Craig there are some interesting options for a smarter regulator for the alternator, both internal and external. The internal ones may void any warranties if the alternator has one as you have to do some soldering on the inside of the alternator. I bought one of the external models, just waiting until I get a chance to the new inverter and solar stuff installation. This is the one I bought...
Don
Sterling Alternator-to-Battery Charger / 12 Volt - 210 Amp (http://baymarinesupply.com/store/electrical/chargers-inverters/sterling/sterling-alt-to-battery-charger-210-amp.html)
That makes a lot more sense than a couple of diodes on a heat sink.
Don, did I read you right that with the model you got you do not need to touch the present (internal) regulator for the Sterling to work? Sounds and looks interesting to say the least.
JohnH
That is correct John. There is an interesting video that discusses the concept on the link in my post on it. Also, it won't affect the ECM and cause a check engine light on these electronic engines. According to the literature, some of the ECM's will have a fit if they read a higher voltage than expected from the alternator.
Don
I emailed Sterling and they just got back to me with info and manual. Here is the PDF file if anyone want to read it.
JohnH
Am I seeing this correct, it takes the place of the isolator? ::)
The Sail write up was informative ^.^d did not see in any of the info if its waterproof, like some isolators. It wouldn't stop me cause like brett said, some can move this to under the bed using the same cables.
Yes, in the basic setup it simply replaces the diode isolator. And it is not waterproof.
Although geared for marine use, it should work very nicely in an RV.
I would like to see an RV model with 4 stage charging for both banks of batteries and an engine maintainer built in. And little need for a second alternator, unless someone here has a twin engine coach.
I do like the temperature monitoring of batteries and alternator, but don't understand the bit about reducing alternator voltage. That might be to protect the engine battery from overcharging.
And does it charge the house battery from the alternator or from the engine battery (possibly even without the engine running)?
Looking at Sterling's website, they appear to have all the bases covered.
All they need to do with this produce is add one of their battery maintainers and one of their desolators inside the box, keep engine batteries under voltage control (which might already be there), and eliminate the second alternator input ... then sell this in the RV market.
Im NOT an electronic jedi master as some are.
Dumb question , will it interact with my solar array?
I guess I'm close enough, except for the Jedi part,
It will co-exist nicely. It basically acts like a very smart isolator, sending power to the house battery as needed and acting like another 4-stage charger (just like the two you already have, one in the solar charge controller and one in the AC inverter/charger), and preventing the house power needs from draining the engine battery.
So they claim.
Thanks Master Jedi, one more question. Do I still need my charge controller? Pretty sure my solar on-off switch is connected directly to the house battery.
Here is a copy of his comment on solar-as that was also my question.
"Hi, John -
Sorry for the delay - we're taking (most of) the weekend off.
The alt-to-battery chargers have a separate output for the starting battery, which would make the splitter unnecessary in your configuration. You'd just bring the alternator output into the charger, and add a cable from the charger to each of the two battery banks. The owner's manual is attached - there is a digram on page 8 for your setup.
Side note on the isolators - the older style diode isolators drop the voltage about .6 volts, which keeps the batteries from getting completely charged. If you need to use a splitter for the solar or a 115v charger at any time, there are a number of relay-based options that pass along full voltage" end of quote.
You can get all the info you need by just contacting them with your question. I am thinking of using this and have to read the paperwork etc first. My solar does a good job of charging and is set up to give short bursts of 14.8v to the AGMs every 4 weeks to top up and yet not really equalize them. been like that for 3 yrs so far so good.
JohnH
John,
Was thinking that our RV alternators are identified as such and put out higher voltage to make up for the isolator drop so will keep the batteries at full voltage while driving. I'm usually around 14 volts on both sets while going down the road.
Pierce
Pierce,
No, they are just externally regulated with the sense wire on the battery side of the isolator and its voltage eating diodes.
Brett, since you are into boating, have you seen these units or know anything about them, and what is your take on it?? The video gevs a good overview and I like the small time set up-simple- and his candor. Must be good if it was designed in the UK ^.^d ^.^d
JohnH
Yes. The solar charge controller provides the correct voltage to your house batteries depending on need. Still needed when the sun is shining, unless you have a very small solar panel.
Thank you ^.^d Did anyone see the price? Couldn't find it ::)
900watt Seimens 8)
John,
Here is what we use on the boat-- a smart regulator to control a high output alternator: http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/alternator-regulator.aspx (http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/alternator-regulator.aspx)
The list price is shown on the page linked in my post at the top for Bay Marine Supply. This is the minimum advertised price, but if you add it to the cart you can see a more attractive price. No connection, but I have bought quite a few high dollar items from this site and always received excellent service. If (Alan is the proprietor's name and he has been or is a full timer living aboard his sail boat) he doesn't know the answer, he will call the manufacturer an get it... And then , actually call you back! Very refreshing in my experience :D
Don
Got it thanks Don :facepalm:
Does that alternator protect the batteries with a temperature compensated 4 stage charging profile? If yes, there is no need.
There are always opportunities for "a better mouse trap". The forum encourages discussion of alternatives, especially if they offer additional benefits/improvements.
Looking at it a different way, since the horse and buggy worked so well, why do we need Foretravels :-*
I hear where Michelle and Dave are coming from. Sure is nice traveling down the road in a deluxe apartment where you don't have to dig a trench around the tent to keep dry at night and can watch the Dodgers play on a huge TV. On the other hand, the complexity of today's RVs have brought the prices down to a few pennies on the dollar once it's a few years old because of the cost of maintaining aging complex components. Imagine owning any late RV without a support forum like ours.
I remember a Mercedes Diesel out of the 1960's that I owned. You pulled a knob out on the dash with a rod connected to the injection pump, glow plugs and starter motor. In cold weather, you just held the knob in the glow position longer before pulling it further to start it. No timer, no micro processors, just your fingers and common sense. Also reached down to a handle to move the seat back and forth and used a crank to open and close the windows. Nothing ever went wrong with that car.
Pierce
The answer to that is "no". The "regulator" part of the Leece-Neville alternator system is extremely rudimentary. I think that several days of big miles could do some damage to some battery types.
I shut down the solar panel array (by tripping the circuit breaker in the closet) when we start the engines. I would actually prefer to shut off the alternator and just charge both battery banks (house and start) with the solar panels but there are some issues with shutting off alternators that are still rotating.
When we are parked, even with 50-amp, I typically let the solar panels do all the charging. I think that the Classic 150 is far more sophisticated than the Progressive Dynamics shore-power charger/converter as far as when to go to bulk mode and anti-sulfating.
Craig
I see no need to ever shut off the solar charge controller. If the engine is running and charging the batteries, the voltage will be above the threshold for the MPPT charge controller to go into float mode (or less), basically idling.
Our Classic 150 adds at least .5 to .8 volts to the alternator voltage while driving down the road. In daylight. ;D
Pierce
Some more info.
The last 2 days I have been talking to Alan (Bay Marine) about this Sterling alt/charger and as Don pointed out a very easy guy to talk to and within hours gets back to me every time.
So hopefully on my suggestion he will be joining our Forum as a commercial member and is open and willing to answer all your concerns etc as they come in. I feel he will be a very knowlegable person to direct electrical issues etc with on this part of our systems.
he is also willing to give a Discount to anyone wanting to purchase anything they sell.
There are 2 levels, 10% off Sterling items (code ffsterling)
5% off Magnum items (code ffmagnum)
These codes are entered after you open an account then on the shopping cart when you enter your state, put in the coupon code.
Here is part of his comment to me on solar and Alt charging and another page (link) to items he is talking about. Other than this once he joins ask him all you need to know.
Battery Isolators / Galvanic Isolators (http://baymarinesupply.com/store/electrical/wiring-25/isolators.html)
His comments,
As to combining your charging sources to the same battery bank, that is remarkably trouble-free. Battery chargers in general play well together, as long as they're set to the same battery type. Connecting the house and start batteries presents a few choices.
Ruling out the diode-type isolator, there are relay-based ones from Sterling, and FET-based ones from Victron. They both do the same thing as the diode units, with added logic to prioritize the start battery and so on. Unfortunately, they also cost more, though the Sterling ProSplit-R ones aren't too bad (not the ProSplit-D, as in Diode, though).
Another option is to charge the house bank, and insert a relay between the two banks to connect them when a charging voltage is present. In your case, that would mean they were connected whenever the sun was out, your engine was running, or you were plugged in to shore power. There are a number of them, including the Sterling ProSplit-R on this page.
When sizing a battery-to-battery relay, it needs to handle the greater of (a) the potential charger output, or (b) 1/5 the amp-hour rating of the smaller battery for wet cells, or 1/3 the amp-hour rating if it is an AGM
Hope you all understand this post.
JohnH
re- your comment Craig on shutting down solar. I have never needed to do that and I concur with you on letting the solar do all charging when parked. The only time we are "connected" is if I know Ruth is going to be doing a lot of Microwaving or something that will use up our batteries quickly, but that has not happened for over a year. I sometimes plug in to 120v here at home if I am going to use power tools at the coach as here the coach is parked under/close to large Ponderosa Pines and even though it may be sunny for 1/2 the day the coach does not see it.
JohnH
John,
Two charging sources like an extra alternator could each charge it's own set of batteries, one house, one engine, with a latching solenoid bringing the two together in case of one of the alternators failed. Latching solenoids don't draw any juice unlike our boost solenoids. Would do away with the isolator entirely. A smart voltage regulator(s) would still be a good idea.
Pierce
Dave, no apology necessary... This is the kind of question that is good to ask yourself about changes made to working parts. Or, put another way, what about this "upgrade" gives you the warm fuzzies? I can only speak for myself, but I plan to make our coach as self sufficient for dry camping as I can manage. To that end, I am installing a more capable inverter, solar panels and associated hardware, and a LiFePO4 battery pack capable of putting out about 800AH of usable capacity (1000AH). I have no plan to ditch propane and so would not really be able have 4th 8D battery to get more usable capacity. I could add one more (though would need to buy three because the two we have are approaching 6 years old), but one more would only result in about 350AH of safely useable capacity. Just not enoug in my mind to justify the cost up front. My bet is that I can assemble a 1000AH LiFePO4 battery pack for less than 4K, or about twice the cost of three premium AGM's (Lifelines). That will net us more than twice the useable capacity for slightly less than twice the cost of the conventional route. The other factor in the value equation is the number of charge cycles (which should be at least 2000) that the LiFePO4 and how quickly they can take a charge. So with that kind of investment in a battery pack, $330 seems like a good value to me... anyway, makes me happy :D
Don
Speaking of warm fuzzes...that is what I like about the Sterling regulator. I recently bought three new LifeLine 8D batteries for the house and three Optima batteries for the engine. I don't mind protecting that investment. Which is exactly what the Sterling regulator would do. I already have a very nice AC charger built into the inverter/charger with all the smart charging circuits to prevent an early death to my batteries when on AC. I also have a very nice solar charge controller that does the same from the solar panels. This leaves me with the not so smart charger called the engine alternator and voltage regulator. It will happily pump excess volts into all of my batteries all day long. The Sterling regulator would bring the engine alternator up to the same level of smartness as the other two chargers. The funny thing is that my old 1988 SOB had a switch on the dash that would disconnect the alternator from the house batteries when needed (the engine battery had to fend for itself).
That said, I probably will not go with the Sterling regulator. My original Gel 8Ds and Optima batteries lasted 11 years. They couldn't have been harmed too much to have lived longer than their expected life span.
I say probably because ... if the diode isolator ever goes bad on me, the added cost to go with Sterling instead of another diode isolator is not too steep.
I like the idea of Lithium but I have to admit that $4 coach-bucks makes my eyes water a little bit. I wonder if high-voltage/high-current charging might not be more damaging to non-sealed wet-cell batteries than it would to sealed types (of whatever persuasion). I wish I knew a lot more about battery technology... I know that a lot of it is not much higher than chipping obsidian to make arrowheads but I've just never really paid all that much attention to it.
I started turning off the breaker between the solar charge controller and the solar panel array when it tripped while we were driving. This is a 30-amp breaker on a circuit that has two series-connected panels rated at 8-amps on it. That made me go, "Hmmm". It's easy enough to hit the breaker until I have a better understanding of what's going on in the system (it's still in a state of flux while I scope out how to deal with the two Unisolar panels).
(Right now the Unisolar panels are out of the circuit and I am considering creating a completely different solar charging circuit for just these two - in parallel - in order to explore ways of improving shadow damping.)
But the two wet cell 8Ds (I may have mentioned that they are conspicuously labeled "hecho en Mexico") seem to lose lots more electrolyte than I would have expected (at least a liter every month). Especially in view of how seldom I have to add electrolyte to my pickup's battery bank (two smaller batteries) which have started that Dodge's 1994 5.9 Cummins just fine for the last ten years. In technical terms, "something is going on".
I agree with Don's idea to make the coach as efficient as possible for dry camping. Nor do I want to get rid of propane entirely. Or the generator, for that matter. I just don't want to have to actually *use* the generator. And Tom's remarks about protecting his battery investment make a lot of sense to me; even though my investment in them is not all that great right now the clear need for better ones looms large in my future.
The technical competence on this forum is a joy, I have to say.
Craig
Craig, if you still have the original charger/converter I would suggest that this is the issue with the electrolyte loss and some help with the alternater also.
Made in Mexico is not the problem as I know you are aware of. They are made to other countries standards/requirements just the labour is the cheaper part. I suggest 90% of what you buy is made offshore.
JohnH
I don't have the OEM charger/converter... the first upgrade I made was for a PD unit with the charge wizard. And they *still* lose electrolyte faster than I think they should.
One of the reasons I started only using the Classic 150 for charging all the time was to see if the electrolyte losses are reduced.
Craig
Good for you, so that should be one thing out of the way for solving problem. Have you checked voltage going into batteries with engine at 1500rpm and with a full charge in them already?
JohnH
Craig,
When I talked to the Midnite factory, they advised to install breakers on both sides of the Classic 150 controller. In order to turn on the system, I flip the battery side breakers on first and then the panel breakers. Backwards to shut down with the panels off first and then the battery side. This avoids arcing. Check your Classic 150 display voltage readings against a digital voltmeter at the batteries. The voltage is then adjustable on the 150 control panel if different.
Check battery voltage at all stages of the charging cycle. Most battery manufactures will have bulk, absorption, and float voltages listed on their website and these voltages checked against what your seeing with yours at the batteries. Do you have a temperature probe mounted on the batteries? Typical conventional batteries will rapidly boil off and be damaged above 125 degrees. Once the hydrometer reading indicates full, the float/maintenance voltage should be immediately down to factory recommendations.
Harbor Freight has a tiny high frequency 2 amp automatic charger (about $20) that should keep batteries up without loosing electrolyte. I keep one connected to our engine batteries plugged in and feeding from the wet bay bus panel. Would be good for the house batteries also but the OEM charger seems to keep ours right at factory recommended voltage.
Pierce
The 2025RV showed over 14vdc battery voltage while we were on our way (7 hour trip) two weeks ago. That shouldn't really boil out a wet-cell... maybe 30 days at 14vdc but the dang things wanted water.
I'll try to check the water levels in the next few days after only being on the Classic 150.
Pierce: the Classic 150 will always show about 1/2 of the battery voltage (in our case, 5vdc) even with no power from the solar panels. Apparently that's standard. It can probably be dialed out but I haven't tried to do that yet.
Craig
Pierce, I also put a breaker either side of my solar charger and batteries. Same way to switch off as you do and they are 70 amp breakers with #2 wiring from panels and battery bus bar.
JohnH
Craig,
I was talking about when you have sun on the panels and it's indicating, say, 14.2 volts. A digital voltmeter at the batteries might indicate 14.7 and the Classic can be user adjusted to indicate the same number of volts as an accurate digital voltmeter. The adjustment is for the LCD display only and does not effect the actual voltage output.
John,
I was thinking that was a good idea when they mentioned it. If the controller went berserk, started smoking or worse, it could be quickly shut off with the flip of a switch.
Pierce
Alan of Bay Marine is now a Foreforums Commercial Member (member name Alan) - we look forward to adding his knowledge to the great discussions here ^.^d
Since we set both solar charger (Morningstar) and coach charger (Xantrex 2000) to charge house batteries with similar charge-profiles, we found that one of the two chargers can fool the other into thinking the batteries are fully charged. So we now turn off our solar circuit breakers (on panel-in & battery-out cables) when plugged into shore power like we are right now at the Elks.
We initially used a lower voltage solar profile, to eliminate the above confusion, but found that solar charging took longer at the lower set-voltages. Now we find it easier to turn solar off & on as needed. Breakers are on bay wall under Morningstar.
I gather as I only allow solar to do the charging and if the inverter was on I will turn off that charger on it so we do not run into the problem you mention Barry. Just a silly question (maybe) but if you are plugged in why worry if the batteries are not full due to this querk between the two systems as you are not really using the batteries anyway are you?? Once you unplug it should get back to doing it correctly?
JohnH
Hi, All - I just found this thread, so I'll try to add to the discussion on these chargers. And thanks for the kind words from those who I've been in touch with.
Tom is right - the alt-2-batt chargers are not waterproof or splash-resistant. Mount inside, and they should have some air for cooling. The larger ones have fans that run as needed, the 130 amp model does not.
The short story on how they work is that the unit simulates a deeply discharged battery, lowering voltage enough that the stock regulator puts out full amperage. The charger then behaves like a regular multi-stage battery charger, but with 12VDC input instead of 115VAC. The output to the chassis battery is passed, untouched, through a separate circuit, so as not to annoy the engine control module.
On whether a lot of these are on boats - some, but they're much more common on motorhomes (and Sterling does design a lot of their stuff for "caravans", as they call them in the UK). Boats don't usually have ECUs, so advanced regulators are more common, cheaper, and even in some cases waterproof. That said, if the alternator doesn't have an external field terminal, the alt-2-batt charger is a lot easier to install.
I think John's right about the battery production coming from just about everywhere. Johnson Controls (Interstate, Optima) has plants all over the world, with most U.S. supply coming (I am told) from both the U.S. and Mexico. Trojan, U.S. Battery, and East Penn (Deka) all claim U.S. production, so it's probably more likely that your deep cycle batteries are homegrown than your start ones. That said, the actual manufacturing process isn't rocket science, and I've seen 8 year old Mexican batteries that were going strong. If memory serves me, I saw a battery that was Trojan's distictive case, with an Interstate label and "Made in Mexico" on it. Interstate was selling Trojan batteries for a while, but I can't help but wonder if it was the other way 'round. But then again, my memory is a little defective.
- Alan
Based on this:
The short story on how they work is that the unit simulates a deeply discharged battery, lowering voltage enough that the stock regulator puts out full amperage. The charger then behaves like a regular multi-stage battery charger, but with 12VDC input instead of 115VAC. The output to the chassis battery is passed, untouched, through a separate circuit, so as not to annoy the engine control module.
I don't want one in my coach. The alternator will be putting out a higher than usual voltage, directly into the chassis battery, all the time the engine is running. This cannot be good for the health of the chassis battery.
I probably should have said "as needed". No, your alternator wouldn't be putting out maximum current forever - it would have no where to go. The alternator will definitely feel the load when the house batteries are low, and then it'll lighten up as they become charged. The chassis batteries get - in theory - a very slightly lowered voltage initially, rising up as the house bank becomes full. In practice, the voltage at the chassis battery varies very little from stock.
The alternator will not be putting out higher voltage at any time because, well, it can't with the stock regulator. It's set to try to achieve a constant voltage at all times. It can be lowered with load, but not raised. The amperage, of course, can vary, but only based on the load.
Hope that helps.
- Alan
The link 2000r optional intelligent VR for the alternator was available in 1997. Matches the heart freedom 25's stages if memory serves me.
Long discontinued. Anyone have the parts?
Balmar.net has Duo-charge and Multistage Regulators.
OK, Don, have you installed the smart charger and how is it working out. Did it go as easily as the on-line directions?
We had a cruising Trawler for 12 years. We had the same isolator and alternator setup as our Foretravel except the isolator was two input and three bank output and we had two alternators. One high output and one standard engine alternator. All batteries were Optima starting and Lifeline AGMs for the house bank and inverter bank.
We had no smart regulator or other high-tech improvements. We traveled many trips where the engine was running for 48 hours without shutting down.
Our batteries lasted in excess of seven years.
I am sure that the high-tech regulators and other improvements are a great improvement, but they are not necessary for battery life.
Larry
Larry,
The smart regulators (we used them on our sailboats) do two things-- one probably not of as much interest in a power boat:
Shorten recharge time, as they start in BULK mode/higher voltage and amperage. Particularly on offshore passages where fuel was not available, this was a real advantage. Of lesser import but still significant was reduced recharge time while at anchor. Particularly in the Abacos, Bahamas where we have spent several winters, diesel was $5/gallon and we dingied it out to the boat, conserving diesel was important.
The other thing a smart regulator help with is to reduce voltage to FLOAT level once batteries are fully charged. Yes, it will extend battery life. Can't tell you by how much. Was happy to have it when becalmed in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico so motored for 49 hours straight.
On a motorhome, we are probably into "fine tuning". A place gear heads will probably go.
On our Foretravel I achieved much of the second attribute by replacing the diode-based isolator with a Perko marine ON-OFF switch. Alternator output and chassis battery to one lug (so chassis battery always charged when engine running). House battery to other lug. Switch off= chassis battery charged, house battery "rests". Switch on, both batteries charged and no loss due to diode-based isolator. Of value in extending house battery life, particularly when driving all day and staying in CG's each night. Why "hard time" a house battery bank at 14+ VDC all day when there is little or no draw on it.
Brett, You are correct. We were a motor all the time boat. And, we had a 700 gallon fuel tank. During our three and four month trips to the Bahamas we never had to purchase fuel. Our fuel burn was 1 1/2 gallons per hour.
We also had an 8 kw Westerbeke diesel generator. We had a 40 amp smart charger for the house bank and a 60 amp smart charger for the inverter bank. Our inverter was 2000 watt, no charger. The engine alternators were 70 amp and 130 amp.
Like I said, our set up was like the Foretravel setup. I see no need to "fine tune" the electrical system on the Foretravel.
As you have stated, during long runs the batteries on all banks were being charged. However, in our 12 years of long range cruising I never saw any detrimental affect on the batteries. I may have just been lucky.
I have Nigel Calder's and Charlie Wing's electrical books and am familiar with all the high-tech regulators and alternators available for the marine environment. I just never had a real world need for those items.
Larry
Larry,
I had it with me, but I sold it to John H. for the Forum price (and no sales tax) since I had decided to wait until I got back to Pio Pico to put it in anyway. Actually lost a few bucks on the deal and California will benefit because I will have ended up paying tax twice, but what the heck... John was incredibly generous in letting me use his pit and great company to boot. I will get another one when I get back to SD from Alan of Bay Marine Supply. Also getting some new 4-0 battery cables etc. from him for my inverter install. Of course I will post when I get around to those projects.
Don
Larry,
Nigel Calder is a very interesting character. He pretty much speced a custom built a Pacific Seacraft sailboat. We custom built two of their boats-- both Crealock 37's.
I installed one of these in place of the Diode-based isolator: Combiner 160 Sheet (http://www.yandina.com/c160Info.htm)
It also has built in over-voltage protection for the gel batteries. If a switch is added, one can also force the relay to close or force it to stay open.
Another benefit is it will charge the coach batteries when the house batteries are being charged on shore power.