My motorhome needs new tires, and at the shop where I am getting some work done, the mechanic says most shops do not balance anymore. Other forums say not to use powder, but that ceramic beads are better because they don't clump. Others say powder ruins pressure monitoring system send units. What has been your experience?
Best-- balance then ON THE COACH. Yes, there are still some shops that do it-- almost a dying art.
BTW, best to start by checking run-out. If more than .035" out of round fix that first (or have the tire trued-- another almost lost art).
Another option is one of the permanent balancers such as Centramatic: http://centramatic.com/Home.aspx (http://centramatic.com/Home.aspx)
Brett
I along with many others I know use Centramatic Balancers. Install them one time and forget it. Take them with you on the next coach, no problem.
Gary B
Thanks a bunch for answering. I watched the video...very dramatic, but...given that the imbalance is a function of mass, velocity & radius, I am not sure how the hub-sized ring can balance a very heavy tire when the balance ring is small relative to the tire.
Anyway, which method do YOU use? I've been reading numerous posts by you, and you seem to be about the most knowledgeable guy on the forums. So, your opinion carries a LOT of weight (with me).
Another thing to look for in balancing these big tires is how they are mounted. An old tire man and a FT owner showed me the trick.
First the tire has to be mounted with the SPLICE opposite the valve stem and the tire has to be mounted with plenty of lube and the little raised ring around the tire perimeter should be evenly spaced from the rim edge completely around the rim.
Also, Some more info about your coach, year, length, model etc and a name would help us all help you.
Gary B
Millions of truck owner operator miles taught me this. Have the tires trued.. (it's true its a lost art but worth the effort to find someone) Even new tires are not perfectly round. Then have them balanced on the coach. Again as stated above not common anymore but worth the effort.
I say this with all due respect, the centramatic balancers don't work as well as the above. I bought 10 of them and after six months (50K miles) I put them in the garage and went back old school..
How is the tire balanced on the coach? Do they use a special machine or just spin it?
Do not think michelins have a carcass splice.
Bob, All tires have a splice somewhere, it may be hard to see but the layers of material have to joined somewhere. Go by a tire shop and ask to look inside a tire I bet you will see it. The splice is the heaviest point of the tire, may not be much but its there.
Gary B
Look close at a michelin. I understand they do not have a splice. The steel inner casing is one piece woven.
Lots of tires do although. You could see the splice in the sidewalls of tires built that way long ago.
They had a "dimple". And the hard spot started to effect ride quality as the tread wore down.
If y'all have nothing better to do here is the NHSTA bible on tires. mainly auto and light truck but informative anyway.
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/PneumaticTire_HS-810-561.pdf
Gary B
Good info. No I did not read all 700 pages.
Only reason I mentioned the michelin construction is it used to be in their ads starting with their michelin x radials long ago.
ALL good truck tire shops balance tires, and in fact new balancing systems have a 'drag' feature to better simulate on road driving. We would never consider anything inside tire to balance for lots of reasons including marketing hype, clogging valve stems. We have balanced all 6 tires, but have also only balanced fronts. We never rotate as every wheel position has different wheels and dismounting to balance is not worth it for our coach. And our XZA3+ tires just don't wear.
Don't forget to consider FMCA Michelin Fleet Discount as it offers a consistent standard very good discount. Worth joining FMCA to take advantage if it.
Also very difficult to have a truck shop use a torque wrench to tighten lug nuts and some will over torque and 'yield' bolt threads, stretching them a bit.
Done been said but worth repeating for future new motor homers... Never pour or put anything inside a tire for balance or any other reason... All that goes inside is air.
At risk of starting another "opinion" dare I say Nitrogen :))
Just search, its all there
Sorry all ;D :D
Since the atom of the smaller components supposedly leak thru the rubber faster than nitrogen, wouldn't repeated servicing with air result in only the nitrogen remaining?
I'm going to politely ask that if you want to talk about nitrogen, PLEASE search the forum - it's been discussed many, many times over. :whistle:
This topic is supposed to be about tire balancing...
I have had seven RV'S and I have used EQUAL in all with no problem. The thing that I can advise is to have a tire shop that knows how to in stall Equal. As far as the beeds clogging the valve that is wrong. When you install the beeds you change the valve core. The new valve core has a screen that eliminates the chance of any beeds coming back up through the valve. You once install Equal you never need to balance your tires again. Smooth as glass. IMI ? Commercial Tire Products and Solutions (http://www.imiproducts.com/) Good Luck
Nobody seemed to answer my question from above: how do they balance the tires installed on the coach?
Have seen balancing tires mounted on axle, yes, they spin the tire up to about 70 mph, using a strobe light on a sensor that flashes when the heavy spot hits on the chalk marked tire. A person that knows how & where to add weight can smooth out the whole rotating assembly. It takes a savoy mechanic to get it right.
The down side of this type balance, if you have to make any changes to the wheel, remount, need to rebalance again.
Like any other opinion, depends on how you think, some love it, some like me prefer a balance on a road force balancer, then mount on axle.
My experience shows a good balance can be done on the old bubble balancer IF you know how using 4 weights, does great on about 99 of 100, sometimes you get a tire that has a dynamic issue. Have seen bad dynamics that equal & the fancy/expensive rings could not fix, why I have no use for that game, usually done by tire shops that are clueless or too cheap to buy the good balance equipment.
Do the feel good thing.
When I had new Michelin's installed I was told that they did not need to be balanced. I insisted that all the tires be balanced including the fronts that have the balancing rings.
The tire shop used stick on wheel weights (a bunch of them) that are stuck to the outer surface of the rim. They don't look very good. Something tells me that this was NOT the correct approach. Weights on the horizontal plane of the Alcoa rim not on the rim edge ( I always remember wheel weights being on the outer rim of a wheel, at least on cars).
The entire tire installation was a disaster, so when It was done I high tailed it out of there to get the stuff they broke fixed at another shop. Eventually I will deal with the wheel weight issue (if there is one other than appearance). I don't have any issues with a out of balance tire.
They raise the front wheels off the ground. Then use an electric motor-driven wheel to get the coach wheel/tire up to speed. They use a strobe to determine where weight needs to be added. The shops that do it make a point of putting a glass of water on the front bumper. After balancing on the rig, with the tire going 70 MPH, there is not a ripple in the surface of the water.
This is becoming almost a lost art. You can take a Bubba and teach him to use a computer balancer in a matter of minutes. But not so with the "balance on the coach" method.
The beauty of the "on the coach" method is that all rotating masses are in balance. That brake drum/disk and hub are over 100 pounds. So, not surprising if they are out a couple of ounces.
Brett
Lon, No need to add balance weights when you have BALANCING RINGS ( Centramatic Balancers ) in fact they may work at cross purposes.
Gary B
PLUS the fact that the wheels
do not have to be removed from coach. Automatically eliminates the possibility of cross-threaded nuts, broken studs, and incorrect torque, etc. Seems very worthwhile to seek out the remaining practitioners of this art. Any recommendations?
Question: does this method only work for the front tires, or can it be applied to the "duals"?
Fronts only. At least I have never seen or heard of a way to do this on the rear axle. Should be able to do it on a tag though.
Centra-Matic balancers.
They are made right here in Alvarado TX.
If you buy them here, they will install them free at their truck shop right next door.
+1 on Centramatics. PO had them installed on our coach just before we bought it (Thanks John!). Ride is completely smooth at
every speed! Not magic - but on a decently round tire they DO work.
Ditto for the Centra-Matic balancers..
I've used them for years and been very pleased with them.
But, if you do not care for CM's.
Insure you have a good rim (to start with) and go from there.
Mount the new rubber and be prepared to remount (if it is not concentric,) next true it, (then) if you are lucky enough to have found a dynamic balancer with an operator that knows his stuff (which is rare) you are good to go.
Nothing.. will balance an out of round tire. pc
Will be down in NAC next spring for some work and will also need new tires. Does any one know what balancing method Herman Power uses for new tires?
Herman Powers uses a spin balancer with lead weights. Make sure that the person that is balancing the tires knows what he is doing. Make sure that the person that is putting on the weights, cleans the rim so the weights dose not come off down the road. (The installer my friend had was very poor). Good Luck
Brett,
I agree, and the highlighted section is what most people do not consider or thoroughly understand.
I have contributed on this information before. Ride quality 36 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=18435.msg126918#msg126918)
I hesitate to even contribute again as those that don't want to know, will just get "spun up" by engineering facts and "Laws of Physics" again. And those that have properly used powders and Centramatics already have a good experience and understanding.
But once again:
Indirectly, through my son and his trucking company, I had been watching their experience with Centramatics for years. They have over 1.6 million miles on their uses (New Peterbuilts, 80K (+) payloads), and he swears by them. He's tried many tire brands, but "down time" for them is "lost income" so after several poor experiences, he now uses only Michelins. He no longer spin balances any tire and has only praise for the Centramatics. If he receives a tire from a dealer that requires physical balance weights
(beyond the Centramatics) to come into balance, it goes back to the tire dealer to be exchanged for one that doesn't need any physical balance weights.
He had been trying to get me to use Centramatics for years, but I didn't care for the looks of them (they are slightly visible through the Alcoa hand holes). I had always used Michelins, balancing powders, proper valve stems, cores and either nitrogen fill or CO2 fill. I never experienced any tire balance or valve stem problems. However, while using powders, I did get tired of having to be vigilant, EXTRA careful, to not introduce any moisture into the tires, either during the mounting process (the excess tire mounting lubricant that is "slathered" onto the rims and the seating beads of the tire) or in the "airing up" of tires during long term use (NEVER use potentially moisture laden air from an unknown air quality source in a service station or even a tire dealership). FT air is good (on-board air system), most service and tire dealerships is bad. Small amounts of moisture cause powders to clump and become less or even largely ineffective.
I succumbed to my son's urging when I changed our Michelins in July of 2011. I was amazed at the silky smoothness of the Centramatics, at all speeds and under all driving conditions. I always attributed early morning roughness to the tires taking a slight "set" while parked, then going through a "warming up period", then flexing into a "driving rhythm" while the tires ultimately came into balance with the balancing powders. Some of that may be true, but with the Centramatics, the tires seem to be in silky smooth balance under all speeds and all conditions. There is no "morning warm up" any more. And unlike a loaded or unloaded "spin balanced tire", it is in balance at all road speeds, over the entire life of the tire, not just at the RPM (and load and time) at which it was balanced. Modern spin balance machines average the "out of balance condition" over a range of rotational speeds. Then a recommend compromise weight, that improves the balance the most throughout the target range, is specifically located on the tire (which may or may not be possible due to the tire and rim configuration). Often weights must be split and located either side of "light" spots.
It is highly important to understand that spin balanced tires are only optimum at the exact time of the balance. All tires dynamically change over time and all tires tend to go out of balance. That's why routine rotation and balancing of car tires significantly improves their feel and longevity (generally done each 5,000 miles).
Long ago I was trained in Bear Alignment/Balancing equipment and in the dealership, where I had college employment, I did much of the on-car dynamic balancing as well (electric motor spun tire and stroboscopic speed/weight placement control). I've also attended Hunter Road Force seminars and used their equipment "On-car" balancing was far more expensive for a customer (slow and tedious by comparison to spin balance machines) and was generally discouraged except in problem cases.
And "posi-traction" drive axles were not eligible. Thus, if the need arose, both front and rear rotating assemblies were generally removed and spun balanced on the Bear machine, rather than trying to balance them on the vehicle. It is relatively easy to make a glass of water on a dash become ripple free with a proper dynamic balance (on or off the car),
but only at one rpm, on one day, at the current rotating mass conditions. Tire/wheel/drum rotating assemblies go through varying degrees of (generally small) "out of balance harmonics" as they increases or decrease from the balanced RPM. Those small "out of balance" tire conditions aggravate tire changes and also tires change with age (long term heating effects, current temperature, parking footprint hardening, current moisture content of the tire compound, not to mention improperly attached/subsequently-lost balancing weights, etc.).
So the important engineering and laws of physics factors are:
Both time and normal tire and rotating assembly usage will gradually add imbalance to a tire/rotating assembly's weight distribution. The smallest change in distribution of weight within the rotating mass will gradually aggravate the condition and cause permanent tire damage and annoyance.
Conversely, as long as the rotating mass is reasonably close to being true, using steer and drive axle Centramatics will achieve a true, full-rotating-assembly-balance, at all RPM's, over all time, each time the rotating mass is brought up to rotating speeds over some minimum speed (which is around 20 MPH). Below 30 MPH, minor "out of balance" conditions are neither noticeable nor a problem in creating uneven tire wear.
I have about 27K on the Centramatics on our coach now (out of about 147K -- adjusted for VDO readout failures). I can't foresee that I would ever go back to powders or weight balancing.
Just follow the one caveat. If a tire is, for whatever reason, significantly out of balance, the Centramatics only have a certain range of compensation. Centramatics will make reasonably good tires OUTSTANDING. But they cannot make a rotating mass problem, or a badly mounted or a bad tire good or even acceptable, without some physical weights to bring it into range.
If the Centramatics don't balance it, I would do what my son does and take the tire back to the dealer to get a good tire instead.
I hope this is of some value to you.
Neal
Thanks Karl. I'm not committed to Herman Powers and sounds like it may not be the best choice, so, does anyone have a recommendation for a tire shop in the Nacogdoches area that does a good job?
Is the Centramatics part numbers for my 97 u320 600-630 and 600-640?
Thanks bob
A good contact is Greg Power as Greg & brother Frank own Herman Power tire in Nacogdoches. (Herman was their Dad)
We have purchased all of our motorhome (Michelin XZA3+) tires with Greg. His shop has some higher tech truck size dynamic (spin) balance machines, that while spinning press a roller across tread to simulate road contact. They then put lead weights to correct out of balances.
Bob,
I don't see why your '97 wheels wouldn't be the same as our 1998 U270:
1 set of 2, 600-630 Centramatic (Steer Axle), 22.5" Wheel size, 10 bolt pattern, 11.25" bolt hole diam.
1 set of 2, 600-640 Centramatic (Drive Axle), 22.5" Wheel size, 10 bolt pattern, 11.25" bolt hole diam.
In July of 2011, $450 for the two sets, drop shipped from TX factory to NH (vs. $495 locally).
Neal
Neal, 96 and up wheels should be HUB PILOTED while those before were STUD PILOTED ( BUDD WHEELS )
Gary B
Thanks Gary.
That's what I was recalling, without looking it up. So Bob's are the same as mine.
Neal
Thanks guys. Raced(sort of) and empty trucker on the freeway to near 80 and noticed the vibes from the unbalanced wheels a bit.
Would you remove the wheel weights as you install the centrimatics? Or just install them?
Ordered. On Sale.
When installing the Centramatics remove all weight's and balancing powder. You can probably leave the powder til next time tire is off. I did.
Gary B
In the FWIW department, we're having a bunch of stuff done to our just-recently procured 2008 Nimbus at Nac. One thing is all new tires, purchased through the FMCA program, at Herman Power. HP asked if I wanted them to balance the tires; I'm always in favor of that. I checked with Foretravel and was told Foretravel would rather balance the new tires themselves as they have a special way of balancing for their coaches. I don't know what that is, and did not get into it, but assume, as they built the thing, they know what they're talking about. I suppose we'll see.
Raleigh
Ralph,
ASK. If balancing the fronts on the coach, that is the best way (in addition to verifying that run-out is less than .035").
Foretravel will balance it in the coach. You can have HP deliver the tires to FT and they can install and balance. That said I had HP balance and install my tires in Januaryand they put on the last set too.
Herman Tire may be the only Michelin (authorized) dealer in Nac. An authorized dealer may be needed to use the good FMCA discount. Talk with Greg Power and share your concerns, as it MAY help.