About a month ago I discovered my block heater was burned out. I realized how dependent I was on it for starting in cold weather and that a second heating unit would be a good backup as well as helping speed things up if I was in a hurry. I was never really happy with the stock heater - even left on all night starts in cold weather were difficult. Some might remember a previous post that discussed a second alternative block heater for 6V92s: Block heater for DD (split from 91 or 92 Grand villa Unihome?) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=22286.0) It was supposed to do a better job being lower in the block.
So I ordered a heater for the factory location (same one used on a CAT C7 engine): Engine Block Heater Cat C9 15 16 Detroit Diesel Heater | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Block-Heater-CAT-C9-15-16-Detroit-Diesel-Heater-/351270664589?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51c95cf98d&vxp=mtr)
As well as one that goes where the A/C compressor is mounted: New Hotstart Block Heater DDV 151B 1500 Watts 120 Vac | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-HOTSTART-BLOCK-HEATER-DDV-151B-1500-WATTS-120-VAC-/151021859837?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23299ab3fd&vxp=mtr) without knowing for sure exactly how I was going to install it with the A/C bracket in the same space. Sorry, it looks like there are no more available on Ebay (at least right now).
Once I had both installed I did a little testing to compare each - see attached. The lower heater does work much better and the heat rise effect is quite evident in the testing. The stock heater is particularly ineffective on rear radiator coaches - the heat rises right up through a pipe into the radiator! Something I've always noticed but did realize how much of that heat that wasn't going to the engine. If using the stock heater, I would suggest running the aux. pump to help distribute the heat - especially true if you have a rear radiator. Side radiator coaches should do better since the radiator is about 18" lower and the hoses to the fill tank (which is higher) are much smaller.
I did consider some of the "tank" style units but didn't like the idea of more hoses and clamps as possible leak points and more clutter around the engine. I like the propane fueled idea but in reality we don't boondock much in cold temps anyway. If we do, I'll just have to run the generator with both heaters on (3000 watts) with the aux. pump running.
I haven't had the chance to do real life tests in single digit weather yet. I've done only two starts so far (40F and 28F) in my shop with the (lower) heater on all night. I could feel the heat rise out of the engine compartment when I raised the bed in the morning. The whole top of the engine was in the mid 70'sF or warmer. Started like it was summer - no misses at all.
Thanks to Andy 2 and OldManSax for showing photos of their setups in the prior above post.
Glad it worked out, I have started mine when the temps are in the single digits and even below 0 fires every time I just flip the switch and let it do it's thing. When it's cold like it is now it's and all night er.
I have the lower block style heater (behind the A/C compressor on my Wanderlodge (6V92). I started in last year at -12F. Ran the heater about 4 hours & it started right up.
TOM
@John that's brilliant! Another project added to my list. Thanks for the write up.
see ya
ken
John,
Great job and thanks for the excellent write-up with detailed instructions and photos!
@Ken another project in the works for me too!
I replaced my upper block heater with a similar 1500 watt heater last year. Bought it on Ebay thanks to Pierce.
Good thinking! I can now confidently add a lower heating element knowing that this will double the heating capacity and shorten the time. Even though I don't live in cold country I am planning for the future. Having two separate heaters will also add some redundancy to the system.
How much coolant did you lose?
With that much wattage is a separate power line necessary?
Does your Aux pump run with just the switch in the on position? I want to test mine. I believe all the U300's have these pumps as standard equipment.
Thanks again,
Jerry
I have no idea of the true technical needs of your 6v's and my info is probably incorrect but I seem to remember just needed a long starter time to start diesels in real winter weather.
Lots of cold smoke.
My rememberance is up to 60 seconds of crank time?
Then a five minute mandatory cool down.
Does that work and apply to a detroit?
I was and intend to be a dry camper and 3000 watts of electricity for four hours would mean lots of gen run time.
Do your coaches have ether start systems? And/or does that work on a detroit.
Obviously starting a warm engine is best but what if that's not available?
I can use my Aqua hot on my m11 but it does have a ether start switch on the dash and I would intend to use it in specific conditions I think.
Just like backup systems and knowledge.
Like I said the cold crank start will fog a large area so I understand not using it.
Just would like to know options myself.
Started many un preheated diesel's in sub zero conditions long ago as we were skiers.
V8 detroits and 3208 cats mainly but a few scattered detroits in above zero just needed a shot of ether and a long crank time and boosted batteries.
Birds had battery heaters in them to build up amps and not freeze partially discharged batteries.
I understand most would not want to do this but knowing an alternative would be helpful IMO.
There are several threads about using ether. Some coaches came with an ether bottle in the engine area with a switch up front. Most people seem to think that ether isn't a good idea.
I like the idea of putting the heater farther down. Sounds like that would be a good time to change the coolant, too.
David,
The lower location is perfect but before you buy a new block heater, pull the AC pump mounting bolts and see if the block has the opening in the casting for the heater.
Pierce
Jerry, Thanks for the compliments.
I drained all of the coolant. With a rear radiator this location isn't far from the lowest spot in the system. There was a little bit of coolant puddled in that area where the heater goes that I had to mop up with paper towels.
Oh, I forgot to mention that. 1500 watts will pull 12.5 amps typically, so I couldn't just plug the second heater into the same outlet. I added a separate circuit for the second heater and used the bed switch that used to be used for old hot water heater (new water heaters use a 12volt switch for the electric element). The old outlet for the original block heater was in bad shape so I installed a new outlet there. I also used "outdoor in-use" receptacle covers. The new outlet box for the lower heater has to be on the passenger side or the chord wont reach.
Yes, ignition has to be on. I flip the boost switch on too to make sure the start battery is topped off and not being drained by the pump and ignition loads.
You guy's should check out a Espar D5 coolant heater. About a grand but you can fine them on ebay for less from time to time,diesel fired etc.
http://www.espar.com/fileadmin/data/countrysites/EB_Kanada/pdf/Hydronic_D5_-SC-S-E_Spec_sheet.pdf (http://www.espar.com/fileadmin/data/countrysites/EB_Kanada/pdf/Hydronic_D5_-SC-S-E_Spec_sheet.pdf)
Or maby something like this
Tank Type Engine Coolant Circulating Block Heater 850W Diesel Kats Brand | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/TANK-TYPE-ENGINE-COOLANT-CIRCULATING-BLOCK-HEATER-850W-DIESEL-KATS-BRAND-/111236556700?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item19e637279c)
My guru buddy installs these in buses
Low amp draw. Tiny fuel. Good for bay heating with a fan radiator?
22 years use. No maintenace. Made in Germany
Wanting to follow in John's footsteps I've been haunting ebay for the last 7 months looking for a deal on the Kim Hotstart. No luck until yesterday. Snagged one for $39.99 plus $10 shipping. The best price I'd been able to find from a parts house was $139! After I won the auction the seller relisted another one if anybody else is looking for one.
Genuine Kim Hotstart Block Heater (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Kim-Hotstart-Block-Heater-V71-Series-Detroit-Diesel-DDV-151B-NEW-/252038735709)
see ya
ken
That is what I have on ours Ken and it works Great nice find !!
On newer diesels ( 4 stroke) all I have dealt with had glow plugs, which I prefer. I would never use ether with glow plugs, can damage an engine. On the DD's they don't have glow plugs, I've used either at the direction of "old" semi truck drivers that used it often, although I've never needed it for cold weather starting in N.C. I've used it for other reasons while working on fuel systems.
Wantabe
Please list the newer diesel's that have glow plugs.
Small diesels (like for generator) YES.
Coach engine-- NO. Intake manifold heaters are used.
Truck diesels are direct injection on top of the piston and don't have glow plugs as they would be very difficult to engineer the design on a direct injection engine. Direct injection engines are about 5% more efficient compared to indirect injection.
The indirect injection generators fitted to our Foretravels don't have altitude compensating injection pumps (more expensive) so tend to smoke a little and smell at higher altitudes. Plus, in cold weather at altitude, they don't start all that well even with good glow plugs. Not really my favorite engine.
Older truck Detroits that you speak of w/o turbos have 19 to 1 compression ratio so start instantly in most weather. Detroit generators are fitted with pistons that give the optimum compression ratio for the altitude that they are used at. Our FD non-turbo Detroits didn't have block heaters but started on the first revolution when the first piston came up to TDC.
Pierce
I say again
SOUTH IN THE WINTER !!!
NORTH IN THE SUMMER !!!
Hard to argue with that!
P
Amen, but with one minor addition:
South in the winter
North
(or high elevation) in the summer
Quite a lot of us from Texas enjoy the 8,000'+ area of Northern NM (Eagle Nest and Angel Fire being favorites).
2 degrees C. Per 1000 ft on a standard day
That usually works for us. Every few years, we're glad we have our northern clothes on board, though. We are 38 miles from the Mexican border and tonight expect a hard freeze for a few days! We'll survive, plenty of propane & all that's important, including a block heater!
As per Wolfe10
TOO DARNED HIGH
M11 does not have intake heaters and has an ether intake port. Used ether many times skiing. Plus 60 second crank time