We're down to the last part - the belt-driven hydraulic pump that runs the radiator fan motors. The one Foretravel sent was their last one, and the shaft is too short. The Haldex part number is 1800465. Anyone have any ideas? We've tried Foretravel, Colaw's, Haldex and now they're on the phone to Newell. Foretravel says it will be March before they will have another.
Find a place that works on repairing hydraulic pumps. They may be able to help you.
Keith
Contact Womack Machine 1-800-569-9801
Trace Helm, the head guy here, has been on the phone all morning since he was made aware of the problem. He has called Colaw's, Womack, Haldex, Foretravel, and has a call in to Newell. Everything else is in place. All we need is the pump, shaft, and pulley to fit together nicely. I actually posted the initial post, using Jo Ann's name since she was logged in on her iPad. We're back in our spot waiting for a miracle. I have a call in to James T.
It seems that the shaft and gear inside the pump are proprietary items, so a pump shop can't just make one up. I can't believe that this is the first time this problem has come up. The original shaft is 1/2" to 3/4" longer than the shaft on the replacement pump. There is some sort of adapter behind the pulley (as I understand what Trace was trying to tell me) that the pulley squeezes as it is put on, which is why they had so much trouble getting it off. One of the mechanics suggested that they put the pulley on the new pump as best they can, then spin it up somehow and use a dial indicator to get it within .001 and then weld it. Trace nixed it on the grounds that if it didn't work they have just ruined a new pump. I nixed it on safety grounds. They really are trying to think of anything that might work - even if it gets someone injured.
David, any chance of sleeping the new shaft to fit the pully assembley?
Richard, do you mean "sleeving" the shaft?
I can't picture the problem, but a few pictures would help. You could have somebody handy on a lathe turn an adapter to put the old pulley on the new shaft.
David,
Attached is a photo of our pump shaft, adapter and pulley. It has four bolts you can see. The length of the shaft should have nothing to do with it as the adapter and pulley will slide on the shaft to align the belt. Both the shaft and adapter are keyed with the key placed in the shaft and the adapter aligned and tapped on. The bolts should be loosened, the area sprayed with LPS or any like lubricant and then it can be pulled off. Is this what your pulley looks like? You have the same engine and year as ours.
Hope they are not taking you for a ride.
Pierce
Are the shafts the same, except for length? If the shaft on the old pump is not damaged, remove it and install it in the new pump? Usually it is the bearings/bushings that go bad, and the shaft is still fine, even on a "worn-out" pump.
This afternoon has been "interesting." We were originally sent a 2-stage pump but we need a single stage. Foretravel sent the right part, but it seems that the pump manufacturer had a quality problem and a bunch of pumps were shipped with the wrong shaft. Foretravel got some of them, and all but one were sent back. I have the one that wasn't sent back.
The pulley doesn't go all the way on the shaft. I called James Triana this afternoon and pleaded with him for some help. He called back a while ago and had Mike with him, both of them on speaker with me. That's how I found out about the pumps with the wrong shaft. They had reviewed what has been sent this week and started speculating on whether the two-stage pump could be made to work. Trace Helm, the head guy here at Cabin Diesel, immediately called Mike and asked what was happening. The engineers will puzzle over this problem and if the two-stage pump can be made to work that will be used. We'll know sometime on Monday.
In the meantime I talked to a mechanic/tool and die friend. He thinks that maybe the original pump can be rebuilt. Since his place is on the way for our Christmas trip I will take the original pump with me and drop it off for him to play with. At this point we don't know whether the coach will be in Stillwater or Big Cabin for Christmas. We'll find out next week.
Pierce, that looks like what ours looked like before all this happened. The pulley is held to the shaft with a type of collet. As the bolts are tightened the part inside the pulley is squeezed onto the shaft and key. Probably makes for a very good mechanical connection, but a royal pain to take apart (according to the young man who got to do the work).
They say hindsight is always 20/20. I wonder if we'd be in Stillwater by now if I had said to scrap the hydraulic system and put in a couple of electric fans. I understand that some of the new cars even use electric pumps for the power steering and brakes.
David, I did mean sleeve. ;D
Could electric fans "get you by" in 30-40 degree ambient temperatures-- maybe.
Could electric fans work year round. From a practical standpoint, not a chance. These fans are 20-30 HP fans when on high.
There is no practical way to fit an alternator/electric fan system to generate the CFM generated by a 20-30 HP hydraulic fan set up.
The mechanic had trouble because he didn't use and rust penetrant ahead of time and wondered why it wouldn't come off. That's the difference between the young man and a master mechanic.
No, you can't just install electric fans and get enough air through the radiator to cool it any kind of warm weather. I would have done that the moment I looked at the setup.
So here is what happened as I see it. You were driving down the road and noticed a loss of power. The steering wheel rim had blocked the warning lights and the DDEC II had gone into shutdown mode, protecting the engine. After 30 seconds of reduced power, the engine shuts off. The override switch can be used but repeated use has ruined engines. The hydraulic pump had leaked all the oil out so the fans stopped working.
The company wanted you to open your wallet and probably was not up to speed on the system so wanted to order all new components. Correct? Now, a bunch of stuff has arrived but does not look like the OEM and they don't really know what to do except charge your credit card.
Send the pump out to be rebuilt by someone who knows what they are doing if you can't find a reasonable replacement.
Ultra sorry about your situation, especially this time of year. This is the big reason I want to add radiators up front, remove the entire obsolete hydraulic pump/motor/fan system and put electric fans on the face of the radiator. No fun starting a trip and wondering if the pump or other components are going to fail. Other SOB forums are also full of horror stories. And, yes, it IS obsolete if you can't quickly get parts to service it. How much were they trying to charge just for overnight delivery? This is way more than six electric fans would cost to buy and deliver.
This time of year, several electric fans installed correctly on the face would probably get you home or to a stable location without getting too hot. Would take six and careful measurement against size seen on the ebay fans to get them fitted so all of the radiator was covered.
Pierce
I don't understand what is so special about these FT hydraulic systems. Almost every metro bus, many charter busses, etc, use hydraulic fan systems. I had a 1990 gillig metro bus with a hydraulic fan system.
Nothing is that special.
I think there are a couple of issues here.
First, Foretravel used several different arrangements back then, even on similar coaches built at different times in the run. Not much can be done about that now, other than to know beforehand what alternator, power steering pump, etc. is on YOUR coach.
Second, Concentric (who bought Haldex) built some pumps with the wrong shaft in them. Foretravel discovered that and sent back all but one of the defective pumps. For some reason one was not sent back for exchange and that's the one I got.
Cabin Diesel is desperately seeking mechanics who can not only change the old parts but also figure out WHY something failed. I don't know if the young mechanic used any sort of loosening agent or not. I suspect that he probably did, but 20 years of rust and crud aren't going to clean up in 20 minutes and I suspect that he was a bit impatient.
As for charging our credit card, nothing has been charged yet. I'm sure that it is because they aren't done working and don't really know just what to charge yet. They said they were going to charge us a greatly reduced rate for three nights and then nothing for the rest of the time here. They also cut their labor rate, and apologize every time they walk by. Yes, this will cost us several coach bucks, but at least we are safe and warm. We're right on Route 66, which we want to explore anyway. We even had someone here (!) express interest in our house in Missouri. All in all, things could be a lot worse.
Krush,
What makes it very special is when you have spent your life in different vocations than mechanical geeks like some of us, bought a motorhome to travel our country and then have experienced a component failure, can't get it quickly resolved and without busting the budget.
This is what our forum is for. No crime to not be an expert on the hundreds of different components our coaches have. A quick post with a problem will find someone who has had the same experience and can help get them pointed the right way. No ego here, just a desire to help others. I'm sure members feel the same way about helping others. It's been a tough road for many RV manufactures including Foretravel so we can't expect too much and have to rely on each other. Bunch of great folks as I see it.
Pierce
You completely misinterpreted my post. I wasn't being sarcastic or critical to David by any means! I was being critical of FT for using such weird "special" combination of parts that seem to be damn impossible to find!!! I can total understand and relate to his frustration.
As for the mechanic bill. Well, people have to make a living. I turned wrenches for money in the past, and fix stuff for a living now, by the hour. If the shop has somebody working on your stuff, they need to be charging for it. If the mechanics are pretty competent, it's not their fault FT built the system they way it is.
It always irks me when people start getting cheap and complaining about labor charges when the mechanic/shop is doing a GOOD job. They have to feed their family too. And the complaining usually comes from white collar or government workers that earn a pretty penny sitting in a desk all day doing 2-3 hours of useful work (emails and BS the rest of the time).
I suspect that back in 1993 the system I have was a first-class system. The problem is that this isn't 1993. Add to that a manufacturing error that somehow made it out of the factory and you have the problem I have. I suppose I could try to point fingers, but I'd have to point at least one at myself, since I'm the one who bought a 20-year-old coach and didn't immediately start changing all of the external parts that could wear out. I'm strongly tempted to spend a bit more and have all new hydraulic hoses installed, just to prevent a future problem in this system.
Not a bad idea. Just my opinion based on a failed hydraulic hose.
Roland
The picture Pierce put up is showing a tapered mandrel that as mentioned gets tighter by tightening the bolts. You remove it by putting 2 of the bolts in the 2 threaded holes shown in photo. Very common mounting system we used a lot on diesel Engine etc parts in England. You do not need a full shaft fitting flush with outside, it can be 50% but nice to have more. I would relace that system if it is still usable. If shaft is larger diameter then have the bushing bored out to fit and keyway deepened to suit. I seem to remember something about the shaft size being wrong but did not find it.
Also seems to be another problem.
I too have a problem with FT not having right parts and this talk in another thread about "wrong drawings" in coach files, this should not be happening in this price of coach.
JohnH
I just don't understand how there can only be "one" pump that fits and "one" motor. A pump has a certain displacement or variable displacement with certain specs---why can't any similar be used?
David,
John H. is spot on in his assessment on the shaft and pulley. Did exactly what he said to dozens of motors/pumps & fans in industrial equipment for power plants all across the country that are still running. Those machines run hard 7/24/365, so it seems that a good machine shop would be able to help resolve the fix. Just my opinion, but 30+ yrs experience says something.
Larry
David,
When you say "The pulley doesn't go all the way on the shaft" how how far does it go on? The collet was appx 5/8" from being flush with the end of the shaft on my original pump. The new pump has a longer shaft which does end up almost flush with the collet.
John and Larry, are you saying that if the pulley is at least 50% on the shaft that is sufficient? If so, then maybe we can finally get on the road one way or the other. As I recall, that might put the pump pulley somewhere close to being in line with the engine pulley.
Foretravel engineers are trying to figure out how to make the two-stage pump that was originally sent work, and a friend who runs a machine shop is willing to look at the old pump to see if he can rebuilt it. His shop is on our way home for Christmas, so we'll take the old pump with us if nothing is fixed before then.
It seems that the sequence of events here is that one of the fan motors seized up first. The speed switch was destroyed then, and the loss of oil caused the pump to run dry. The old fan motors and speed switch are no longer available, so we had to replace them with new ones.
Dave, the main issue is that the shaft on the new pump is a half inch shorter than the shaft on the dead pump. The shaft on the two-stage pump is the correct diameter and length. If the pulley only goes on about half-way anyway, then we're still out of luck, as that's about how far it goes on the short shaft.
So many of the RV manufacturers are no longer in business so I guess that Foretravel owners are lucky to have anyone at the other end of the phone. Foretravel made a great quality RV for many years but has had to change their direction to keep the doors open. Now there are so many different forms of transportation for the retiree like city sized cruise ships, flights to exotic destinations, etc plus the number of people with the income necessary to purchase, fuel, insure, and maintain high end RV has drastically shrunk.
I'm sure Foretravel thought they had the best hydraulic system going when they went to the side radiator. High production vehicles that make money for owners rack up millions of miles in fleet use so any faults surface quickly and have to be addressed in the same manner to keep companies coming back to buy again. Foretravel used many of the commercial components to make a quality, reliable coach but just missed a bit in the choice of available hydraulic components. But hindsight is always 20-20.
As Krush posts above, there is nothing really special about powering a couple of motors to cool the radiator and many of these pumps can be seen on ebay each day for a fraction of the price Foretravel owners have to pay if they can even locate the part. It's just finding someone with the time and experience that can match the inexpensive pumps and motors up to our coaches. I'm sure Foretravel is stretched thin enough as it is and no other company wants to do the research to match pumps and motors to our application with a very limited number of vehicles. Hopefully, some member with the time and a little experience will (probably out of necessity) match easily found components to our application.
As an possible alternative to the hydraulic system, how about mounting a large 12V alternator in place of the hydraulic pump and using commercial fans to move the necessary CFMs through the radiator? The air cooled diesel bus I looked at only used one big 24V fan above and mounted to the body to cool the engine in all conditions.
Pierce
David,
As you can see in my photo, the shaft comes nowhere close to the end of the colette. Getting the pulley to line up to the crank pulley and tensioner idler are very important.
Pierce
Pierce, I think that you've pointed out the obvious. The shaft is too short, and no amount of wishing is going to stretch it. If Foretravel can figure out a way to use the two-stage pump (which has the right shaft) then we're in business. If not, I have to get the old pump rebuilt, using the old shaft. That, of course, assumes that the shaft and gear haven't been damaged. If they are fine, then we're in business. If not, we're dead in the water.
That's what I was trying to say. Originally my collet was on about 1/2 way. It would have had to go on another 5/8" or so to be flush with the end of the shaft. The pulley would hit the mounting bolts before that.
@krush The pumps/motors are not all that special. The could be replaced with similar equipment. The problem is finding the similar equipment. If mine failed while at home near my workshop I would definitely try to find an aftermarket replacement pump. You would need the full spec's for the pump to match up to. Once you find the pump/motors you need to make adaptors fit it to your system. The pump that FOT sent me was a direct drop in replacement but the fan motor required an adaptor plate for the motor and an extension for the fan. Both of these just bolted right in for me. Apparently I was lucky they had everything!
From what I've seen FOT did a lot of experimenting back in the early 90's coaches when they went to the side radiator. I've seen several different setups in the few coaches I've looked at. If I make it to Quartzsite this year maybe we need to do a "I'll show you mine if you show yours" with all the coaches there. :)
All of the pumps/motors I've seen have been aluminum body with steel gears (easy to check with a magnet). When the body wears out the pump/motor has to be replaced. You can buy time by replacing seals but don't really think that will last very long. From the posts I've seen I'd say 15 to 20 years is the life span you can expect out of hydraulics. If your coach is in that lifespan range and you are running original equipment I'd keep a close eye out for leakage at the pump pulley and/or on inside of the radiator fan.
Best advise I can give is to buy a http://www.amazon.com/AGPtek%C2%AE-Professional-Digital-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B004Q8L894/ (http://www.amazon.com/AGPtek%C2%AE-Professional-Digital-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B004Q8L894/). Measure you fan speed and keep as a reference. If you see it going down in the future you'll know pump/motor replacement is on the horizon.
@David as I've said previously sorry for all the trouble you are having. Been there done that you will survive!
see ya
ken
Thanks for all the advice and sympathy. Yes, this is a set-back, but not a fatal one. We're safe, have full hook-ups, and are in an area that we want to explore some anyway. Tomorrow we're going to get up early and drive to Stillwater so we can go to church at the place where we're supposed to be. At least they will know that we really exist. Monday Foretravel should have an answer as to whether we can use the two-stage pump and then we'll know more.
A couple of video's you should watch
Take off the pulley
QD Bushing Installation - Gates Corporation - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnk_cvWniw0)
Size the pump
How to Measure Cubic Inch Displacement in a Gear Pump - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaUQPLdv3hw)
Anyone know the approx CFM of the stock fan or double fans? Trying to match possible 12V fan CFM to see what is feasible.
Pierce
I highly doubt this is feasible. The city bus I owned had two massive 24v on the roof for the A/C condenser. They had massive wires going to them and the bus had a gear drivel 300+amp 24v alternator.
The HP required to move all that air is significant. And the problem is, at 12V, that HP results in a lot of amps!
The type of coupler used on the pump are the easiest to remove. The first thing to do is get a tap and clean out the push holes then put in
the push bolts and push it apart. Use never seize or oil on the push bolts and it should just push off. If you have the push bolts as tight as you dare and it
hasn't pushed off, use a hammer and a punch and hit the outer collar. I've never had one not come apart. When the outer collar move back take a screw driver
and put into the slot of the inner collar and tap it in to spread the collar from the shaft and that will loosen it and then just pull it of.
David,
The 2nd stage of the 2 stage pump could be connected to the tank supply and then just returned to the tank as a last resort.
David, as I have not seen any pictures of your set up is there any way that collet and pulley can be put on shaft in reverse so it may bring the pully inline with the others for belt? Thosetapered inserts can be put in backwards and that usually moves the pully further out?
Just trying to think of alternatives.
JohnH
Because of this thread, I went to look at my hydraulic system today. It's really quite simple. It appears to be a fixed displacement pump. There are two houses coming out: one to fan motors and one to steering box.
The supply to the motors goes to a manifold bolted to the bottom of the front motor. On the manifold, two small lines go up to the temperature sensor. Another line of the manifold is the return to the tank (via a cooler).
Each motor has a case drain that is tee'd together and returns to the tank.
Now here's what I bet confuses some people. The motors are mounted upside down from one another. The Inlet is on the bottom of the front motor/outlet(drain) is on the top. The rear motor is opposite (inlet on top). The OUTLET from the front motor is piped to the inlet of the rear motor.
Anyway, the system is very simple after looking at it.
Today's update: The coach is going to stay here at Big Cabin Diesel until sometime in January. Various people are been trying to track down engineers to figure out whether the two-stage pump could be used. It seems that all of the top engineers in the country are on vacation right now. If someone comes up with a solution we'll get a phone call. In the meantime I'm going to take the old pump to a friend of mine who runs a machine shop and is an old-school mechanic who wants to know why something failed rather than just change parts. He's going to see if he can rebuild the old pump. Jo Ann is on the phone with them right now. This will give us a good opportunity to catch up on what all of our children and grandchildren are up to (8 children and 2 grandchildren between us).
If the old pump is a no go, ask him if hen can center bore the new pump shaft and build a corresponding shaft to the correct length and weld together,re machine the the weld and your done.
Hopefully he can measure the internal parts and post the numbers here so that at least a general idea of pump displacement can be extracted. The pump is easier to figure out than the motors.
How to Measure Cubic Inch Displacement in a Gear Pump - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaUQPLdv3hw)
The plot thickens. I sent a somewhat sharp email to Concentric, the company that made the new pump, and asked for a response. Here is what I just got:
"Very sorry to hear of your trouble with the vehicle. We did not have a run a of pumps
with the wrong shaft. I have verified there have never been any returns for incorrect shafts.
The last production run of this pump was May of 2008. As this pump has a custom shaft,
the lead-time to procure shafts is a minimum of 12-14 weeks and has a minimum buy qty.
Sounds like Foretravel sent you the wrong pump entirely."
I just left a message with Mike at Foretravel. Tomorrow I'll let my friend look at both pumps and we'll see if we can get a working pump out of this mess.
That to me is very bad and sad to hear if as you said was the comment from FT on why you were sent the wrong one. I would be fuming and want some help with labour cost for wasted time.
In this "electronic" age you have to be very careful what you say and they should know that.
JohnH
They may have ordered a different pump and returned them after finding they did not fit.
May need a group buy here from those who have the same system. Direct from the supplier.
In advance of need
We can speculate all we want about who might be to blame, but that isn't going to solve anything. Bob may be onto something. Foretravel said that they won't get their next order of 8(?) until March, and Concentric said 12-14 weeks, so I'm guessing that Foretravel has just ordered some. For the next year or two ordering from Foretravel will result in immediate delivery. A group buy would certainly cut into that demand, though, and would leave some people much worse off. If Foretravel buys eight pumps for, say, $800 each, they are putting out $6400 in hopes of getting back, say, $10,000 over the next three years. If it takes six years to get those pumps sold, though, might someone decide that it isn't worth it to carry them? Then what?
On the other hand, if 10 of us were go go together and order 10 pumps, we would get ours at wholesale price. One person would have to be the point person, who would receive the money from the other nine, place the order, and then send out nine pumps.
The question, then, is how many of these pumps might be needed? I know my 93 U300 needs one. What about other years? What about other models? What about other brands, such as Newell or Wanderlodge? Do any of them use this same pump? I'm a member of both forums, so I'll ask them that question. What about Prevost? Anyone on their forum? What others?
I wonder what other parts might be hard to get and worthy of a group buy? Interesting topic. Maybe this ought to get a separate thread.
Although our U280 is in the same model year as David's, it uses a totally different pump. Our coach has the "2 pump" setup, with completely separate systems for cooling fans and power steering. I have been doing some in-depth research lately on my cooling fan pump, because I am going to try rebuilding it myself. Our pump was manufactured by Vickers, and is a vane type single stage pump. The model number is V10F 1S5T 1C10J 20. The stock number is 0-2136886-3. There is a lot of info on this pump available online, including some excellent "exploded" diagrams and parts lists. This pump is really quite simple in design, and can be totally "refreshed" by simply replacing the center "cartridge" section, along with a shaft seal, roller bearing and a few O-rings. I have already secured these parts, along with a new shaft (in case the original shaft shows any defect). I will be starting on the rebuild right after Christmas (weather permitting). I plan on presenting a complete photo report on the (hopefully successful) project.
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pll_1570.pdf (http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pll_1570.pdf)
Parts for Vickers V10/V20 Vane Pumps (http://www.parts4pumps.com/store/page15.html)
Cajon, should have no problems overhauling the Vickers pump. Have done many over the years on tuna boats and tug boats. Good luck!
Chuck, looks like I may have the same pump in my book I have the service parts information sheet with all the spec's and exploded view of the assembly. Thanks for your post. I will look tomorrow and make sure that's what i have.
@Chuck I see 3 hoses on you pump is there maybe a 4th that I can't see? Is your pump a 2 stage pump or maybe a tandem? Any chance you have the hydraulic schematic in your documentation?
see ya
ken
David, you are being very calm on this whole issue and I commend you for that, but, it was brought to our notice by your posting of info and that resulted in my "sad" comment. FT know what was fitted to your coach and that is why I found the sending of a wrong unit to be bad and stand by that still.
Should this breakdown ever affect me I would be tearing it apart myself and using my background as Tool & Die maker/machinist knowledge hopefully to bring about a quicker repair to pump or?
JohnH
Sorry, David, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but since this subject is of interest to MANY members, I thought it might be OK to mention "other" pump setups being used besides your Haldex pump.
1. Ken, yes there are 4 hoses total. Looking at my photos, you can see one big hose going to the front cover (inlet) of the pump - this comes from the hydraulic tank. At the rear of the pump, there is one smaller hose coming out the top, and 2 hoses that are Tee'd together coming out the side (you can only see 1 in the photo). I haven't actually traced these hoses (yet) to see where they go, but I will before I remove the pump for overhaul. I also bought a digital photo tachometer that I will use to check my current fan speeds at several different RPM's. This will give me base numbers to use for comparison after the pump is rebuilt.
2. My pump is a simple single stage pump,
exactly as shown in the tech doc linked above, with one replaceable center "cartridge" section. My pump has the
V10F rear cover, which is a "Flow Control" cover (the bottom one shown in the diagram). It has a "pressure control valve" in the rear cover outlet port where the 2 Tee'd hoses connect. According to my part number, this is a "J" valve, which equates to 2250 psi (maximum pump or system pressure?). Here is a short video showing internal construction of the V10 pump:
Changing Rotation On A Vickers Vane Pump - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOqJor92r44)
3. Unfortunately, I do not have a hydraulic schematic for my coach. It is on my Christmas Wish List! Do you suppose Santa knows James Triana?
From what the people here have been told, Foretravel used several different pumps back then. I'm not sure whether all U300's got the same pump, all U280's got another, etc. At any rate, we have separate fan and power steering pumps, so we've been able to drive the coach from the campsite to the shop and back each day. By now I think we have driven it nearly a half mile since the original breakdown.
I have both the original pump and the replacement pump in my possession, and I'll pick up the pulley as we leave this afternoon. We're going to spend tonight with some friends in the KC area. He has a machine shop and is an old-school mechanic. A seal kit is on the way to his shop, and the plan is to see if the old pump can be rebuilt. The problem is that the gear and shaft are proprietary items, so the only source is Concentric, and they don't keep them in stock. They do a run and when they're out they plan another run. Seems like with something like that they would do a run of those parts BEFORE they run out, but I'm not in charge of their business.
As David has stated, it is ultimately fruitless to question engineering decisions made 2 decades ago... STILL, I find it hard to think of any rational explanation for these different hydraulic pump fitments. Sure, his coach has a different engine, and slightly different "packaging" requirements. When you are in the process of building a coach, how tough is it to design a bracket that bolts on any given engine and provides a mounting point for a specific pump? His coach came down the FOT assembly line 12 units behind mine. On my coach, "they" decided to install a common off-the-shelf pump that was used in countless hydraulic systems around the world. On his coach "they" decided to use a custom built, seemingly one-of-a kind pump apparently used in very few other applications. WHY would "they" make that decision? All they had to do was tweak the mounting bracket design slightly, and they could have used the Vickers pump, same as on my coach.
I don't mean this as a criticism of FOT or the factory employees who built these wonderful coaches. I just have to wonder what was going on in the engineer's heads...it baffles me.
I have a seperate power steering pump that is bolted to the engine (CAT 3176b). The fan pump is a tandem pump Haldex. These are the numbers off of it;
Haldex
W9A2-1800118
15DEC2000
Attached is the schematic that I received with my rig, there are 2 hoses for each pump section.
Pierce,
Maybe say 9 smaller fans, three rows of three, bring them on one row at a time with temperature switches as necessary?
JD
OK Last comment which seems to have been misunderstood. FT built the coach and have records of everyone of them (so it seems by many other comments over last few years) and this is what I was referrring to that if anyone should know what fits what it is FT. I was not commenting on their decision at the time of build of what type of pump etc to use, just that it was an" XYZ" and that it would have certain design characteristics over another one etc. Unless it had been changed out by a PO and FT did not know, but highly unlikely.
That is all.
JohnH
Just got this from Concentric:
"1800465 is the unit with the extended shaft for the Foretravel application.
1303201 is the same mount, displacement and ports with a standard extension and is a shelf stock pump."
The first number is the Haldex number stamped on the case. The second is from the Concentric sticker on the end on the pump. I think that either Foretravel got a standard pump instead of the custom one they needed, and somehow this one didn't get returned, OR Foretravel sent the wrong pump. Anyway, this afternoon we'll be with our friends and maybe we can find a solution. From what Concentric said, it sounds like this pump is unique to Foretravel, and maybe even just U300 coaches.
New update:
Last week we headed north a day early to visit our friends and took along both pumps and the old pulley. The old pump got a seal kit and a thorough inspection. It was tested and is in new condition now. I sent a message to Cabin Diesel telling them that and that we would be back today. A few minutes later I got a phone call saying they would come in tomorrow (they are supposed to be closed) to get it installed and send us on our way!
Cabin Diesel has really worked to help us. I will keep them in mind for other work.
It looks like we have a winner, congratulations Pierce
Final update on this: Short version is we're finally in Stillwater and all is good.
Long version: Foretravel used a standard pump, but with a proprietary shaft that is 1/2 inch longer than standard on the U300 coaches. I don't know about others, but at least some used a standard pump. Concentric bought Haldex some years ago, and as far as anyone can tell, Foretravel is the only one that uses this oddball shaft. Foretravel didn't have any of the right ones in stock, and won't for some time. A friend of ours has a machine shop and is an old-time mechanic. He got the service manual from Concentric and decided that he could rebuilt the pump IF nothing was damaged internally. Since we were going past his place on our way to family anyway, I brought both old and new pumps to him. His thought was that if the long shaft was okay, but the case was damaged, he could at least put the long shaft into the new pump.
As it turned out, all was fine with the old pump. A test here had it not producing proper pressure, but after a seal kit it works as well as a new pump. The shaft and gears are in new condition, even after more than 20 years of service. You can still see the machining marks on them. I called Cabin Diesel to give them the good news and verify that we would return to the coach on 1 January. Shortly after that phone call Cabin Diesel called me back. They were going to have a couple of guys come in on Friday (even though they were closed) to get us on the road again!
I brought the coach in about 8:00, and by 10:00 we were on the road. The weather hasn't been the best here, and it turned out that that was about the best time to be on the road. We're pretty much settled in here, and tomorrow I start working on the project.
I really appreciate all that Cabin Diesel did for us. They do have a little campground with full hookups there. Probably not a great place in July or August, but certainly is a reasonable choice for an overnight. WARNING: There is an old Route 66 cafe in Vinita that has excellent food. It has been in the same family for 80+ years and is only a few miles away. If you stay at Cabin Diesel they will tell you about it.
Thanks, also, to all of you forum friends who gave us advice here. We're at a private campground near Stillwater. If you are passing through give us a heads up and we'll see if we can meet you. I work Monday-Friday at the church. At this point I know we leave the campground about 0630. Don't know what time we get back. I'll know that tomorrow.
David, These is a salvage yard in KY, called Vision or some such, they had a FT in but that's all I can recall.
Gary B
I don't think Cabin Diesel went that far out searching, but they did try Colaw's. They even called Newell, which is just a few miles east. No luck at either place.
Visone. reports are of
ridiculously high prices
Wanted - Pair of Walnut Cabinet Doors (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=22565.msg172422#msg172422)
Switch panel source (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=21792.msg163441#msg163441)
I was just going to mention the same thing. I guess if you really needed a part and they had it you'd probably have to bite the bullet.
These hydraulic system components are usually designed for industrial use. This means 24/7 operation (8765hrs in a year). That they "wear out" on a motorhome is something I'm not buying. Leaking seals is usually the first thing we notice. My hypothesis, though not proven, is that using diesel oil isn't the best thing for the systems. There's nothing to really wear out on these components, they are pretty darn simple.
As I understand it, something caused one of the hydraulic fan motors to seize, which caused a loss of fluid. The original motors are NLA, hence a switch to something newer, which also involved changing the hydraulic speed switch. The concern with the pump was that it had been run dry, and when Cabin Diesel tried turning it by hand it seemed to bind sometimes. They say they "tested" it and it wasn't putting out the pressure it should. The guess from those who actually had the pump apart was that maybe some bit of crud got in the pump. At any rate, the rebuild was quite a bit cheaper than the new pump.