the scraping. By the next morning the door was scraping again, this time at the bottom, and the screen they installed was falling out. They of course corrected both of the issues, this time replacing the posilock arm with a new one. Both issues solved so on to the next thing.
(UPDATE 5/30: The posilock is apparently not adjusted properly because now my door will get stuck in the open position and I have to pull the handle several times to get it to release.)
Next Problem. My inverter, a Mastervolt unit I installed myself, was acting up and needed to be removed and sent back to Mastervolt to be replaced under warranty. I had the Foretravel guys remove the inverter, ship it, and re-install the new one.
After returning to my parking spot I decided to check out the new inverter to make sure the dip switch settings were set correctly. They were correct BUT the 110vac wiring was hooked up wrong. The black "hot" wires were hooked to the neutral position on the inverter and the white "neutral" wires hooked to the hot position. This was a dangerous situation, possibly energizing the motorhome framework! I went into the shop to complain and they sent a guy out to correct the situation. He apologized for "letting the new guy hook it up."
Now the big problem. Probably the main reason we stopped at FOT was because our motorhome was constantly "hissing" air from the area where the air dryer is located (left rear corner). Our air pressure would hold going down the road but would drop to 20-30psi shortly after turning the engine off. Our service writer, Joshua, summarized the problem on the work order correctly but after the tech diagnosed (supposedly) the problem the "correction" stated on my bill / work order was "serviced in July. Nothing at this time." (The "serviced in July" refers to the regular maintenance they had performed on the air dryer last July, the "nothing at this time" apparently meant that the unit was OK) I asked Joshua to have them check it again, stating that I knew there was a leak "in the area of the air dryer" because I could hear it...and I was losing air pressure very quickly. This time I stood in the work bay as they check out the area of the leak. A tech laid on the floor and looked at the air dryer as the motor was running. He came out from under the MH and said to another tech "the Halodex is hissing air but it doesn't seem to be enough
to cause a problem." So that was that. The work order / bill remained the same (Serviced in July. Nothing at this time.) I was charged nothing for the diagnosis / repair because no repair was made. (and arguably, no diagnosis) Keep in mind that we have been there for 7 weeks now and been told twice that our air system is OK, so we paid our $3100 bill and headed down the road. I drove all the way to the Alabama state line before stopping for a few hour nap. When I started the coach back up again there was no air pressure, it had all leaked down in that few hours, and it took quite a few minutes to build up air pressure again. I decided we would have to stop in Atlanta, Ga. at Apalachee RV, a trusted RV repair shop we had been to before, to get the air issue fixed. We didn't make it there! We lost all air pressure on I-85 in downtown Atlanta...in the middle of the road...with 60mph traffic trying to avoid us as we sat there, brakes locked! 3 nerve racking hours and $400 later we had been towed to Apalachee RV where they replaced our drive shaft, which had to be removed to tow us, and replaced the air dryer unit.Our MH now
holds air just fine. In fact, we have been parked in Virginia for 5 weeks now without starting the motor and the air gauges are reading 80psi as I'm looking at them right now!
You would think Foretravel of Texas would have some responsibility in all of this...at least the towing cost if not the drive shaft replacement, but no, not according to them. Mark Harvey, the service director, says that since they charged us nothing for the diagnosis/repair, they are not responsible. My opinion is that they sent me down the road in an unsafe coach and should compensate us in some way. To tell you the truth, the money is not the issue. The issue is that I can no longer depend on FOT to service my coach to any decent standard of competency, and that hurts!
My story doesn't end here however, I have more to relate to you. One morning I noticed my neighbor in the Foretravel parking lot had water on the ground surrounding his coach and had all of his basement doors open. I asked him what happened and he told me the shop had replaced his water filter for him and now his whole coach and basement were flooded! (I don't know the outcome of this but I hope they did something for him other than to tighten the fitting)
Not done yet...next neighbor. This one had the shop remove the motorcade numbers from the top front of his coach. He showed me where the solvent they used had run down his windshield and been left to dry on the windshield. Worse, it had run past the windshield and into his decals which were now curling up at the edges because of the solvent! He did complain of course but was told that for $6000 they would remove the decals and paint them back on! (Honestly, if they told me that I would have ended up
arrested before it was over)
OK, I'm done now. I know this comes as a shock to some of you die hard Foretravel Fans. I'm a die hard Foretravel guy too but the shop in Nacogdoches has become a big dissapointment. I swear that all the above is true and urge you to consider whether Foretravel of Texas is the sort of place you should be taking your coach. (on a side note, I do recommend Apalachee RV near Atlanta, Ga. Great folks!)
I hope you have taken this up with the top management at Foretravel. As a builder of low production, high end units reputation is everything. I would imagine that they would compensate you just to keep you happy.
Keith
Chazb11, What year and model do you have, would be helpful to all of us to know.
Your story is very unusual, have had FT's for 15 years and this is the only time I have heard of so many complaints from anyone person.
Call FT and speak with Greg Ameys, he is the head Honcho and if he knows of this he can guide you, if he does not know abut it he needs to.
Please let us know the outcome.
BTW, I am familiar with Aplachee and I would not take a dog cart to them for repairs of any kind, you hit a good day.
Gary B
Thank you Kieth. I have been unable to find contact info for any top management people at Foretravel so far. Mark Harvey, the service director, and my service writer, Joshua, seem to be ignoring my emails at this point. It feels like insult to injury.
Gary, My unit is a 1997 U320. I'm sorry to here you had a bad experience with Apalachee RV, they always treat us right and we have had no trouble with their work.
Sad to say that I have had similar experiences at FOT, albeit not any that left me stranded. I have found that this group seems to have FAR more collective expertise to solve coach problems than do the folks there. They couldn't fix my slide, nor even figure out why my porch light was on all the time.
Why I try hard to fix my own problems. I can't do all of them, though, but the ones I can't do I watch while someone else does them. If they don't let me watch, I either pull the work and go somewhere else or (if I'm stuck there) I make absolutely sure the work is done to my satisfaction before they get paid....
And I pay with a credit card!
Craig
Golly, Having had repairs at FOT, I find this to be amazing to the point of wondering what the rest of the story could be.
Most folks here know I had an issue about the campground fee's after an appointment that turned out to not have been made,(surprise to me), other wise all my dealings at FOT have been very satisfactory and reasonable by techs that seemed to know what is up.
Don't for get down the road is MOT, also have had great work done there.
Maybe I am just lucky ;D
Dave M
To be fair I would like to add that we also had our aquahot fixed on this same visit, with no issues...it's still working great! Also, Dave and the remodel crew installed a "new to us" passenger chair and did an outstanding job! Never had a problem with Dave and his crew.
Corey Rucker, Greg Amys
MOT for service, Xtreme for paint and body, Flanigan at FOT for mods, Ernie Eckberg for flooring
I do my own repairs as much as possible as have hit a few places that do not know what they are doing. I also had a bad feeling this year with my air dryer that FOT serviced 2 yrs ago. They put the check valve in reverse and I lost air, but not to your extent.
I feel that as most people who own RV's are not mechanically inclined or cannot physically do the work they are taken to the cleaners as "they do not know any better" and have generally a nice nest egg to be able to pay. Every time I go into any RV service place for a part etc I listen in to what some older couple is being told about their problem and how it will be fixed that I cringe and feel like jumping in to say "let me have a look as it seems very simple"
Yes, definitly Greg needs to know about this and any other issue of this kind. Word gets around fast. Maybe they have too much repair work and are getting very sloppy?
johnH
What would be a acceptable amount of dryer leak down in 7 days?
What should a do-it-yourself be checking on a regular basis?
Stopped in the middle of a highway; send shivers up my back. I had MOH service it last year's visit, however, after setting for couple months my air pressure is down. But not zero.
well over 7 days the average would be sitting at zero or there abouts( it is not Dryer leak it is tank leak). It says 2lb /hour or whatever.
This is a normal situation as it is very hard to get zero leaks. Mine over a week usually is at 50lbs but I have gone thru just about every valve and fitting checking.
regular maintenance to me means check battery status and all levels along with tyre pressures and leaks in the bodies/ mouldings. If you have one with millions of screws holding it together then 2 times a year check every one of them and tighten if possible. Check ext light fixtures for leaks around them and other than running it to excercise it that is it (I think)
JohnH
Chazzb11. I, too, am literally astounded. Your story and documentation are in such contrast to what I have experienced that it takes me a bit to comprehend. I agree, this needs to be brought to the attention of Cory Rucker, he is now the head man of operations there. I do not think your lack of an appointment has anything to do with the problems you have encountered. It's frightening and I would like to be aware of subsequent events.
I would be there to see and observe all the repairs. Building a relationship with the techs is always a good idea. This includes shaking hands with the top management.
I have been using FOT ever since MOT overcharged me on a service bill. I always try to watch what the techs are doing to my coach and always have the service manager close by with questions. So far I have had good experiences but to loose air and have to tow would be a deal breaker for me in going back to any shop for service. I know when I go there I always watch to see what techs are assigned to my coach. There are a couple I have to watch to ensure the job is done correctly. DAN
I know I had a bad experience with FOT and took my service work to MOT. I also have had a good experience recently at FOT and they did a great job this January for me.
I did send a letter to Lyle reed a few years ago, but he took it poorly. I will say a couple years ago they apologized and they did stand behind the work. So the answer to this is to send a letter to Cory Rucker. He has always been very fair and will make it right. I do know that FOT has lost some of their top techs over the last year but you need to talk with either Cory or Mark Harvey.
Thanks everyone for your comments and concern. I'll post again as soon as there is a resolution or at least something new to report. It seems that my bad experience is not that uncommon. :-(
I think it isn't so much a reflection on just Foretravel, but our workers in general. The level of pride isn't the same as it used to be, from my 65 year old perspective.
I have to agree. On the other hand it's up to management to set the tone and train the techs to ensure a quality experience. If poor workmanship is allowed without repercussion to the techs, FOT will soon lose its luster.
I can relate to the bad air drier problem, although when mine went out I was within a 1/4 mile of a rest area near Bozeman, MT. And these things always seem to go bad on a Sunday. I was able to contact a service truck out of Belgrade, (about six miles to the west on I-90) He disconnected the air lines and bypassed the air drier so that I could drive it back to their shop in Belgrade. They let me stay in their lot overnight and got me into the shop first thing Monday morning. They installed a new drier and the young guy noted that I had a leak at the flange inlet to the turbo, so he pulled that and welded on a new flange, steam cleaned the engine and I was on my way with no further problems, this was June of 2013.
This shop was very busy with over the road trucks and Class A's.
If you need help in this area their name is: Motorcoach Maintenance & Truck Repair of Montana Inc. (800)224-7689
Holy Mackerel! :o The whole reason we're looking at Foretravel products is to avoid situations like this....similar to ones we've had with our new SOB, but ours being with new construction. Is this a fluke? Should one purchase a "pre-owned" Foretravel figuring it is assembled properly, and then hope for the best with servicing? Go somewhere else for service?
Raleigh
Foretravels can be serviced by any competent truck shop. In Cincinnati I use Cummins Bridgeway for all my chassis work. They have also done a lot of coach work for me.
We have had excellent service, going above and beyond what was expected at BOTH FOT and MOT. We have also had less than stellar experiences at both locations. I have never had a problem having a fair and speedy resolution of any issue at either location. We have just had some service to our coach at a location here in Tucson ... locating an air leak that we could not locate ourselves. This shop has good reviews and let us know that they are familiar with and have performed work on Foretravels in their shop. Great! We added a few routine maintenance items to the list and made arrangements to leave it at their shop for them to work on. We also made specific note that they were NOT to touch the brakes! NO NO NO. Not in any way. Well, they found the air leak, and greased the brake fittings. What!! What part of DO NOT TOUCH did they not understand?? They have corrected the problem after calling Foretravel and getting specific instructions AND a complete Meritor Manual sent to them. Serviced Foretravels, indeed!! They garaged our coach over the holiday weekend, and Mr Wonderful went over on Tuesday to take them an extra tube of the correct brake lubricant. Upon entering the coach, which was now outside in their lot, he just knew something wasn't right. Our solar panels were not operating, the inverter was giving a funny signal, things were not as they should be. The generator started but then went to a default. He managed to get the engine started and gradually got things back online. But what gives??? Yeah ... they had it garaged all 3 day weekend ... with the inverter ON ... and not plugged in!! Ran our batteries down to near nothing. GRRRR. Supercalifragilisticexpialistupid. These guys are professionals??? There are guys working in EVERY shop who graduated last in their class, just as there are real mechanics and then there are parts changers. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances, I guess!
No apprenticeship programs, no technical school master's certificate with equal standing to a bachelor's degree may mean having the job done twice or more before it's done correctly. Tough to go from hanging in a Safeway parking lot to master mechanic.
Pierce
That is why I think it is important to learn as much as you can about the various systems, for self defense. I had a GREAT and HONEST shop that I stumbled across when I had my 1990 U280. They were in Corning, CA, somewhere I usually passed by yearly and could get my servicing. Same mechanics and same owners for years. But they eventually sold and closed.
There are many things I did not want to do to my coach, but there has been no one that I have found that cares as much as I do to do things right and efficiently. The common theme seems to be that if you can afford a Foretravel, well, we will expect that you can pay for whatever we might want to sell you. Then there's the attitude of "We don't know what's wrong, but we can throw parts at it..."
I ended up learning that my slide was nowhere near as complex as I had thought, and FOT's first diagnosis that there was nothing wrong with it (in 2007), was as bad as their last instruction to the mechanic at RNR that I should spend an extra $1500 for a completely unnecessary part (in 2013) that would have done NOTHING for the issue...yet it was what a "Star" mechanic at FOT told him to do.
Guidance from HWH with a $108 kit and $5 worth of steel caps gave me all the tools I needed to identify my real problem...a weak hydraulic cylinder caused by a Foretravel employee (of Texas or Tennessee, I don't know which) putting a couple of 1/4" self-tapping bolts literally into the walls of the slide mechanism. Repair cost was less than $200 once I found the issue, which really wasn't that hard to find, using the PROPER test procedures, most of which are even online at HWH! I had gone 6 years without using my slide because it wasn't working properly and I was afraid to put it out if even FOT couldn't figure it out. I finally got angry enough at the slide to take it on, and I'm tremendously pleased with HWH's help.
I spent a lot of time over this past winter digging into and fixing problems that should never have been. I didn't want to, but I had come to the conclusion that even spending money wasn't going to fix my problems, and it was going to take someone who really cared to solve them. Now my coach is enjoyable as a Foretravel should be. I still believe FT puts together the best coaches. Maybe if I lived in TX, I could go to Nac enough to learn which mechanics there actually know what they are doing. Short of that, I'm coming here!!!
Another reason I put the "pit" in, as I have saved thousands in other mechanics work and not had to drive to NAC which itself is time and money from here. Anyone who wants a trip to BC to fix a problem on their coach is welcome (within reason of course) and together with the online help of this bunch of friends on FoFum we will fix it for the cost of a few drinks and fun.
I think within reason we are as good as them but $100 an hour cheaper.
JohnH
Off subject a little, somewhere on the site I saw a bypass fitting assembly for the air dryer.I made one and carry it and think everyone should know how to bypass the dryer. very simple and could sure get a person out of a tight spot Larry
I think the lesson here is a quote from President Reagan, "Trust, but verify." We hire people to do work for us because we either can't do the work ourselves or would rather not. We assume that those we hire know their business and will do what they are supposed to do. Most of the time we are satisfied. If we can politely verify that the work has been properly done before we pay for the work everyone will be happier. If there is a problem with how the work was done it is easier to fix it before someone leaves, whether it is the customer driving off in the coach or the electrician that rewired the house.
No one is perfect, and no one always does perfect work, much less a large business with many employees. The real test is how well that business handles those errors. If the problem is promptly acknowledged and corrected the customer is more likely to be pleased than if it isn't addressed until some time later, for whatever reason.
We've not had any work done at any of the Foretravel businesses in Nac (yet) but that's coming up at some point. From what I saw when we visited there a couple of years ago, I'm expecting a pleasant, if expensive, visit.
Air Dryer Emergency Bypass Fitting (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=14739.msg86921#msg86921)
I think the loss of some of the senior techs is being felt. One left the RV side and moved. One retired. One became shop foreman. That is Alton and Hector retired and Bob Ireland moved away. I heard James went over to MOT as well. Talk to Cory and tell him your story.
DIY... I work on my own stuff for 2 reasons:
1. Nobody cares about my stuff as much as I do.
2. $$$
And when I do pay someone I verify. I try to watch other people fixing stuff when I can. They're going to educate me or entertain me, maybe both!
John, James is at MOT and been there for some time now. I was going to get fuel lines changed because you did, though I was getting them at MOT. James identified only the AH line needed done, others to engine fine, save the money. Glad to gave James work on mine, just as many others at MOT.
As for the post in this thread about air going to zero, I will interpret to mean when parked. after Mike Rodgers at MOT heard my concern about leak down, when I learned it should not have too, he correctly identified a check valve problem to the wet tank letting bleed back. New valve and I can can sit for weeks at 70 psi.
We started service at MOT because I had to buy an older coach and MOT carried those. That started me there and I have been very pleased with them or I would change. For our three years of RVing, we have had good outcomes at MOT on everything except an air system dust matter out of so many things done as repairs, annuals and upgrades. They try very hard and have good professional people in all areas. Not sure I would do Motorhome thing without them.
I have to think FOT tries just as hard. I hope we can help both companies do well, improving when they need. By the way, MOT has a new Service Manager.
When I decided to buy a 1995 vehicle as complicated as the Foretravel I accepted the fact that I better know, or be willing to learn as much as I could about the workings.
I also accepted the fact that many projects that I would like to do would have to wait till I spent time and money on tools and repair support here at home. Those expenses have certainly paid for them selves many times over.
I can't say I enjoy crawling around and aching for days after every project, or spending the time and money that I would much prefer to spend on the road on a trip, but this is what I bit off, and this is what the rule book calls for.
Fact is almost every mechanical repair I have hired somebody else to do on everything I own, has turned out to be a disappointment ( very rare I let somebody repair something) I almost always end up saying to myself that" I could have screwed that up myself and saved the money and time". I also know that when I travel I will feel MUCH better that I'm familiar with all the systems and could probably deal with most problems myself or direct somebody on the repair instead of helplessly waiting for them to learn and destroy on my dime.
When I tire of the coach I will give it to my Son and teach him how to maintain and repair it.
Lon, seems like you read, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance!
I have never taken any vehicle into a shop except for tires. I worked at several as a kid and know what goes on in many of them. I have seen too many steam cleaner plus pan gasket overhauls. Why do you think the "no one allow in shop because of insurance" signs are there? If I can't do it, it's not going to get done. Our U300 has already paid for itself and like above, I will give it to the kids when I'm too old to drive it or just park it for a guest cabin. No fool like an old fool and I'm proud to be one.
I like the "learn and destroy" comment above!
Pierce
Now ... this just boggles my mind. I can't imagine going this length of time without being able to put my slide out!! SIX YEARS???
Yup. Brought it home after Foretravel said they could find nothing wrong when at the factory in 1/2007. Put it out and in once at the house, and the pump motor overheated and had to be replaced. Replaced it and put it out again, then it would come back in about an inch short of flush. And stayed there. Would NOT come in. A couple of days later, the thing worked itself in a little, so I released the bladder and it came all the way in. I left it there. The "HWH Authorized service center" in Lake Havasu is afraid of Foretravel slides and will not work on them. So I used the coach with the slide in, until I was told that there was a Foretravel-trained mechanic in Spokane that could fix it. So I took it there in 2013 and he got it back into synch, added an unnecessary $200 part, and it still would not work correctly a day later.
It was only when my anger at not having the slide got high enough that I contacted HWH directly and they taught me how to do what Foretravel couldn't seem to do: Find the damage that had been done and determine which part or parts needed replacement so that my slide would work properly. And it does, now.
So far we have been able to dodge the Nac. bullet. Soon after we acquired our coach we went to Nac. to have a few small cracks in the roof repaired and a new coating put on. We also had the alignment checked and tweeked. We also asked them to look at the Zip Dee awning and was advised that it was a POS and not put another dime into it. They did , however, have a nice new automatic Girrard awning that they would sell me for about $6500.00. We did get our auto awning repaired for about $250.00. Overall we have been happy with the little amount of work that FOT have done. I did consult with them about our slide issues and was not really pleased with their answers/comments/suggestions. With the slide issue and FOT, I had to remind myself that 2002 was the only year that this HWH slide was used and most techs probably do not have a clue as to how it workes and how to properly diagnose issues. We followed Brad S. and his slide adventure and were able to resolve our issues as well. The diagnoses of our slide problem did take some time and am not sure if they, service centers, would/could be able to spend the time necessary to properly diagnose our issue and still make $$$$$.
I am always concerned about anyone twisting wrenches on our coach and it seems, like others have posted, that when we seek service/repair help from an "authorized service center", whatever that means, we are somewhat throwing dice as to who works on our equipment and what actual knowledge they have. Could be a great guy or not. I often feel that when approaching a service center they expect us to give them a blank check and let them do what they will. Certainly many posts here about that practice.
I am certainly sorry to hear stories about anyone not satisified with the service received especially our FOT.
Hopefully you will be able discuss your issues with the appropriate FOT authority and will find an amicable solution. I too will keep and eye on this thread.
This is why a shop has a service manager. The function of the service manager is to oversee the work being done by the mechanics, be available to those mechanics to provide his expert knowledge, and most importantly to review the mechanics work (aka doublecheck) before the vehicle leaves the shop. This is what FOT DOES NOT have. They have an excellent mechanic that holds the service managers title, (I've forgotten his name) but they do not allow him to act as service manager as I have described above. He has his own work bays and his own vehicles to work on which is a no no for a true service manager. (for exactly the reasons we are seeing). In short, FOT has no quality control because of this mismanagement.
Company's no longer have OJT programs to teach tech's the way they want it done, my father would not accept any excuse for not doing it the correct way, 46 years of Commercial Laundry Repair,our callback rate was less than 2%, most of the time it was apart failure, not a tech mistake.
Look at the qualifications (age) of the "service writers".
Tech cannot fix what he don't know is wrong.
A experienced Service Writer learns from the Mechanic's over a long period of time.
Coordination is a must !!
As Dave M says " just my opinion"
No Motorcycles in my past or in the future. I have always know what the outcome to that would be!
My roots are in high performance cars.
My first car, a 1966 Shelby GT350. tore that apart in High School and learned the hard way how to repair a car. A labor of love back then. I kept that car and bought a 1972 DeTomaso Pantera. I put 3 different engines in that car looking for the most performance. Learning all the time, mostly by my mistakes. A few Vettes followed, but never captured my interest.
I think I'm still a "points and condenser guy" at heart. I will always miss the simplicity of the old generation cars. When those broke down you could usually get it runnin somehow and get it home.
Now, its usually a call for a tow truck if the car stops running.
If I couldn't fix the Foretravel I would not own it. I would consider ONLY newer coaches and coaches that had a national network for service. I would also consider ONLY much simpler mechanics on a coach. No air brakes, Gas engine, propane furnace and hot water. When it started to fall apart I would sell it and buy a newer unit.
We had service done at FOT in Feb, 2013. Chassis lube, defrost not working, AquaHot not firing up. They told me the defrost controls were not working, electronics part failed and not available anymore. The vacuum pump wasn't working. They fixed (replaced) that and hardwired round the control that opens and closes the defrost baffles. The service tech showed me what what and where the issues were, what he was fixing, replacing, where it was, how to get the dash apart. That part was fine.
Aquahot was another issue. They said the main controller ($900) wasn't working and replaced it. They left me the "bad" part. The annual service was supposed to have been done, I paid for it. They said it worked, the water was hot. It was 90+degrees out so,I didn't run the Diesel option. Next day we left. At our first rest stop we discovered the step was out with the engine running and the door closed. Took me a while to find that they had folded over one of the air lines and tied it up with a cable tie. No reason for them to do that that I could figure out. They claimed they didn't do it. That night we tried the diesel option on the AH. It never fired. Several back and forths with Rudy Legett, a few phone calls and the diagnosis was that there was likely nothing wrong with the controller. Rudy linked me up with John Carrillo in Denver, and AH specialist. Several calls to Jeremey Rocha weren't too helpful. He wanted to send me to somebody in ABQ. In addition I discovered all sorts of soot in the basement where the AH is located as well as greasy finger and hand prints on the four bay doors that they had been in.
In Denver, John Carrillo tested the old controller and determined it was working fine. He put that one back in and then did a normal service. The spark generator was not working. Took about three minutes to do figure that out. He took out the burner, it was very dirty obviously never cleaned. The spark points were so far out of acceptable alignment that even if everything else had been right, it never would have started. John cleaned everything, replaced the fuel nozzle (dirty, not replaced) replaced the spark coil, set the points, reassembled all of it and started it up. Fired immediately. He ran it for about 5 minutes, shut it down and then cycled it (about 5 minutes per cycle) another half dozen times. Perfect. He spent about an hour and a half on it, charged me about $120 for the annual service and whatever the spark coil was.
Another half dozen or so emails and calls to Jeremey Rocha and Corry Rucker to get them to answer or return a call and for some sort of adjustment. They finally agreed to refund all of the charges related to the AH part of the service (almost $1000) if I would send back the new controller. I did and they sent me a check pretty promptly.
It was disappointing that all of this happened. I felt that the AH part of the service was very poorly done. In the end it cost me about 400 miles, 50 gallons of fuel and an extra day of campsite fees. What I got was a good lesson, test everything before you leave. Get all of the replaced parts. Get them to show you exactly what they did. Hope that they will do a good job but verify. If you are not happy with the work, speak up, work your way up the food chain, document what you asked them to do and what they said they did. Be prepared to tell them what you expect them to do to make it right. And it never helps to be unpleasant, yell at anyone or be unreasonable. Sometimes that is hard to do.
I didn't think much of their service writer, Joshua. He didn't seem to know much about anything. Seems to me that the service writer should be pretty close to an expert on everything.
My experience at Cummins and Allison in the Twin Cities has been very good. At Cummins the service manager spent about 20 minutes when they were done showing me exactly what had been done, where all the filters were including some that they did not work on.
Bottom line is that it is the people working on your coach that make it a good experience or not. You can make it better or worse too. Check everything, test everything, don't assume anything.
I will likely go back to FOT but will give MOT a try as well. My goal is to be able to understand how things work and try to fix whatever I can myself. Then If I screw up I can look in a mirror and scold myself. Something I do frequently. But I learn from my mistakes.
I have my tools with me all the time and some of the best help around right here.
Thanks,
Roger
Me too. It's why I bought a Jeep Wrangler, 1999 vintage. It's the only car we have that I can open the hood and see the spark plugs. All the others have to be partially (or mostly, even) disassembled to change the spark plugs.
Craig
These horror stories are why I got out of retail repair. Tired of being compared to the high school dropout with dollar store wrenches. Had management beat me up on my performance review because I was slower than the aforementioned butcher. But my ability to learn & diagnose & repair ANYTHING that rolled or towed in was irrelevant... As was my extremely low comeback rate. Leadership starts at the top! No societal unit (doesnt matter which unit) will exceed the standards espoused & pursued by the leadership. "Monkey see, monkey do"
"But my ability to learn & diagnose & repair ANYTHING that rolled or towed in was irrelevant... As was my extremely low comeback rate." Some of us seek out those places because we're tired of paying for three unneeded "repairs" before the real problem is identified and fixed. Of course, buying a well-cared-for high quality coach to start with helps.
I'm missing something here. I just had my infrequent contribution to the Nacogdoches Community Stimulus Fund a couple of months ago. Routine service plus an inspection of my old roof problem (it is OK). And then the usual surprise problems, part of the steering system was worn out, etc. Steve Flanigan found me a stove cover (supposedly an unavailable part). All in all, the usual fee for camping at Camp Foretravel, a grand a day. And everything went smoothly, I had to wait a few days as I was there sans appointment .
Now, is this the same place all of these mishaps are occurring?
Cory Rucker came by the coach one afternoon and we had a long discussion about the new coaches planned for the dealer in Dallas and about the service at FOT. James Triana, Mark Harvey (who drove my coach on a test drive after the steering gear repair) area all around. I just am shocked by these reports here. Am I just lucky?
I had both wind shields and gaskets replaced a year and half ago. Bob Ireland did the job. He repaired a problem that had caused the w/s shifting since I had the this coach. Also ground the proper clearance for the w/s, I had this coach 14 years. Good job, Bob, Foretravel. George.
Sadly Bob Ireland left a few months ago. He fixed my slide issue that nobody else could figure out. I will say that it is great that Alton is still there.
Appears this issue of FOT quality control is real. One of my good friends that owns SOB traveled from Baton Rouge to NAC to have work done on his coach. Maintenance and minor issues that have been lingering. He traveled the four+ hours to FOT because he was expecting quality work versus what is typically found at shops in and around our town. But he had to take the coach back because the tech caused a generator oil leak after changing the filter and oil.
He is not a happy camper nor am I. As his use of FOT was in part based on my word that they do good work.
I too had a poor experience at FOT maintance. Find it to be a poor example of quality if you have to watch over the people doing work for you that are supposed to be the best.
No one has mentioned the Service Surveys. Following every service appointment we receive a survey directly from the company president asking a number of pertinent questions about the just completed service experience. My visits have always been excellent, but what has happened when you mailed in surveys on poor service? Have you gotten immediate responses, or have your comments been ignored?
Members of this forum do a lot of business and send a lot of business to FOT. I have always been treated fairly and had excellent work done there. I will continue to take my motorhome there for service. However, like everyone else if you get an unsatisfactory visit then you look to other service places like MOT. Both are too busy. My concern for FOT is the call back time when you are on the road and need help immediately. MOT has someone you can talk to right then when you call. Not the case at FOT, they have to call you back as they never seem to have someone close to the phone for such a call and it may take 3 to 4 hours before they do call back and I have had two occasions where they never called. DAN
I just mailed one in. Did not receive poor service but there were a couple of issues I identified as needing improvement. Will post if I receive a response to my comments.
We have used both MOT and FOT for service and prefer them to any shop anywhere and any time. FOT is really my first choice, but MOT has great mechanics and super people. We appreciate both these locations BECAUSE you have the ability to see and speak with the guy who is actually working on your rig, and BECAUSE you are permitted access to the shop. We certainly do not feel that we have to stand over them and monitor their work, and we try to be considerate and cognizant of the working and safety considerations. We don't want to distract them or cause a problem. But the tutorials and knowledge we have gained from having these guys to talk with has been priceless. Some shops do not allow you to stick a toe into the work area. When that is the case, we head for another location. We almost never drop our coach off and leave it ... that has almost always been trouble.
I just had new tires installed on my coach and they forced me to get out of the coach, they said that Michelin wouldn't allow me to stay. I could go to the lounge or they let me sit in the shade on my Xip Dee chair. The coach was outside. Michelin later denied they had any input regarding dealer policies. So, the dealer lied. This business of keeping owners out of "the shop" may have come about over liability issues. When Cory Rucker was ombudsman at FOT he opened the shop up, realizing the importance of customer input and feedback.If I wasn't getting such a good deal from the FMCA advantage plan AND since the coach was stripped for storage, I would have told the tire dealer to just keep his tires and gone elsewhere. This is my "home" and the idea of leaving it in a shop unattended just doesn't seem logical to me.
Horace, Where did you get your tires?
The Tire Center in Kingsport, TN.
Dan said, "MOT has someone you can talk to right then when you call. Not the case at FOT, they have to call you back as they never seem to have someone close to the phone for such a call and it may take 3 to 4 hours before they do call back and I have had two occasions where they never called." It is my understanding that some of the Foretravel executives monitor this forum, so here is a suggestion for them. The idea actually is from a competitor, Newell.
Any Newell owner may call the factory 24/7/365 with their questions. If the person answering the call can't answer the question immediately they get a call-back number and within a fairly short time a person who IS able to answer the question calls back. This is true for the person who just bought the latest offering and for the one driving the oldest coach. There is no cost to the owners for this service. If Foretravel could do likewise it would certainly add quite a bit of value to our coaches. Yes, I suspect that the cost would have to be added into the cost of new coaches, and I don't know when Newell started the practice, but it might be something to think about.
Another possibility would be for this to start out as an optional (additional cost) benefit for Motorcade members. If we each kicked in, say, $10/year and Foretravel covered the rest, would that get it started? I realize there is more to it than just the cost, but maybe someone at Foretravel could play around with the idea and see if it makes sense.
Frankly, we, the members of this forum, have created dang near a 24/7/365 technical answering service...and usually the answers are correct...or at least can be hashed-out online among folks so that the reader can make his or her own decision as to who to follow.
It is my understanding, maybe incorrectly, that Foretravel used to have that sort of response. I know I was told "the old regime gave away too much and it got them into trouble" when I was there at FOT to have my endcaps dealt with in 2007.
However, having someone there giving answers 24/7/365 isn't really the issue. Getting the CORRECT answer is what is important and the point of several complaints in this thread, mine included, was that the correct answer/solution has not always been what has been presented from FOT. I have had no dealings with MOT, but that is not on purpose, just due to living so far away. I seldom seem to hear anything negative about them.
FOT really should appreciate this group. It adds tremendously to the value of its product in my estimation.
I had a conversation several years ago in a training center with some up & coming technicians. Gist of it is "The only significant difference between shops is the people"....
A tire machine changes tires. A competent tech can change tires on any equipment provided. As well as work on a variety of vehicle platforms, with any wrench that fits & transfers the torque. Alignment angles have the same definition whatever vehicle & shop you're working on/in.... What changes frequently & has the most dramatic effect in a shop is the people!
People make or break a company. The most innocuous event can have a tremendous impact on customer relationships. The janitor that puts down his broom to help a customer move groceries to a taxi. The VP that is observed cleaning a flooded bathroom. The driver that goes the extra mile can often make a routine customer a customer for life.
On the other hand, what a first time customer sees & experiences can turn them off a brand for life. So many managers have that mindset that every empty spot needs an employee. The wrong employee is worse than NO employee. Very few customers see the CEO, but they often see the people on the bottom rung & what they see in them has an ENORMOUS impact on the customer's perspective of the company.
Just sayin'
If it is true that some FOT people watch/read this forum/thread, it would be nice to hear from any one of them. I think the concerns voiced here are worth FOT's time and effort to investigate and act on. In my experience, in the world of Quality, for every one dissatisfied customer that voices a concern/complaint there are at least ten more out there that are dissatisfied that haven't voiced their concerns/complaints. Of course one might consider that in the big scheme of things the complaints registered with FOT might be considered "Minor" and require no action at all, in which case they may consider our opinions inconsequential. I would guess with 2500+ members on this forum I would think that FOT would be concerned about the perception that we have.
We might also consider that even though many of us get service work and repairs done there, and keep their bays fairly busy, FOT may not WANT our business due to the economics of that business.
FOT - MOT - where do I make my next service appt?
Any one out there?
[quote author=amos.harrison link=topic=21354.msg159769#msg159769
..........but what has happened when you mailed in surveys on poor service? Have you gotten immediate responses, or have your comments been ignored?.......
[/quote]
Did this twice.
First time was when D Flanagan would not correct a jackknife couch reconstruction that cost $2K and was clearly unacceptable (Steelcase rebuild kit w/new padding & FOT supplied fabric). The couch had/has a 3 inch gap between the two couch sections when it is opened and laying flat.
Second time was when carpet was soiled and then subsequently ruined in trying to clean it as well as an incorrect parts issue (expensive, unopened, incorrect parts, selected and supplied by FOT, would not be accepted back nor refunded because they were "electronic" parts.
Both service incidents were carefully documented in "Followup Surveys".......neither of the surveys were responded to in any manner visible to me.
Fool me once - my fault.
Fool me twice - our fault.
There probably won't be a third time because I won't go back as long as there is some other option available to me.
Neal
Brad & Christine,
We're with you ^.^d This forum is the reason we upgraded, its the reason we learn and contribute.
Thank You Foreforum ;D
Absolutely correct, in my opinion.
This forum (and very few like it) excels because the admins and the users understand its focus and so threads evolve into solutions with little or no "politics" involved. Even when there are conflicting ideas the solution is always the focus.
And solutions are what many businesses forget to focus on. If FOT is losing sight of that they need to learn what it is that their employees are focusing on instead.
Craig
I know this is a small matter but a few months ago when we purchased our first coach either I read or someone on the forum suggested I notify FOT of the change of ownership and give them our build # etc. I called the factory and spoke to a young lady who acted like I was stupid for calling her about this. She said she would take down the information and get it to the correct person(Iguess to get me off the phone). I never heard from them again?? Dick
Dick,
Call Beverly about the change of ownership. You can get a free year (remainder of this year anyway) membership in the Motorcade Club.
All,
Lots of folks have had great experiences at FOT and MOT and many have had some not so great experiences. I have had both.
If you have an issue with service quality or issues with call backs or people the only way to improve the outcome is to let the right people know about the issue and give them a chance to improve and make things right.
If you have had a great experience, let them know about that too.
Maybe someone can put together a list of names and phone numbers as a one stop reference point.
FOT and MOT are great resources for all of us. They both have a unique pool of experience from which to draw upon. You can get your oil changed at lots of places but for some, probably many issues, going to the source is best. We should expect and get the best service. We have a lot to say about how that is delivered.
Don't walk away from them, speak up and let them know that we expect better. No one wants poor service and no one wants to see either get in trouble because they didn't hear from their customers and take action.
Just my opinion,
Roger
"Maybe someone can put together a list of names and phone numbers as a one stop reference point." Roger, that would be a great help. Having the correct name and number would certainly help everyone. The last time I called the parts department the automated system said "If you want Sam dial 123; if you want Joe dial 456; if you want Clyde dial 789." I don't know or care which one I talk to - I want to order a part. I picked one and the system sent me to that person's voicemail. I eventually got a call back and got the part ordered, but if it makes a difference which one I talk to then the system ought to tell me what that difference is. Otherwise, there ought to be one number for parts, even if they have three or four lines. Whoever is closest to the phone answers it and takes the order. Of course, I don't like those automated phone systems anyway.
Also, why does Foretravel publish edresses for people who don't check their email?
I'd agree, but, as Neal says:
If Neal's experience is normal, then there IS an issue.
Roger,
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
But you are providing an FOT-enterprise-wide answer and I (albeit, not too clearly) was providing a narrow answer to a specific question from one FoFum member (Brett, AKA amos.harrison). Brett asked "................what has happened when you mailed in surveys on poor service? Have you gotten immediate responses, or have your comments been ignored?"
I answered, in essence, "I've tried it a couple of times and was ignored, so I probably won't try the survey route again."
Rereading my post (hastily assembled on an IPhone) I may well have left the impression that I wouldn't use FOT again for
any service. I didn't mean that and apologize if I came across that way. I just don't have any confidence that the "follow-up survey mechanism" is doing well in terms of customer feedback and customer satisfaction. It may well have some merits in-house, at FOT, but I can't see them from my vantage point as a customer.
I have explained in the past (and I cringe each time that I re-explain this, because it sounds pompous or less than genuine) but after years of blue collar mechanic and technician positions (that led to supervisory and management positions), I completed engineering degrees and moved on to engineering/operations management positions. That eventually led to executive management placing me in independent oversight and business analysis leadership functions. I've analyzed and then designed and led "turn-around" solutions for my own company's employees and for several other large utility companies, in any number of troubled situations.
Having been thoroughly enamored with Foretravel since before 1997 and an owner of our "First and Last Coach" since 1998 (and fully retired since 2000), I have taken (or perhaps devised is a better word) many opportunities to bend Ray Fore's, Paul Tinkle's, Lyle Reed's and Greg Amy's ear on business goals, business strategic and tactical analysis, quality analysis, quality assurance, root cause analysis, self assessment, product and personnel safety, teamwork in developing excellence, employee core values and work ethics, feedback, independent oversight, etc.
Because I love the brand so much, I have several times offered free consulting, especially when I was freshly retired and still all bright eyed and bushy tailed. I know that I don't have but a small fraction of all the possible answers, but I do know how to find the best answers from both inside and outside the company. And, I have a lot of passion for this type of analysis. I know that I could be of help.
Bottom line? No interest expressed. Not even the tiniest amount. I did experience some glazed eyes and defense posturing, but little else. Hope I don't bore you with all of this!
So getting back to your statement "
No one wants poor service and no one wants to see either get in trouble because they didn't hear from their customers and take action."
True. But, it needs to be
two way communications (and Actions)
.
For me,
two way communications (and Actions) have always been extremely easy to achieve with MOT and EXTREME, but nearly impossible to achieve with FOT, since 2004, and especially when something went wrong.
Now, before you jump all over this, I know that other FOT customers have not had poor experiences, nor lack of attention when called for, but it is abundantly clear that there is room for improvement.
Not all customers have had a uniformly positive experience.............and
that should be a FOT goal.
And, the next FOT goal, for every employee, should be: IF NOT, WHY NOT, AND WHAT CAN I/WE LEARN FROM THAT (and DO BETTER NEXT TIME)?
FWIW,
Neal
We have only had our recently purchased previously owned Foretravel serviced at FOT. From our service appointments I can give this opinion of the service problems. The service writers do not talk to the mechanics/technicians. The mechanics/technicians do not talk to the service writers. The service writers do not talk to their supervisors.
For example, we had the service writer write up that we would like our shocks absorbers checked for wear and leakage. If bad, we would like new ones installed. When our coach was completed it was at closing time and our paper work was forwarded to the cashier. At check out, the cashier asked if I had carefully read the work order and invoice. I said that I would read it later. She said OK and I paid the invoice and we left. That night, at a RV park down the road I read the work order and work performed. It said that a shock was leaking and they recommended that I replace the four rear shocks. No one told me. The cashier had read it and I should have paid more attention. I called FOT and talked to the service writer. He said that he had not read the work order and that the technician had not told him about the work needed. We returned to FOT and had new shocks installed. The supervisor service writer told me that it should not have happened, that both the service writer and technician were informed of the screw up. The supervisor service writer showed honest concern.
I have other examples. My answer for future work is to watch them like a hawk and ask a lot of questions about the work performed.
So. Can someone tell me the difference between getting work done in East LA or at FOT if such attention to what they do is deemed as required?
Excellent comments from Neal. Frankly, FOT appears to be frittering away the "capital" of its loyal customer base, filled with hundreds of folks with 80s, 90s, and 00s coaches that we love. If they just want to concentrate on building new $1.3M coaches and forget servicing our older-but-beloved coaches, then maybe they should just make it clear to us in a new mission statement and save folks the grief of sad service incidents.
I think it is a shame all these comments are not being addressed by FT management by way of this Forum by a simple message such as "We at Foretravel are extremely concerned by the comments and feelings exspressed here and we will immediatly take note of such, and impliment what needs to be done to bring confidence back to the Foretravel name. Please feel free to send your concerns to -------------.com and there will be an answer forthcoming both individually and to this very important Forum of Foretravel owners"
If this Forum is monitored like it should be, and a week or so goes by with no comment, then there could be real concern to us all that they really are not bothered by what we think, and that would be "a kick in the stomach". I would think that this Forum has been one of the main avenues for service and Renovation work at Nac', and many have bought into this Brand due to our comments and belief in the Fore name.
John H
Neal and everyone else,
I did call, many times, and worked my way up the food chain until someone paid attention and made things as right as they could. Nothing for my time, a 400 mile detour to get someone else to fix the problem. Cory Rucker did apologize for the misdiagnosis, replacing the wrong parts and for leaving my coach much dirtier than when it went in.
I also completed the service questionnaire repeating my experience. This got no response. They didn't even acknowledge that they received it.
I have owned my own businesses for nearly 40 years. My work depends on a close working relationship with my clients, trust, honesty and performance. With a relatively small customer base FOT cannot afford to lose a single client due to their own mismanagement of customer relationships, poor quality workmanship, lack of attention to detail and the one on one connection at the service door coming and going we all deserve and expect.
I take my coach to the Cummins NPower service center in St Paul. The service manager makes it his business to make sure they know what my concerns are when they start work, keeps me up to date on progress and will spend as much time as needed to show me and explain to me what was done when it work is done. I don't see a cashier who has no idea what is going on, the transaction is completed by the service manager. It is the reason I go back.
Here is the address I have for Cory Rucker. Positions may have changed.
I have sent him an email calling this topic to his attention.
Roger
Cory Rucker
Vice-President of Operations
Foretravel of Texas
936-564-8367 ext.181
800-955-6226
cory.rucker@foretravel.com
A post I started..."As of today (5/8/14) first available service is July 14th...That is crazy...Come on guys..Afraid to ask about remodel shop."
Really getting concerned FOT doesn't seem to put the $$ into training or hiring competent mechanics..
Here is an excerpt from a letter we sent to FOT following extensive service (60 items) on our new-to-us U320 purchased at FOT (not a consignment):
What was done well: We were impressed by Foretravel's willingness to correct so many problems with a used coach. Everyone was friendly and accessible - it was very helpful to interact with the technicians. The Tiffin factory service center is much the same but their appointment system is very difficult to work with. Newmar is a little different as the techs drive the coach to the service buildings and bring it back to your site. They do not allow customers in the service bays.
What could have been done better: The quality of the work varied by department. When there were failures, it was usually caused by an inexperienced person or they were rushed for time and failed to verify the work was done properly. This was more likely to happen on things Foretravel was paying for.
The company could do better on feedback to customers about what was done that day. It seems the service writers do not monitor progress very closely until the work orders go back to them at the end of the day. We did not hear from our service advisor often enough on progress/problems. Not a problem for a customer with a one or two day stay, but folks with a long list like us would appreciate a more proactive approach.
How does Foretravel's service compare: Better than a typical RV dealer, but not as good as other factory service centers we have used: Tiffin, Newmar, Freightliner, Cummins, and Allison. The paint shop and three expensive failures in the general repair shop dragged your rating down to below average.
The quality of the work performed:
1. The remodel department did the best overall job - everything was done on-time and the craftsmanship was excellent.
2. The fiberglass shop quality was very good and we thought the price was reasonable for the amount of work performed.
3. The paint shop was very sloppy. The actual paint work done was fine, but we had to clean up overspray on the drivers mirror and window, there was paint on the taillight bulbs because they did not protect them when the lenses were out. They also reversed the back-up and turn signal wiring. We had to take the coach back to have a stripe painted as it was left off. They also failed to notice a damaged refrigerator vent that should have been replaced before applying the roof sealer.
4. The chassis shop fixed the leaking steering box OK, but should have checked the rest of the suspension as it was obvious the tie rod end boots were badly deteriorated, the sockets were dry and needed replacement - which we would have been glad to pay for if we had known about it at the time.
5. The general repair shop had highs and lows. The large majority of jobs were done well but there were significant failures that could have been avoided. The items listed below were originally on or added to the PDI.
a.) Both front bearing seals were poorly repaired (job#11). The seals used were not the correct Stemco gaskets, too much red RTV sealer was used and they were loose and leaking oil by the time we drove the coach home to Florida. We paid $291 to have the job done correctly.
b.) The rusted-out generator tray was replaced - but they did not re-install the rubber vibration isolators. The vibration and noise inside the coach were very high afterwards and I was told by the tech it was normal. I explained the problem to the Power-Tech factory and they told me the isolators should have been put back in during reassembly. We spent $521(parts and labor) to have 4 isolators installed to solve the excessive vibration problem.
c.) The Aqua-Hot (job#37) failed the day after leaving Foretravel. Our Aqua-Hot dealer told us the shaft bearings were bad causing the blower motor to run too slowly and eventually overheat and fail. This should have been noticed by the tech at FOT who replaced the leaking fuel pump. Instead, he adjusted the fuel pump pressure to compensate for the slower rpm. Our cost to replace the bearings and blower motor was $657 + labor.
FOT never responded to the letter - guess they just don't care.
well, I will say that we had a terrible experience at FT and wrote to Lyle Reed. He commented back we were bad customers and said we come in with no appointment and were cheap. He said that they had to rob parts off an aquahot to fix mine. So my response was I do not know what bothers me more the fact that your people lie to you or that you can not read your repair order. If you look and I gave him the number it said replace aquahot it was 9900 dollars. Is that robbing parts. Oh and they could not find the ACs we had. So we had a little feud going for two years. They would not talk to us and while the guys in service were great (the remod shop) the whole place was failing. They got rid of Lyle as top dog and cory went to the head of service and he cleaned it up. I have had good service there the last few times and Alton has had the shop running very well. I think that they have had turn over though and that has hurt them. It takes a while to train a new person and unfortunately they have not put in a check procedure it seems. I think that this is an issue now for Cory to address. He does not need to do it publicly but he needs to check what is going on. I have had nothing but good things to say about remodel and they have gone above and beyond and have been on time and done right and for a fair price. I had my fuel lines changed and they did it on time and fair. SO I will say I have had good service there as recently as January but have had my share of poor service. The issue is that you need to talk to them about it and bring it to their attention. I know that they must read the return surveys but I do not think they have grasped that this is now an issue at least publicly.
+1 - John H.
A business is sometimes a funny place. What might be important/critical to some might appear to be insignificant to others. As the Director of Quality for a major steel company in the Chicago area, I had responsibility for all internal and external customer complaints and corrective actions. I would often shudder and shake my head when I issued my Quarterly Report of the Status of Corrective Actions to the Management Review Board and consistently Sales had the most unanswered and delinquent complaints. When brought to the attention of my boss, the Pres, he would shrug his shoulders and suggest that Sales had more important things to do than answer customer complaints. When our Registrar, UL, came in for their next Continuous Assessment of our Quality System this was a glaring Finding. The Pres looked at me and asked ME why Sales hadn't responded to the outstanding customer complaints. I could only remind the Pres. that HE hadn't directed Sales to complete their work because they had more important things to do. Play Golf, go to sporting events, go fishing, etc, etc.....with customers. And some of the execs. wondered why our customer base was dwindling and our profits were shrinking.
It is possible that FOT's upper management does not want to support us and our business.
I find this whole thread very disturbing................................. :-(
Bottom line? No interest expressed. Not even the tiniest amount. I did experience some glazed eyes and defense posturing, but little else. Hope I don't bore you with all of this!
East Texas. Only thing that I had results with was a lot of results. Then they paid attention a bit more.
Me too. I hope someone at FOT does get a look at it with an eye towards FIXING rather than DEFENDING the issues noted.
That little exchange makes me wonder whether they actually *did* "rob parts" to fix your Aquahot and then charged you for a new unit. Accusing a customer of being a "bad customer" is the most egregious failure of customer relations possible. Especially after they spent nearly $10k in repairs/replacements (whatever).
Makes me glad I can do most of my own work.
Craig
Well, they sold it as a new unit and gave me the core refund. The boiler unit that was sealed was leaking and there is no fix for that.
As Craig said " Makes me glad I do not depend on anyone to (within reason) to fix or improve anything" If I had to rely on the manufacturer I would not own any RV as it woul be too stressfull.
I make this next comment soley to give this item a "break" from the headlines, in a hope that FOT does do something about the problems mentioned in this Post and we get back to the "helping" rather than the "complaining" mode we are usually about.
Let's hold off on any further comments and see if they (FOT)do what is sorely needed, answer the "negative statements " mentioned here.
JohnH
Could they have "robbed" a boiler unit from another assembly and installed it into your device? It just seems strange that the head of their service department remembered you because they had to scavenge bits from one device to fix yours. Suspicious... to say the least.
Craig
Well it was a sealed unit and I saw the core afterwards. I think the service writer just lied to Lyle who believed him. He is not writing there anymore but I have to say that Cory fixed the place up. I also had great service there the last two times but it looks as though it is slipping.
I agree. But I also point out that we have just passed the 11th day of this thread being "out there" without any response to this group. I'll hold my breath just a little bit longer.
I live in California and have owned 4 Foretravels. One of my best friends is an ex-Foretravel mechanic who still works on high end coaches, (Prevost based chassis ) We do a lot of routine maintenance together, but I still make my bi-annual pilgrimage to Nac. In all these years I have never had an issue that couldn't be solved when brought to the attention of management. Cory, Drew, and Mark have always been responsive to my needs and any issues brought up while there. What I noticed about some of the posts blasting Foretravel is that the time of the alleged problem is not always clear. Old news to complain about won't get any changes done. What we as a forum and individuals need to do, is to be specific in our complaints and report if the issue has been solved to our satisfaction. I mentioned today to James Triana that Foretravel was getting a lot of bad press .He said that some of the complaints have been taken care of but the poster did not repost the intervention by Foretravel. If this is the case I urge any one that this may apply to, to repost. All of us want the best service from Foretravel and they do make mistakes, all service companies do. Others reading this forum may weigh the few negatives far more than the abundance of positives. That would be a shame and certainly in the long run effect you investments.
esaulten - Thank you for your comments. You are a long and loyal Foretravel owner.
With all due respect:
I think the point of this thread is that many here feel that service from FOT has been declining and needs improvement.
This statement is not intended to be a general statement about ALL departments or a general bashing of the Company.
It is evident that fellow FoFum members love their Foretravels and desperately want FOT to succeed.
I do not think members voicing criticisms expect FOT to provide perfect service.
I do not want my Foretravel to decline in value and do not want others reading this forum to get an overall negative impression of this brand.
In my opinion, FOT Management should address this basic concern and communicate with this forum in some objective meaningful way.
I would be pleased to assist in any way.
FWIW
Hopefully my Posting of this answer to my email to James T does not cause any problems for him. This was from yesterday.
Quote"
Jay
Thank you for your concerns and backing of Foretravel.
We are aware of the issue and have addressed the issue with Mr. Blevins. Said to say he never let the forum know we had been in contact.
We had lighting strikes last night and systems did not get up and running until 1500 today.
James Triana
Foretravel Motorcoach
end of quote.
Do not know were the Jay came from but still the answer is they do know of the problem and hope they get back to us all soon.
I do not think you will get him in trouble. The improvement in service over the last few years has been dramatic and this is why this got so much attention. We all have had issues with auto dealers and service appointments. The way they are resolved is the question.
I just want to let everyone know that this Forum IS DEFINITELY monitored by the folks at Foretravel. They are just smart enough to know that very probably any comment or explanation they try to make can (and will) be misconstrued by someone or other and wind up defeating their purpose. I just got off the phone after having Drew Pierce (VP of Operations) contact ME with regard to a comment I made about being upset after our failure to obtain a service appointment and then seeing a post that half the service bays were empty and guys were standing around. He was calling to let me know that they ARE ,in fact, booked out pretty far and are doing all they can to get caught up. In addition, he let me know that as a result of some of the comments they see here on this Forum procedures that HAD BEEN being discussed were brought to the front burner and implemented immediately. Namely, there are additional Quality Checks now in place in the Service Department ... Team Leaders have stamps and are required to sign off on all work orders with the Shop Foreman. That insures communication between parties! I know in the past, we have had an intermittent problem that refused to duplicate itself when we got to Nac. Instead of just changing out parts, the Techs took a look and could not definitively decide what was wrong. Once it was an air leak, another time is was something else ... but the bottom line is that instead of just throwing parts at the issue, Foretravel noted "Problem not found" on the work order. That can be frustrating when you go 100 miles down the road and the issue reasserts itself! They now will do their best to diagnose the issue and let the CUSTOMER decide whether or not to change out a part and avoid a possible return visit. That way, we are letting the more expert diagnosticians give us THEIR opinion and letting US decide whether or not we want to spend our money on a new part or roll the dice and make a trip back. I think that is a VERY fair way to stop assigning blame and have everyone responsible for the crapshoot that is Motor Coach repair!! There are probably very few psychic repair places ... and Foretravel has certainly never held itself out to be one! I surely appreciated the phone call from Drew ... and I more than understand the reluctance to actually jump on the Forum and post replies. A personal, one-to-one conversation is really the better way to clarify things when you are in their position. I am going to do a better job of scheduling my service appointments to avoid getting caught in a long wait time ... and I look forward to meeting the new mechanics who are in the process of being trained. There are SEVERAL ... and that is a huge job!!
Quote "I make this next comment soley to give this item a "break" from the headlines, in a hope that FOT does do something about the problems mentioned in this Post and we get back to the "helping" rather than the "complaining" mode we are usually about.
Let's hold off on any further comments and see if they (FOT)do what is sorely needed, answer the "negative statements " mentioned here." end of.
This was the basis of my comment previously to give them a chance to assure us that things are being looked into and any mistakes not repeated. I am feeling better about their ability to look after those that need their help in maintaining a safe and reliable coach.
John Haygarth ... I understood completely where you were coming from and what you were wanting to say. You have a very sane and reasonable take on things (even when you hit a big bump and break the hitch off of your toad!!). I quoted you because you posed the question about whether or not the folks at FOT monitor this Forum. The answer is YES!! I also know that I am not the only member that Drew contacted regarding this issue and the long wait times for Service. I wish the others would post their thoughts on the contact that was made by Foretravel reps in response to their posts! It appears that there is serious effort in progress to address several concerns that have been raised. Can't ask for more than that!!
Carol, what a memory re the hitch!!! My response was not meant to be other than to let people know as you noted, that FOT are beginning to respond, and to wait before any more is said from Group.
Take care guys.
John H
I am sure that they monitor it. I am happy they have adjusted too. We all want FT to succeed and stay strong. I know that there are numerous coaches bought after checking in here. On of the good things about this forum is the ability to post our negative issues. The good thing is that there are only a handful of threads on them and usually there is a response from FT. I also understand why they do not respond but I know they are aware and if they can make adjustments in policies that will reduce a recurrence, then we as owners win. I find this thread unusual in that just this Jan I told Alton: "Alton, I had never seen the shop running better".
Thanks for the update Carol on both threads.
I think that the people at Foretravel are always interested and concerned when there is an issue. We have had to enter into discussions with them at times, after service. Mr. Wonderful ALWAYS goes over our Service Order multiple times while our coach is IN the service bay (just to see what has been looked at) and checks the invoice line-by-line before we leave. In fact, once he was sure there was a rather large error on our invoice, but couldn't put his finger on what was wrong ... he just thought the bill was a lot LOWER than it should have been. We went over it in the Billing Office with Cory and Jeremy ... they assured us it was all correct. OK ... we paid and went on our way, but made sure they knew how they could find us. Sure enough, a few hours later I got a phone call. "Uh, Miz Savournin? This is Jeremy Rocha at Foretravel ...." One department had forgotten to add some labor hours to our bill, making it about $775 lighter than it should have been. Ha! We paid up over the phone and a few hours later a new serpentine belt that had been installed went bad!! Incorrect size had been handed out to the mechanic by the parts department! Foretravel paid to have a new belt installed at a Cummins location near our destination. Bread on the waters!! But ... we have NEVER had a situation at Foretravel that was not resolved to the satisfaction of all parties. Sometimes we just needed a bit of education to see their viewpoint, sometimes they adjusted in our favor. But it has ALWAYS been reasonable and polite and I have always felt that we get outstanding value for the cost of their service.
Quote Carol "But it has ALWAYS been reasonable and polite and I have always felt that we get outstanding value for the cost of their service."
Hopefully that is not quite what you meant to say (with all respect Carol), as to me if someone had made a major Billing mistake, even in my favour, and handed a part to a mechanic that was wrong and the mechanic had not checked the part to make sure it was correct, and later on the road you break down and have to go a Cummins Repair shop, (even though it was close to your parking spot) to install the right one. The inconvenience and initial worry would not in my opinion be classed as "outstanding value" even though FOT payed for the correct fix.
Sorry.
JohnH
Carol, Who is this Mr. Wonderful at FOT?
LOL. That would be her hubby, Mister Jeff, I believe.
Tom, I will get you for that comment... :)
To Royce & Denise ... Yes, Mr Wonderful IS my hubby, Jeff. He has EARNED the name, believe me. Replying to John Haygarth ... I can see how you might look at things that way, but it was a long time ago. The issue with the billing mistake that also coincided with the incorrect serpentine belt happened in 2008, I believe. In the years since, we have had many visits to the Factory. They have worked on our '93, our '95 and our present coach, the '02. I can remember hanging out in their parking lot for days while they tried and tried to track down an air leak ... unsuccessfully. We changed out a fitting or two, left for a week and came back with the same issue. Back into the shop for more looky loo. FINALLY, the culprit revealed itself. A bad fitting of some sort was replaced and all was well. AND ... we were happy to see that great allowances were made with regard to labor time for the final repair, since we had just spent a good amount of frustrating time the week before. I think that is very fair. Our '93 had seen some "creative" alterations to wiring and rigging of the dash AC. We watched 4 mechanics (including Alton and Hector) spend the better part of 2 DAYS trying to figure out what had been monkey-rigged and then restore it to a working system. We were aghast and mentally calculating massive labor hours!! But when the final bill was tallied it came to about 4 hours. This was also in 2008 ... and we were told,"Oh, well ... we can't charge you for trying to figure things out." Some years later I watched Alton and Bob Irelan scrutinize schematics and trace wires for hours deep inside the dash of our '95 (another creative rearrangement by some previous genius). I eventually wound up holding tools and flashlights for Bob as the day wound down. All was finally restored to the original plan, dash AC was restored by correcting the wiring, not replacing little motors deep in the dash in hopes that the easier solution was the right one. That all could have added up to BIG money ... but it did not. We were not charged for many of the hours spent. I have been in shops that stick you for every minute and round UP to the quarter hour according to their job time estimates. We have been at the mercy of urgent circumstances and really couldn't negotiate for kinder treatment. Our only recourse is to never return. We have arrived at FOT with an emergency and been finagled into the schedule ... while having a comfortable and secure place to stay while we waited. We have asked to be allowed to stay a bit longer during times of medical necessity and were graciously invited to remain as long as needed as their guests. We pay anyway ... by treating the Service Department to pizza at lunch and doughnuts in the morning. I know I sound like a somewhat tiresome FOT cheerleader ... but honestly ... I can be a relentless "witch" (spelling change optional) when I am not treated fairly or encounter real rudeness, incompetence or downright crookedness. I post reviews on consumer websites, write letters to anyone I think bears responsibility and generally make myself a nuisance, when I think it is warranted. If Foretravel had not earned a place in my good graces ... I wouldn't keep going back and I would let the world know why.
Good for them Carol, and maybe, had all this been explained my comment would have been different!! but given the info you posted before my reply I had only that to go on. Your problem seemed to be fairly recent by the intonation I read into it.
I do not have any beef with FOT personally and agree that it is a good outfit that makes a great coach, but if mention is not made when things are not correct (and you agree on this one) then they soon would join the rest of Coach Builders falling off the wall!!.
I do not expect, nor can they be perfect with the miriad of items that make up our coach's, just be honest and do the best they can. This is all we can ask for.
I have only had one time that things that did not get done correctly and as that mechanic is now not there I will not "talk behind his back"
Take care.
JohnH
"and we were told,"Oh, well ... we can't charge you for trying to figure things out." " The mark of a customer-centered service operation!
z
Funny... that's been my "MO" for decades. My customers pay me to know what I'm doing. If I have to learn a technique then I do that off the books.
I'm not a lawyer; I don't charge for research. :D
Craig
Ok, for fear that I putting out this post with not much to it, it seems a good place for me to ask and I think it has nothing to do with the original post. And yet it relates for me to the latest posts and costs.
Do shops charge by actual time or do they go by a schedule for labor for some particular task?
At FOT they told me that the labor would be x hours to do the air bags. As I recall, it was a fixed total cost. No one said that if if took more time then the labor would be higher.
(This goes in part to whether I pay for time to teach someone how to do a job, they take x+y hours)
To partly answer that one, a great deal of car/truck dealerships have a book that gives them a set time that a repair should take and usually go by that, but, having said that if there are unexpected problems with the job some may charge for the extra time. They do not usually tell you what time has been alotted for a certain repair-just in case, but may give you an expected timeline.
I would think places such as FOT etc charge by actuall time taken (but I stand to be corrected)!!
I personally would ask up front what time they EXPECT to take to fix the problem.
JohnH
My recollection is that they allot the time according to the "book" ... and whether they put one guy on the job or two guys, that is generally what you are charged. Sometimes it is less because things go well ... sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that cause additional labor time. We have had that happen, and someone from the shop will come to us and let us know the whys and whats before proceeding. Sometimes we THINK we know what needs repair (The framistan is making a noise when it contacts the widget.), but the actual issue is something a lot more complicated. Another discussion and labor time is calculated. I appreciate not having expensive surprises ... that is why we almost NEVER leave the coach and lose contact. On a slightly different note ... if you were having your coach serviced somewhere and spending a good bit of money ... where it was not easy or handy to have access to fresh water ... and you asked the location if they would be able to fill your water tank for you when someone had a little time ... would you expect to find a charge for $100 on your bill? Just curious. Happened to someone I know. He found the charge well after the fact (because he didn't go over his bill line by line) and was told that because he asked them to do it, he was charged. If he had done it himself it was free. $100!!!!! I am figuring shop time at $109 per hour ... 15 minutes of hooking up hose and unhooking hose ... Maybe $17 incl tax. Am I out of line?
I would be upset and as I was spending my money there I would have hoped they did it for free, or at least said " we are pretty busy right now and that will take one of our Techs 15 mins, so, if you do not mind that cost we will do it. Otherwise there is the tap and hose and feel free to help yourself"
I too agree that there must be a set time for all jobs especially as they know the product they built so pricing it would be easy before hand. I personally cannot see any reason for extra time, as I said, they built it!!
JohnH
Some things just can't be done with a flat-rate pricing. Consider tracking down and fixing an intermittent short or open circuit. The problem might be in the very first place you look, or it might be at the far end of the line. I would expect that I'd be charged more for the latter than the former.
My turn !
I had an issue with the dash air conditioning, erratic operation, so I pulled up my trousers and the FOT shop had a go at it. I was expecting 2 days labor, dash totally dissembled and find some expensive widget.
Oops ! Right off, they fetched the fella from the manufacturing shop, after discussing the issue for 10 seconds, he jumps into the dash thru the swing open door, started removing screws, electronic box's and laughed, found the issue right off, a wire connector had gotten shaky and the connection was erratic, he fixed it, end of problem.
that was about 2 yrs ago. So nice to watch someone who knows what they are doing. Oh he also showed/explained about the issue of the A/C compressor use when in the defrost mode, I thought it needed wired so it would work, is just a switch position. Total bill about $100.00
Other good experiences there including Wayne in the front end shop, steering gear leak etc, alignment.
Not complaining, just grinning.
Dave M
I consider that a Blatant rip off, Is that company still in business, Word of mouth like that, will put you out of business here, Very Quickly,
I live in a Tourist area, Lousy food from new Restaurants, They only last six months and are gone, Word of mouth, Kills them,
Same as bad service, They dont last long,
I have twice dealt with Foretravel, A windscreen and a Gas convertor for the Genny, All done over the phone,
Both times, Foretravel have gone out of their way to help me and get my parts to me,
Their service was excellent, And I am in Australia, These parts are totally unobtainable here, They just dont exist here,
hey Dave, I can go one better. 3 yrs ago I had an electrical issue with banks as there was no 12v coming from engine for computer to work. I was in mexico and had an auto electrician come over to look at it. He asked a few questions (he did not know what Banks was etc so I told him how it needs to sense power from engine) and he jumped down alonside engine with- get this one- a piece of wire , an old hacksaw blade with a bulb soldered to the end of it and proceeds to check a few things. A minute later the bulb lights up and he points to a wire. He bares the wire then connects it back up with a crimp connector and that is that--it works. he smiles, jumps out and tells me that is 10 pesos. I go "you must be kidding me" and he said no as you helped me!!! I give him 100 ($10) and he goes away very happy. See why I love Mexico and it's people? If you had your generator business there you could make at least $20 and hour!!!!!!
JohnH
Dave, could you explain a little more about the A/C and defrost switch position please.
Thanks, richard B
rbark,
Oh yes, I have suffered with the condensation on the windshield, turned on the defroster, expecting it to remove the moisture from the window, ZERO effect. Very disappointed, so next time in Nac, and with the erratic A/C I wanted the mechanic to wire it up so when in defrost, it would run the A/C compressor. OH, when the selector is in the defrost position, the A/C is NOT on, just back up one click, still defrost but with theA/C running. No more issues with condensation. Could never find a booklet that explains the different positions.
Thanks, David, if I ever have that problem I'll know what to do now.
Quote from: amos.harrison on June 08, 2014, 05:32:34 AM
...but what has happened when you mailed in surveys on poor service? Have you gotten immediate responses, or have your comments been ignored?
Update: Just received a survey followup call from Drew Pierce (VP of Operations). We discussed a couple of items identified on my survey. My conversation with Drew echoed Carol's in regards to appointments, quality checks and team lead sign-offs on work performed in various departments. Appears they are following up and do want to make improvements. I take that as a good sign and a good direction.