I have three lifeline 8D AGM batteries on my "new" coach. I was led to believe they were only three years old. Unfortunately, they are at least six years old. Regardless of age, they are toast, falling below 10 volts shortly after charging to float stage with the generator on.
I am planning to replace them with three new lifelines, but am investigating alternatives. That great RV resource, Batteries Plus in Tulsa, will replace them for $2,200 out the door. Their location is not real RV friendly, and I do not have the warmest, fuzziest feeling about their expertise with RVs.
Owasso has an Interstate battery dealership. They would order the Lifelines, but can only get them with the flag posts; mine now have auto tops. Has anyone used Interstate 8D AGM batteries for their coach batteries? Do they work satisfactorily?
Interstate has also agreed to install them for $75 total if I have them drop-shipped to their store. I have found several places to buy them on the internet, but most will only deliver (some for free) to a commercial address. If anyone has bought the big Lifelines on the internet, I would appreciate if you would share your experience.
I have researched the foreforums history and saw some mention of replacing the 8D's with a couple of yellow tops (each). Interstate sells the MT7 AGM, which has a four-year full replacement guaranty. I discussed this option, but I would be giving up too much amp-hour reserve.
Bottom line is I need to pull the trigger pretty soon and would welcome any advice from *anyone* on this forum.
Thank you,
Trent
I ordered 3 8D gels to replace my batteries, which have the same symptoms, from the Trojan distributor in Houston and mine are costing me around $550 each.
Check our oreillys and ask about free install
Go to Craigslist and use the search box for "solar batteries" or similar search words. They will have several different sources and types. After getting acquainted with all the possibilities, go to RV, solar or battery forums to see what others have done using the batteries you have found and how it's worked out. Takes a little time but a good way to get up to speed. This is what I did and have been very pleased with our system. Our battery bank cost less than 10% of what businesses wanted for the same exact battery(s). Some luck involved but aside from saving money, it is a good education.
Pierce
I got my Lifelines from AMSOLAR in Oregon a few 3 yrs ago and have no problems with them so something in your charging circuit is obviuosly wrong (IMHO) I would have the alternator checked out as that may be putting out too much and make sure the inverter is set for AGMs. Maybe the dip switches were set up prior to these Lifelines for another type and if the inverter is Equalizing them consistantly that is a bad thing. These things should be checked out and reset if needed regardless of the type you finish up with.
JohnH
Best long term results are deka AGM's according to my 30 year Rv electrical guru.
Nine years in a 24 volt Angola bus prevost conversion was about normal according to him when he replaced all four. Two were still useable sort of.
Installed them in our coach. 20% discharge they are good for 5,000 cycles.
See MK batteries deka cycle chart.
50% discharge was 1000 cycles or was it 2,000?
Used the flag style terminal as with new ends anyway was easy to convert.
They are perfectly sized to go with the 130 amp hour charge rate heart charger and the 160 amp alternator.
Expect ten years use at least as I have a 130 watt solar panel to charge them in storage.
Cut no corners on batteries IMO. THE most important part in the coach.
I just replased my two 8d gels with dekka 8d gells, cost was $1275.00 installed. Your price seems high.
2 gels for $1200 = $600 each incl labour, so 3x 600= $1800 and AGM cost more so I would think Trent's cost pretty close to correct. I paid for 3 in 2011 $1500 and Batteries (good ones) have gone up.
JohnH
I found batteries plus to be the cheapest. They will also pay you for your core. I bought three 8D gells there for 1500 and got back 300 for my old ones.
Trent, Your 3 house batteries are wired in parallel, which means one bad battery can draw down the other two. I would disconnect the batteries and try to charge one at a time finding the bad one(s). Your coach will easily run on 1 or 2 batteries. And if you don't dry camp, you can just buy 2 batteries to save $ and create less heating in battery area, prolonging all batteries.
By far the majority of Foretravels have used 8D8G GEL batteries manufactured from East Penn / Deka. They make the same GEL & AGM batteries in identical cases with different labels, with MK being the most well-known. These batteries weigh about 150 lbs each.
Our coach was made with space for two batteries and we have only used East Penn / Deka GELL 8D8G batteries. We have bought our East Penn batteries from CarQuest & NAPA, who will order them from their warehouse and have them in a couple of days. Our costs have been $400 - $500 each. O'Reilly may also carry East Penn, and all the auto stores stock them in their warehouse with their own label. One CarQuest store's warehouse was out of 8D8G and had East Penn's warehouse deliver East Pen labeled batteries to the CarQuest store for our purchase. They are all the same inside with different labels outside.
Different sellers have different 100% & pro-rate warranty periods, which may also account for the different price at different labels.
Our 2012 batteries from NAPA were $507 each, which they said was their lowest price for their larger customers. Auto stores are noted for having a wide range of selling prices for different customers, something that makes one want to say they are from one of the big customers.
Definitely replace your AGM batteries with AGM batteries. While some still seem to prefer Gel batteries, I've read as much information as I can from a variety of sources, and it appears as if AGM is the superior technology at this time.
I replaced my old 8D batteries at O'Reilly's. They ordered the batteries, I took the coach in, and a couple of strong young guys quickly changed the batteries. Yes, I was right there watching and answering their questions. As I recall the cost was about $450 per battery.
Cycle life of gels vs Agm is 50% less.
See the MK batteries website and look at the duty cycles.
I would think most Foretravels replace the oem AGM's with duplicate AGM's not gels.
But money is money. Wrong place to economize IMO.
When I replaced my house batteries last year, it was suggested I contact the battery seller who advertises on the Prevost forums. I did, and he gave me a very good price. He called back to give me an even better price since he was at a Prevost rally and had a rally price to offer. He could have had them shipped to me for a very reasonable price, but since I am close to their factory, I had my mechanic pick them up and do the installation.
These are LifeLine AGMs with the automotive posts, but they are available either way.
Last month I re-batteried our 270 with two AGM 8D's for the house when also adding 400W of solar on the roof. You also might consider the start batteries. I purchased 3 (although 270's only come with two, but the battery rack has room for three) because I live in a cold climate and want no problems starting when cold outside. Having all the batteries AGM makes the charging and control of the whole system easier. Internet 8D AGM's for $600 delivered to house. Ad showed they were made in China, paperwork said Vietnam. They are heavy! Asked for performance and specs, got three pages of info. I am happy and ready.
Caution: I had to replace the post connectors with flat bolt-on types. This was a good thing as several of the "clamp" type had been overtightened and did not actually do the job.
I visited the MK website. They seemed to be pushing gels versus agms. I think I recall reading on this forum that agms are better for our application. The agms seem to get at least twice as many cycles as gels and gels are more sensitive to charging voltage.
Or am I misunderstanding (again)?
BTW, if a cycle is a charge and discharge event how many cycles occur if, during a travel day, I stop two different places and then proceed on my trip?
Thanks,
Trent
Maybe they are inventory heavy on gels? Seriously you coach came with AGM's for a reason.
This is the same old Ford vs Chevy argument. I happily use Gels and have my coach/charger set up for them, with Yellow Top AGMs doing the starting. As my coach came from the factory. I haven't done anything except likely replaced my GELs earlier than needed. The AGMs are 12 yrs old (original batteries) and the GELs are 9 years old (I didn't know any better and listened to folks who told me I needed to replace the old GELs at 3 years.
Everybody has an opinion, and neither the AGM crowd nor the GEL crowd have the right answer for everyone. Take your pick, just like Ford or Chevy.
It is true that (nearly) everybody has an opinion, but it's not quite the same as the "Ford vs. Chevy" argument. Ford and Chevy both use essentially the same technology, while Gel and AGM are different battery technologies. Therefore, it's important to read as much as possible on the subject, and then base one's choice on the best available information.
X2 for O'Reilly's. We did exactly the same as David. (2) Super Start AGM8D's at $450 each, installed for free by the store manager and his burly helper. I took care of removing and replacing the cables - all the big guys had to do was handle the heavy lifting. ^.^d
Brad, I am sure you know this but all battery makers suggest you keep both banks the same style for safe charging--unless there are seperate charging systems.
ie- agm-agm or gel-gel
JohnH
According to the specifications sheet, our 2004 U270 36' came from the factory with gel batteries for the coach and AGM batteries for the chassis. It still has gel batteries for the coach and AGM batteries for the chassis. I have wondered why Foretravel did that knowing that battery manufactures and other parties have stated that which is in the above quote.
You and me both, plus there are other instances were FT did something that makes me wonder about their thought process ie the Rolock issue at Bulkheads for one.
JohnH
Bob, if it (was) a financial issue that would make me wonder even more about the quailty build of our coach's. Surely another couple hundred bucks on top of the original cost of them would NOT have been an issue. I think it was other thoughts, or lack of them!
JohnH
I may have said this before but I'm going to replace the 2 8Ds with wet-cells; the start batteries are new red-tops. We have at least 2 years and perhaps 4 before we will be able to snowbird and by then the technology may have changed significantly. I have chargers that take significantly better care of wet-cells than the devices that came on my coach and that should help. We'll be watching how this all shakes out.
Craig
I agree. It was not a financial decision. Our coach came with three Optima Yellow Top starting batteries. Optima Yellow Tops are not budget batteries.
Perhaps when they built these coaches, GELS were considered to be better for deep cycling. They have certainly stood the test of time with many reporting more than 10 years of service. Also, the house batteries are charged by the alternator through the isolater do they not? The voltage drop of .5-.7 volts or so would seem to make them work together well as configured from the factory.
Form an East Penn document regarding their AGM & GEL batteries;
Also, IIRC, Gels used to be more expensive than AGM's and better for slow discharge scenarios. As always, could be wrong... I for one, do not think Foretravel skimped on the batteries but supplied the best available for the purpose at the time. The kind of thinking that includes all wheel Air Disc brakes and a transmission retarder across the product line does not try to save a few bucks on consumables like batteries, IMHO.
Don
Hi
I run across these 6V AGM Batteries. I for one am unable to lift the 8D batteries and adding the O'Riley guy to our entourage may create some challenges.
So what do you guys think?
http://www.atbatt.com/amstron-gc2-6v-agm-deep-cycle-battery.asp (http://www.atbatt.com/amstron-gc2-6v-agm-deep-cycle-battery.asp)
My understanding is that both the house batteries and the starting batteries are charged by the alternator through the isolator, which means that
both sets are charged through diodes and therefore see the same voltage drop. This--if nothing else--means that it makes sense to use AGM batteries for the house batteries, since AGMs require the same charging voltage as do the starting batteries.
I am guessing they went with the best available at the time, Optima for the engine and Gel for the house.
I am also guessing they went with three Optimas instead of an 8D for the engine to make it possible to isolate a battery and possible to get them easily and quickly swapped out in the field.
I really cannot complain, as the original batteries lasted over 10 years, including some accidental over discharging with the shore power knocked out.
When I did replace the batteries last year, I went with LifeLine AGM 8D for the house at a Prevost rally price and got the Optima set for a steal on the web. If I were to do it over today, i would go with another LifeLine 8D in place of the Optimas, although the Optimas are doing very well.
My only issue over the years was when I had to get a new regulator put into my alternator somewhere around 2006-7. Off the shelf, it was set to around 15 volts. I took the alternator back off and had them lower it to 14.0 in deference to the GELs once I realized what was happening.
So my system is basically set to the GEL needs, which are, granted, a little low to get a maximum charge into the AGM start batteries. The 3 AGM Yelowtop batteries have had a Trik-L-Start attached to them for about 8-9 years of their 12 year lifespan, and every year I am amazed that they continue to start the coach without the boost switch. Once I am satisfied that they can do that, however, I use the boost switch to be kind to them for the rest of the trip. They can die at any time and I'll feel that FT made a good choice sticking Yellowtops in where all documentation tells me they should have skimped and just put the less expensive Redtops in there. I was going to replace them with Redtops last year, but the longer they last, the more I think I'll buy Yellowtops. About a $25 per battery difference, the last time I looked.
It is interesting how temperature effects how much voltage the batteries should receive. I was in Abiline (on the way to FOT) and got stuck in sub freezing temps for several days. I saw the Pro-sine pumping 14.2 or 14.3 into the Gels and got worried. I called Xantrex and they guided me to the temp/voltage table and I was reassured it was all ok.
Without causing dissent here my internal current and then sources mentioned QC and construction issues. No money
Yes. I should have checked into the manufacturing date to see if AGMs were available then, maybe not. I too dropped the charge rate of alternator down a touch even for the Lifeline AGMs we have as it too was pumping out a bit high for them (Wyatt's tip at the time).
I would never think of putting wet cell's in that bay as I have seen enough mess made by them in other units that I do not want in mine, plus the upkeep. Having solar and researching all the well known companies supplying those systems also highly recommend AGM over others, so that too was a help in my decision.
JohnH
Sorry guys but this thread has what I believe to be incorrect information like:
Incorrect Quote #1: AGM batteries will cycle twice as many times as Gel batteries.
Wyatt's answer: All the research and experience that I have has convinced me that a properly maintained Gel battery will provide about 20% more (yes more) cycles than a properly maintained AGM battery. However, the Gel battery is more easily damaged by high charge voltage and destroyed by equalizing. If you do not want to adjust your charging systems, dont buy Gel.
Incorrect Quote #2: replace the old GELs at 3 years.
Wyatt's answer: This comes from someone who has a Gel battery which was badly abused by being charged at the normal 14.6 volts, or equalized. When I bought my coach in April 2010, the Freedom inverter/charger, which many of you have, was set to start in "Equalize Mode". It was pushing 100amps into fully charged Gel batteries. MOT load tested the batteries and indicated that they were good for service. Wyatt's test revealed that the batteries had only a quarter of new amphour capacity. I gave them away and they were used in a house for another four years before they failed completely. I was not willing to carry around 165 pound batteries which had a capacity of 60 amphours each.
I currently have two 4 year old Lifeline AGM batteries and one 12 year old Gel battery. When fully charged, the Gel provides 50% more amps to the inverter than either AGM. When 20% discharged, the Gel and AGM batteries provide the same number of amps to the inverter. This is due to the different technology between Gel and AGM and that the internal resistance of the Gel is lower which means less heat when charging and higher voltage when under heavy load.
Wyatt's opinion: the Gel is king but is fragile and requires special care, such that for most Folks, the AGM is the most practical choice.
Regarding the mixing of AGM start and Gel coach batteries being a mistake by Foretravel.
With a coach configured like my 1996 U320, where the start batteries are behind the passenger rear tires with short battery cables, while the coach batteries are just behind the front tire on the driver side with 30 foot long battery cables, AGM start with Gel coach batteries works very well due to the voltage drop on the 30 foot cables.
I love your posts Wyatt.
Thanks!
Here is mk's battery chartS on the DEKA 8'd's
What is the measured voltage drop in the 30-foot cables when the batteries are nearly fully charged?
Are those charts real or marketing hype?
Whatever. I got a great deal on Lifeline agm 8ds last year. We will see how long they last.
I agree that the Lifeline agms are good otherwise I would not have bought them, but I also read and trust Wyatt's comments as he is one person who does his work testing and explains it in simple short language that us none Engineers can read.
Plus he is Canadian >:D >:D
JohnH
Yes the charts are accurate. I use FAA Advisory Circular 43.13-1b and it has charts and formulas.
The charts appear to be real. However, they tell only part of the story. While Gel batteries are recommended as being superior when repeated deep discharges are required (and they are charged at the proper voltages), they don't perform as well as AGM batteries when high current is required, they don't perform as well as AGM batteries in colder weather, and they require a lower charging voltage than do wet-cell batteries and AGM batteries. Therefore, while they are superior under certain conditions, AGM batteries are superior for typical motorhome applications.
And the good news for me is that I rarely draw the house batteries below 80%, so a long life is to be expected. Before I added the solar panels, this would not have been the case.
By the way, when one of my original gel batteries developed a problem after 10 years of faithful service, I shopped around for replacements. I was determined to replace them with another set of GEL, not AGM. My plans changed when I was led to the seller offering discounts on Lifeline batteries on the Prevost Community, at that time he was offering an additional discount because he was at a Prevost rally. As I was placing my order, I discovered Lifeline only made AGM, no GEL could be had at this price.
Deka gels are rated to minus thirty degrees F.
Borrowed two nine year old 8g8d's my guru was replacing in a prevost as two showed bad on two different testers.
The other two I borrowed both tested ok. I used them for six months.
If I did not want the 675 amp hour max capacity for three I would have kept these as they still had almost 200 amp hour capacity.
My buddy normally rotated them in the bus to equalize the wear as the cabling was not exactly lenght but with a back injury and no help he stopped the rotation at about five years old.
The alternator at 160 amp and the heart freedom 25 130 amp charge rate match the three 8G8d's very well.
No massive current draws in this use.
Guru buddy made up a three? 8g8d MK battery system to power the ducted a/c's on a fifth wheel for late afternoon and up to midnight use with no generator. But the batteries in plastic boxes with tops and bottoms. Entertainment/party trailer used in a specific gen hour dry camp area.
One night use. Recharged upon return.
He said the customer liked it a lot.
Left chart is the gels temp chart. Right is Agm
Ended up in 1988 at -32 degrees overnight at breckenridge on Christmas skiing.
Two New flooded cells 8'ds Volts measured 12.5? Zero amps. Every thing in the coach dead.
Major fun to light the 3208 and gen.
I am super cautious since.
Almost thought about battery plate heaters for the optima gels for the engine start and the house. Not planning on that again.
X3 for O'Reilly's. I never would have considered them until y'all started talking about them. Went by there this afternoon, and they agreed to sell me three of them at $400 each. They will also remove the existing Lifelines and install the Super Start AGM 8D's tomorrow. My bottom line is much less than I had expected.
Time will tell whether these will perform as well or not. The specs are about the same as the Lifelines.
Thanks to everyone who provided input and advice.
Now, back to the alternator problem; then the A/C fan belt; then ....
Trent
Concorde, who makes Lifeline and Sun Xtender batteries, as well as other battery brands (such as for aviation), manufactured Gel batteries for many years but now believes that AGM technology is superior and no longer manufactures Gel batteries.
After leaving the trickle charger on over a two day period the bank of three batteries started the engine right up as ususal. The charger still saids to ck batteries. If they start everytime I will wait for service to have cked by a professional. If one of the batteries ck bad then I will replace all three myself. Appears Sams has the best price on the optima battery which is #34 RedTop. About $149 and amazon has about same with free delivery, but with Sams I can see the date of mfg before buying. DAN
When my original Optima batteries were five years old, one of the three developed a shorted cell. It would start without using boost, but only for a few hours after being charged. The bad battery was draining the good ones. I discovered the cause by disconnecting them and measuring individual voltages...one came up 2 volts short. With the bad battery taken out, I ran very well for a time before installing a blue top I happened to have on hand. I went another five years before needing to replace the whole set.
Hi
Regarding the Optima batteries how do you guys use it and which one to the House and which one for the Engine.
What is the advantage over the AGM 8G8D
Thanks,
Ted
Are your batteries under the step or in a compartment next to it or??
The best way to figure out which is which is dissconnect one of the nuetrals on 1 battery only then see what does or does not work. Try to start engine or at least turn fey on. If it all lights up you know you have removed the House one or reverse.. My old 93 225 had one 8d for each function.
JohnH
I got nine years from three Lifeline 8D house bats. In my case I bought three new Lifelines. But I feel I could or should have done more testing, as I may only have needed one. That was five years ago. This discussion makes me better informed next time around.
Learned to only replace energy storage devices as an exact set. Best results are if they are rotated regularly to equalize the wear on each battery and to equalize the cabling as much as possible.
But we prefer dry camping and near perfect batteries lead to less gen run time and noise and smells and fuel and gen maintenance costs
If you're west of the Mississippi, here's another place to call for prices - Battery Systems - The Single Source Solution! (http://batterysystems.net). They're mainly a wholesaler but will sell to the public. I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the forum could arrange a group discount. I've also found that golf cart shops have better prices than automotive - worth a call.