Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: littledubz on July 07, 2014, 09:56:13 am
Title: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: littledubz on July 07, 2014, 09:56:13 am
Had a bad weekend last weekend. Cause of fire is so far undetermined. So there is one less Foretravel on the road than there used to be. Everyone is fine, I'm happy to say. Here's one tip I know for sure from this incident...if you smell smoke, get out! Everyone talks about how fast these things go up, and I can tell you it went up faster than I would have thought possible.
Now I'm down to working with insurance on valuation, which is a bit of a trick because there are so few of these on the road and the valuations vary wildly. Any tips?
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Michael & Jackie on July 07, 2014, 10:10:10 am
Friend of mine stopped at a coach just out of Nac and told the driver, who was sitting inside the coach working on something, that his coach was on fire in the back. Nac fire dept came while friend helped owner but major damage, perhaps totaled coach.
I do not know what caused that fire nor brand of coach. He and I wondered what caused that fire about two weeks ago. Do you know what caused your fire, where it started?
Don told me on the fire he saw and alerted the driver, that fire was falling out of the engine compartment, was white smoke.
Mike
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on July 07, 2014, 10:10:50 am
That's awful but glad everyone is okay!
Be firm with your adjuster. Best wishes.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: rsihnhold on July 07, 2014, 10:14:02 am
Wow. Glad you are safe and got out in time. Thats one hell of a close call.
What area of the coach did the fire originate from?
I would try to use MOT or FT listings as a basis for comparison for a real world price. Even then, I doubt your insurance company will do that and will use Blue Book which is much lower.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: wa_desert_rat on July 07, 2014, 10:22:11 am
Whew! Glad you got out ok. What were the circumstances of the fire? Traveling? Stopped? Working on something? Downright scary.
Makes me even more anxious to get a residential fridge... even if that wasn't the cause of your fire.
Best of luck with insurance.
Craig
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: twobus on July 07, 2014, 10:22:38 am
I used Diminished Value Auto Appraisal Experts | Total Loss Insurance Claims | Wrecked (http://www.autoloss.com) to get a much better valuation on a totalled car. You might give them a call and see if they can go to bat for you.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Michelle on July 07, 2014, 10:25:07 am
So glad everyone got out OK!
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: littledubz on July 07, 2014, 10:32:57 am
I'd say its a total loss :-( I am going to wait until the insurance business is settled before I speculate as to the cause. It was a 1992 U-300
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 07, 2014, 11:22:11 am
I'd say its a total loss :-( I am going to wait until the insurance business is settled before I speculate as to the cause. It was a 1992 U-300
Would say it was worth somewhere around $30K. Good if you can supply any recent expenses, etc. Dealing with insurance companies can be difficult. Years ago, I had a total loss and was offered half what I thought it was worth. I did a lot of research for what the same year was selling for and after a few months, settled for about twice what they had initially offered.
Looks like it may have started in the interior. Fridge would be number one on my list. Easy for the fire to start and the fire spread from the wind while driving. Forward motion may have prevented detecting the fire for a minute or two. Too late anyway once it gets started.
Hey, my family has been in the fire service since 1927 so when I lined our refrigerator compartment with Hardie backerboard, there was a reason. Stop putting it off or rationalizing and just get it done! This area is a BOMB.
The older Foretravels do NOT have the fire resistive foam the later models have plus the OEM fridges are reaching the end of their lives.
The only thing burnable is cover on top of the roof. This could be replaced with an aluminum and then would be about 100% fireproof. Check the photos, do it and stop worrying: http://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100921130470085833749/albums/5794180000392973681 (http://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100921130470085833749/albums/5794180000392973681)
Looks like a good 6V-92TA and Allison transmission are OK.
I need the engine door! Looks to be still serviceable.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Tim Fiedler on July 07, 2014, 11:46:00 am
You might look into hiring an adjustor to represent you if you don't like their offer. Do you want to replace? Same vintage or newer ? You could make them buy you an equivalent coach
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Keith and Joyce on July 07, 2014, 11:46:19 am
Glad everyone got out OK. Be very firm with the insurance. They may low-ball you at first. Do your research and get lots of comparables from FoT and MoT as well as similar condition examples. Blue Book and the like mean nothing. Also take into account all upgrades. Your personal items should be separate. Read and understand your policy before talking with the company. Agree or sign nothing until you are satisfied.
Keith
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Lucky1 on July 07, 2014, 12:06:38 pm
I too am glad everyone is okay. Fire is a top concern of mine. Just did the fire plan and drill with the boys on Saturday. Made sure they could open every exit window. Especially, if you travel with kids I really recommend a fire plan so everyone knows what to do.
Good luck with insurance. Hope it goes well.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: D.J. Osborn on July 07, 2014, 12:44:27 pm
Very interesting to see the substantial framework structure of the coach. Very sad, though, to see it on burned-out coach. Very thankful everyone is okay!
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Carol Savournin on July 07, 2014, 02:57:46 pm
I am SO very sorry that you have this event to deal with. It is a horrible shock, and not one that you can get over easily. Learning the cause will be interesting ... but it's not gonna help you stop seeing that image when you close your eyes. All the best to you. Again ... SO sorry.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John S on July 07, 2014, 06:22:50 pm
WOw, glad you are safe the rest can be replaced. Just think of the fun you will have looking for another coach. Have to look on the upside.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Genie915 on July 07, 2014, 07:11:34 pm
Wow! So glad you got out safely.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John/Pat on July 07, 2014, 08:56:32 pm
Sorry for your lose. But thankful that you are safe. Like others have suggested, be patience, wise, and determined when dealing with insurance adjustors. They belong to the same group as used car salesmen IMHO John
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 07, 2014, 11:39:32 pm
Glad to see others on the forum were thinking about a fire drill and exit strategy. Our coaches don't burn like the buses featured in last week's visit to the 1960's on CNN. With a petro product, Rich's title, Gone in 60 Seconds, is exactly that. Even 10 seconds can make a huge difference when trying to get out.
I went out to look at our engine compartment this morning. Think I will start with the Hardie Backerboard there tomorrow with the insulation under the protective layer of the cement board. In the generator compartment, the fuel system is on the opposite side of the engine from the exhaust system and no turbo so that will be last to make fire resistive.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John Haygarth on July 07, 2014, 11:49:41 pm
Pierce, would not a fire supression system in engine compartment be better and easier. Surely that would put a fire out. Having the backerboard would not stop a fire just keep it contained?? JohnH
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 08, 2014, 02:43:25 am
John,
I installed the backerboard (it's only 1/8" or 3/16" thick) in the fridge compartment to contain any fire for the short time any combustibles might be available. In the case of the engine compartment, our 2 cycle Detroits have a higher potential for fire as the turbo is mounted at the top of the engine and only a very few inches from the bottom of the bed. We only have to worry about the lower pressure fuel supply lines as all high pressure fuel including the lines and injector/pump are internal and not a hazard. The lower pressure lines are well wrapped and I would not expect them to spray diesel on the hot turbo. The danger here is under high power, the turbo may even glow and a partial exhaust pipe failure could put hot exhaust gases on the wood roof of the enclosure.
Immediately above all of our engines is the bed where a mattress where cotton may be found. Burning cotton produces hydrogen cyanide, the gas that kills far more smokers in bed (or sofa) than a direct flame. Incomplete combustion (no flame) also produces lots of carbon monoxide. Any failure of a turbo fitting will result in a substantial loss of power. This should always be investigated immediately. The backerboard will not be compromised by even a blow torch and in the event of a substantial fire, contain the fire and allow an escape to be made and perhaps have time to fight the fire. Would be nice to have a warning light wired to the instrument panel. Caught very early, it could be taken care of before much damage could occur.
A built in extinguisher will also work in conjunction with the backerboard in either putting the fire out or helping to contain it. In the case of a turbo pipe failure, the hot gases may outlast the contents of the extinguisher and the air intake is far enough away that the engine will keep running. Extinguishers also must be inspected, discharged and refilled each year by a licensed firm. Failure to do that may degrade their ability to fight fire. They are not like a fusible link in a sprinkler system that can go for decades without any maintenance.
NFPA recommends five fire extinguishers be carried in an RV. After an engine compartment fire has been discovered, evacuation and then using a dry chemical extinguisher into a engine compartment (from the outside engine door) where the walls and ceiling are flame resistive, has the best chance of saving the coach in my opinion. I have a five gallon pressure water extinguisher that also works well.
If a fire may be suspected, the very worst thing would be to lift the bed to inspect the area. Don't laugh, I'm sure it has been done before.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: krush on July 08, 2014, 07:53:20 am
Sorry for the loss, but glad everybody is unharmed.
I have an agreed value insurance plan. It was based off my purchase price. I will probably retain it for a few years in case of a loss as the NADA book value is about 50% of the market value of these coaches.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: littledubz on July 08, 2014, 08:40:20 am
Thanks everyone for your kind wishes and concerns. I will keep you informed of how it goes with the insurance settlement.
Rich
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on July 08, 2014, 09:18:30 am
Like everyone else, we are glad you re safe. The "after" picture was pretty amazing with all of the structure still there. We saw the aftermath of SOB burning up in IA in May. A couple hours after it burned they were loading the remains on a flatbed. The only structure left was the front seat backs. Refrigerator fire.
Roger
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: twobus on July 08, 2014, 10:20:40 am
I know this is some very small consolation, but I thank you for sharing this. This will make me put the fireboard in the fridge compartment, and look into making a suppression setup for the engine bay. Someone else on this forum kept us from losing our radiator to the oem cooling fan, maybe you'll keep us from burning up.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Carol Savournin on July 08, 2014, 11:19:12 am
Whew! Glad you got out ok. What were the circumstances of the fire? Traveling? Stopped? Working on something? Downright scary.
Makes me even more anxious to get a residential fridge... even if that wasn't the cause of your fire.
Best of luck with insurance.
Craig
I would also like to know what the circumstances were. Were you on the road and someone flagged you down? I think we all suspect the refrigerator as the culprit, but I would love to know your thoughts and if there were any warning signs. We have a fire suppression unit behind the fridge (as recommended by Mac the Fire Guy) but I have heard discussion that the suppression units in the engine compartment would be fairly ineffective because it is not a confined space. A residential fridge is in our future, as well ... but mainly because I am tired of the erratic cooling and the laborious defrosting issues involved with the Dometic. It IS 12 yrs old, as well ... so failure is certainly in the cards. You have a lot on your mind, just now ... but I surely would love to hear more of the details, as you review things leading up to this terrible event. SO glad that you are OK!!
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John Haygarth on July 08, 2014, 11:41:21 am
Pierce, I have no experience in the suppression systems but thought it would do. Our Turbo is fairly close to the underside of bed too (about 8"). I guess the fact we are sitting right next to the exit door in our coach compared to the GVs (centre door) we should stand a better chance of getting out fast if the need arises?? Maybe all GV owners should keep a good hammer next to the seats to smash windows if you have to, instead of running towards the fire if it is "fridge related" ? Johnh
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: fkjohns6083 on July 08, 2014, 12:00:55 pm
Fires are so tragic and have absolutely no mercy!! Praise God that everyone is OK. These kind of things are good reminders to have fire extinguishers in the drivers area, kitchen area and the bedroom. Have them in proper charge and know how to use them. I have shown Kathy how to use them, but we should review this on a more regular basis and talk about how to use them to get out of the coach. I wonder if there are small scale fire alarm systems that could be installed in key areas of the coach. Have a great day ---- Fritz
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Don & Tys on July 08, 2014, 12:07:36 pm
No consolation at all, but there is something to be said for the steel wall framing in our coaches. A friend of ours lost their rig to a fridge fire here in our home base park. This is a picture of the aftermath... It happened in the middle of the night and they barely had time to get out. They felt lucky to get the loan paid of with the insurance settlement. Don
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on July 08, 2014, 12:28:16 pm
Don, That Picture is scary, anyone who is going to buy a MH should be shown that photo and also a photo of a burnt Foretravel, no contest. Gary B
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Tom Lang on July 08, 2014, 12:39:39 pm
As many of you know, I recently experienced a refrigerator fire. Fortunately I was stopped and there to put it out quickly. Damage was limited to the refrigerator alone.
Many lessons were learned.
I was fortunate that this is a Foretravel, and no wood was near the fire, only fire resistant foam.
Since I was running on ac, there was no propane on to fuel the fire after the refrigerant ran out.
My original plan was to have it fixed, but since insurance is paying for it, I am having an exact fit DC compressor refrigerator made.
Had I had it fixed, I was going to install the suppression system that Mac sells.
I was also going to have the device at this website installed.
ARPrv | RV Refrigerator | RV Fridge Control | Install by Cooling Unit | RV Fire (http://www.arprv.com/)
Mac has one in his RV. It detects higher than normal temperatures in the boiler and turns the refrigerator off long enough to cool down before restarting. This should prevent overheating that can lead to a fire. This is prevention, which is better than suppression.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: fouroureye on July 08, 2014, 01:23:09 pm
Tom, I like it! ^.^d
KISS, $120 WoW :o
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 08, 2014, 02:18:34 pm
I was fortunate that this is a Foretravel, and no wood was near the fire, only fire resistant foam.
Tom,
Earlier model Foretravel owners are not as fortunate as you as we don't have the fire resistant foam, only thin lauan wood. Just wanted to point that out to owners who may think they enjoy the amount of protection you have. Would be nice to know when Foretravel upgraded their fridge installation.
Yes, fire prevention is always number one but if it fails, a method of suppression is the backup. Examples are prevention building codes requiring a fire resistive coating sprayed on steel beams but at the same time for suppression, a sprinkler system with fire department connections.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Tom Lang on July 08, 2014, 06:02:45 pm
One of reasons I like this inexpensive device is that it turns off the refrigerator for a period of time when an event occurs that might cause damage to the cooling unit. Such events as a blocked flue might be uncommon, but others like being off level might occur at any time. It shuts down before the damage occurs that might end in a failed cooling unit or worse yet, a fire.
Another lesson learned was that the immediate course of action when the refrigerator stops cooling is to shut it down until the cause can be determined and remedied. Continued operation can subject the boiler to excessive heat, again causing it to spring a leak.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: fouroureye on July 08, 2014, 07:14:29 pm
Its a no-brainer, no questions, automatic, seamless! Thanks for the research ^.^d
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Barry Beam on July 08, 2014, 07:29:58 pm
I was also going to have the device at this website installed.
ARPrv | RV Refrigerator | RV Fridge Control | Install by Cooling Unit | RV Fire (http://www.arprv.com/)
Mac has one in his RV. It detects higher than normal temperatures in the boiler and turns the refrigerator off long enough to cool down before restarting. This should prevent overheating that can lead to a fire. This is prevention, which is better than suppression.
Tom, I was at our monthly RV outing with a group and the owner of this device was having a seminar on it. I had one installed as several others did after the seminar. It looked like a no brainer and a good safety precaution.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on July 09, 2014, 01:13:04 am
One of reasons I like this inexpensive device is that it turns off the refrigerator for a period of time when an event occurs that might cause damage to the cooling unit. Such events as a blocked flue might be uncommon, but others like being off level might occur at any time. It shuts down before the damage occurs that might end in a failed cooling unit or worse yet, a fire......................
Tom,Glad to see that you have a plan and that it is progressing for you. Others may have missed a point that I offered earlier, so I'll repeat the information, just in case it may help someone. The new ATWOOD Helium refrigerator design (direct physical size "plug and play" replacement for the NORCOLD and DOMETIC 6 and 8 cu. ft. refrigerator sizes) incorporates a similar but more sophisticated protection circuitry. See:
Absorption Refrigerator Options in a U270 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=19944.msg146254#msg146254)
As compared to the ARPrv design, which senses only boiler region excessive temperature, to shut off the propane supply, See <http://www.arprv.com/> (http://www.arprv.com/>);;
the ATWOOD design incorporates both level and temperature sensors to shut off all electrical (AC, and DC, if optionally configured) and propane gas heat generation sources, under undesirable conditions. Alarms of the inappropriate condition(s) are displayed on the refrigerator user front controls. After a given time out, heat source operation is allowed again when both temperature and level conditions are returned to acceptable values.
After triggering a set number of off level or high temperature protections, the ATWOOD design shuts down the refrigerator permanently until an ATWOOD authorized service examines the boiler region and determines that lasting damage has not occurred. A chip on the refrigerator control board accumulates the operational history for ATWOOD's evaluation.
ATWOOD is purposefully vague in their product literature about all of this. And if you press ATWOOD for further information, it becomes clear that the "Patent Pending Status" is a big reason. As Gary would say, our Gov'mt at work again!
So the defense is to go to the patent and see what it says. And it says, in essence (I've paraphrased a lot here as the Patent Pending Document goes on for many pages):
ATWOOD Absorption refrigerator unit with temperature and level monitoring US 20120102981 A1 Abstract The control system for the refrigerator has a Helium absorption cooling arrangement and heat source controls that include a temperature sensor associated with the boiler region. A temperature sensor, that senses the temperature of the cooling arrangement, a level sensor that senses the fore and aft (2 to 3°), as well as the side to side (2 to 3°) level condition of the refrigerator, work together to control the energy supply sources associated with the heat generator. A control circuit includes a processor that is in communication with the temperature sensor, the level sensor and the heat sources It is configured to determine a sensed temperature from the temperature sensor and a sensed level condition from the level sensor. The control circuit is configured to turn off the heat source based on determining a high boiler region temperature or a fault condition (the sensed temperature is below a predetermined temperature threshold after a predetermined time of heat source application) or based, at least in part, on determining the sensed level condition exceeds an out-of-level threshold.
The point of all of this is that ATWOOD has designed a direct replacement option designed for a moving platform (RV) service application. Their design maintains the dry camping efficiency of an absorption refrigerator design, but removes the Hydrogen absorption refrigerator fire hazard. And most importantly, it has incorporated better fault protection than is available in any other manufacturer's design (RV or residential) that I am aware of. It costs less, cools better and (thus far) seems to be working very well for us.
The ATWOOD response to my initial problem (some sort of "GOOP" leaking out of the new refrigerator absorption section) was to provide an immediate full replacement of the original unit, at no cost to me. The replacement unit did the same thing (ATWOOD said watch and wait) The small amount of discharge stopped after a few weeks and the refrigerator is working just fine after five months of continuous use.
I'm not trying to promote ATWOOD, but I do think that the DOMETIC and NORCOLD design issues and their Corporate bottom-line greediness have given birth to a whole lot of very real heartache and fear that ATWOOD may have fixed, in a very simple, well thought out design. From what I can find, absorption refrigerators are responsible for something less than 6% of all RV fires. It puzzles me as to why there is such misunderstanding. From what I have actually seen, just RV owner's actions (or in-actions) and modifications, without proper engineering, materials and installation, are responsible for many more fires than just 6%. Why isn't there corresponding emphasis there? As another aside, if time share units and motels were subject to the same fear mongering and over reaction associated with absorption refrigerators as RV's are, no one would ever stay in a room or suite equipped with an under the counter drink or efficiency refrigerator. Yet the hotel industry (hydrogen) absorption units are favored, efficient, quiet, widely used, never a problem, last forever, etc, etc. Of course they aren't used off-level either, and that is a big difference.
At any rate, it's always important to stay aware of one's options. It's obviously not favored by the more outspoken FoFum's, but the ATWOOD option seems to be working out well for us at a much lower cost ($'s and support systems). The ATWOOD option maintains the original FT design (dry camping and minimal shore power) flexibility without adding batteries, inverters, alternator burdens, generator run times, solar panels, controller complications, insurance and parking limitations, etc. to complicate our (as well as our neighbor's) enjoyment of the grand life. Life is good, enjoy it...................and KISS! Neal
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: TAS69 on July 09, 2014, 01:29:03 am
Would say it was worth somewhere around $30K. Good if you can supply any recent expenses, etc. Dealing with insurance companies can be difficult. Years ago, I had a total loss and was offered half what I thought it was worth. I did a lot of research for what the same year was selling for and after a few months, settled for about twice what they had initially offered.
Looks like it may have started in the interior. Fridge would be number one on my list. Easy for the fire to start and the fire spread from the wind while driving. Forward motion may have prevented detecting the fire for a minute or two. Too late anyway once it gets started.
Hey, my family has been in the fire service since 1927 so when I lined our refrigerator compartment with Hardie backerboard, there was a reason. Stop putting it off or rationalizing and just get it done! This area is a BOMB.
The older Foretravels do NOT have the fire resistive foam the later models have plus the OEM fridges are reaching the end of their lives.
The only thing burnable is cover on top of the roof. This could be replaced with an aluminum and then would be about 100% fireproof. Check the photos, do it and stop worrying: http://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100921130470085833749/albums/5794180000392973681 (http://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100921130470085833749/albums/5794180000392973681)
Looks like a good 6V-92TA and Allison transmission are OK.
I need the engine door! Looks to be still serviceable.
PierceThanks for the pics. Will be tackling that sooner than later. Are the late model Dometic units safer than the original units at all?
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Tom Lang on July 09, 2014, 02:02:09 am
I too noticed the added out of level sensor on the Atwood helium models. The ARPrv unit does not directly sense out of level, but it does indirectly as a non-level condition will cause the boiler temperature to rise, shutting down the refrigerator.
When the ARPrv unit shuts down the refrigerator, it turns off the 12 volt supply, which shuts off everything, including the propane valve and the electric heating element.
They do make another model, just slightly more expensive, which included a remote display panel that can be mounted inside the RV to tell you what is happening. This is the model Mac has in his rig.
From what I have read, and from talking to Mac, I believe everyone with a hydrogen filled absorption refrigerator should spend $120 on this right now. Money well spent, for safety sake.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 09, 2014, 02:21:40 am
I think as they move toward the end of their lifespan, they become more and more of a liability. Some have had recalls because of early failures and others have failed before you would expect it. Ours had a failure before we bought it so when I took it out, I was able to see what is actually inside the enclosure. In a few hours, I was able to make the enclosure very fire resistive at a minimal expense. I had a new Norcold I horse traded for in the garage that fit in the spot without much work. In about 6 more years, I will probably replace it with a residential unit or perhaps an Atwood like posted above. The sensor Tom and Barry mention is an excellent idea but a rust through situation might still cause a fire. Older Foretravels are also likely to have dry rot in the wood surrounding the exterior fridge access door so it's a good time to rebuild the area around it when things are apart. I think I spent less than $50 for all the backerboard, screws, caulk, etc and only hand tools with the exception of an electric screwdriver did the job. Do a web search for recalls against your model number. Makes owning one a little safer but nothing will make them 100% risk free.
Even if parking for lunch where the coach is not level, I shut off the fridge. Easy to just push a button to get it going again.
Also, remember the fridge is between you and the exit door in case of fire at night. An exit plan and a serviced smoke detector are important.
The fire could also have easily started in the engine compartment where there is only a little more than 2 inches from our turbo to the old foam insulation above with plywood just above that. In many cases, the insulation goes bad and hangs down until it touches the turbo. Vibration causes exhaust component failure so important to do inspections on all diesel models of the exhaust manifolds, clamps, pipes looking for black soot. A number of members have had failures there. I know other forums where Eagles and Prevosts have had engine fires. The owner of Tegas Coach Works passed away but I did talk to his son and one of the topics was turbo fires in their buses. A good way to extend the life of exhaust components is to fast idle the diesels before shutting down to bring turbo and engine room temperatures down after a hard pull on grades. Expansion and contraction heat cycles will also age the components so another reason to be alert on any of our turbo engines. Will post photos as I make the engine compartment more fire resistive.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: bbeane on July 09, 2014, 05:50:49 am
I also wonder how many RV refrigerators ever see any inspection or proper cleaning until they stop working. I hope Atwood will expand their line to a direct replacement for the 12 cu foot side by sides real soon, as they seem to have created a better mouse trap. Like Neil for all the same reasons I like the absorption fridge.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 09, 2014, 11:23:25 am
Home refrig have mounting, door locking, sealing & size issues, which we all have to overcome ourselves when installing an electric home refrigerator in an RV.
Atwood could take advantage of these limitations and add RV electric fridges to their line. They could be 110 volt or 12 volt compressors. As more and more RVers convert to home fridges, Atwood & Norcold loose sales because they are not in that market.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 09, 2014, 11:28:08 am
Here is an interesting comparison between Atwood's new helium RV refrigerator and the comparatively sized Dometic. The use of helium greatly reduces the chance of fire since it is an inert gas. The street price is just over $1000 with about another hundred for either wood grained or black front panels. Ford's video won't win an academy award as he takes 20 minutes for what should have been done in 2 or 3 minutes but is very informative for a prospective buyer. Here is a PDF of the Atwood vs Dometic test: http://rvrefrigeration.com/wp-content/uploads/Evaluation-Report-rev4.pdf (http://rvrefrigeration.com/wp-content/uploads/Evaluation-Report-rev4.pdf)
YouTube video at: FRVTS No 14 Atwood Refrigerator Part 2, Atwood RV Refrigerator, Dometic, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YysfHocCQI)
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 09, 2014, 09:21:05 pm
An error on my part, a new dry chemical extinguisher is good for six years before it must be recharged. Sorry about that.
A 2.5 gallon water filled extinguisher is cheap and if filled with a 3% or 6% mix of AFFF (Aqueous Film-Forming Foam) with water does a good job of putting out an engine compartment fire. 6% is about $90 for a five gallon container and 3% is about $112. Only need a little bit but they don't sell in pints and quarts are expensive. Dish soap does a fairly good job also for a lot less $$.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: TAS69 on July 10, 2014, 06:50:54 pm
I think as they move toward the end of their lifespan, they become more and more of a liability. Some have had recalls because of early failures and others have failed before you would expect it. Ours had a failure before we bought it so when I took it out, I was able to see what is actually inside the enclosure. In a few hours, I was able to make the enclosure very fire resistive at a minimal expense. I had a new Norcold I horse traded for in the garage that fit in the spot without much work. In about 6 more years, I will probably replace it with a residential unit or perhaps an Atwood like posted above. The sensor Tom and Barry mention is an excellent idea but a rust through situation might still cause a fire. Older Foretravels are also likely to have dry rot in the wood surrounding the exterior fridge access door so it's a good time to rebuild the area around it when things are apart. I think I spent less than $50 for all the backerboard, screws, caulk, etc and only hand tools with the exception of an electric screwdriver did the job. Do a web search for recalls against your model number. Makes owning one a little safer but nothing will make them 100% risk free.
Even if parking for lunch where the coach is not level, I shut off the fridge. Easy to just push a button to get it going again.
Also, remember the fridge is between you and the exit door in case of fire at night. An exit plan and a serviced smoke detector are important.
The fire could also have easily started in the engine compartment where there is only a little more than 2 inches from our turbo to the old foam insulation above with plywood just above that. In many cases, the insulation goes bad and hangs down until it touches the turbo. Vibration causes exhaust component failure so important to do inspections on all diesel models of the exhaust manifolds, clamps, pipes looking for black soot. A number of members have had failures there. I know other forums where Eagles and Prevosts have had engine fires. The owner of Tegas Coach Works passed away but I did talk to his son and one of the topics was turbo fires in their buses. A good way to extend the life of exhaust components is to fast idle the diesels before shutting down to bring turbo and engine room temperatures down after a hard pull on grades. Expansion and contraction heat cycles will also age the components so another reason to be alert on any of our turbo engines. Will post photos as I make the engine compartment more fire resistive.
Pierce
Thanks for all the info!
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Lucky1 on July 10, 2014, 10:22:05 pm
Okay, so in addition to our fire plan practice and discussion, after seeing these photos I went to a store in Grand Rapids. I bought two much larger dry chemical extinguishers and two of these:
As soon as I can get it done, hardy backer will go throughout the closet in between the frig and the boys coach midship. Larger windows will be installed in the bunk areas, fire suppression will be added to frig.
Thanks guys. Really good helpful stuff. It is scary to see these photos but not nearly as scary as being in a fire ill equipped with kids poorly educated. Had another practice run tonight in Petosky.
Check out the StatX. Expensive as heck but it could be invaluable if you need time to get everyone out.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 10, 2014, 11:57:52 pm
Joe,
How much did StatX First Responder cost? I see prices of several hundred for each. How large is each can? Can you store the can outside from the case it comes in (RV space is a premium).
Great that you are being preventive.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Lucky1 on July 11, 2014, 08:22:38 am
I paid $150 a can from these people: Rapid Fire Protection Inc. (http://rapidfireprotection.com)
Looks like storage temps are permissible from -40 to 140. 6.875" tall and 3.188" diameter. Mine did not come in a case.
Spec page is here: http://www.statx.com/First_Responder.asp (http://www.statx.com/First_Responder.asp)
Hope everyone has a great day.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on July 12, 2014, 10:18:16 am
.......................YouTube video at: FRVTS No 14 Atwood Refrigerator Part 2, Atwood RV Refrigerator, Dometic, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YysfHocCQI)
Thanks Pierce. As always, you raise excellent points. I didn't see any need to raise the following issues before now, but since you have referred the FoFums to Roger Ford's ATWOOD video, I guess that I should speak up, again.
I have used Roger Ford's ATWOOD information, but with caution. I believe that at least some of the ATWOOD testing information that Roger presents may be intentionally misleading. Just in case someone else may be tempted to repeat the extensive research that I got into (because of Roger Ford's video) I'll offer the following: Taken overall, the Roger Ford training videos contain some of the very best information available on absorption type refrigeration operation, theory and repair. Roger's video techniques may be difficult to endure, but I have a lot of respect for his knowledge and for what he does to promote owner and repair personnel knowledge. But in the (now) nearly 1.5 year old "ATWOOD tilt" video, Roger goes on a prolonged, uncomfortable rant about several issues;
the noise that the ATWOOD external condenser fan produces,
the ATWOOD tilt technology,
the resultant (lack of) indication,
the ATWOOD Company failure to respond to his questions and
some boiler region engineering design details (that he subsequently referred to a third party engineering lab).
I had seen the video (and puzzled over it) nearly a year before my NORCOLD died. Once it died and I was seriously evaluating my replacement options, I tried to follow up on that video with both Roger Ford and with ATWOOD. What I was trying to determine from Roger was whether his ATWOOD test unit had appropriately protected itself or not, regardless of what the test unit front panel indications were during his induced tilt conditions, as well as what the third party lab had determined regarding Roger's design questions. He's a very capable person and I'm sure that he had answers, most probably before he made the video public. For whatever reason, all I ever got were additional indications that Roger had some sort of axe to grind with ATWOOD - and he wasn't about to answer the following easy questions;
Regardless of what was indicated on the front panel, did the ATWOOD test refrigerator interrupt electrical heater and/or propane supply when the test unit was in an "excess tilt" condition?
If it did interrupt the energy source(s), at what tilt angle did it occur, how long did it take to react to the tilt condition and did some sort of thermal limit also have to be reached before energy source interruption occurred?
Was/is the rear mounted condenser fan mandatory for all operation or might it be disabled until additional air flow is needed to maintain cooling or improve efficiency? (ATWOOD says that it may be disabled, so I put a switch on mine.)
Did Roger ever receive an answer from the independent engineering lab, regarding the boiler region design question that he raised in that video? (As I understand it, the ATWOOD design avoids introducing welding stresses into the most critical system failure region [the boiler region]).
Unlike Roger, ATWOOD was professional and explained the tilt operation theory to me (also explained in the publicly available Patent Application). ATWOOD wouldn't speak badly of Ford, nor would they directly address the points raised in the Ford video, but they reassured me that the points raised were non-issues. Because ATWOOD was more professional and rational, I eventually discounted the Roger Ford information and went ahead, trusting that ATWOOD knows what they were doing. It was clear that they weren't going to give away any Patent Pending trade secrets. So that is the caution, regarding using Roger Ford's ATWOOD information. Take the video with a grain of salt. I believe that the information that Roger raises may be tainted by whatever disagreement he has had or continues to have with ATWOOD. On a second point, you refer to absorption refrigerators "rusting through".
..................I will probably replace it with a residential unit or perhaps an Atwood like posted above. The sensor Tom and Barry mention is an excellent idea but a rust through situation might still cause a fire.........................
From all that I understand and from Roger Ford's videos (for example); Roger has been in the business of repairing failed absorption refrigeration units for over 35 years. He has dissected thousands of failed absorption refrigeration units and he has never once seen a "rust through" condition. In fact, as compared to a residential, compression-based refrigeration system with thin walled copper solder joints, he states that the steel construction is probably the single most important factor in favor of an absorption design. RV and Marine absorption style cooling units are built of heavy gauge steel stock and all components are welded which make them far more durable/less susceptible to mobile platform shock and vibration failure as well as joint fatigue. The internal chromate additive makes them absolutely impervious to internal rusting. The non insulated outside surfaces are warmer than ambient, which makes all of the pressurized sections all but immune to external rusting. If they fail "through-wall", it is generally in only one of two places; By far, the predominant failure location is in the boiler region which sees repeated thermal stress cycles from the electrical heater or propane flame application (it is also right where the NORCOLD and DOMETIC designs introduce long longitudinal residual welding stresses). The next, but far less likely failure location is (an over pressurization failure) at the "blow-out plug fitting". The first is generally a "gradual leak before break" scenario. The second is generally a catastrophic rapid depressurization. You mention that the ATWOOD wood insert panels are $100 additional cost.
..................The (ATWOOD) street price is just over $1000 with about another hundred for either wood grained or black front panels........................................
Again, from my experience and as detailed in my previous posts and cost spreadsheet, Absorption Refrigerator Options in a U270 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=19944.msg146254#msg146254) the ATWOOD panels don't match the FT interiors in either wood grain, coloration or quality. They are flat 3/16" plywood inserts (or scratch-able material for the black) whereas the FT panels are solid 1/2" oak wood inserts that have been run through an edge shaper to create a high quality, fluted profile. I had to do just a minor amount of edge trim to have my original panels fit perfectly. On a final point, Roger Ford says that the ATWOOD design reduces fire risk due to Helium being less flammable than Hydrogen. You are much closer when you state that Helium greatly reduces the chance of fire since it is an inert gas. The fact is that Helium is a totally inert gas and cannot be made to burn. And the other three additives in an absorption style refrigerator (distilled water, chromates and pure anhydrous ammonia) won't burn freely either. Only Ammonia, in a lab, in the presence of a catalyst, or under strictly controlled lab conditions, can be ignited, but that would be improbable, if not impossible, in the field. FWIW, Neal
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John Haygarth on July 12, 2014, 11:36:08 am
I put in a residential so I do not need to worry my little head over any of this talk. I have absolutely no problems with it and cost me a hell of a lot less to do than replace old one with a new Absorbtion one. Plus we got extra usable storage space. Luckily as I do not like to park for months on a concrete slab and pay ungodly amounts of money for the right to do so (this to me is the opposite idea of the reason to own a motor home) I had installed Solar to be free of that Umbilical cord !! This (having my own power source-quiet type) was another reason for electric Fridge, although many folks run fine off inverter and Batteries without any Solar. I look at most comments in this article and it seems to me that the people who are discussing the benefits of the very much more expensive propane units are the ones that are "parked and plugged in for months", surely they should be leaning more to the Residential type than others?? This baffles me! Again I paraphrase Dave M's comment "whatever makes you comfy and happy" I guess. JohnH
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on July 12, 2014, 12:06:47 pm
I put in a residential so I do not need to worry my little head over any of this talk. I have absolutely no problems with it and cost me a hell of a lot less to do than replace old one with a new Absorbtion one. Plus we got extra usable storage space. Luckily as I do not like to park for months on a concrete slab and pay ungodly amounts of money for the right to do so (this to me is the opposite idea of the reason to own a motor home) I had installed Solar to be free of that Umbilical cord !! This (having my own power source-quiet type) was another reason for electric Fridge, although many folks run fine off inverter and Batteries without any Solar. I look at most comments in this article and it seems to me that the people who are discussing the benefits of the very much more expensive propane units are the ones that are "parked and plugged in for months", surely they should be leaning more to the Residential type than others?? This baffles me! Again I paraphrase Dave M's comment "whatever makes you comfy and happy" I guess. JohnH
John, I guess that you're aiming all of that at me, since few others speak out in defense of absorption refrigerator technology. We have over 180K miles on our coach. We have put every one of those miles on ourselves and most of that travel has been "off the grid". We may park in some beautiful destinations but we are more likely to be unplugged and enjoying the benefits of a beautiful design made for traveling without an umbilical cord or any (residential refrigerator driven) additional wear 'n tear, batteries, inverters or support systems.
I'm just trying to present balanced opinions/options and be considerate of other people's needs/viewpoints. FoFums is a grand exchange of enthusiastic TEAM information, but if the entire TEAM were restricted to only one viewpoint, there would be much less value in the exchange. Just my opinion, but I'm "comfy and happy" with that. Neal
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John/Pat on July 12, 2014, 12:51:32 pm
Thank you Neal for the details. I respect you for sharing the technical data on absorption refrigerator. My Norcold died last year after 140000 miles and 16 years on the road. That to me is durability and longevity. I listened to all the positive responses and respect their opinion but made the decision to go with another Norcold. For the previous track record. I think one would have more to worry about a accident then a fire. If the risk of fire was a viable concern; you can bet that the insurance companies would be charging higher rates to those of us that have absorption refrigerator.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John Haygarth on July 12, 2014, 01:21:18 pm
Actuall Neal I was not meaning to "slant" my opinion to anyone in particular, just my thought's as to who (according to their previous postings) are relying on RV Park power more than not. That is why I said it "baffles me" that they would more likely replace with Electric than most. I too enjoy your well thought out postings as I would not go to those depths to think about it, so I leave that part up to others!! I am too busy doing a miriad of things at the same time so for me the easiest way to solve an issue is "go with my gut feeling" at that time. Sometimes I have to retrace my steps, so to speak, but the experience is gained. I have seen the expression KISS a few times and that is the way I go. Hey, we are all in this together, helping others I hope. Sorry if I offended you as it was not meant to. I was trying to put my observations out there but maybe did not express it correctly. JohH
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Caflashbob on July 12, 2014, 01:52:18 pm
John, I guess that you're aiming all of that at me, since few others speak out in defense of absorption refrigerator technology. We have over 180K miles on our coach. We have put every one of those miles on ourselves and most of that travel has been "off the grid". We may park in some beautiful destinations but we are more likely to be unplugged and enjoying the benefits of a beautiful design made for traveling without an umbilical cord or any (residential refrigerator driven) additional wear 'n tear, batteries, inverters or support systems.
I'm just trying to present balanced opinions/options and be considerate of other people's needs/viewpoints. FoFums is a grand exchange of enthusiastic TEAM information, but if the entire TEAM were restricted to only one viewpoint, there would be much less value in the exchange. Just my opinion, but I'm "comfy and happy" with that. Neal
I cannot justify the expense on our coach to replace the dometic refer. Biggest issue to me is the gen is not in a quiet box. Too noisy for quiet locations.
Everything is a package. 660 amp hours worth of 8g8d's gels turns out not to be enough IMO for a household refer installation.
Battery location does not easily support installing four batteries together. Long cabling to an additional battery works but is not the best way to equalize the batteries charge and discharge.
For me I would have to source a duplicate to my lower battery tray and move the installed parts in my battery location through the compartment wall then add the tray and the fourth battery.
We normally prefer to dry camp. Prettier normally in our areas.
Weather areas requiring a/c on all the time would probably have me switch coaches to one with a gen in a quiet box.
So for my perfectionist satisfaction I would need at least four batteries closely mounted, a quiet gen, 1000 watts of solar, new magnum 2812 to 3012 inverter with auto start and battery temp monitoring.
Then the refer installation.
Way too much money invested in a 97 for me.
The coach as-is was designed to work as a package with the installed refer.
Major re-engineering would be required for my tastes in rv'ing.
We are not tight campground fans. Love a spread out dry camp area.
The aqua hot in operation consumes a fair amount of amp hours already. Adding the additional consumption of the household refer would require two hours of gen time per day to restore the roughly 260 amp hours consumed between both devices if both used.
Drawing down the batteries to lower levels shortens their service life greatly. Look at the deka web site.
The gen on continually would allow the household refer with no problems but I barely run ours. Noise. Smell.
The money I see invested in paint jobs and headlight conversions and solar and household refers and such does not seem to be returned in resale. Over built for the price point.
Unless you intend to run 10-15 years to use the money invested the resale in not much increased.
I have to slap my hand about putting money in our coach as I do not like to lose that much money for the small benefits.
Although those who do invest drive up the prices on the used coaches in general for the rest of us.
Thank you
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John Haygarth on July 12, 2014, 02:14:02 pm
Bob, re all the upgrades. I have spent 5k on the solar and batteries etc and $500 on fridge and cabinet as all the other things were done when I bought(paint/ lights and Banks Stinger). I am lucky as I can cut the cost of upgrades/ changes by doing it myself both inside and outside the coach. In 4 yrs I may have spent 8k total (which incl tyres on front & resonator change) and all tiling and led lights inside. I think that is pretty cheap considering and with the price I paid to buy coach I can still get back all my money and more than I have spent on it. Not bad for 4yrs of use. JohnH
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Tom Lang on July 12, 2014, 03:02:11 pm
After my refrigerator caught fire, I would have felt safe replacing the cooling unit and other damaged components, but only with the addition on the ARPrv unit to prevent fires and a fire suppression system to put out fires. My wife, on the other hand, did not share my feelings. This is why the insurance company is footing most of the bill for an exact fit custom made compressor driven marine/RV refrigerator. We both need to sleep at night.
I would have preferred the repaired Domestic for boondocking, as my minimal solar would keep the batteries charged while my large propane tank would last for many months in warm weather. After the new refrigerator is installed, I will need to do a new power audit and see how it looks. I do have twompre solar panels stored in a bay waiting for installation, which should help greatly.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: littledubz on July 23, 2014, 08:07:14 am
For anyone who is still following this saga, I am pleased to report that I did get paid by my insurance company (Progressive) yesterday for a total loss. Unbeknownst to me, I had a declared limit policy, which means that under no circumstances would the insurance pay over $25,000. In my case, my '92 U300 was appraised by them at $27,400. So even though I thought the coach was probably worth more than $27,400, seems silly to argue about it since they're not paying more than $25,000. All things considered, I feel like I came out even. They also covered by first $1000 loss of contents with no deductable, and sales tax, which is $1,750.
I probably would have kept that coach for years, as it really was everything anyone would need. Now that she's gone, I am thinking of something a few years newer (new body style) with perhaps a couple of slides. It's going to be a while before I'm ready to jump into another one.
Shopping for a Foretravel is quite a challenge. I think if I lived in Texas, it wouldn't be so bad with those dealerships down there. In New Jersey, I have to do some serious traveling, especially if I want to evaluate more than one coach.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: fouroureye on July 23, 2014, 08:49:05 am
I realizz its none of my business but, that seems LOW ???
Could you buy a 92 u300 for that? Might be tough! Appraised by them? Sure looks like an independent might be better or better yet actual sales figures.
Glad your happy, good luck with your search.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: rsihnhold on July 23, 2014, 09:02:59 am
For anyone who is still following this saga, I am pleased to report that I did get paid by my insurance company (Progressive) yesterday for a total loss. Unbeknownst to me, I had a declared limit policy, which means that under no circumstances would the insurance pay over $25,000. In my case, my '92 U300 was appraised by them at $27,400. So even though I thought the coach was probably worth more than $27,400, seems silly to argue about it since they're not paying more than $25,000. All things considered, I feel like I came out even. They also covered by first $1000 loss of contents with no deductable, and sales tax, which is $1,750.
I can recall putting that appraisal number in with Progressive. I also didn't necessarily realize that it was a hard limit since my coach value is probably higher than I originally paid for it at this point.
In the end, glad that this was all taken care of and good luck with your search for a new motorhome.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: littledubz on July 23, 2014, 09:05:04 am
I talked to others on this forum with recent purchases of very similar coaches, and that definitely seems to be in the ballpark. I bought mine in '09 for less than that, of course I have since put THOUSANDS into in, but I supposed I just have to be philosophical about those expenditures.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Tim Fiedler on July 23, 2014, 09:09:15 am
He had a defined limit policy. He had agreed to $25,000 as value, so that is what insurance co owed, plus sales tax on that amount. No room to discuss, since value was in contract (policy)
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: jaholder76 on July 23, 2014, 09:47:58 am
Was the fire caused by refrigerator? This is a real shame; To lose any Foretravel, but this one seemed especially nice. I have gone overboard with fire prevention systems on my old coach. After 20yrs of ownership It would be like losing a family member if something were to happen. I've been around rv's since the '70's and it seems to me that refrigerator fires were almost unheard of til the last 5-10 yrs??
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Roland Begin on July 23, 2014, 10:00:17 am
My brother has a small camping trailer that was old when he purchased it in the late 70's. He is still using the refrigerator to this day. Tomorrow I will go look at the back of the refrigerator to see what it looks like. He has had no problems with the thing and it runs on propane. Maybe they made them "tougher" in the "olden" days.
Roland
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: kb0zke on July 23, 2014, 10:06:22 am
"Maybe they made them "tougher" in the "olden" days." I think that may be the case. No real evidence for that, other than everything seems to be disposable now.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: fouroureye on July 23, 2014, 10:09:08 am
Tim, I get that. Just seems odd that appraisal by insurance was so close to limit.
As to price of 92 u300, many searches finding few and all are over the 25K. But to each an opinion. Take care :)
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 23, 2014, 10:38:41 am
Prices on Craigslist, etc are just wishing prices. Should be able to find a nice later U300 for right around $20K with some cheaper, some more. Cash is always king plus no one is going to finance an older RV.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Tim Fiedler on July 23, 2014, 10:39:06 am
Ahah!
Yes, but they are in business of appraising as low as you will accept, and to be fair, it is a thin market and old vehicles hard to appraise in general
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: wa_desert_rat on July 23, 2014, 11:32:07 am
As far as price of solar goes, I have FAR less than $5k into mine. In fact, I have $500 into the two 240-watt panels and $140 into the two Unisolar panels plus $650 into the Classic 150 controller.
Add another two hundred into the mounts, wires, circuit breaker panel, 12vdc busbar and misc. parts. Just under $1500 for 640-watts of solar; installed (by me; a 71-year-old guy and his wife). If I had the rooftop space I could add two more 240-watt panels and still be under $2,000. And I bought the panels over two years ago so prices for those are probably even lower now (except for the Unisolar panels which are getting scarce).
$2k for more than a killowatt of power sounds pricey but remember that it's always on as long as there is daylight (or if you're parked under the lights at Walmart).
A residential fridge for my U225 runs around $450 (but I have not bought or installed one, yet). My inverter cost under $200. So for just over $2k I would be able to sleep better at night knowing that my refrigerator is not going to catch on fire. Probably.
Now $2k is a fair bit of change, I'll admit. But when you remember that one of our forum members had to pony up $5k just to repair his (admitedly sophisticated and pricey) generator and I think it all falls into place.
No noise, no exhaust, no vibration, no fuel consumed, and no repair bills. And that's *before* you get no refrigerator fire and a burned-up coach. In our case if we had a fridge fire we'd probably try to get our dogs out before we escaped the fire and there is no telling how that could turn out. Not to mention getting out of those bedroom windows at 70-years-of-age.
You might notice that the controller cost as much as all the panels combined. But without that particular controller I think I'd need another couple hundred watts of panels and I don't have much roof space left to do that. The Classic 150 is the smartest charge controller I could find (well, that Pierce could find, at least) and it improves array performance above that of even other MPPT controllers.
Installation has been interesting and it's not completely over yet. I still have to finish the wire runs and secure them but I think the configuration is now fixed and the 4 panels have been working for the past two weeks. Yesterday evening we siliconed all the holes in the combiner box and at the top of the closet where the wires enter the coach.
I turned the shore-power charger/converter off a week ago and leave one LED lamp on in the bedroom, one florescent light on in the salon and the smart fan on (set to 80-degrees). Batteries are still 12.5vdc in the morning.
Yesterday we had clouds and rain and at 5pm the panels were still pumping 5-7 amps into the batteries while I had all the florescent lights on over the half-dinette since I was sitting over there soldering. The batteries were charged up since the rig had sat there all day so that was all the power I was using; nothing was coming from the batteries at all.
That's another advantage of solar power. Once the battery bank gets charged then extra solar power is free energy. In the afternoon you can use power tools, charge laptops and tablets, top off the trolling motor battery for your fishing boat, etc. without drawing any power from your battery bank (or, if you do, that gets put right back in by the solar system).
No noise, no smell, no vibration, no propane cost, no moving parts, and no generator repair bill. I don't know about you guys but we live on electric power and I'm willing to manage the system a little bit to ensure that I have enough of it; especially for free.
Whether it adds to the resale value of the motor home is not much of an issue for me; any more than replacing the batteries or tires would be. Or paying for insurance every year. Those have to be done when it's time, regardless. And maybe you could even talk your insurance agent into lowering your rate because of the significantly lower fire risks. Equally, I don't try to "pencil out" costs versus return. Probably because I'm a better technician than I am a business person. The use I get from the system and the enhanced safety feature are what's important to me; not any economic return.
Besides that... it's pretty cool!
Craig
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: John Haygarth on July 23, 2014, 12:07:57 pm
Having had our solar for a few years and very happy with it I am in agreement with Craig's comments. My system cost around $5k partly because I did not install the original set up but also added 3 of the best batteries to enhance the system and give lots of storage, they cost around $1600 at the time. I added extra panels and rewired the whole system for less voltage loss I look at it that I can do most repairs/ improvements myself where others pay what I feel outlandish amounts for this work, so I gather it all works out. I would NOT go back to a Propane fridge but you do need some sort of power other than the genset which I would not use other than in an emergency as I feel unless it is really really quiet it is an infringement on others close to you. Another reason we have this coach is for the peace away from the crowds and solar helps in that regard. JohnH
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: WaltH on July 23, 2014, 12:18:17 pm
Solar is definitely on the list of things to do/get on our next RV. (We likely won't add solar to our current rig as we will only have it a couple of more years before getting what I hope will be an FT coach.) After reading through this thread, I think a residential refrigerator may well be another thing we'll want to add. Unless, of course, it already has one or perhaps one of the helium absorption models.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: littledubz on July 23, 2014, 02:36:25 pm
The cause of the fire was never reported to me. In my mind however, it is a virtual certainty that this fire started in the engine/bedroom. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the fridge was running on AC power.
If you want my opinion, I would advise you to be mindful of whatever insulation is between the engine and the bottom of the bed. I know there have been topics on this forum regarding insulation deteriorating both in the engine compartment and in the generator compartment. Other than sound, if that insulation had another purpose it must have been for heat. Honestly, I never really noticed a difference in the decibels since that insulation started to break down, so I'm thinking it may be for heat insulation.
Anyway, take it for what it's worth. I know Pierce has a coach like mine, and I'm guessing he has already put the Hardi Backer panels on the bottom of his bed. If I still had a Foretravel, that's what I'd do too.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 23, 2014, 04:23:12 pm
Insulation Fire Hazard, Part 1
OK, here are a some photos of the engine room and generator compartment insulation fire hazard. As you can see, the turbo is just below the roof of the compartment. Turbos do glow after a hard climb and you can imagine what it would do to the insulation as it sags down against it. If one of those clamps fail, direct flame would likely catch the insulation on fire. The mattress is only separated from the insulation by 3/4" plywood.
Here is a photo of the generator compartment exhaust pipe. Nothing failed but the installation allows the pipe to rest against the insulation on the side wall. In our case, the vibration caused the wrapping to wear through and then it melted the insulation. If the pipe had failed, direct flame would have caught the insulation on fire. As you can see, there is only screen forward and the fiberglass door so the fire would spread rapidly.
And last, if you wonder if the insulation will burn, take a look at the photo. It also puts out clouds of foul smoke that accompany the flames. Now with the plywood burned through, the flames would start on the mattress releasing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide.
While you have your generator pulled out (two 9/16" bolts/nuts), check under the generator for generator mount condition. They may look fine from above but may have failed underneath as can be seen in the photo. Kent Speers replaced his and made an excellent post with two manufactures and part numbers. See his post after using the "search" box.
Also, with the generator pulled out, it's time to check the fan belt for condition and tension. Hard to reach it but the pulley nut can be tightened to bring the two sides closer together and will tighten the belt if loose. Cracks in the belt are a no go.
Will post the Hardie Backerboard installation in Part II. I still have the side panels to finish.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 23, 2014, 04:37:43 pm
Couple of more things. If the turbo has been replaced (failed because of driver technique?), check the shop's work. In one case, the clamps on the exhaust side were not installed incorrectly and one came off. In the other, the intake clamp was not installed right, came off and the Detroit ingested lots of dirt and required new pistons/liners with a $18K in-frame overhaul.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on July 23, 2014, 07:47:09 pm
.....................The cause of the fire was never reported to me. In my mind however, it is a virtual certainty that this fire started in the engine/bedroom. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the fridge was running on AC power................................................ ......................If you want my opinion, I would advise you to be mindful of whatever insulation is between the engine and the bottom of the bed........................ ......................Other than sound, if that insulation had another purpose it must have been for heat................................. ......................I know Pierce has a coach like mine, and I'm guessing he has already put the Hardi Backer panels on the bottom of his bed. If I still had a Foretravel, that's what I'd do too.
"littledubz", Thanks for the insight. You are giving us important safety information by calling attention to your suspicions. And, thanks Pierce for the follow-up.
It's a shame that the insurance company didn't share (or more likely, didn't even try to determine ) the root cause of your unfortunate grief. I came from an industry that is obsessively focused on precision in Root Cause Analysis and the recognition/correction of important precursors. It's highly frustrating to see opportunities to learn so readily dismissed by the likes of insurance companies. Saving analysis $'s at the expense of a more noble safety goal, I assume. It's also frustrating to see precursors overlooked by jumping to unfounded conclusions (evidence 26 of the posts in this thread focused on absorption refrigerators vs. engine bay insulation). Each of us can contribute to the safety and quality of our Foretravels by just having a thorough, questioning attitude in determining the true root cause of significant incidents and events...........and then sharing the root cause with others on this forum. See: Foretravel vs. SOB Decision Analysis (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17237.msg114129#msg114129) It is very seldom that a significant event or incident occurs without significant precursors having occurred before the event. But precursors to significant events tend to be overlooked or dismissed for a thousand and one reasons. In hindsight, most of the thousand reasons are not good. Take a quick look at the Three Mile Island nuclear plant event, the 2000 Concorde crash, the space shuttle Challenger disaster precursors, if you need convincing. Those are BIG scale events, of course, but the value of a questioning attitude and Root Cause Analysis applies equally to our daily opportunities to learn from Foretravel event precursors and (through the power of the forum), the precursors can help us all avoid unnecessary safety challenges. Thanks "littledubz", and once again, sorry for your loss. Neal
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: fkjohns6083 on July 23, 2014, 10:27:20 pm
Neal ---- You'd be surprised at how very few people understand "root cause" and how to determine it. I also have an in depth working in this area and if you'd like to chat about that, send me a PM with your e-mail add. and we can share stories. Thanks and have a great day ---- Fritz
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on July 24, 2014, 04:24:41 am
Before I stumbled on the Foretravel I bought, I was lusting over a 92 Beaver Marquis with a 6v92 Silver engine with 350hp. The owner sent me a ton of pictures. There was a blanket over the turbo on that engine. How effective is that? I was surprised to see something that blanketed something that got that hot, but remember my research showed it was a GREAT item for HP increase and EXPENSIVE! How about fire protection?
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 24, 2014, 10:50:46 am
Quite a few U300s have the wrap (probably some Cummins and CATs too). It will give slightly more HP as well as protecting the turbo and pipes from insulation sag. Components close to the turbo will run cooler. From the photo, you can see the ECU is only inches away from the turbo. The wrapped fuel line is visible that goes into the ECU to cool it. Race cars have wrapped turbos for years.
Proper engine management technique is a must after a long climb on a hot day. With the insulation around the hot turbo, fast idling for a few minutes is even more important as the heat soak will really bring turbo oil temperature up as soon as the engine is shut down. Diesel pushers need a placard on the dash "fast idle a hot engine for several minutes." On a hot summer day, many diesel pushers have difficulty keeping the engine cool on long grades so operators need to keep it in mind.
If I saw a wrap advertised for a decent price, I would probably fit it to ours.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: rsihnhold on July 24, 2014, 11:19:22 am
Pierce,
I don't know what you consider a fair price but I've contacted ATP about the thermal wrap kits for my Cummins C8.3, which includes turbo blanket, exhaust manifold blanket, and a blanket for the down pipe. There are two prices for mine depending on the temperature rating of the blanket material. I think it was $570 for the 1100 degree material and just less than $800 for the 1500 degree material. They also will make blankets for your entire exhaust system piping if you provide the measurements. I'm probably going to buy the 1500 kit.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: coastprt on July 24, 2014, 11:25:24 am
Pierce,
I used Hardie board after Katrina to replace the siding on my house. It is very durable, but somewhat brittle and is much stronger after painting. How about coating the Hardie board with Noxudol 999 coating for the engine, generator, and fridge compartments. It's sound deadening and fire resistant properties look amazing and it is not expensive. Can be rolled or sprayed on. Using this along with a turbo wrap as Lon suggested, and a fire suppression system I believe you would have all the bases covered.
Sound Deadening Paint for Blocking and Dampening Sound in Industrial (http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/liquid.htm)
supersoundproofingtube - Using a Fireproofing Paint (http://www.videoviewtube.com/view/26/using-a-fireproofing-paint/)
Jerry
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 24, 2014, 12:32:17 pm
Jerry,
Excellent site! I put a layer of glass between the Hardie and the plywood hoping to get a little sound deadening out of it. Have been trying to figure out what to spray on the surface of the Hardie as it will absorb grease and oil but your idea of Noxudol 999 looks like the perfect solution. Having trouble finding it in an aerosol spray. Amazon has a lot of their products but no 999. Have you seen a source?
The backerboard may be brittle compared to plywood, etc. but I have a tough time breaking it even when I scribe a line with a box cutter. Think it will be fine in any fire resistive motorhome application.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: coastprt on July 24, 2014, 12:54:29 pm
Excellent site! I put a layer of glass between the Hardie and the plywood hoping to get a little sound deadening out of it. Have been trying to figure out what to spray on the surface of the Hardie as it will absorb grease and oil but your idea of Noxudol 999 looks like the perfect solution. Having trouble finding it in an aerosol spray. Amazon has a lot of their products but no 999. Have you seen a source?
The backerboard may be brittle compared to plywood, etc. but I have a tough time breaking it even when I scribe a line with a box cutter. Think it will be fine in any fire resistive motorhome application.
Pierce
I believe Super Soundproofing Company has it. Soundproofing Liquid – Acoustical Sound Sealant and Water Based Primers (http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/Liquid/products/20/)
Jerry
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 24, 2014, 02:25:50 pm
Jerry,
Left a message and their sales guy just got back to me. Yes, they can get it but they only carry 1301 without special order. It is more for soundproofing. The 999 is $90/gallon and goes on with a roller in three coats. Covers only 22 square feet (1301). About $15 to ship and tax for CA residents. They have nothing but complaints about the spray cans. 1301 is available in quarts, 999 is not.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 25, 2014, 12:42:03 pm
We covered our exhaust pipe after the turbo with Design Engineering Titanium Exhaust Wrap: http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau (http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau) st-pipe-wrap-kits/titanium-exhaust-wrap-lr-technology
This stuff is not made from fiberglass that gets into your skin and it does not need silicone spray after installation. No reason why it could not be wrapped around turbo if that is what you want to do. We used hose clamps to secure ends and other transitions.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on July 25, 2014, 02:02:54 pm
................We covered our exhaust pipe after the turbo with Design Engineering Titanium Exhaust Wrap: http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau (http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau) st-pipe-wrap-kits/titanium-exhaust-wrap-lr-technology
Barry, Link is broken.......has a space in it. This works: Titanium Exhaust Wrap with LR Technology 010128 | Purchase DEI, CryO2, Ny-Trex, (http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhaust-pipe-wrap-kits/titanium-exhaust-wrap-lr-technology) Good stuff! Neal
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: rsihnhold on July 25, 2014, 08:08:24 pm
We covered our exhaust pipe after the turbo with Design Engineering Titanium Exhaust Wrap: http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau (http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau) st-pipe-wrap-kits/titanium-exhaust-wrap-lr-technology
This stuff is not made from fiberglass that gets into your skin and it does not need silicone spray after installation. No reason why it could not be wrapped around turbo if that is what you want to do. We used hose clamps to secure ends and other transitions.
I've considered that Barry. What is your opinion on wrapping the turbo, manifold, and down pipe? Was it worth it and did it make a difference in your under hood temps?
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 26, 2014, 12:46:04 am
We did not wrap the exhaust manifold or turbo. Just the pipe out of the turbo down and around almost to our resonator. We also lined our engine with Thermo Tec double sided foil at the same time. So we have no idea if temps are lower.
I would be concerned about wrapping manifold or turbo, as we would be holding heat in more, and maybe getting the manifold or turbo too hot.
Titanium Exhaust Wrap was easier than we thought.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: twobus on July 26, 2014, 08:12:18 am
In my world of small displacement turbo race engines, it's common to wrap the turo hotside and downpipe to keep the heat in and underhood temps down. But diesels, running for long periods under boost, I would want to do some research first. I didn 't wrap the turbo or downpipe to the resonator. There is so much clearance in that engine room that I'm not concerned about temp, and decided I was more concerned about the wrap making more rust problems on my homebrew plumbing.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 27, 2014, 12:04:45 am
RE: > On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 Barry & Cindy Wrote:
Quote
................We covered our exhaust pipe after the turbo with Design
Engineering Titanium Exhaust Wrap:
Here you go, link fixed: http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau (http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/motorcycle-exhau) st-pipe-wrap-kits/titanium-exhaust-wrap-lr-technology
Auto stores also carry it.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 27, 2014, 10:06:48 am
With our turbo being so close to the top of the compartment, I have been looking at a lot of forums to see what others are doing. There seems to be a lot of discussion as to the advantages as far as power goes with not many lab tests but everyone seems to be in agreement that the blanket and wrap does lower engine room temperature a lot. One boat forum noted there seemed to be less Detroit engine fires with the blanket over the turbo (lots of 6V-92s in boats). There is also a question whether the "Made in the USA" cover from Cincinnati is better than the Chinese cover. Also, whether the fiberglass Chinese tape is as good as the "Volcanic Lava" tape. In looking at many engine supplier's websites, the cost may exceed $300 just for the cover. The Cincinnati cover is only $89 so less than $200 for everything out the door.
One thing everyone seemed to agree on was failure to cool the turbo, either by a electric oil pump or fast idling for at least a couple of minutes before shutting down after any kind of load will result in much higher temperatures from heat sink in the turbo resulting in a shorter life because of coking. Full synthetic oil won't coke. For one of our coaches, installing an instrument panel placard "fast idle for 2 minutes before shutting down" would be prudent after a blanket/wrap modification.
Ebay link to the covers, tapes and all the different color possibilities: turbo wrap | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xturbo+wrap&_nkw=turbo+wrap&_sacat=0&_from=R40) .
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 27, 2014, 10:48:56 am
All of the products above advertise that they are good from 1800 degrees continuous up to 2200-3000 degrees intermittent.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: rbark on July 27, 2014, 12:15:56 pm
What size turbo would be on the M 11 eng?
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Caflashbob on July 27, 2014, 12:23:22 pm
Installed manual timers in dashboards of Foretravels after seeing a trucker customers installation. Egg timer type units. After the set time the motor turned off.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: rsihnhold on July 27, 2014, 10:26:53 pm
Installed manual timers in dashboards of Foretravels after seeing a trucker customers installation. Egg timer type units. After the set time the motor turned off.
Now that I've got my EGT gauge installed, it is pretty easy to see when everything cools down to a normal idle temperature but a turbo timer would work well for people without gauges. I remember those being a big thing back in the early 90s on import cars.
Here is a link to the blankets I was talking about earlier- Transport (http://www.atpwrap.com/html/transport.html)
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: coastprt on August 11, 2014, 02:14:00 am
littledubz,
I know you are still reeling from the fire disaster and the exact cause has yet to be determined. We're all sorry for your loss and want to know what happened.
I want to raise the possibility of a coolant related fire known to happen on side mounted radiators on diesel rvs such as your U300 and mine that are also equipped with hydraulic fans. I found a discussion on another forum that explains how this could happen when a leak in a radiator hose occurs with a 50/50 mixture of water and ethylene glycol. Even with a pinhole leak the fan can spray the coolant onto the hot manifold or turbo and the water is vaporized leaving the concentrated alcohol based glycol to burn in a very hot fire at only 782 degrees. In one case a faulty bracket on the fan motor caused a leak in the radiator with the same disastrous result. Other causes mentioned were bad fan bearings, leaking injectors and electrical fires.
Sadly we may never know what happened but here's an excellent article from RV Alliance America that can help us to be vigilant and aware of the many potential fire hazards. Having fun and traveling safely is what it's all about.
RV fire safety facts that could save your life (http://www.rvtravel.com/publish/firerv.shtml)
Jerry aka Murph
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 11, 2014, 11:22:49 am
Jerry,
With a pinhole leak, the 50-50 mix could be sprayed on the hot exhaust manifold or turbo. Unless the mixture was allowed to pool and the water evaporated off, it would be unlikely to catch fire. When the mixture contacted the hot surface, the water would turn to steam and expand up to 1700 times. Since it takes a lot of energy to vaporize the mixture, the cloud of steam would lower temperatures and keep combustion from occurring.
It's doubtful that any kind of fire extinguisher by itself, would do much to keep a fuel or exhaust system failure fire knocked down. An injector leak (not a factor with a Detroit and inline 4 cycle engines have the exhaust on the opposite side from the injectors) or turbo pipe failure downstream would continue long after an extinguisher had used up it's contents. Look at the stainless flex tubing right after it comes out the turbo on the 6V-92TA. If it failed at the connection (just a clamp holding it on), there would be essentially a blow torch against the side of the enclosure. The likely scenario is the extinguisher goes off but the engine pays absolutely no attention to the failure or the fire extinguisher. Since the air intake is far away, and the failure is on the downstream side, there is no reduction of boost or power, in other words, no way of telling that anything is wrong unless you look in the mirror. By that time, it's too late.
A heat detector is needed to first alert the operator that something is amiss. If the extinguisher was triggered at the same time, the operator would have to pull over and shut down immediately or the fire would continue once the extinguisher had emptied. You would need a second manually operated extinguisher to make sure it was out and stayed out.
Our compartment roof has been lined with backerboard and looks good. It is a much bigger job finishing the rest of the compartment. Will post photos soon. Ordering a turbo blanket/pipe wrap to keep temps down.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: sedelange on August 11, 2014, 03:45:14 pm
Most fire suppression systems I have seen for diesels have a cutoff for the air. Without that a diesel with a major fuel leak would keep running, likely out of control.
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 11, 2014, 04:04:16 pm
For an electronic diesel, ECU fuel cutoff would work OK if you didn't have any false alarms. Shutting off air on a Detroit would be difficult as they will collapse most anything in the way of an air source. Also expensive to set up.
We must have had ten or more false alarms from sensors for every fire we responded to. Image a false shutdown on a busy freeway. Plus, how do you reset a mechanical air cutoff out in traffic without getting run over?
No real way for a diesel to get extra fuel into the intake. Most air sources are feet away and diesel will remain a liquid in most circumstances. We always parked upwind at natural gas or propane leaks as that was a good way for the engine to run away.
Pierce
Title: Re: Gone in 60 Seconds
Post by: sedelange on August 11, 2014, 07:25:50 pm
Most of my experience with fire suppression systems is with aircraft and boats. Both are extremely fire intolerant. Diesels in boats have engine shut offs because fire suppression chemicals will be sucked into the engine and attenuate any ability to extinguish the fire.