I stopped for diesel fuel in Big Spring Texas on our last leg before we hit our home base in Lakewood NM. When I tried to start the coach no dice. Thought it was the aux start relay. Got under there cleaned off the connections tried again no dice. Jumped the solenoid coach started but I toasted my starter. I pulled out the schematic for the aux solenoid now here is the problem. The schematic shows several wires connected to one side of the solenoid. Only one wire on the other side, the wire that goes to the starter. My solenoid had two wire on that side one that has 12VDC on it all the time. The coach has been running this way since we have had it. Seems like it should have toasted the starter a Lon time ago. So the mobile mechanic and I decided that that wire should be on the other terminal so we put it there. When we did I the coach ignition switch was in the on position at all times. Have no clue where this wire is supposed to go and can't understand why the starter did not toast itself a long time ago. My understanding is that the starter is powered only in the start position. What am I missing. I replaced the aux relay because it was no longer functioning. Still waiting to get a starter installed. An yes I am still on the fuel isle, not my idea of a great campground.
I wish I could help with the starter wiring but cannot. I am not sure that looking at my wiring would help on your engine?
But you affirmed an important lesson I read just recently on the forum, and am now....from your experience...more determined. I will not shut off the engine while fueling. I will go park.
I had thought I needed to shut it off if i was to let it low idle for a goodly time, what I read and was told. Anyway, someone not long ago admonished about leave it running, they had had the same experience.
Thanks for sharing.
Roland, was your boost switch in the on position when you found 12v to this "extra wire"?
Cleaning the aux start solenoid contacts would not have affected the start solenoid under dash as this one (aux) runs off the coach batteries if I remember right. ( now it is a long time since I looked at the drwgs and do not have any here) so I may be wrong. The reason I ask is that maybe it was mistakingly put on this terminal instead of Boost solenoid. Did your boost work before as it should have?
JohnH
I always use boost to start the coach, habit. As far as I can tell it worked fine, and as the boost solonoid is next to the aux start solonoid I can see that KT is on the correct side of the solonoid.
Roland
To clarify I am referencing the aux solonoid on the isolator board. It is labeled an aux starting solonoid, and according to Fore travel it is made specifically for them. Parts claim that the NAPA solonoid won't last 90 days. I only need it toast 250 miles
Roland
Roland,
Assuming you have the U280 12V electrical schematic. If not, I will send you one.
Solenoids generally have two large terminals and one or two smaller terminals. If two smaller, one is ground. Yes, one big terminal is hot all the time. As soon as smaller terminal sees +12V, the solenoid allows high amperage current to flow across the large terminals for as long as you hold the key in the start position. If the solenoid is located on the starter, it will not look like the ignition/boost solenoid. It will supply juice to spin the starter motor and it will also move the starter gear to engage the teeth on the ring gear and spin the engine over.
Here is B.Beam's excellent description: http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/starter_engage_circuit_wiring.html (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/starter_engage_circuit_wiring.html)
I don't have the A-4752 remote start wiring diagram.
Pierce
Yes I have the schematic and yes that is the way I understand a starting circuit to function. What I cannot understand is how it worked with a hot wire on the starter terminal. The starter should have burned up years ago. Unless that wire goes to a relay that is stuck closed, but that doesn't make much sense either. A mystery and it won't get solved until the hot wire is traced to its source. Don't think I will be shutting down on the duel isle in the future.
Roland
The large cable connected to the starter is probably connected to the starter solenoid so it looks to be part of the starter (which it is). The other end of the big cable goes to the positive side of the start batteries so is always hot. Make sense? Wish I were there.
Starter solenoids do occasionally stick and fry the starter. If you jump the large supply cable at the starter to the other side, you can see if the solenoid or starter is bad. Just be careful doing it. Jumping to the small terminal from the supply 12V at the starter should activate the solenoid. If not, it's bad. A auto parts store will have a remote hand held starter switch good for testing the solenoid. Good way to be at a distance and avoid the sparks.
If you have to replace the starter, I'm sure other Cummins owners will give the best advice for types of replacement. Geared or direct. Again, depending on where you are, I like the mom and pop electrical shops over the exchange units from Autozone, etc.
Pierce
I understand the layout of that panel with the boost and Aux solenoids on it along with the circuit breakers for AC relay and remote start. They are both easy to rust out etc, but if you think there is a problem with aux solenoid you do not have to go buy a new one just take apart the old one and fix. Screwdriver and hammer is all you need to open then pliers to close again. I have done this a few times now and they all work as should. This is not hard to do and they are very simple in design.Your problems sound like it is something else.
JohnH
Roland,
I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything unique about either of the solenoids on the isolator panel. It is best if they are rated for continuous duty, and sufficiently high amps to handle the load. Something like this would do fine:
Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee - (http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/168/24213/)
Unless you drive around all the time with your BOOST switch on, both solenoids should only see occasional intermittent use, and therefore they should last a long time.
Attached is our start sequence list.
I am not clear where you are finding a hot wire and if it is a large diameter battery feed or a smaller signaling wire.
Both Aux relay/solenoid (which is a common solenoid and not built for Foretravel) and starter mounted solenoid have hot engine battery cables.
On ours when Aux is energized by start key position (small wire) the Aux closes and flows engine battery to starter's small wire, which closes starter's solenoid allowing engine battery current to crank starter.
Our Aux solenoid also sends current to our fuel shut off solenoid pull-up coil, which we put a relay on to crank engine without fuel to get the oil pressure up before engine firing.
John, my aux start relay on that panel was/is bad. I bought a relay at NAPA. I am not in a place where I can rebuild/fix the old one. I did remember your posts and will fix it and put it back in.
Chuck, it was Foretravel that told me that relay was built "special" for them and that the China relay would only last ninety days or so. Will keep the China one for a spare after I repair my old one.
Barry, my aux start relay on the isolator board has two wires on the starter side am done is always hot. I don't know if I have another stuck relay somewhere but it seems to me that there should not be a wire that is hot all the time on that side. The schematics shows only one wire on that side of the relay and that goes to the starter.
Roland
Roland. I believe that always hot wire goes to your alternator exciter post through a square fuse to the left of the solenoid. And it should be always hot.
I had one time on my trip from Massachusetts to Arizona when I got no response to the ignition switch on a hot restart. A chat with James T focused on the aux start solenoid, where upon the coach started with no further action. This is the first time this has ever happened in eight years of full-timing.
Needless to say, I never turned off the engine at fuel islands the rest of the way! I carry a spare solenoid, but I can't imagine trying to change it lying on a hot engine in 90 degree heat. Should I change the aux start solenoid now or wait for another no start? Will a solenoid become erratic before it quits all together?
Brett, my suggestion after working on a few of these solenoids now is YES, either change with new or do as I do and take it apart.
These items are in some crazy places and the weather affects most of them, and especially the relays and circuit breakers next to them for AC etc etc. These are cheap insurances and should be protected from moisture etc.
This issue of problem solenoids has come up so many times that I cannot understand why every owner of a 5 yr old and older FT does not take (or have taken off) these and fixed/ replaced.
It is going to let you down one day and best be while in your driveway or at FT etc
JohnH
Ongoing saga, we finally arrived at our home base in NM. However getting here was quite interesting. After Anthony rebuilt and reinstalled my starter, the starter would spin but the coach would not start. Still stuck on the fuel isle. Whatever happened back there destroyed the fuel solenoid. Anthony said he could hook it up so the coach would run and I could get to NM for our appointments. He mechanically closed the solenoid and the coach started right up, and we headed "home". Got here parked the coach turned off the ignition and the thing is still running, had to undo the makeshift solenoid latching device. Now have to find a Cummins Power Club dealer to get me back to original configuration, including a new starter. Fun never ends.
Twig, I have an "exciter" wire on my alternator it works fine and this "mystery" wire is not connected to anything at present. I have no idea how this worked since we owned the coach, if I put it back where it was the starter continues to crank with the key in the on position. If I put it on the other side of the solenoid the dash stays lit with the key in the off position. My thinking is that. It goes to a relay somewhere that is messed up and the best guess is it has something to do with the fuel solenoid..
Roland
I am glad you are out of the fuel line. I will say this is not the first time i have seen this happen, well not a starter but a coach in the fuel island not starting. I do not shut my coach down till I am ready to stop for the night if I am driving all day. It is a habit and it rarely idles more then a couple mins as I fuel up or walk the dogs and I usually travel 8 to 10 hours in a day.
Congratulations on making it back to the home base! Problems are far easier to resolve when at home instead of on the road.
Roland, did you have your AC on when this problem happened as there is a relay on that board that controls ac and comes thru a 15amp circuit breaker to one side of solenoid. It also has a 15 amp circuit breaker on that line too. Just trying to get my head around this problem and remember what is part of that panel.
JohnH
It is a standard procedure to use cable ties to hold up fuel solenoid to start and then cut them off to stop engine. We did this for several weeks before we could buy the new larger replacement solenoid. No need to make it a priority.
It sounds like the Aux solenoid was staying closed, either by a bad solenoid or a malfunction on a small start wire before Aux solenoid. Continuous closure of this solenoid will put continuous 12 volts to starter and fuel solenoids, which being designed for intermittent short shots of power, will burn out.
Fuel shut off solenoid has one ground wire and two 12volt wires, one to the pull-up coil from Aux solenoid, and one to the hold coil from Ignition.
We put a relay on the pull-up coil wire and with a dash push button, we have the option to temporarily keep power from pull-up, allowing us to crank a cold engine for several revs to allow lub oil to flow before firing. We hold button in, hold key to start, then let up on button switch.
Did you really sit at a fuel fill island for days? Did they mind or want you to be towed out of the way?
If a relay or solenoid goes bad (especially a smaller one like the aux start). A nice jumper wire or even a screwdriver can save the day.
I don't recommend doing the screwdriver trick on the starter for the main engine though.
I've run into a similar problem a couple of times now. In both cases I had started the coach, let it idle to build up the air, take in electric, etc., then moved it a short distance and shut down. When I went to start I got nothing. The first time Pierce diagnosed (over the phone) a poor connection. I took all the battery connection apart, cleaned them, and reassembled. Fired right up. The second time I knew what to do. I took all the battery connections apart, cleaned them, and reassembled. No start. As I fiddled with it I noticed (again) that the center connection point where the main ground cable leaves the battery seemed to be loose. I'm going to order new positive and negative battery cables this weekend.
Barry yes we were on the fuel isle for forty hours. Not my idea of a good camping spot. And yes the manager knocked on my door and told me he needed that pump pumping fuel. The pumps are monitored by the district office and if they don't pump at least 10 gallons in a 24 hour period all hells bells break loose. Sure enough the district manager showed up unannounced the second afternoon. Explained the situation to him, showed him the texts to and from the mobile mechanic and he was gracious and let us stay, meaning he did not call a wrecker and have us towed away. We were at a Murphy station in Big Spring Texas, needless to say I will be using Murphy as much as possible in the future.
Roland
There is another 93 U280 Unihome owner in the park in Lakewood. Although he does not have the same engine, he has the Detroit, and he does not have the SE, I crawled under his coach and looked at his aux starting and boost solenoids. The aux start solenoid has only one wire on one side of the solenoid where mine had two.Don't know where this wire comes from but I will be looking for the other end. I cannot understand how everything worked with that wire on that side pf the aux relay. Sometimes I think I may have hallucinated the connection, but when I look at the diagram I sketched out before I disconnected and cleaned everything it confirms that I am not hallucinating. And it will absoluteley not work with that wire hooked up ANYWHERE on that aux start solenoid.
Roland
John, my AC does not work. Had FOT look at it twice and it lasted a couple weeks both times. We run the generator and roof air if we need cooling. Long story short, no the AC awitch was not on.
Roland
I am thinking of perhaps replacing the fuel solenoid myself. The wires are really toasted so I will have to cut out the fried wires and splice new wires in. When I look at it it does not seem like rocket science. Has anybody done this themselves and are there gremlins hiding in the closet?
Roland
All fuel islands have signs that instruct to shut off engine when fueling. I have always done this. No More. I will not shut the coach down while fueling. We do not usually shut it down when we take a break either.
Roland
I just replaced my fuel shutoff solenoid recently. Purchased the new unit on eBay. Not a difficult job, but I did run into a problem with the throttle cable bracket. The new solenoid and the new bracket that comes with it fit perfectly - no problem there. HOWEVER, due to the larger size of the new solenoid, my throttle cable bracket would not fit. On my engine, it is held by two of the same bolts that attach the solenoid bracket. Basically what I had to do was modify the throttle cable bracket so it could be moved "inboard" (toward the injection pump) about 1/4". This required drilling 2 new mounting holes, and removing some material from the bracket. Not a big deal - can be done easily with basic hand tools. Your setup may be different, and you might not have the same problem. Just thought I'd mention it.
Photo of new solenoid (Cummins part # 4089574) and modified bracket below.
I'm just like you, Roland. All my life I have shut off my car or truck engine when fueling, because that's what I was taught to do. But since buying the Foretravel (my first ever diesel powered vehicle), I have noticed that most truck drivers (big rigs) do
not shut off their engines while fueling. I just made a fuel run to the local Flying J yesterday, and observed that 9 out of the 11 trucks at the fuel pumps had their engines running. Also, at the truck pumps, I did not see
any signs saying "Turn Off Engines While Fueling". Like you, I am going to change my procedure, and leave my (diesel) engine running. I see 2 benefits: first - I avoid the exact problem you had with a very inconvenient No-Start. Second - in the summertime, it keeps the dash air going (ours works) for the comfort of the crew.
One other thought - on the big trucks, the fuel tanks are in close proximity to the (running) engine and hot exhaust pipes. On our coaches, the engines, exhaust, and most other obvious ignition sources are separated from the fuel tank by the length of the coach. Which makes us "safer" in this situation, IMHO.
If I recall when I replaced the Fuel Shutoff Solenoid on my 8.3 the first time it came with a new bracket that fit the new style. The second Solenoid fit easily.
Gary B
Gary - Correct - photos of contents of box:
When we had starting hesitation problems, one of the things we did was to change everything on the isolator panel, other than the isolator itself. New relays, circuit breakers, solenoids. Cleaned up all connections with Dremel wire brush. Not hard to do. Used ordinary parts, including not expensive continuous duty solenoids. We added Trik-L-Start and fuel shut off delay, moved alternator battery sense to new fused wire directly to start battery.
I think you guys are chasing the wrong problems if you have slow/problems starting. The system is not that complex and was designed well.
My batteries are a few years old, I don't use boost, don't have a trickle charger hooked up (yet), and I went and cranked it over after sitting 3 weeks (I went to crank instantly, didn't wait for the inlet heater) and it cranked up in 2 cranks.
Cleaning up the isolator board is preventing a problem versus chasing one. The components on that board are exposed to all the splash and crap from the rear tires. After twenty plus years it needs a bit of attention. May take Brett's approach and move thee board under the bed.
Roland
Roland
Roland, exactly, that is called "preventitive maintenance' and is sound thought for such a simple-cheap job. If you do the service of solenoid as I mention then the total cost of other parts is around $20.
What is not good about that? While you are at it cut a piece of rubber or? about the size of panel and fasten it to top edge so it hangs down over these electrical items giving it at least some sort of protection from spray etc.
JohnH
Or move all of it up under the bed like Brett did.
Pierce
We chose not to relocate the components on the isolator board, but do have it all covered in clear heavy plastic to help it ward off rear tire splashes.
And after all of our new components, we still had some start hesitation. Even though we had previously had the starter rebuilt, the only thing that completely fixed our start hesitation was a new starter, Delco 10478818 12v 41MT
I guess in 1998 they moved all these components to up under the bed. I lean over the 120v ATS with the bed up to reach my Aux start solenoid and A/C condenser fan relay, etc.
Ok, I started on my repairs yesterday. I cleaned off all the contacts on the isolator board and the alternator. I wired the isolator board per the schematic, well almost.The mystery wire is white all wires going to the battery side of the aux relay are red per the schematic. I haven't traced that wire yet but I suspect it goes to the fuel shutoff solenoid and should be on the battery side. Should be getting my solenoid on Monday or Tuesday so next week will be devoted to the fuel shutoff solenoid and its wiring. I cleaned off the connectors to the start batteries, installed new batery terminals applied dielectric grease and buttoned up that section. Have to return to the isolator board and apply dielectric grease on those connections. Enough time to watch some football.
Roland
I received the new solenoid today. I need to fabricate a pigtail as I melted the connectors on the fuel shutoff solenoid. I cannot find a wiring diagram for the fuel shutoff solenoid in my documents. Want to make sure I get this right. Anyone have that wiring schematic?
Roland
Hey, I just found the "typical" wiring on Beamalarm. Google brought me right there.
Roland
OK the mysterious white wire goes to the aux start solenoid and is on the starter side. This energizes the coil that fully opens the fuel stop solenoid. Mine was "hot" because it was shorted out. Should have the new solenoid in tomorrow and this adventure will be finished.
Roland
It is a very satisfying feeling when you finally figure out the solution to one of those electrical "Puzzles". Congratulations!
Roland, are you saying your aux start solenoid was stuck closed, which burned out the two solenoids? Or was something earlier in the starter circuit causing the aux to close?
Barry my original problem was a bad aux start solenoid. My real troubles started when I crawled under there and moved the wires from the starter side to the battery side. Wasn't thinking, wanted to get off the isle so I got out from underneath to move the coach while everything was melting. By the time I got to the driver's seat the coach died. That cooked the starter, starter solenoid, fuel shutoff solenoid and melted the connector for the fuel shutoff solenoid. Somehow the white wire which is the wired to the "pull" coil of that solenoid was shorted to to +12VDC that's why it was always "hot" when the mechanic checked it out. The wiring was very confusing as the manuals do not show the fuel shutoff wiring scheme. I did not find the wiring for that solenoid until a couple days ago on the Beamalarm site. I have a new relay, wired up a new connector and checked voltages on the solenoid. Got 12 volts on the black (hold) wire with ignition on and 12V on the white (pull) wire with the key in the start position. Everything is good, all I need to do is install the new solenoid. Then deal with the starter.
Roland
Barry,
Thanks for the schematic!
Pierce
Barry, I called Joe Trianna three days ago to ask where the schematic for the fuel shutoff solenoid was. THEN I googled wiring diagram for fuel shutoff solenoid and it brought me right to Beamalarm. Joe returned my call after I had the information and I told him where I found it. Shoulda gone to Beamalarm first. Heck if I would have gone there first I would have saved a lot of heartache and $$$.
Roland
EVERYBODY with a Foretravel should have Beamalarm book marked. Sheesh.
Roland, Glad you found what you needed.
Lots of input from lots of people helped build the site. We are all doing what we can to further our knowledge of our Foretravels. This is my contribution to the effort.
I agree, mea culpa,mea culpa. I sure did my penance with $$bills. In my defense though I really really wanted to get off that fuel isle. Poor defense as twenty minutes on Beamalarm would have saved many hours and $$.
Roland
OK, installed the fuel shutoff solenoid today. Only one small hiccup. It doesn't fit. Could not bolt the solenoid down with both bolts, holes did not line up. Pulled the solenoid out and compared to the he old one. The old one had been ground down to fit. Tried that but still only one bolt hold down. The body of the solenoid is right up against the bracket that the throttle cables are attached. Did fire it up ran well, all solenoid was warm not hot AND I can shut it off with the key. Guess I will have to drill a hole on the bracket and use a nut and bolt.
Roland
This is the
exact problem that I described in my post on page 2 of this thread. I also described my solution, which is not difficult.
There are two I solutions to the problem, one that is elegant, yours, and one that is functional,mine. I usually go for functional. Went for elegant this time and used your modification on the mounting plate. Don't think I would have attested without a grinder. Also discovered that my plate had broken and been welded by some PO.
Roland
My homebound friends like to hear of our adventures this is the anecdote I sent them when I was stuck on the fuel isle. Grab your coffee a bit of a long rad.......or skip it altogether.
Hi
Y'all want an adventure story, well I just happen to have one. Probably should make a song out of this one.
We were in Big Spring Texas on our last leg to Lakewood NM. I told Carmen she was going to drive the rest of the way. She said "but that's two hundred miles". Yes I know was my reply. Before she started to drive I thought I would fill the tank as diesel is a bit cheaper in Texas than NM. And that's where the adventure begins.
I pulled into the fuel isle, shut off the engine and filled the tank. It was a bit tight in the isle and I was in at an angle so I told Carmen I'll get it off the island and you can take it from there. AH the Gremlins were watching. Turn the key to the start position, nada, nothing, rien, zip. Called a local Truck Stop, a T/A, and asked if they could send their mobile repair unit out. No problem until I told them we were in an RV. "We don't work on RV's". I then called a local wrecker service to haul me out to their repair facility. No problem until I told them I was in a motor home. "We don't tow motor homes, but we will be happy to get right on it as soon as you get it here". Oh the Gremlins were working overtime for Carmen that day.
I thought I knew what the problem was and decided I would test out my theory. Crawled under the coach and located the aux start solenoid. So far, piece of cake. Removed the starter wire from the cold side of the solenoid and placed it on the hot side. BRRRRRRRRM, started right up. In my excitement I got out from under there and figured I would get the coach off the fuel isle, get a new solenoid and have Carmen take the wheel. Ah but the Gremlins were watching and they were on her side. As soon as I got behind the wheel the coach stopped running.
Well crap, what now. Well that's when it hit me. The aux start solenoid is a MOMENTARY ON solenoid. It is only activated and only provides power to the starter in the start position. I had left the starter lead on the hot side of the solenoid. It hit me when I walked back to the engine compartment and smelled my toasting starter. I hurriedly removed the wire and refrained from screaming. We have been on the fuel isle several hours now.
I did manage to get the number of a local independent mobile mechanic. A very busy mobile mechanic as it was several more hours before he returned my call, and several more hours before he showed up, twelve to be exact. At one thirty AM he had not only diagnosed the issue as a burned out starter, well Duh, but also found out that there was none to be found at that hour of the day. We are still on the fuel isle. The Gremlins are laughing.
Early the following morning a nice man was knocking on our door. The nice man was the manager of the station. "I have to get movement on that pump", he says "you have to move your coach". There were a lot of ways I could have responded to that and I picked the helpless "this could be your grandfather" approach. Guess the Gremlins weren't watching as it worked. I explained our circumstances, showed him our texts to the mechanic and promised I would keep him up to date. And what do you mean by "movement" on the pump I asked. He explained that all the pumps were monitored at the district level and if the pump showed no movement (no pumping of fuel) in twenty four hours the crap hits the fans. Sneaky Gremlins were watching all along.
Not an hour later the "suit" shows up. And he doesn't look like the type that will bend to the "grandfather" approach. I explained my circumstances and lauded his employees telling him that I have never been treated with such consideration and sympathy at any time in my life. "You have the best people in the world working here; they know how to treat a customer. I poured it on so thick the Gremlins didn't have a chance. Understand we have now been on the fuel isle for over twenty-four hours.
Well the mechanic could not get a new starter locally; we would have to wait until the next day to get a new one from Odessa Texas. However he had some "spare parts" and said he could rebuild my starter. OK whatever gets us off this island the quickest. So he rebuilt the starter with parts that he had and installed the thing. Ah but the Gremlins were still watching and with glee. It seems that when I toasted my starter, with the Gremlins help, I also melted the fuel solenoid, no fuel to the injectors no running of the engine. Da@# Gremlins!
Ah but our mechanic was a lot smarter than the Gremlins, he mechanically strapped the fuel solenoid open and so, forty hours after fueling we were ready to leave. Of course it is now two AM, I don't dare to shut the engine off, Carmen doesn't like to drive at night as the lights bother her so guess who drove to NM, not Carmen.
Gotta get those Gremlins on my side.
Roland
Roland, I've bumped into those same Gremlins a time or two over the years. Not fun at the time, but a good laugh down the road.
See you in Q.
Thank you Roland for the "rest of the story."
I will tell you that I haven't shut off the Cummins at a fuel island since I read your original post. This makes me even firmer in my commitment.