Looking to buy our first coach. Foretravel has been high on our list.
In considering all the factors involved in deciding on a make and model, the one feature that concerns me more than any other about Foretravel is the 10,000 watt diesel generator. My fear is that it is a poor match for our lifestyle and intended use of the coach. I wonder whether a coach with a smaller LP generator might not work better for us.
We have rarely camped in air conditioning weather. When we have, it has always been with hookups (or at high elevation where A/C wasn't needed anyway). I don't see that changing.
We boondock a lot in cool/cold weather and I need a generator to recharge batteries. But I expect battery charging would be a very light load for a 10,000 watt generator.
I don't mind exercising a generator regularly to keep it in good condition, but I worry that being almost always used for a very light load while camping would not be good for a diesel generator.
As much as I like the concept of Foretravel, I'm now leaning toward SOB due to concerns over the big diesel generator. Are my concerns unfounded?
Wayne
Well. Overkill is better than underkill. I think it is nice to never have to worry, even if trapped in a traffic backup overnight. Hit the button and everything you need will be available for such unplanned events. I haven't added a ton of hours to my 10k generator, but it sips fuel and happily gives me whatever I ask for.
Morning Wayne, How about using a small (2k,3k Honda gen) as a portable setup I have a 8k powertech diesel but consider it loud and obnoxious. I see the only issue with the Honda as being spare fuel at least in a diesel coach. I have considered removing the gen set from the front and replacing it with a Honda and maybe more battery capacity as I plan on going more solar in the future Im like you and don't like to camp in the blazing heat were ac is needed. It is amazing how quite the small Hondas are and how little fuel they sip. Just a thought.
Bill
I'm not too much concerned about the cost of fuel for running a generator for charging batteries. And, yes, I have a small portable Yamaha that I could use for that.
My fear is that I would ruin a good 10,000 watt diesel generator by virtually never running it above 20 or 25% capacity.
Are my fears unfounded?
Wayne
Consider the diesel gen is a safety device. .44 gallons an hour fuel consumption.
150-190 gallons fuel
Possible to run the gen after an alternator failure and the boost switch on to energize the engine battery powered devices.
Max legal lp capacity is much lower and at a gallon an hour you won't make it very long.
60 hours in the old Foretravels with lp gens versus 300-400 hours.
Air cooled lp gens are noisy.
Plus the 80 plus amps means a lot of reserve.
Could plug another coach into mine if the wiring was setup to do so. Wire in a 50 amp plug
No lp. No sob
Not all models of Foretravels have the 10Kw, check specs on:
Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:specs)
I see the U270's from 2000 back have the smaller 8Kw's.
Plus the older U225, and 240 models, 1995 and older have propane generators, due to the smaller shorter height bays.
As said, the power is nice when you need it, as you never always know what might happen. We got caught in Kansas City, in Jan. 10 degrees, blowing snowing gusts to 30 mph, on the Freightliner lot when they did not get the coach into scheduled repair during the day we had left it. That evening we fired up the generator, 3 ceramic space heaters, the 120v. hot water heater, the 2 wet bay cube heaters, and the electric blanket. After baking dinner and a movie, we had a nice warm night, and hot shower before we drove into the service bay at 6:45 AM.
I would not buy any SOB to get a smaller generator that I would use as little as we have used a generator in the last 3 years. The suggestion of buying a small Honda for battery charging make really good sense. Better yet is to plan to bake something when you are battery charging, an idea that we stole from Michelle.
I think your question is: "I worry that being almost always used for a very light load while camping would not be good for a diesel generator."
I do not know what load level or how much to run to allow the generator to be fully exercised. So I do not have an answer to your question. Maybe some knowledgeable fofum member can chime in on this.
We have a 10kw unit and every month or so we turn on the generator and the a/c units, unplugged from shore power, to exercise the gen set.
I agree with others that the 10kw power is great to have when needed.
One thing you have not considered is the loss of resale value of a unit without the correct sized generator. Could cause a prospective buyer to walk away.
Diesel is always better than propane and even gasoline. Better to have a proper sized unit for all needs as you never know if things will change.
You can simply turn on a few things to load up the unit when exercising it. That's what we do.
Keith
The weather guessers are talking about some severe storms coming through here tonight. I'm thinking that I may just unplug from the house and fire up the genny for the night. We wanted a diesel generator even though we don't plan to do a lot of boondocking. I do run the generator when going down the road so that the roof a/c units can keep the coach cool and the refrigerator cold.
Bingo!
I have never owned anything with a diesel engine. I have been told that running a diesel at very low load nearly all the time it is run is very bad for the engine. I do not want to ruin a good diesel engine by running it at very low load all the time.
Will running a diesel generator at 20% capacity or less, 95% of the time it is running, ruin the engine? Or did I get some bad information?
That's my question.
Wayne
For the answer to your question call the manufacturer. If it is a Powertech, call Powertech. If it is a Kohler, call Kohler. If it is an Onan, call Onan. If it is some of other brand, call SOB.
FWIW,
I would recommend that you not get different fuels for coach and generator. It is a PIA in my opinion to have to run someone down at a truck stop for propane. If I had a gas motorhome, I would want a gas generator and for the diesel motorhome a diesel generator. I had a SOB with a propane generator that we had to fill up on a regular basis as I live in Texas and we need to run the generator for the AC in the summer. Every stop for refueling took an extra 30 minutes or so (if they had propane and not that many do, which also is a PIA). Whereas with the diesel genset and engine fuel, it will have a lot of reserve for fuel (if I were to need to run the genset for days) if I were parked. Also one stop filling saves time and hassle. I like the diesel genset with the cummins engine. Best!
Here is an example of running a light load; 4cyl diesel (85 hp) idling 24 hours a day between 800 and 900 rpm. Rpm increased to 1400 every other day under full load. Sometimes left for days idling.
The engine is in a fishing vessel. A flash freezer was kept going, 9hp to start and about 3 hp when keeping temperature. This operation went on for over 15 years.
People said the engine would be ruined at the outset. The engine has had the valves adjusted once, a front seal, and a repaired injection pump due to bad fuel. The engine has 28,000 hours on it and is still running strong. For the last 4 years without a freezer I have run it 2300 RPM between sets all day long. And then it sits for 7 months!
Oh, and if one looks really hard, there is a tinge of smoke at full throttle. Good ole throw away suzzi 4bd1
You will be fine. You can charge your batteries and if you have aquahot you can use it on electric if your ignitor goes out in the cold too. You can also put the fridge on electric so it will have a load. I use mine less in the winter but more in the summer. I will say I go year round and I put the generator on at night sometime when it is really cold out. The batteries do not like it and it keeps the fuel warm too. Now the line to the engine is a different story but I have been out in below zeros and single digits many times. I have a 12.5 and it has over 3000 hours. Do not worry about the generator. Just run it once a month for a bit and you will have a great unit that will start on demand.
I've done a little digging myself via Google . . .
What I've heard is that running a diesel under a very light load can lead to a situation where the engine dies not reach its intended operating temperature and the fuel is not fully burned. The result is excess carbon buildup on all the vital parts, injectors, valves, pistons, rings. Bad things happen. I guess the vernacular term for this is "wet-stacking," because unburned fuel comes out the exhaust. It seems like this is a particular problem with diesel generators run at light loads.
Google also tells me that it is less likely in electronically-controlled diesels and in engines with a cooling system (which helps to keep the operating temp up a bit). I would hope that the diesel generators in Foretravels would possess these traits.
Says diesel engines like to be run at 75% of their intended load and that below this, there is risk of wet stacking. However, for a diesel generator, this does not translate into 75% of the generator capacity. Confusing.
Can someone educate me? How realistic a problem is this for a diesel generator in a Foretravel of 1997 to 2000 vintage? (Due to my requirements and budget, these are probably the model years I'm looking at.) How often would I have to give it a bigger load to prevent this problem? Other guidance?
Thanks!
Wayne
10K is not too much. If you are worried about low loads then just run the ac or heat pump or heat strips, the AquaHot 110v heater, battery chargers, engine block heater, refrigerator, ice maker, microwave, TVs, Stereos and all of the other stuff that runs on 110v.
Battery charging alone can be a pretty substantial load. If I am just running the Genset for its monthly exercise I add loads to get the total load up.
A substantial diesel generator is a good reason to buy a Foretravel.
Roger
You can also run stuff in your stick and brick house if you get hit with a storm.
I don't recall ever hearing of someone who had problems with their generator because they ran it with too little load. I'll venture to say many people, if not most, use their coach the way you are planning to. If there was a problem, you would find many threads on the subject in this forum and others.
You need to talk to Dave M. he will educate you on generators, he shoots straight from the hip.
Forrest (the 1997 Foretravel) does not get a lot of miles put on it so we have to exercise it every 30 days including the genset (8.0 KW Powertech with Isuzu diesel). During the 30 mile exercise run the genset is running with the roof A/C's running and as many appliances on as practicable. You can do the same just for exercise purposes. If I had the choice it would be a diesel operated genset over anyother type. Our experience with this PT unit has been excellent.
Wayne,
Someone has been giving you bad information.
The diesel generators Foretravel uses are 1800 rpm units. (you need 3600, 1800 or 1200 rpm to have 60Hz) After starting, they come up to their rated rpm and will warm to operating temperature quickly unless someone has removed the thermostat. 1800 rpm takes a fair amount of energy to overcome the internal friction so loading up or "wet stacking" is not an issue. Wet stacking was seen in sport fishermen with Detroit 2 cycle diesels. Once they got to their destination, they would troll at low speed and rpm so wet stacking was a possibility.
Propane generators do have certain advantages like quick starting at high altitudes in super cold weather but it's mostly a down side with them. The propane fuel they use has MUCH less energy (less than 90K btu/gallon, diesel is over 130K btu/gal) so they use much more fuel to do the same amount of work. If not vented properly, they can produce dangerous amounts of CO (carbon monoxide) while it would be hard to kill yourself with the amount of CO a diesel produces. They also don't last as long as a diesel generator and require more maintenance. A motorhome with a propane generator is not worth as much and has a more limited resale market. Having to consider fueling with diesel and propane both is a pain. Our propane tank lasts forever for cooking, fridge and the furnace.
We don't use ours much but do start it every week or so. It has about 1000 trouble free hours on it and I expect thousands of hours more. Exhaust pipe is always dry.
Pierce
My Foretravel mechanic mentioned replacing 7 sets of glow plugs for 7 owners that never preheated their gen motor. 20 years.
Never touched the diesel gens engines in the coach.
Motorhomes may well be a problem for youI think.
I held an accountants hand once as he was writing his comparison list on the coach types and finally told him that the diesel was a want.
If every single long term owner here has never had any issues with their variously used units I would think that I am not likely to use it so far different as to run into some kind of issue.
Hard to damage the entire coach in use. Walls do not fall off. Systems require maintenance always but the big parts are a million mile stuff....
It's interesting, I know some folks that are looking for a motorhome and they refuse to consider a DP because they smell and believe that mechanics are hard to come by. Would rather have a Ford V10 as it can be serviced just about anywhere.
I read that same thing on RV.net too. I laughed a bunch over it.
I've had LP and diesel gensets and have been happy with both. I can tell you there are very few choices for a diesel pusher with an LP genset - The early Safari models (like my 1997) are equipped that way not sure about others aside from some class B/C units.
I have driven but not owned any gas class A units (gas engine and genset) and did not care for the engine noise and handling. A diesel pusher is hard to beat. The genset is really a secondary consideration - get the coach you want first. I also used a Honda 2000 for battery charging (and microwave) when I full-timed in a fifth wheel and it was hard to beat for low noise and economical operation. That said, the Honda now resides at my daughter's place as a backup generator as it just was not worth the space to carry a second generator in any of the motorhomes we have owned.
I heard that there are people who refuse to install solar panels because they will suck the sun dry creating an "end of the world" scenario. :P
Craig
Yep--me too . Think I'll take another dumb pill . Brad Metzger
I believe there was a prominent person who said the wind power would create an imbalance in the atmospheric conditions creating climate disturbance...LOL :dance:
Where'd I put my hip waders? <grin>
Running a diesel engine on idle for ;ong extended periods, It will Glaze the Bores,
I had to sell my AS 400 welder for that reason, The electrodes I was using, Never even made it lift off Idle,
As long as it has some load, It wont be affected, A lot of diesel farming machinery runs for 3 weeks a year, Then sits in the barn for the rest of the year, With no harmfull effects,
We have the 10kw diesel genset and couldn't be happier. It has about 700 hours or so (really about 500 and a stuck fuel pump switch that I hadn't noticed until a couple hundred hours were added) and it starts and runs fine. Don't exercise it regularly and when I do I'm really pressed to load it since it produces 83 amps and I just don't have that much stuff. Having changed all I could to efficient electric stuff (read LEDs, etc.) the load just isn't there. Anyway, I think I had it on at the Brooksville rally in January and will probably run it in September when we get back on the road from a summertime project. The hardest thing I find with this genset is changing the air filter since it goes out the back and my hands and arms are to big to reach back there easily. Saying all this to say that I don't think the "exercising" is that big a deal and if it is, just be forewarned that when I go to sell our coach in 20-30 years the genset hasn't been exercised properly! :P
Drive in the summer and you will get to exercise it, especially in the south.
I live in central Texas and have no problem exercising my 10kw diesel generator. I use one ac a lot and both ac's many times nine months a year.
Most of our travel have been all over the west of the country so again it gets a lot of use.
Get the Foretravel (as opposed to SOB), and get the big diesel generator. In the long run, you'll be glad you did both.
Chris
I've traveled in the South a few times in the summertime. It's an experience I wish to minimize.
Actually, summertime is the season during which we figure to be traveling the least, except for a planned long trip to the maritime provinces of Canada.
We live in the Allegheny Highlands. On any given day, it is at least 10 to 20 degrees cooler here than where most of you live. And we don't do humidity. In the days before air conditioning, the privileged class of the South would escape the oppressive summer heat by flocking to the many resort hotels that were here once, usually in connection with mineral springs. We retired here from the Midwest due in large part to the pleasant climate here in the warm months. We plan to head south in winter.
My concern is that Foretravel generators were sized for running ACs in the sun and heat of Texas summers. Our camping will mostly be in the cool and the shade of the Allegheny mountains in spring and fall. Plus snowbirding South to escape the winter weather. (It's also 10 or 20 degrees cooler here in winter. ;) ) We don't figure to use the generator as hard as most of you. Not even close.
I've been doing a lot of reading on this "wet stacking" issue. One thing I've learned is that to run the diesel at the recommended 75% load to burn off unburned fuel and carbon, it is not necessary to load the generator to 75% of its capacity. I need to learn how much of a load it takes periodically to keep the diesel generator engine happy.
Wayne
If you want to load the gennie a bit in cool weather buy one or two of those "radiator" type oil-filled electric heaters. We like to take our '93 U225 cross-country skiing and usually stay at an RV park near the trails. We plug one in forward and put it between the driver and co-pilot seats and the other back aft in the bedroom. These don't "blow" hot air at you but they are very efficient at keeping a large space warm. (We also use them to keep the coach from freezing when stored at our shop.)
Two of these will load a gennie nicely for an hour in the morning while you use the microwave for breakfast and cut that early morning chill, too.
Craig
I agree with many here that you are concerned about a non-issue. We too are only in the South in the winter, spending the summer on Cape Cod. We have rarely used the generator to provide A/C. Instead, we have used it for peace of mind and the occasional night of boondocking. It has come in handy when we've had power outages either in RV parks or at the cottage. If you have any load at all, genny speed is elevated and wet stacking is not going to happen. Since you would not run the generator if you had shore power, the generator would always have load from 110v demand.
Wayne
I can't tell from your posts if you have previous experience with RVing in general or not. You may be better served with a nice travel trailer or 5th wheel altogether as they are much simpler and cheaper to maintain than a diesel motorhome and may serve your needs better. Its all a tradeoff.
Hmmm, and give up a lot in comfort and convenience
I live by the skyline drive. It is cooler up here then in the city by about ten degrees but I like to travel in the summer too. If you leave the coach packed up and ready to go you just have to throw a few things in and head out. I have been up in New England where they say no AC is needed but they got a heat wave and the power in the park dropped. Nice to have the generator. I think this is a none issue.
Wayne, it sure appears you are readng things that are not as serious as your thinking, without experience the wet stacking sounds serious, but in the real world a simple solution IF it were to ever happen. Do not drive your self crazy over a non issue.
I hghly suggest a simpler no frills setup. In the end, you gotta do what makes you happy, at one time a tent was a palace for me. Glad those days are only a memory. :o
Dave M
Dave,
The reason I started this thread was to give you good folks a chance to convince me that this would not be a serious issue when (not if) I use the generator for little more than charging the batteries on my extended fishing trips in the mountains in the spring and fall. You all have done a good job of persuading me that it will not be a big problem.
Robert,
We've had a travel trailer for many years. A small portable generator for a few hours every other day keeps the 2 golf-cart batteries charged when boondocking.
A fifth wheel is not a good option for us.
Somewhere along the way, I got old. I want the comfort and convenience of a motorhome. An older high-end coach appeals to me. Foretravel appeals because of the quality and durability. It also has large tanks for boondocking, which will be one of the principal uses.
Wayne
It is great too boondocks. We can go two weeks on our tanks if we are careful and maybe a bit more. depending on how hot it is. I also added a fourth battery and there is room for a 5th in my coach. I had 4 in my 270 and that was a boon docking machine.
Wayne - With all Due respect - I do not think that any one on this site wishes to convince you of any thing or should they/we. We can only offer our experiences and opinions. And you know what they say about opinions - every one has one. This web site is a wonderful place to ask questions and often get multiple answers.
On another note: If you wish to have a DP it will probably have a diesel gen set. I appreciate that you have heard not so good stuff about diesel gen sets and you are struggling to learn enough about them to make your own decision and that's a good thing.
This forum is largely populated by passionate owners and most of us feel that the Foretravel is the best option for us for many reasons. Many of these reasons are reflected in posts and threads on this web site.
I wish you good luck in your journey. ;D
Wayne -
You are on the right track - pull FT over, hit the button twice - levels itself. Aquahot and a bunch of other stud nice, i you want to Bdock, add some solar.
Yup, best value today is a 1999 or 98 non-slde U-320 40 or 42 footer. Have someone like Bret Wolfe do a pre-purchase, budget $10K first year to fix stuff (it won't be that much if you don't need batteries and tires) and enjoy. If you want a slide coach, buy what your budget allows - but I like the 2000 and 2001 for reliability and value (no, mine isn't for sale) James Triana (FT tech rep/VP) was asked at last Gran Vention which used FT he would buy, he didn't hesitate - 2001 U-320 42' with a tag.
Any 36 - 42' FT will make you happy. Have mechanicals checked, and don't worry after that. Search the archives here and you can maybe find two issues with motor or transmission issues, and the only generator issue you see is agina fuel lines and occasionally an alternator. Really, the mechanical cost/upkeep is very low, and rusty bulkheads are about the only structural issue that we see and the great majority of them need less than $2,000 to fix what may be going on (if you hire it done, cheaper if you do it yourself)
Feel free to PM me to discuss, you are absolutely on the right track, and if you buy the 95- 2001 era coaches, they will retain a lot of their value for the next 5 years.
Good luck, let me know how I can help!
There were only 2 issues with the 2002s, and you won't have to have the front end re-done because the lights are too low to see at night like the earlier years. The two issues are endcap cracking that has likely been repaired (and easy to see by looking at the junctions of the sides and ends). No cracks? Test passed.
The second issue can be the front slide. But this is really just an inability for some repair folks, surprisingly including FOT, to not seem to understand the system that was used for one year on Foretravels, and also on some Country Coaches. A $108 Isolation Kit available from HWH and 4 steel caps at your local hydraulic/plumbing shop for about $6 and you have everything you need to identify any slide problem particular to a 2002...and what is really necessary instead of guessing. The slide problems are magnified only when apparently ill-trained folks start throwing expensive parts at the slide. You can check this problem on a prospective coach by having the seller extend the slide and then hanging around for 30 minutes to an hour. If the slide creeps in at any corner, then you can get all concerned and get a dropped price. Then go buy the aforementioned kit and follow the file Scott and I created to see what the problem really is. There are only two likely culprits (one or the other), and each one is less than a $200 repair at HWH. Send in the part and have whichever rebuilt. It is NOT hard to do with one helper for the worst of the problems.
Tim,
I've got a well-considered list of what we're looking for in a motorhome. Since I haven't found one that has everything as we would design it, or prefer it (not even Foretravel! ;) D) ), there are lots of tradeoffs involved.
Since we will travel a lot on unpaved Forest Service roads in the mountains, 36' seems about the right length. Shorter, and I worry about the ride and highway handling of a diesel with a too-short wheelbase. Longer could get more problematic in tight corners on narrow mountain roads. I might go 40' if everything else was right, but I'm more comfortable with 36'.
Dual pane windows are a must-have due to condensation in cold weather. 1997 seems to be the first year that Foretravel included this as standard. I'm not sure how common they were before then.
A 1997 to 2000 or so Foretravel, assuming a floor plan that would work for us, would seem to fit within an amount I feel comfortable taking out of retirement savings.
We would feel better having no slide for simplicity sake, but can live with a slide or two.
Wayne
For the record my 34 foot rode no different then my 36.
Our longest car is one third the wheelbase of our U300 but rides well, actually very well indeed. Come on! It's the right combination of shocks and airbags plus first rate engineering that makes for a good ride and handling regardless of length.
Pierce
As far as Forest Service roads go, I drove 30 foot fire trucks over many a back country road on campaign fires and didn't think much about it. With our U300, the extra 6 feet and 102" inches makes a big difference on the tight turns/switchbacks. We also go down a lot of unpaved FS roads to campsites. At 40 feet, the anxiety factor would go way up. I can see a RV newbie getting into trouble pretty easily.
Pierce
Back to the original thread subject.....
I needed a generator to run some water wells around here if/when the electricity went out, so I had long discussions with a generator designer to decide what I needed. I wanted a generator to run the pumps, but also, as long as I was at it, have a generator I could plug into the house. Finally settled on a small, four-cylinder Lombardini diesel and hung a 30 KW generator end on it. Way more generator capacity than the motor could produce, but big enough to start the various motors around which had high Locked Rotor Amp starting loads. It puts out around 11.5 KW. Wet stacking was discussed, and, according to the engine manufacturer, if run for long periods, the engine would need about a minimum 30% load to keep it from happening. So, I wired the thing up for both 240 and 120 volts, and carry around two of those 1500-watt resistance heaters. That's a total of 3KW if I need it. If I'm concerned about the load or lack thereof, I simply plug in one or two of those heaters. It doesn't increase the fuel burn very much at all, and keeps the engine happy. It will also start two central AC compressor units. ;D
Raleigh
If you have a compressor or electric motor with a high inrush amperage, buy one of these and install on compressor or motor - Unlike a hard start which will reduce start duration but not appreciable reduce the LRA, these Hyper Soft starts reduce Inrush amps by at least 60% - i.e. a compressor with a LRA of 100 amps will be reduced to an inrush of 40 AMPS or less.
We are selling a lot of them for just this reason, the ability to use a much smaller genet than would other wise be required to handle these loads which often represent the single largest requirement when you size a standby generator.
Also helpful if your lights dim when your well pump or compressor kicks on - solves that problem as well.
Here is link with technical information:
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz/#!downloads/c1wld)
I do love my Kubota-Onan.