Tom, is that the VSR? This is what FOT put on my coach Friday, voltage sensing relay, connects all batteries in the coach together like a trickle charger....a lot of people at the ladies' school got 'em after hearing James T. elaborate on it. Anyway I left FOT yesterday with no trouble all day & now this morning at the campground in Robert, LA she started right up then when I went out to unhook, she shut down. All my cheat sheets were not working, Coach Net is on the way after a lengthy discussion, also talked to Gary B. & he thinks it's a loose battery connection, which shoouldn't be happening after all batteries were load tested, & re-wired with heavy duty cables/terminals.
Anyway, I wish I had that charger the guys jumped her with at FOT before the techs got hold of her. Next stop will be for one of those!
Dani, sorry to hear you are having trouble. Your coach
should be in good shape after the work you had done at FOT this week.
To be clear, you are saying your coach ran fine all day Saturday, and you stayed overnight connected to shore power (30amp or 50amp?). Then this morning your engine started normally and ran until you disconnected shore power, at which time it shut down? This does not sound like a "loose battery connection" to me. Did you try to restart the engine? What was the result? Before the smart people on the forum (not me) can make suggestions, they will need more info. OR, you can just let Coach Net deal with it. If all they do is jump-start your engine and get it running, they have not solved your problem.
You need to somehow determine the reason why the engine quit running this morning. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Hey Chuck, waiting for Coach Net guy #2 now, not a battery issue, in talking with both Gary B and Gary O it seems to be a fuel pump issue, Gary O talked me thru bleeding the air lines, I got her started, but she kept cutting out again, ran the cycle several times and started her up again but agan she died, NOW true confessions, I had such a wretched travel day yesterday into the dark of night, (ack!) & ran down to a quarter tank of fuel, well she's less than that now so CN now has 20 gallons of fuel coming to me...HOWEVER....I was topped off on fuel last week when she died on me at the FOT dump station, got her going with bleeding air/water, pushing remote start button, then she died up the hill on the way back to my spot....that's when we got her started with battery jump & I had FOT do all the battery testing/work...well now it's actually a fuel issue...took a ton of notes from Gary O. & all of it has to do with any number of issues all concerning this fuel pump & lines, possible leak, he says she's sucking air....not getting fuel....maybe a bad lift pump or leaking fuel filter or bad gasket or filter, most likely the whole fuel assembly needs to be replaced...
My 98 suffered engine shut down at the best of all places, in the FOT parking lot. After the owner messed with the problems, including jump starting, FOT replaced the fuel lines. There are a couple of year models of failing fuel lines that have been problems for the owners.
Dani,
Sorry to hear you had trouble coming home from the Ladies Driving School. Don't feel lonesome; Jean and I had an engine shut down that involved Snake Eyes. More on that later.
Where was it? Jean and I never found it. I was beginning to think it was an urban myth.
Better luck from now on!
Trent
Hey Dave, had all the fuel lines replaced in January of this year by Paul Yasbeck....now have a half tank of fuel, ran the air bleed cycle again and she tried to start (did briefly) then shut down again....Coach Net is now going to do a search for a qualified diesel tech in the Hammond area (am in Robert, LA) & call me back tomorrow, am staying another night and frankly could use the break....I gave Gary O's list to the CN folks so they're armed with the best info possible to find someone & explain the situation. We'll see what tomorrow brings! ;D
Trent, was so great to see Jean driving out of FOT on Friday, she's a pro already! I was cheering on the sidelines! What a great experience, & so good to meet you two and everybody else! First class coaches, first class owners! Oh, the dump station is right next to the dumpster, and another one right across from that.
Well, that is good, that is a pain to do, and a couple of coach bucks as well.
You or someone mentioned the fuel pump, what about the solenoid that shuts down the engine when the key is off? Some have learned they had to zip tie it open for the day, till they could replace the solenoid.
Thanks Dave for the tip, will put that on the list...where is that located? (though the diesel guys will probably know). I am getting pretty good at bleeding the air out of the fuel pump! Go ahead, throw some more at me! ;D
Finally had a chance to find mine. It is located on the driver's end of the fuel pump, and is standing up and down. It pulls an arm that moves an inch or so. Your mechanic is sure to know where to find it, and pull it open.
Enjoy the day off, while you are parked and safe.
If it is the fuel shutoff solenoid and it szip tied open to run you will have to cut thezip tie to turn off the engine. Not sure that solenoid would contribute to air in the system though.
Roland
So true, sometime is wrong if she is getting air. Wild guess, I have read of low fuel issues, and the engine and generator hooked up on the wrong supply tube. Engine should be on the longest, and the generator should die first.
Since she had her fuel lines changed recently you may be on to something. I have found a new problem is likely to be related to any recent changes. That's why I have adopted "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. Many times preventative maintenance produces more problems than it prevents, particularly in my Foretravel.
Dani - do you have the Winn system on your coach? Perhaps the o-rings are letting air in?
Winn fuel system (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17527.msg117214#msg117214)
There are a bunch of other threads - if you search for winn air you'll pull them up (don't put it in quotes)
Michelle
ETA - here are some
M-11 won't start today (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10381.msg48983#msg48983)
ISM 450 Slow to Start (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16575.0)
ISM 450 Slow to Start (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16575.0)
Racor fuel and water seperator bypass (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=18145.msg123475#msg123475)
Air in my fuel system, engine won't stay running! (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=11178.msg54621#msg54621)
Thanks for all the input, this coach sat for about 8 years, (only 43,000 miles now!) when I bought her a year ago, fuel lines were all badly cracked so had to do it. Michelle, not sure if it's the Winn system, I know Gary O said a lot of people are changing over from the dual fuel assembly to a single one, this may be the original fuel pump? Though I think the filters are dated January '14 when Paul Y did all the work to bring her back to life. And the generator never stopped, kept going even as the engine died.
Coach Net will deal with this again tomorrow with diesel mechanics. Hope they are good & trustworthy as I am ~a single woman~ but know quite a bit about this system already just from today's "adventure." By the way Coach Net has been fabulous all day, as well as all the people they sent.
Fixed my Winn fuel filter system three times by pros and it still leaked. On the Dyno 58hp different to bypass the filter completely and hookup the inlet to the filter hose directly to the engine.
Replaced the Winn. Mechanic at cummins used to work at jb hunt truck company back in 97 and remembered the problems with the units.
Edit- quote added for clarity;
Have you run it this low on fuel before? If not, perhaps whoever changed out the fuel lines switched the generator and main engine feeds. If so, the pick up for the main engine would be sucking air somewhere between a quarter and an eighth of a tank... just a thought. Does the generator start and keep running?
Don
What Don said makes a lot of sense to me, ::) although if the fuel is now at half a tank or more something else must be wrong. Some type of sensing switch going bad.
I would verify that you are getting fuel through the injection pump by pulling off the return hose at the rear of your injection pump and run a short hose into a jug, verifying that your lift pump is getting fuel through the engine.
When pushing on the lift pump, plunger to manually prime the fuel system you should be able to hear the squish of the fuel exiting the injection pump. When my lift pump was worn out, you couldn't hear anything.
Our Winn fuel system had an inline fuel assist pump that was not getting power and when the engine called for extra fuel, it was like trying to suck a pea thru a straw. The power to the fuel assist pump came from the little black box that you use to purge and fiddle with the fuel filter on the back of the engine. The engine would buck and shudder, especially if we were asking it to go up a long grade, and the engine would need to downshift and want extra fuel. The mechanic attached vacuum lines to the fuel system to measure the pressure, and was able to figure it out. The fix was to get rid of the fuel assist pump and the filter that went with it, and just use a single, water separating filter in it's place. The fix was easy, the diagnosis was the hard part. This was on a Cummins M-11 in our '02. Keep us all posted!!!
Yes, Racor who bought Winn has declared the old Winn system obsolete (highly problematic) and has a suppression that they highly recommend.
I believe that the Winn/Racor systems were only on the m11's or ISM's. I know our ISC doesn't have one and I doubt that Dani's older mechanical c8.3's would have them.
Don
Michelle, thanks for this list, good info, & helped me figure out what the little "colostomy bag" hanging off the fuel filter assembly is! All the folks at the ladies' school know what I'm talkin' about. Photo by Barry B. (reply #5) on last thread ("air in my fuel system, coach won't stay running") is of the bag. This is exactly what Martha Dameron found out when she started asking everybody she met at FOT what it might be. And, Gary O of course knew what it was before I could hardly spit it out!
If it is the Winn Racor just bypass it. You have another fuel filter on there to carry the load till you get it replaced.
Sorry you are having problems Dani. I haven't been on for a couple of days and wish you had the issues fixed while at FOT. I will look for the other post about the colosomy bag..............lol.
I have had several issues on my coach- each caused problems but themselves,but after fixing all coach is running well now. Maybe I shouldn't say that too loud.
I agree with the others about the fuel situation. Since you ran your fuel tank low, you might have sucked up some of the crud from the bottom. This could clog your fuel filters big time. Is your generator running? If so, the first thing I would recommend is changing the fuel filters. Also, since your coach sat for so long, you might want to look into fuel polishing to clean the crud out of your tank.
If not, be sure to carry at least 3 spare filters because it often takes multiple changes to clear out a fuel system.
Did they change the primary fuel/ water separator on your coach at FOT? If so, then you should be able to change that filter out very easy.
Main thing is you are off the road safe, the rest is part of the adventure.
Thanks guys, the tech is gonna call me before he leaves the shop so I can tell him what to bring (parts)...Bill this is good info, I sort of knew it wasn't a Winn/Racor...hope to switch to the single filter assembly unit, got more notes from Gary O this morning & really appreciate all the feedback! You guys are great....Ted, you were there when she first died, full of fuel but chasing wild geese in the dark in southern LA didn't help, I already have had more than one (well deserved) spanking on that... ;D
Hope it works out Dani.
I have a question- you said you were going to change to a single filter option. Most of our coaches have 2 filters- a primary fuel/water separator ( that is the one over your starting batteries) and a secondary filter on the engine itself.
The secondary filter is very fine, about 2 microns to protect your injectors. If you have only a single filter, will you plug up faster and/or have enough protection for your fuel injectors??
Just thoughts to help you out.
Let us know what happens.
Ted I beleive we're talking about the one over the engine batteries, that one is made up of 2 cannister type units, (one larger & one smaller one that bubbles up when bleeding the air) ....talking about changing it to a single assembly pump unit. From what I understand, Gary O says it's OK to leave the electronic box just disconnect the wires.
Dani, Another thought.
Sounds like you have an unusual fuel filter set up. NORMALLY there are two filters, one is a water separator but that description does not fit your set up.
When the mechanic shows up ask him to CHANGE the filter that is mounted on the block up high just east of the fuel shut off solenoid and the injection pump. I know you had filters changed but the OEM filter is hard to see and I Wonder if it was changed. The set up you describe is not normal on an 8.3, I am ASSUMING that you have the 8.3 350 HP engine.
Gary B
Yes Dani, the assembly over the batteries. I have never seen anything like what you have, but I can tell you with a simple assembly that can take a spin on filter your life will be much easier when you need that filter changed. Also, you won't have the "bag" to bother with.
Also, if you carry extra filters with you, then it is easier to find someone to change them if you don't want to do it yourself.
Filterbarn.com is a great source for filters- a lot of us get them there.
Best of luck when the tech. gets there.
Dani, As we talked about a few minutes ago your engine has TWO filters, the one you are describing is a system to trap water etc and is either an add on or an unusual factory option.
I am concerned that your mechanic in FL says he changed two filters BUT did he change the OEM filter mounted on the block most commonly known as the secondary filter ?
The standard filter number for your 8.3 engine is a FLEETGARD FS 1226 or a NAPA 3442.
I would suggest that you tell the mechanic coming to you to bring this filter with him and regardless of what he does with the OTHER filter to change this filter.
The course of action that you have mentioned is simply bypassing the water separator system that has the leaky bag on it.
Gary B
Ted, who woulda thunk...a special web site just for filters? Duly noted!!! Gary B, got these #'s written down for when the tech calls me...tech place sounds like a good outfit.... http://www.waynestruckservice.com (http://www.waynestruckservice.com) $90 an hour for mobile service so I wanted him to have as many parts with him as might be necesary beforehand so I don't have to pay for his running around looking for parts...thank you all...have made copious notes on all your suggestions....
Dani,can you take a photo of the system you have and post it.
Miz,
Do NOT switch from two fuel filters to one. The two filter system is a lot better and much less susceptible to clogging. A 10 or 30 micron followed by a 2 or 5 micron filter combination will clog much less quickly than a single 2 or 5 micron filter, as the "big stuff" is captured in the first filter.
Yes, in an emergency, you can bypass the primary fuel filter (10 or 30 micron element), but as said above, that will materially shorten the life of the secondary/fine filter.
Bill, don't know how, am technologically retarded...can't text either...Brett, I thought the dual filter was the 2 unit item adjacent to the engine batteries....did not know of any other....was referring to the larger & smaller canisters, attached to one another, in engine battery compartment. The smaller one is transparent & that's the one thru which the cycle runs when I bleed the air...when that cycle ends I try to start her as soon as possible. Am now finding out there are other filters, on the engine block under the intake manifold, & the one I thought was the only one....am beginning to feel like I don't know nearly as much as I'd thought I did.... :'(
That smaller "filter" is really just a strainer to catch really big stuff.
I'll help you out Dani. Here is a picture of your fuel filter in the chassis battery bay. Hope you get to feeling better and get back on the road home.
Mark and Tanya
Thanks Mark! They'll be back tomorrow, per Gary O, they ran a test bypassing the fuel pump, (barely a trickle of fuel got thru the hose & she kept cutting out again)....they ordered the lift pump from Cummins, not sure what else, on their way to me now.....looks like another night with Yogi Bear at Jellystone....sigh....
So sorry you are having so much trouble Dani. I had hoped your issues would have been settled before you left NAC, but alas, that does not always work out. As I said before, at least you are off the road safely.
FYI- if you are having engine issues and are near NAC the person to call is Bernd Ramspect. He is the diesel mechanic to go to-very good at what he does. A lot of us on the forum are using him for engine work, fuel lines, air bags, etc.
936-707-1584 is his phone. Won't help you now but when you are back in NAC he is a great resource for us all.
Good luck and stay safe.
Thanks Ted & Karen, appreciate the info for next time...we are now into day 4 of this great adventure...the tech promised to come back to me 1st thng in the morning....lift pump's installed & at first she tested well, stayed running on idle, but now is still sucking a lot of air, won't stay running....oh how I wish this had happened at FOT, I'd have been home by now.
Dani, now I have not followed too closely your problem due to being here in Europe but am I correct that you just had the fuel lines replaced and if so could there be a bad hose connector causing this problem. If the end connection is nott air tight you would get the same effect as no fuel or plugged filters. maybe I am off base but this is a possibility
Johnh
I agree with John. If you were to disconect the fuel line at the tank and then at the lift pump and pull a vacumn on the line you could rule it out that way also. Another issue that I have incoutered in the trucking logging industry as a maechanic is a rag somehow getting in the tank or some kind of debrees like a leaf or something that floats around and will be drawn to the pickup tube and block it and I have also seen the pickup tube in the tank crack above the fuel level and suck air. I know all that seems far fetched but I have seen it happen, just saying. Good Luck
John, Adam, thanks for this, (all noted!) ....all went well when the lift pump got installed then he started to change the 2 canister pump in the battery compartment to a one canister single unit & found he'd brought the wrong item, an electronic or digital (?) one instead of a mechanical one (I can't remember exactly all the details) so I think he attempted a bypass & that failed....not sure, will find out for sure today.
* brief note (off topic, sorry) there are 2 bright white small lights along the right side of my coach now that have never been on before, can't find any way to get them off...step light was broken, wonder if the tech inadvertently fixed them? There are 2, one by the door & one further back, towards the rear. right side only.
Miz D,
Are you talking about your right side docking lights? If so there is a switch that operates them just below your transmission shift pad. One for the right side one for the left. Ours are green switches.
Pamela & Mike
....yes that did it! I must have turned them on yesterday, running all the tests & turning the boost switch off & on! ...right side was on, left side off, thank you Pamela & Mike! ^.^d
Fuel Lines? Â old and cracked?
detach the fuel line from the tank and see how it runs on a 5 gallon can of diesel direct to the engine
Tim, thanks for your tip, duly noted, fuel lines all new in January....good input from Gary O too, he & the tech chatted this morning & seem to be "on the same page" so to speak....still waiting for him to arrive. Told him I needed to be 1st today, instead of the last thing they get to every day so far. To be fair, they are short a couple techs this week & dealing with other emergencies too.
Dani,
Your docking lights are for backing up as well as illuminating the general area. The do not come on in reverse only when switched on. On my coach there is a switch over the bed for them as well. The idea is that if you hear a noise at night outside you can turn them on to let whoever/whatever know that you know they are there.
Keith
unless you have the Xtreme rear LED lights - when he does the conversion, James and gang change the docking lights to come on in reverse.
Satisfied customer.....
:-)
Just thought I would post that Dani got the coach fixed and drove 265 miles to east of Pensacola today. She said she is exhausted due to a bad cold and cough. I am sure she will post the report soon.
Mark
...."yea" is right, finished at noon & hit the road with full fuel.....am slightly better today.....finally exhaled on the way out of La, held my breath most of the way til I turned the key off, & thanked the ol' girl for being so patient while parked for so long in the cold!
Hopefully she'll start right off this morning...running 3 and a half days behind in getting home so details later & many hearty thanks to all who threw their ideas & tips/possible solutions into the hat! ^.^d
So, what was the problem-- inquiring minds want to know.
Talked with Dani an hour ago, she spent the nite near Pensacola and is headed home. Apparently the "mechanic " finally got around to bypassing the Winn system so she could get on the road and she will have to redo the filter system later.
I am sure when she gets home and gets to feeling better she will detail the adventure for us, main thing is she is rolling and safe.
Gary B
Gary, when I got our coach I asked Keith Risch what the one thing most likely to stop me, fail on the road. He said the Winn component of the fuel system. I know others disagree, but Dani experience reminded me of what Keith told me
She often cited all the help by Forum members, thankful for yous guys. On the road mechanics are not always sufficient.
Mike
What a day....lost hydraulics & power steering, barely made it off the interstate to a truck stop, lost all steering, limped her in, serpentine belt shredded.....Gary O to the rescue again, talked me thru getting the extra belt he 'd put in the bay & getting it put on with the help of a passing trucker....never a dull moment.
In La: new lift pump & gasket, bypassed old filter head & bled air out of fuel, took a lot of bleeding but she finally got going at noon yesterday....265 miles & another 332 today....in spite of the hydraulics issue!
I need a vacation from my vacation! :-X
Dani,
What an adventure! Take care of yourself now.
Roger
Glad to here you are rolling again. This one of those trips you woul just as soon forget.
Goodness Dani, you must feel like Joe Btfsplk. Time to get rid of that black cloud.
Bob and Carol
Miz D,
You must have thought that bad luck schleprock was your navigator. Glad you are back on the road. Hope you whip that East Texas cold.
Pamela & Mike
You sure are using that "TUIT" !!
Dani, The bright side is that when you see someone on the side of the road with a shredded belt you can now show them how to do it.
Gary B
Wow- you have had an "adventure."
Good news is you are safe and have the issues under control. After you get everything taken care of, you should have many enjoyable miles in your coach.
Cya down the road Dani.
Ted & Karen
I would check the belts pathway for misaligned or worn pulleys or tensioners. Belts are hard to shred if visibly in good condition.
Same Winn issues as I posted here
Hey Bill, I think that "round tuit" you gave me was the cause of all this insanity! :P Frankly, the issues were kind of common ones on a coach this age (from what I understand?) The fuel pump should've been replaced long ago. The belt is a more common problem on the older coaches & needs replacing, I'll keep a couple of spares from now on. Bob, that's a good idea to check the wheels, she will get a good "going over" again pretty soon. At least the timing couldn't have been better as I was already on the phone with Gary O when this hydraulic issue happened! Talk about serendipity!
Thanks all for your terrific input, and in spite of all the craziness, I still LOVE this coach & am gonna keep her! ;)
In thinking back to what people were saying at FOT, these coaches get together in the FOT lot & talk to each other & I think my coach overheard Ducky (Tulsa Trent's coach) & they both plotted these little hydraulic tricks on us on the way home! :))
Gosh Dani...just finished reading your saga. So glad you finally made it home safely. What an "adventure!" Great meeting you at the Ladies Driving School. I'm not at all sure I'd have the cojones (if that were even possible) to coach it alone. You Go, Girl!!
Remind me to keep the coach away from FOT, if they get together and plot against the unsuspecting !
Glad that you were able to handle it all, and still keep a positive attitude Dani.....good on Ya !
Yeh the funniest part of traveling alone is that everywhere you go, men keep waiting to see the man emerge from the coach then one doesn't, they can't beleive it! I spent the night in Holt, FL the other night & you can't beleive the reaction I got in the little restaurant from the men folk, they were flabbergasted that I could drive somethin' "that big"...I told 'em "that ain't big, I just got done drivin' the 45 footers in Texas!" :)) Loved the reactions. One of the best things about the ladies' driving school is meeting the other two solo women, Kit & Hannelore, what great gals, so much fun & always ready to go! A real inspiration, can't wait to go again! This was not quite a 3,000 mile trip....next time I wanna get serious! ;D
Good idea to replace belt tensioner if belts start failing
Here is good short video that shows tensioner wear: Automotive Tensioner Failure.mpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLV5IU_IMM#)