Have been looking for a Foretravel for awhile now. Seems there are very few in the north east most seem to be out texas way. Found a very nice 2001 Country Coach Magna close to home. I think it would work for us. It is also priced 30k lower than 01 FTs I know this is a FT forum and everyone will steer that way but was just wondering.
Country Coaches are very nice and well built coaches, especially around that age. When we were looking, CC was on our short list until I decided outboard air bags, all wheel disc brakes, and a transmission retarder were must haves. Keep in mind that CC is no longer in business, so don't expect much in the way of factory support (but I believe some factory like support is still to be had). The Magna is a good model, the high end models are very Foretravel-like.
Foretravels are around. and not just in Texas. I would keep looking. I found mine in Southern California.
Hi Mike. I think a few people here have owned both Country Coach and Foretravel, so you might get some good answers. One thing to check is what the CC sold for new and what a similar FT sold for new. That will help you to make sure you are comparing competing coaches. A used Chevy will sell for less than the same age Cadillac, but the Cadillac sold for a lot more than the Chevy did when they were both new. We almost fell into that trap ourselves.
CC was mentioned to us several times as a high quality coach, but when I researched them I found that they were no longer being made and there was some sort of feud about the name going on. That was enough for us to strike them from our list. The feud may be resolved now, but they still were out of business for some time. There may well be some quality issues from the years before they went under, so be sure to do your research.
I just called Foretravel and ordered a pulley I needed because they knew the EXACT part I needed. They shipped it same day. You can't do that with CC.
There is a foretravel in New Jersey if you need to see one
I will add one thing. CC went downhill after it was sold to national RV. In 02 CC Monaco and FT were the short list. I decided after looking at the quality that CC was not built as well any longer. You will get an earful at MOT if you talk to the service techs who work on them. There are coaches out there but if you get a great deal even if it is mot a FT.
I have worked on many country coaches and high end monacos, and that is why I own a foretravel
I decided a long time ago that I needed (actually really wanted) a Foretravel, and so I took the time and we drove the distance (from Ohio to Arizona) to get the one that's perfect for us. I remain extremely glad I did.
My recommendation (not surprisingly) is to keep shopping and wait until you find the right Foretravel!
I was looking at a couple of Country Coaches that I liked a lot but after some research decided to keep my old FT. The deciding factor was this forum as well as factory parts and tech support. Keep looking you may have to travel a little but it will be well worth it. Just my opinion but 99-01 Foretravels are about as good as it gets for the money.
Mike,
You can talk yourself into "settling" for almost anything, or you can decide on what you want and then do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal. There are so many factors involved in buying a motor home that it MUST be a individual decision. Only you know what is important, and what you can get along without.
The three most important things we learned when shopping for our Foretravel:
1. Do the research, decide what you want, and be honest with yourself about what you can afford.
2. Have the cash (and/or financing) lined up ahead of time, so you can jump on the "right" coach when it becomes available.
3. Realize you MAY have to travel cross-country to get the one you want - many on this forum have done that.
"1. Do the research, decide what you want, and be honest with yourself about what you can afford. 2. Have the cash (and/or financing) lined up ahead of time, so you can jump on the "right" coach when it becomes available." These two really belong together. As Chuck says, do your research well ahead of time, and you will not only know what you want and need, but how much it will cost, too. Get for finances ready and go shopping.
"3. Realize you MAY have to travel cross-country to get the one you want - many on this forum have done that." Plan on a cross-country trip, but don't forget coaches that might be fairly close to you. Our list included one coach 300 miles away, a couple 500 miles away, and a couple nearly 1000 miles away. We started with the close one and never went any farther.
Many people say the shopping part can take up to a year, depending on how flexible you are. Some people find the right coach almost immediately. Plan on spending some time on the telephone and on your computer before making some travel plans, and plan on making at least one trip to see the wrong coach.
Spend time with Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:specs) to help you narrow down features and floor plans. And, of course, ask here for advice. We love to help people spend their money! <grin>
CC was also on our short list. I believe they also have a pretty active forum. We met a Magna owner a couple of years ago who told us when we changed MHs we would probably get a CC. He stated that the documents were second to none. He felt the build quality was better than FT and listed many things. They showed us 3 - 3 ring binders full of drawings and other technical data. It was impressive.
We are glad we found our FT for many of the reasons stated above and more. If/when we get another coach we will search for a FT first.
When we decided that we could not afford the FT we wanted and were ready to settle for a SOB we found ours In Las Cruces. Who'd of thunk it.
Check out Used RV List Service: buy, sell used RVs, homes, houses, boats, motorhomes, (http://www.nationalmultilist.com/find_rv.php)
Lots of Foretravels on their listings
Having worked on a 2005 Magna a fair bit I have to agree that they are well layed out. The manuals are excellent, much better than ours.
Quality of materials is good too, and I like the easy placement of filters etc that are the most important regular item to need access to.
Very high on my list is the frame-solid.
JohnH
Have just looked at that RV online listing section and figure most have been trying for years as those prices are way out of line. I think I will put mine on it for $110k as it is way better and has many-many updates than most shown.
johnH
Hi Mike, I have zip for experience with CC and only 2700 miles (trip home from MOT) with my Foretravel.
I will say from reading and looking, CC , Foretravel, and Beaver were on my short list. The list got shorter when looking very carefully. CC and Foretravel were left.
I do not know how well jake and or pac brakes work going down the mountains leave alone emergency braking when your cut off or need to stop but I would bet all on the brakes and transmission retarder Foretravel motor homes are equipped with. The retarder works with the service brakes.
The retarder was a deal sealer. The drive-ability of this machine seems to melt 400 miles to a hundred.
But I did not drive a CC. I am very pleased with my purchase and 'am not wondering what a retarder might have been like. Tom
Mike
The DW and I looked for close to a year before pulling the trigger on our '98 U320 which we found 1300 miles from home. After the purchase we commented to each other how we missed the search. We spent many hours looking at web sites, comparing units along w/ discussing the different amenities each one offered or went missing. It was so much fun. Take your time and enjoy the process. You'll find the right FT. In the end you'll be glad you didn't settle for less.
BTW, the transmission retarder is such a value. We've had a few occasions where if we hadn't had it, a serious accident would have occurred.
B&J
Some friends of mine looked at Foretravel but got a CC from MOT. They seem happy with their purchase as before they had an allegro bus by tiffin. They hated the tiffin as it had just too many squeaks and rattles they could not get rid of. I know they seem to have problems getting parts in on time. They have their service done at FOT. The CC 40ft with tag seems to be a heavy coach. The problem is (as stated) that you always wonder if the other one was better. I have a Foretravel and know for the money it is the best. DAN
Well I'm motorhome less for the first time in over 20 years and the search for me is not fun at all and is really starting to piss me off. I had my old gasser P30 for 12 years with crapy brakes and never came close to a accident let alone a serious accident knock on wood.
Mike ,sit back have some Java,Doris and I looked for 2 year's for what we wanted, it was a Foretravel, our Daughter work for Lazy Day's , I drove Beavers, CC and any thing I could, then I meet Red Tractor, he said if you want to travel buy a Foretravel.
I want that on a T-shirt!
Many pluses for the FT, but a very biggie is the RETARDER, nothing else on the road RV wise will stop in the same county. Give it a try, driving along at 65 mph, push hard on the brakes, and get ready for all the junk coming forward, pots, pans, refrig items, coffee maker, toaster oven, soap bar from bath room and pillows.
Try it.
Yup.
I've done that twice in my six years with a Foretravel. She really digs her claws into the pavement.
Built for travel ... And for stopping.
Mike, Be glad that you have sold your old RV. When we purchased our Foretravel from FOT, they would not take our gas Winnebago in on trade. We still are trying to sell it almost a year later. By The Way, a Foretravel is the way to go.
David makes all the right points. We shopped for a year, had the cash, make a few trips to see the "wrong" coach and then flew 2700 miles to pick ours up on the other side of the country. There are just not that many Foretravels out there plus most RV sellers have a hugely inflated idea of what their coach is worth. The reasonably priced coaches are there and when the right coach at the right price comes up, you have to move quickly. Bottom line: it's a buyer's market no matter what anyone tries to tell you. Part of having your "ducks in a row" is knowledge. An almost daily search for information and prices with a check list to go with it gets you ahead of the game.
For us, our U300 had the perfect interior design with quality materials, wiring, etc used throughout the coach. We also wanted the Detroit engine with Jake brake so we got almost exactly what we were looking for at the right price. After going to many RV shows, the poor quality of most SOBs was quickly apparent. The remaining few with better materials were over the top Las Vegas entertainer appointed.
This forum is not only a great asset for prospective owners but is a must if you own one as the factory manuals are poor at best.
I loved my bus with it's tank like construction but without spending a great deal more, it's impossible to get a low mileage bus with the quality interior as well as the four corner disk brakes, etc that our Foretravels have.
Several years ago, I traveled to Eugene, OR with a friend to pick up his new motorhome. In a private conversation with the shop foreman, he remarked that 90% of their buyers have no clue how much it costs to own and maintain an RV once they have signed on the dotted line. Especially important if you are a retiree on a fixed income.
Best spent $$ is bringing in another Foretravel owner to look over any prospective coach. Hiring Brett to do an inspection will save money, not only in the short term but further down the road as well. Love the old adage, " A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client."
Pierce
Mine was a 1994 Fleetwood Pace Arrow that was in mint shape. We never wore shoes in it the stove was never used. Put it on Craig's list on Sunday night and was sold in three days. Every thing worked and needed nothing. What kills me is everyone saying you need 10k to dump into it in the first year.
Based on our experience that figure is way too high. We needed to replace our refrigerator cooling unit during the first year, and that was under $1,500. We purchased carefully, and the previous owner had maintained it well and was totally "up front" with us about every aspect of the coach. Therefore, repair costs so far have been minimized.
The major expense we have had so far is putting fuel into it. I don't like the cost of fuel--but it sure has been fun needing to refill the tank as we have traveled!
You only need to dump $10K if you chose poorly or were really unlucky (and most of the time, you make your own luck). After we got ours home, we spent less than $500 for all the things that needed to be done in over 4 years (including six house batteries that listed for over $435 each). Naturally, this does not include fun stuff like HDTVs, solar panels, etc. or insurance, license fees. With research, DIY skills, you can keep the cost of ownership way down. The older the coach is, the more you need to be a DIYer or lacking that, a fat wallet.
That's why any buyer needs to spend a few bucks for an inspection by a knowledgeable Foretravel person so you DON"T CHOOSE POORLY.
Pierce
I think the $10k is what they are saying you should be prepared for in sort of a worst case scenario. Many buyers have somewhat unrealistic expectations when they buy a used coach and have no idea what maintenance, tires, batteries and everything that wears out and all of that sort of stuff costs. Work those issues into your purchase offer. A complete engine, transmission, coolant, aquahot and generator maintenance plus six tires and six batteries might not be quite $10k but right up there.
Be a smart buyer, do your homework, get an unbiased inspection, make a fair and well informed offer and be prepared to do what is required to get your new coach road ready and its new owners road ready as well.
It makes no sense to buy right up to your limit and have no reserve and then live with that nagging fear of not knowing that everything is good to go.
You will spend $ on maintenance and repairs. Period. No way around it so plan accordingly.
Fuel $ = fun. That first $600 fill is a bit of a shock. You will get over it.
Roger
It is good counsel to have a decent reserve for after purchase repairs. Not that it will or must get spent, but buying a 10 plus year old piece of equipment as sophisticated and complicated as a FT motorhome without adequate reserves and a mindset that things will need to be addressed is unrealistic optimism. Better to have a pleasant surprise that you didn't spend the reserve, than the unpleasant one of needing a few thousand dollars in repairs and not having the funds to pay for them.
"What kills me is everyone saying you need 10k to dump into it in the first year." That may not be true for everyone, but some spend much more than that. That figure usually includes both repairs and upgrades. Suppose a coach needs six new tires and new house batteries. The tires will run $4000 or so, depending on brand and the deal. We bought two 8D AGM house batteries for just under $1000. There's half of that $10,000. Add a new television or two, a new refrigerator, updating the inverter and charger, and the other $5000 can be nearly gone. Adding solar can also make a dent in that budget.
I'd rather have had $10,000 in reserve and not needed it than had nothing in reserve and needed $10,000.
Where do you fit the $25,000 Xtreme paint & few upgrades fit into this panic attack ?
Its all optional and sure not required. :o
Then you have more & more upgrades, again not required, but makes one happy ;D
Actual needed repairs are near non existent, mostly standard service items.
Do the routine that what makes you happy.
PTL
People who buy brand-new coaches, even the multi-million-dollar ones, have things that need to be taken care of, so why should someone who buys a used coach expect any different? The buyer of the new coach thinks the issues are being repaired for free under the warranty, but in reality those costs are built into the price of the coach. The buyer of a used coach doesn't have anyone else to look to, so we pay for those repairs ourselves.
Consider two Foretravels that left the factory as identical twins ten years ago. Today they are both on the market. One of them needs six new tires and new batteries. The other has new tires and batteries. Will they be priced the same? Of course not. After the first one gets the new tires and batteries, the total cost of the two coaches will be pretty much the same. What's the difference? If you buy a coach that is 100% ready to go you will pay more for it than one that needs some repairs. The coach that needs some repairs may not need all of the repairs done immediately, so the buyer can spread the expense out a bit, and maybe even do some of it himself. "Ya pays your money and takes your choice."
After seeing others, and living with ours for just over a year, the Foretravel is the ONLY way to go.
Other factors being equal, they should be worth the difference between the cost of the tires and batteries. But personal circumstances by both a private seller and a dealer may be quite different. Some sellers may look at the original price they paid and can't bring themselves to price the coach at a realistic level. Others may have financial or marital problems that necessitate a low price for a very quick sale. Dealers also have different sales philosophies.
In our case, our U300 had been sold three times with the buyer unable to come up with the financing each time. The seller kept the deposits and when we offered $10K less, they took it. We were able to buy the coach for just over $20,000 with only 62,000 miles, two brand new roof ACs and a set of new tires. This is why you can never judge the condition of a coach by the price, only by actually inspecting it. This is also why you have to be willing to jump on a plane as soon as you see a deal on Craigslist, etc. "The morning hour has gold in it's mouth."
From the days of sailing, I can remember distant foreign ports where couples arrived after a tough voyage, split up and left the boat. Tough to get anyone to fly 10,000 miles to look at a boat and pay anywhere near market price, especially if it's been sitting and not exactly in Bristol condition. So the bargains are there. Just have to look a bit.
Pierce
I would almost rather buy a coach that needs the work so I could learn the systems and after replacing all the wear out items then I can start out with new consumables.
Obviously needs to be reflected in the price.
Buying one that needs a lot of work can be very expensive if you cannot do it yourself. Also a lot of people out there that do not tell you the truth on what is wrong with a coach, so get an inspection. Don't ask me how I know that one, but luckily I can fix most things.
JohnH
As related here before - We found our FT at a price I couldn't refuse. Her interior and exterior was in great shape, most everything worked. The PO had passed and his wife decided that the coach had to go. She put thousands into her including belts hoses and a bunch of stuff she paid for that was NOT repaired. A complete PDI was completed and everything listed was supposedly repaired/replaced. We knew it needed new tires and the auto-awning did not work.
We have owned her for over a year and put roughly $13K into her including new tires and new batteries and other stuff and over 14K in miles. Of course some of that $$$ was spent on stuff that we wanted and did not require. If one were to search my threads and read them, one might think that we have lived a horror story. Nothing is further from the truth. We have learned alot about our Ol' Girl and have done most of the work ourselves. She is the only job I have other than taking care of my bride.
Her appraised/market value is still much greater than our total dollars spent and we are quite pleased with our decision.
Even with the best inspection one can not detect what will fail and require repair/replacement like our mighty fine 14 month old Prosine 2.0 that the PO replaced.
I suppose that if we had spent another $13K we Might have gotten a coach that didn't require the repairs that ours has, but then again we would not have spent the additional $13K. :D
FWIW
I was at Oregon Motorcoach in Eugene and saw a Country Coach Magna in for service. Got a chance to meet the owner and quickly got around to talking engines. He heard me pull in and knew I had a Detroit from the sound. I asked which engine he had and he replied he had a Detroit. Found out later it was the 12v92. When he started up and I heard him leaving the parking lot I have to admit there was lust in my heart. :)
see ya
ken
never heard of that installation. Maybe with an eaton economat nine speed trans for the torque. I would think the 4060 would not handle that.
Detroit series 60?
The sound of a 60 is light years from a 12V-92 or any Detroit 2 cycle. Could have been optional as most had 60 series or big CATs.
FD ladder trucks get an easy 515 hp from a 6V-92TA so double that. Probably 600 in a RV. A good reason to be a green eyed monster. That would be a 18 liter engine.
Pierce
:P Having a lot of sperience with both the 12V-71 & the 12V-92 DDC engines, I can assure you Country Coach nor any other RV maker ever used either of these engines.
Having created a 12V-71 in the MCI was a challenge, but the 12V-92 is a much longer engine having two blocks bolted end to end unlike the 12V-71 is a single block. Plus the weight of the little 12V-71 runs 3,400 lbs the 12V-92 over 4,000.
Horsepower wise the 12V-71 runs in the 480 hp area the 12V-92 runs in the 950 hp area, however all DDC 2 strokers can go way up from there, have taken the 8V-92 to 835 hp, fun to drive but no fun at the pump.
The 4000 Allison behind the 12V-92 would look like it had been in a blender, even the old 12V-71 took out drivelines, U Joints & rear ends when the driver got forgetful at a stop sign.
So I suggest the feller that claims his Country Coach had the 12V-92 take a breathe and regroup. :)) Bet that chap sold Ocean front property in Iowa or Kansas ;D
As I recall both the CC Magna and Newell ran 8V92's at one time. Maybe he just got confused but the 8V92 would be cool.
Kent, Most likely the over zelous comment, yes the 8V-92 can be fun, but the 6V-92 has proven to be a better/ longer lasting engine.
Dave M
Just curious: Why is that? I thought the two engines shared the same basic design and a lot of components. Are there cooling issues with the 8V-92, or some other unique issues?
The unique issue is mainly the 8V has a habit of spinning the rear main, the 6V does not have that issue.
In general the 8V is a great engine as long as you are aware of the issue, that is why everyone that pays attention runs 50 wt oil, this seems to have eliminated the bearing issue.
Both engines use the same bearings, the rear main in the 8V seems to be very tender with the amount of stress applied.
Dave M
They must have cured that problem as the 8V-92s are still manufactured today by MTU (Mercedes) for overseas or military sales while the 6V-92, 71 and 60 series are all history with only re-manufactured engines available.
As I remember, at least the rod bearings are the same and interchangeable between the 71 and 92s. Don't know about the mains.
Pierce
Pierce,
Maybe MTU has made sone changes. The bearing issue is why a very few charter & Greyhound stayed with the 6V. How the 50 wt idea showed up was from a charter opr in Denver, they did not like the low power from the 6V, so started replacing mains in the 8V every 50 k miles, but that did not solve the issue, so out of desperation they tried the 50wt and had no further problems,
Why I ran 50 wt in my 92 creations, no issues even at the 835 hp 8v-92 toy. Of course I did not run it but about 15,000 miles in a bus, so only loaded it up very seldom on big mountain running, hit bottom at 55 and quickly into the 90 - 100 while still on steep grade.
Also got an education on radiator cooling/fans/mister system.
Have had a lot of fun, spent some $$$, but the experience was worth it.
Nice looking 16V-92s with one installed in a South American big rig at: 16V-92 detroit - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=16V-92+detroit&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS548US548&es_sm=119&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=tKqkU5TNEoGXqAaopIK4Bg&ved=0CGQQsAQ&biw=1429&bih=779#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=t2siecQF14-HmM%253A%3BT2gbvk4qgjyZwM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.4x4brasil.com.br%252Fforum%252Fattachments%252Fgeral-off-topic%252F202822d1259788274-e-o-campeonato-brasileiro-caminhao-freightliner-com-motor-detroit-diesel-16v92t.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.4x4brasil.com.br%252Fforum%252Fgeral-off-topic%252F66861-e-o-campeonato-brasileiro.html%3B800%3B455)
Looks like a good job of splicing a couple of 8V-92s together. Of course, EMD just uses a giant version of the 53, 71 and 92 series in their locomotives today. 20 gallons an hour at idle and 200 while pulling a train.
Pierce
Interesting. I have experience with an MCI coach with an 8v-71, and I've read a lot about various coaches (up through the mid-90s) that used the 8-V92. I've read that the 8V-71 was generally more reliable than the 8V-92, but I've never read any specific reason(s).
Both Bluebird Wanderlodge and Newell used a lot the 8V-92 engines. Did they had a lot of problems?
I once asked the shop foreman why they kept the 8V-71 engines in stock remaned when they had a few 8V-92 engines ready, why not use only the 92 engines. That was an education for me, he said the 71cost about $3,500 to rebuild and would run 400,000 miles and the 92 cost about $6,000 to build and they lasted about 200,000 miles, so he asked "Why do you think we keep a lot of 71 engines". Their fleet is about 110 mostly MCI coaches.
Speaking MCI only the7 has the structure for the 12V-71 along with the 6 (was factory build) the newer 8, 9 & newer do not have the structure to hold the weight and torque of the 12.
I lived this game over 20 years, not book educated, but know what end of a wrench to use.
I looked through all the info I have on CC models and the closest thing I can find is a 1990 Concept that came standard with a 350 hp 6V92. Optional was a 450 hp 8V92. But the GVWR on these is 37,400 lbs. So even with the 8V92 the weight per HP ratio is 83lbs./HP verses your U300 coach at 85 lbs./HP. So not that much difference at all. And I would guess the Concept actual weight is closer to the GVWR than respectively in the Grand Villa.
IMO, Purchasing a CC would never be a mistake unlike so many other SOBs out there. I think CC and FT are both very good but are just different. I admire CC but I prefer Foretravel.
There is a very sad Country Coach Concept in storage at Thousand Trails Pio Pico... I saw it when I was looking at a Conex Box box for sale about two years ago. This CC was parked right next to it. I noticed the door was slightly open so I closed it without even stepping inside, though I was extremely curious. What I could see from the doorway looked very upscale and unfortunately had a slightly mildew smell. I took a few pictures... as you can see, it has a Silver 8V92. I was interested enough to do some looking online, and was impressed by what I read. Pretty rare, and apparently it was Country Coach's foray into trying to build a Prevost like high end coach. When I first glanced at it, I thought it was a conversion done by CC. Too bad it sits there deteriorating...
Don
It looks as if it was once a very nice coach. It really hurts to see nice one just wasting away. I wonder what its story is . . . .
Still has a lot of curb appeal. Wonder if the owner still dreams about using it or might entertain an offer. They have nice quality interiors. Figure it should sell for $12-$15K in this condition if runs OK. Here is one for sale a year newer: An Exceptional 40 Foot 1990 Country Coach Concept Class A Diesel Coach! (http://www.onlineauction.com/auction/1435212/An-Exceptional-40-Foot-1990-Country-Coach-Concept-Class-A-Diesel-Coach!) 450HP so while it probably flies, it uses a bit of fuel doing it.
They went to 6 speeds a little later on.
Pierce
I am not sure that it is an 89' come to think of it. I don't remember now why I settled on that idea now, unless maybe it was just the first year they made them. I do remember that they did't make this coach for long. They made a later year coach called the Concept, but it was not of the same linage, iirc... Interesting stories abound in this industry. Country Coach, at least up until the mid 2000's or so at least had a focus on making the best they could for the most part. Like FT, Vogue, earlier Beavers etc. Too bad not many left with that operating philosophy... TG FT is still around ^.^d
Don
Here's the spec sheet on the 1990 Concept for those who are interested:
I worked on several of the concepts and know why it was called the concept. They had many electrical issues. They used red multi connectors for the wiring and they were a real problem.
Yes a buddy, don partridge, bought the first one. I saw the multi connectors. Looked trick.
Constsntly dead batteries. Steering issues.
Interior is a exact size of a prevost.
Drove the first concept with an 8v92 and a six speed. Same 3:08 rear gears. Way over 100mph coach. 120?
The silver coach looks familiar. Hmmmm.
3.08 in the back with a 1 to 1 sixth gear should give 82 mph at 2110 RPM with the 450HP 8V-92T. I see it came with a 3.55 stock ratio with the 350HP 6V-92TA. Must mean it was a heavier coach than our Foretravels at 40 feet.
Just noticed the 12R/22.5s on the CC compared to our slightly smaller than 11R/22.5s (295/75/22.5) on our Foretravels. So tires are a bit taller. Top end would be a little more so with 12R tires 41.38" diameter at 2110 RPM, the top speed at ECU cutoff would be 84.65 mph with a 3.07 ratio.
Pierce
I think fifth and sixth are both over drive gears. Fourth is one to one. Fourth was the same as the previous Used 747. Just add the other gears.
Yes fifth is .75 and sixth is .64 to one. Add one third to your speed calculations. 120+
Bob,
You got the numbers right. Now where can I get a MD3060? Sure would be nice to have the OD 5th and 6th. I did see that most CCs had the HT747 four speed with the rear end ratios I quoted. Are you sure they didn't put a higher numerical rear end ratio in the later 6 speed models? Does not make too much sense to go from a 85 mph top end to a third more in the next year.
Pierce
This thread had me looking for photos. I found two Concepts on RV Trader. One is 42', the other 45'. From the length and looks, definitely going after the Prevost market. The older one has a very homey, Foretravel-like wood interior, the newer one (both were rom the nineties), a glitzy Prevost-like interior. Two beautiful coaches.
Tom,
I agree, nice looking coaches. Photos at: country coach concept - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=country+coach+concept&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS504US504&es_sm=119&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=RYelU9OSBc2lqAaPvoCQAg&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1358&bih=647)
Still has me wondering about the rear end ratio. I changed out a rear axle third member in a Mercedes 300SD from (have to bring it way back from my memory) a 3.23 to a 2.86 which happened to be from a 500SEL. The mpg went up, the noise level down but I lost all trailer towing ability. Plus, it was difficult to start on hills, even without my trailer.
Again, looking at CC specs, the coach can't be a light one and is reflected in the difference in rear axle ratios from our 350HP 6V-92TA U300s with a 3.07 to CCs Concept's 3.55 with the same horsepower and 7XX series four speed transmission. Dropping RPM by about a third has to wreak havoc with the CC grade climbing ability in fifth or sixth gears.
Here are the ratios from a HD4060. http://www.powerforce.com/pdfs/transmissions/ds_pf_4000.pdf (http://www.powerforce.com/pdfs/transmissions/ds_pf_4000.pdf) You can see first gear is 3.51 Now, going to the Allison 747 specs, first gear is 3.69, a little higher numerically than the HD4060. Allison 4-Speed Automatic Transmissions (http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help2014/2011/Allison/allison_4speed_auto_trans.htm#HT) 747
Bottom line: CC has a heavier coach with the Concept compared to our U300s with the same exact 6V-92TA engine. This, with a slightly taller first gear and larger diameter tires in the CC is the reason they went with a 3.55 rear end (3.07 with the larger 8V-92T) rather than the 3.07 our U300s have. Would think a CC Concept in sixth gear (0.65 OD) would die just looking at a grade ahead and not come off the line well in first.
Just my thoughts with nothing to do but think about fun stuff.
Pierce
I know a former CC chassis engineer. I asked him once how they decide on the rear end ratio: Top speed about 85 mph or a little better. I've noticed they always increase the rear end ratio when going from 4 to 6 speed trannies to offset the overdrive of the 6-speed. I always think of the 6-speeds as being advantageous climbing mountain grades - gets you closer to the ideal gear for that particular grade. On my 4-speed, it drops to 3rd (w/out lockup) on grades and stays there - I can feel the engine has a little more power available but not enough to go into lock-up. I suppose I might gain a few mph with a 6-speed. I would like the joy stick retarder control on the 6-speeds too. I only have a proportional retarder with the brakes.
I love talking chassis stuff.
John,
Are you sure you don't have lockup halfway up in second, all of third and all of fourth? We should have the same transmission with the exception of the retarder you have. Ours seems like a 5 speed as it "shifts" twice in second gear. It really takes off when it goes into second direct. The transmission temperature also drops once it's in lockup. Easy way to tell for other owners is in lockup, the tachometer will follow the speedometer exactly whether on the throttle or off the throttle without torque converter slippage. Really adds to the mpg and power plus takes a big load off of the engine cooling. In other words, the 746/747 should never be in anything but direct/lockup anytime it's in 4th, 3rd or halfway up in second gear.
The Allison should be able to be programmed to do the lockup once you get midway in second. If anyone does not have this setup, I would think a call to an Allison specialist would confirm ability to change programming and cost to do it. Should be as simple as a computer flash.
Pierce
Long ago bird had problems with the 747 trans " hunting" between gears up grades. Down shift, accelerate, up shift to fourth then fall off speed and start the process over. ,
Fix was a 757 five speed trans. It would hold fourth up grades and not over accelerate.
V6 concept was slow. V8 was not.
Bob,
On the way home from buying our U300, I ran into that problem. Rather than get into that endless cycle, I just dropped it into third and went to partial throttle. Saves the transmission and the driver can just sit back and relax to the top. On the other hand, a U300 will go 55 mph in third so it's not like you are crawling. Unless I'm getting hot, I don't worry about running 2100 RPM in third.
What is frustrating for a manual transmission driver is not being able to get into fourth until you hit 48 mph with the Allison.
A five speed would make a big difference, especially at altitude when you just can't make it in high gear. Birds' are really, really heavy. Talked to one owner with a non-turbo 3208 in his old one. He said old style 36HP VW vans were faster up hills.
Changing the air cleaner made a huge difference what grades I could pull in fourth. Since I changed it, I have not met a big rig or RV faster up the hills. Stock tell-tale for the air cleaner does not seem to be accurate.
Pierce
Pierce,
Interesting about air filters, a week ago I traveled the northern 110 miles of the Blue Ridge Pkwy, did at one point notice a slight hint of black exhaust, this week I changed the air filter, sure did make a large improvement. The tel-tel indicator showed zero alarm.
Yesterday, I ran about 85 miles, surprised at the improvement in get up & go.
Am aware the air filter is more effective when it is nearly stopped up, for sone reason I will use a cleaner filter.
Filter Barn was very good price on the air filter.
Since I suffer from CRS it may be me making sh1t up. :) Based on all the comments it must have been an 8v92. It sounded like a smooth running sewing machine as it left...
see ya
ken
Dave,
Like you, I was really surprised. I looked up all the maximum restriction each engine could tolerate and then bought a gauge with all the numbers and lines on the side. Detroit 2 cycles use a huge amount of air and the requirement can even change with the blower ratio. Hence, the stock 5 inch exhaust. Wish I had put a stopwatch on it before and after.
On the way home, we were getting left behind by quite a few RVs and trucks. I figured we just weighed a lot and would have to live with it.
Brings me to another point. When people say a hundred thousand mile diesel pusher is just getting broken in, that may be true. But how many owners just turn the key and go.............for years without doing anything to it. When we started home, the owner's wife took me aside and said that when we got home, we should think about really going over the coach. I'll never forget the way she said it.
Pierce
John,
I have lockup in 2nd, 3rd, and fourth in my HT 746 as Pierce stated and also confirmed at Al-Trans in mobile where I'm getting serviced
for an Atec code 32. Should have the results by Monday.
Dave,
I could a notice a big difference on my last trip in power and mpg when I replaced my air filter to a Napa Gold.
These guys specialize in Detroit 2-cycle rebuilds. DETROIT DIESEL REBUILDS AUSTRALIA (http://www.shoeydieselaustralia.com/)
I'd sure like to have this setup in my rig. Man these Aussies really know how to rebuild 'em! 6V92 with twin turbos, 1300 ft lbs of torque and 400 horse power mated to an Allison 4000 6 speed. All to specs and going into an '84 Silver Eagle bus. Turn your speakers up! www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlSkMcY1rUA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlSkMcY1rUA#ws)
Jerry aka Murph
Murph,
6V-92 mechanical runs 450 hp at 1800 rpm on normal generator, would think the twin turbo would be in the 500-550 hp area, the DDC 2 stroke models can go way up.
Cooling issues start to be big issues.
DDC 2 strokes take more intake air and require larger radiators & mister system or two.
Sweet sounding, the 12 is the sweetest of them all and smooth like an electric motor, they fire 12 times per rev, that is smooth, just goofy sound at idle due to strange firing order.
The twin turbo models are used mostly in boats. Each turbo is much smaller than the single so able to provide boost (pressure) at lower RPM. This is important on a boat as there is a huge amount of drag from the water before the boat gets up on a plane so the engine needs it's power at lower RPMs than it would in a vehicle. Audi also uses twin turbos on their 2 liter diesels in Germany. They are not alone as some even install different sized turbos. I think Mazda did that on one of their rotary engines.
In boats, the twin turbos don't usually last as long as the single as they spool up at low RPM and can overspeed at high RPM, high throttle openings and operate at very high temperatures. The engines may operate at 80% or more of their max output for hours at a time.
So, you have generators with the 53 series Detroits runnng at 1200 RPM that may exceed 40,000 hours with nothing done. Our 350HP engines should go several hundred thousand miles if maintained well, the fire department 6V-92TAs at over 500HP (ladder truck only) probably need to be overhauled every 2,500 to 4000 hours and most of the boats the same. Some boats have 6V-92TAs at 615HP but have a shorter TBO unless they blow up before that.
Jerry, good video, wonder if they are using an intercooler. Pretty conservative HP rating but lots of torque.
Ken, easy to make a mistake just listening to them. Eight cylinder two cycles sound the same as 16 cylinder four cycles. That's why everyone thinks they are screaming but really only turn about the same RPM as a Cummins or CAT.
Below is a YouTube video of a FD ladder truck electronic DDEC III 6V-92TA single turbo on the dyno after an overhaul. 520HP at 2295 RPM and 1190 foot lbs of torque. Looks like the pulse width is 21.7 (time the injector is open). Maybe that's part of the way they get the HP.
Detroit Diesel 500Hp 6V92TA DDEC3 Titan Fire Truck Engine on the Dyno Part1 - (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xy527eJ4Jw)
Pierce
Jerry,
Did you see him using the Pro-Link 9000 on his bench next to the electronic foot throttle? And this guy is not wearing headphones? Has a good excuse for not answering his wife. :))
Pierce
Looks to me like the camera and instrumentation are on this side of a glass window, so the sound is reduced from the other side where the engine is doing it's business.
Maybe I'm pessimistic but I would guess that 90%+ of motorhomes (probably most non-fleet vehicles too) don't get the required maintenance at the appropriate interval and that the vast majority of owners only deal with something when it breaks.