I had a chance to look at the new Realm at the Tampa Rv show and I must say, I am not impressed with exterior Paint and Finish. Lots of orange peel and not show quality paint. Also not impressed with finish quality of interior cabinets. Clearly other brands selling for less have done a better job on both these areas. Anybody else at the show feel the same way?
And that is the problem isn't it. Folks look to the exterior of everything, if it shines and glitters it must be good. No concern about the "bones" and how long the basic stricture will last. My DW and I are full timing in a twenty one year old coach that was NOT in good condition when purchased and far from "glitzy". BUT the BONES are solid. I have no idea how you market sound undercarriage and structure in today's glitz expectancy.
Roland
The amount of extra effort required to produce a nice paint job and nice cabinetry work--especially for a unit going to the "show"--is insignificant in the big scheme of costs.
"The amount of extra effort required to produce a nice paint job and nice cabinetry work--especially for a unit going to the "show"--is insignificant in the big scheme of costs." Very true. Even if the factory technically loses money on the show coach, they will more than make it up in sales. Since the outside is the first thing a customer sees, I would think that the exterior of a show coach would be absolutely flawless. Yes, that should be the case for all coaches, but we know that that doesn't happen. If I was looking to spend somewhere around $1,000,000 for a new coach and I saw a poor paint job on the show coach, why would I think that the one they might build for me would be any better? I'd just keep on walking.
Last month we got to tour the Newell factory and saw the show coach being built. We could have gone in, but there were so many people working on it that we decided not to. That coach was getting more attention than the others on the line. I suspect that they will sell that coach for somewhat less than a similar spec coach, so they will maybe break even on it. If that coach sells even one more coach than they would have sold otherwise, though, they make it all back.
What did Foretravel have there besides the Realm?
Next to the Realm was a IH-45 which did not have these paint and finish issues or at least I didn't see them. The Realm is priced to compete with coaches in the 5-7 Hundred Thousand dollar range and I can tell you the competition in my opinion is better. As far as bones Sparten Chassis are common and engines are similar. Flexsteel and Villa is common. I too have a 20 year foretravel .. coach with good bones and I can tell you the wood and finish work in my coach is better than the Realm and my exterior gelcoat while twenty years old is as good. If Foretravel is to continue to compete as a quality builder it must pay attention to every facet of the coach, ones the eye can see as well as those it can't .The American car makers finally learned that lesson. Quality is not defined by price alone. A quality product is one that provides the best value given a set of requirements.
That is very disappointing. The Realm was designed to match the King Aire. I hope they sell some but it looks like they did not put their best foot forward from the sounds of things.
I said a while ago that the Phenix and the Essex came out about the same time and they produced over 1000 Essex coaches and the insides were very nice. We have no where near that many coaches across all the models in the same time period. They sold for the same price, so that was not the issue either.
Monaco show coaches had extra clear coat apllied for an FMCA rally.
I am certainly no "paint" expert or even close. But was at FOT while the Realm was being readied for the Tampa Show.
For me, I was amazed at the number of "QC Stickers" found all around the exterior of the coach, marking paint imperfections.
Some were very obvious to me and others I simply could not identify what the defect was, obviously far better trained eyes did give it a close look. I believe the factory guys understood the importance of this coach, but from previous comments have a ways to go to meet the competition. Did not go inside the coach. Certainly wish FOT the very best.
A while back , I spoke to "Biscuit" . Got on the subject of clear coat and he said all Foretravel's get (7) seven coats . What I notice is what I read , and have been told by the factory guys . What I don't like about it is that they used less than the top shelf Aqua Hot with a single electric heating element , and a 270 amp alternator instead of a (320 and the ISX ) , and the 1930s front look of Packard autos. $$$ must rule in the sales area . Brad Metzger
I was thinking Duesenberg, but whatever vintage auto is their inspiration, this puppy has too much cheap looking stick-on chrome for my tastes.
But then again, I'm clearly not in the target market. Heck, I'll be driving my coach to Q tomorrow and camping on the dirt without hookups.
I really wonder if anyone at FOT is reading this thread. It appears to me the company is operating open loop.
Why reinvent the wheel? I bet the design from 2000 with some minor updates could be made and sold for under 500k. The design work is all done. Correct marketing and worthwhile updates and they could go back to production numbers they had before. Oh, and a dealer network!
Normal procedure would be to amortize design costs & prototype setup & build costs over a projected number of units.
The drawings, tooling, etc are already there...thus there is no associated cost!
Sorry Krush, I was referring to the Realm and its layout inside. Undoubtedly lots of new details and drawings/jigs/fixtures have to be made if new sizes or new positions/mounting to coach floor or walls. Everything has to be figured to minimize waste and maximize profit.
Guys this turning into an interesting discussion howeveretravel we can talk about design and interiors forever but Foretravel must pay attention to the overall quality and the value a customer expects for there money. Clearly others have pointed out items like a cheap Auqua Hot etc. If we see these items others do to. Foretravel doesn't have to sell us we already love the product. Its the other buyers that they need to attract away from other brands if they are to grow the business. Every coach needs to be as near perfect when delivered and a coach going to a show for public view must as good or better. First impressions last a long time.
The custom ft chassis is hand built in low volumes with no automation, or labor/material economies of scale.
That is why the Realm is built on a production commercial chassis. FT can't build the custom chassis for anything near what they can buy these commercial chassis. My guess is the nature of the relationship is that the dealer agreed to buy a minimum (10?) of these units so that FT could be insured of making enough on those 10 units to recover engineering costs.
The Realm was designed, both interior and exterior specifications, Aquahot etc. by Motor Home Specialists. The quality of construction and paint is Foretravel. The limited amp of alternator power and and the lack of other chassis specs area all Sparten. I think if you don't like the design of front end or rear end the people you should be addressing is the dealer. The fact it doesn't have HWH components for drivability is a cost constraint that was considered and based on volume was rejected. This Realm relationship was developed by the dealer selling the IH Foretravel and their belief that they could sell a model similar to the Entegra Cornerstone. This they can do with the Realm. It was not ever designed to be Foretravels's entry coach. The Dealer is the largest Entegra dealer in the USA so they felt I assume, moving ten a year would not be a problem. They fronted all the development costs as well as the purchase of the chassis from Sparten. I find it amazing that no matter what Foretravel does some of you especially with older coaches, who have no intention of ever buying a new 2015 or eventually newer motor home have so many gripes with something that will alienate potential buyers, when you have no vested interest in the bad press.
There are many of us with "older" coaches who would buy a newer coach
if they met our stated wants/needs. At the moment, what's being built doesn't. We, and others active here, personally represent a large portion of the forum who will likely own multiple additional coaches in our RVing lifetime and are, at present, an untapped market because we haven't found a newer coach of any brand that can compare to what is now a decade-or-more older FT. And yes, we do look fairly actively at what's out there.
I'm sorry that's simply not true the same members on this forum bash Foretravel at every opportunity. I did not say that they were not capable of buying a new coach I stated they simply would never buy one. look at the remarks not on this post but on countless others. I detect a large amount of animosity that I cant understand that always shows up. $25 increase as example. That increase is miniscule to the over all cost of operating a motor home, but it was a tab of over 7 pages. If they want pricing like 1999-2003 with like quality it doesn't nor will it ever again. I have owned and bought 4 brand new Foretravels and each was better than the last. I will not be buying another due to my age and life circumstances. However I will always support the parent company and when I have a gripe I send an e-mail to Lyle who does answer me personally. Spreading the family's dirty linen justly or unjustly on the internet is not proper or fair to any company. That's my opinion and I know what that is worth but its still mine as your is still yours and just as valid as mine.
How do you know what we will be doing should something come along that interests us??
I for one am always looking every day, in fact at not only FT but Newell and Prevost so the Realm price does not bother me, but, if quality is not there then "bye bye".
There is quality and care in every make and value and if it does not meet my level for the money I will say so. I have only seen pictures of it but the front end does not attract me at all, looks like any SOB, so that is a negative start for me. If M H S reckon they can sell them then good on them and FT too, but I see no other reason we cannot critique them if we wish!
I would suggest that you both not write on Forum as nothing seems to make you happy with what the majority of this Forum say's.
Would it not be funny if your coach breaks down somewere and for some reason you do not get an instant reply from J T on what to do, and a Forum member comes to your rescue right away and without the $25 premium fee!!
Just my opinion again.
JohnH
The hallmark of this forum is the open exchange of ideas and information on our common interest, Foretravel RVs. I know that it is not always favorable to FT but it is the members opinion or a fact and there is much more that is favorable. As to some of the negatives, I think there is much more positive then negative posted overall by a large margin. I believe that FT has moved away from the existing installed base of motorhomes with their drive to stay in business. That is what all business do but they also hear the comments on here for a smaller cheaper motorhome and as a result they put out a survey in the motorcader magazine that we just received.
I know that I will not be buying an IH. It is too tall for the east coast and that means they are not producing a coach for me. I had a friend who owned a U320 and was looking for a new coach and got an Entegra and another long time owner, two actually, bought bus conversions. That tells me that FT is leaving its older installed owner base behind. The realm is a speed coach that they are now selling at the factory as well as at MHS but time will tell if it is successful.
The poster's coach is a 2008 model. That means that the chance of receiving an answer to request for help is almost non existent. Why? Because there are few members that have a coach newer than a 2005. The newer coaches have systems far different from the older coaches. Just my opinion.
I would like to point out that the poster has been a ForeForum member since 2004.
Hatteras Yachts followed the same path as Foretravel--they stopped producing smaller boats that were under 1.5 to 2mil. It eventually hurt them hard. They then started either bought or merged with Cabo boats to make boats in the 45' range ago...and now under new ownership are making a 45' (looks to be a Cabo badged as a Hatteras).
Going after big money is great. The margins may be better, but the volume isn't there. It's amazing how companies just ignore what made them a strong company in the first place. The SOB's sell lots of units because they are cheaper and have a strong dealer network. It is what it is, but I still don't understand the risk in doing a run of traditional 2000 style FT's. All the costs are variable...no new tooling or design work would have to be done.
Unfortunately, the power plant and cooling package changes pushed from Cummins would make for fairly significant engineering costs to adapt even a pre-2010 chassis design to the currently-available drivetrains. Tyle Fore mentioned this a few years ago as a huge issue for Foretravel during one of our factory tours. At one point recently, the Cummins changes were forcing major chassis redesigns annually and rolling those design/development/tooling costs into small volume production becomes impractical.
I guess we can thank the EPA!
There will probably be a black market for pre 2008 drivetains LOL
And do the math, 121 posts in that time. This is the only one I can recall, and he is blasting all the regulars for not praising everything Foretravel does.
This is not the Foretravel of old. Maybe it's a sign of the times and the way things must me in order to survive.
I know i am one of the members esaulten has issues with. I feel the current management at FOT is not listening to the base of current owners, who are well represented here.
We went from free factory telephone support, to only available for an added fee with MC membership. and we weren't even told about it until after renewal time. So here I sit without the support I thought I had. I believe the management could have handled this much better.
We went from motor coaches the majority of us find usable, to much a lower production volume of coaches too tall and long for many of us. The management appears to listening to someone other than the majority of forum members.
I would dearly love to do as many of you have, and move to a newer (but not brand new) coach someday. Unfortunately, in a few years time, when I would be looking, there won't be any under 40 foot 2015 Foretravels (or even Rhelms) for me to consider buying.
It appears the FOT management is listening only to MHS, producing IH and Rhelms that MHS wants. I fear, this along with them not listening to their installed base of customers, will eventually lead to a change of ownership. I fear the new owner will be MHS, and FOT will be downgraded to a captive manufacturing division.
I challenge anyone from FOT to dispute what I have said, either here or give me a call. My ForeForums handle is my real name and my MC number is in my signature. They know how to make contact. I won't be holding my breath. I fear this management team no longer cares.
Hopefully the EPA changes are done for a while and that FT can engineer a chassis that they can build on for a while. I am pretty interested in how this Realm sells and if they get an order for another set of coaches. If so, I would think that it will be the direction they will take. They do the command coaches on a Freightliner chassis too. It is a small niche industry but hopefully the lower fuel prices will remove one hurdle to increasing sales.
If they sell 10 realms that will be a big portion of their production that they will make this year. I do hope they sell them but I also think that they have not listened in the past but I do think they are starting too. And truthfully that scares me a bit.
quote"I would like to point out that the poster has been a ForeForum member since 2004.
I do not understand again what that has to do with my comment" ?
If someone has Lyle R in his pocket to get instant replies then that answers my feelings that it would be hard to give real life answers that may be negative. he may not answer your next call!!
JohnH
I suspect you are correct about 2015 models. However, looking at the Foretravel sale archives showed a 2013 Nimbus 36, a 2013 nimbus 38, and a 2013 Nimbus 40. I believe there will be some newer coaches coming available for members to move up to.
The great majority of the more than 2,000 FoFums have posted less than 100 times.
That is pure made up hogwash. Many systems on these coaches are basically the same, and many members have had other coaches that share the same or similar systems. You could make a claim for that on a IH45 I suppose, ~100 of those rolling around so I don't think anyone can help them other than the factory. And really *if* something is new, well its up to them to share knowledge with others, or perhaps keep it a closely guarded secret lol Shhh don't let anyone know as it may help others in the future! If there is no information and they don't share, really whos fault is that? If your not willing to share/help, don't complain when there is no free information.
+1 Thats the basis of any forum, its the willingness to ask a question, provide an answer and share information. Overall what I see is genuine concern that a brand they currently love may not be their next coach.
I don't know if I'd say cheap, honestly the cost of an early / mid 200x coach in todays CPI money is what 750k or there about. Somehow this miserable bunch was able to afford them. You should be able to deliver a fine coach for that and sell plenty IF you wanted that volume (and the problems) and IF you were building a coach that met those customers lifestyles. Frankly thats their business choice as well, they have chosen to pursue a market segment that IMO they are not able to support. Motorcader only survey?, I do hope they intend to look past that segment if they truly want to grow.
Same for us as you know. I can get a custom Pheonx built that would work but it would cost more than an IH45 or find some late year used one that works, or I can look at other brands, those are the options for me.
Exactly this. I also know several owners who have moved on to SOB's, as well. What Foretravel is producing, while very nice, did not stackup with the other options in that price segment -for them-. And this was a big deal to them, Foretravel loyal and certainly not their last motorcoach. Thats not to say the "new" ForeTravel 3.0, aka IH45 Foretravel era, will not be the sweet spot but it also means more of a new customer base then an old one, and breaking up is hard to do.
Why did the Fore family have financial problems. Was it mismanagement? Was it the coaches they were building? What would have happened if the current owners had not purchased the company? Would no Foretravel Company be better than the current Foretravel Company?
I have sold countless high line motorhomes and I learned long ago to hardly look at the exterior paint application and the designer fabrics.
almost universally the parts of the rv that should have the closest scrutiny are not the visible ones.
the references to newell and prevost are interesting and if I had not been in the biz and used every possible variation of rv myself I would like them also
there were no high line rvs with metal skins.
still remember the hailstorm at the minot fmca rally. killed dogs outside. destroyed 40% of the wally byman airstream attendies trailers. damaged every prevosts roof and upper sidewalls.
destroyed roof a/c covers and vents on the fiberglass coaches.
been there. no way. steel framed. fiberglass skinned. vacuum laminated sidewalls. plumbing in a tray under the floor versus bundled up against a frame rail.
I keep going through every system on our 97 as the shell and basic structure and wiring and plumbing were designed to be accessible and last almost unlimited time.
Well stated and I second it.
This has been an interesting thread, and I've been dreaming a bit about being in a position to buy a new coach. Personally, if I was that wealthy I'd probably ask about getting a new Grand Villa (yes, I'm dreaming).
As for factory support, when we were broken down last month I finally placed a phone call to James Triana. I actually talked to him a couple of times, and each time he was very concerned about our situation and came up with a couple of possible fixes/work-arounds. I could criticize the parts department for not having the proper pump, but what good would that do? They already know that they had the wrong pump in stock, and they have ordered more of the proper pump so that they will be able to help someone else.
The new coaches don't appeal to me because I don't like the "bling" look. If I could order a brand-new coach I suppose I could delete the mirrors on the ceiling, etc. and get a mainly white paint with a few color splashes instead of black, brown, and dark red that seems to be the current standard.
" Going after big money is great. The margins may be better, but the volume isn't there."
Duesenberg
Auburn
Cord
Pierce Arrow
Packard
Maybach
etc.
etc.
The bank looked at the number of coaches they had in stock that were used and called their loan on the floorplan loan they had. They said that without slides, the coaches were worth a lot less, so they called the loan and that was the initial issue. We had a time when there was no FT for us after that for a few months.
The issue is that they have to make a coach that will sell in the marketplace of today and the current realm, is probably their best bet to do that even if it is different from what we have as most owners.
Why is the new company unable to be profitable in 10 years
is it mismanagement,
is it the coaches they are building,
is it the expense of potential defects? (http://setexasrecord.com/news/300556-fla-family-blames-rv-illness)
Many RV company's went under in the early downturn, honestly ForeTravel got "lucky" that someone with deep pockets wanted to play and the price was right.
Is it better? Thats all perspective, when they bought it and my coach was under warranty sure it was, and when I would go there and could not get the oil changed because they had no filters and no one would sell them any parts, of course ... it was a god send.
Now, for me, I'm not sure it makes any difference. Not to be cold, just answering your question. ForeTravel is looking at customers as "what have you done for me today", so I will look at them with the same glasses. Special parts (and 08 begins to fall in that category now) are not available, they don't produce a product that fits me, the depreciation rate of the current product is phenomenal even for RV's, I can get a better service for less than $120 and hour (I don't have to wait 3 weeks in a parking lot to have them fix things they broke replacing parts).
Yes I know that will get some people all ruffled up as bashing, but that has been my recent experience, and one delivered and controlled by them. Why am I supposed to hide that and say its all perfect when its not? I'm not saying anything negative about the owners, don't know them, did not know the Fore's before them, hold none of them ill will, hope all are "rich beyond the dreams of avarice" if thats what they desire.
Me I'm just "a customer" and can only say what I've personally experienced and what I'm looking for.
Maybe I should change my name to the basher :P
I understand all the design decisions and funding came from outside of Foretravel, yet it says ForeTravel on the product. ForeTravel will never have a chance to explain any of those decisions to a potential customer who may be turned off. They are letting someone else control the brandname, time will tell how that works. Overall I think getting in to additional markets is a good thing, and its interesting twist with the dealers.
I've done many a product where we put our "badge" on their "product" and its an interesting set of tradeoff's. Really not sure the RV marketplace has that level of market segmentation, but then the only segment of the RV market I know is what I like ! In the end we always owned it good or bad, no one else.
behind the scenes in the 80's when I ran the California store was always the east Texas mentality. not bad just stubborn. they KNEW they knew better. they started to micro manage my store through the GM as he was from Nacogdoches himself.
I laughed in a way as as they were nice church of the Nazarene people and non drinkers that maybe if I had good results and was 1389 miles from them they might trust me to do it my way. property had appreciated greatly in ca in those days so there was a lot of new money around. made in a few years. not paying off a mortgage for 30 years money. kinda like gambling winnnings.
easier to spend for most. so I helped them spend it. helped me and foretravel and them.
did really well. sold 59 new in 1988. right place. right time.
mr fore and marie were terrible salesman as he told me personally. dark interiors.
MHS has a sales operation setup it seems. so the tail can wag the dog. they have the clout and money to order custom coaches. good for them and good for foretravel to build them.
the average customer now of days is not that well educated about the structure needed to build a long term quality coach.
requires a long term sales presentation. I averaged 21 months from meet and greet to driving off.
no way that can be done anymore. customer walks into a pro store and is turned to new salesman until he buys or is so burned he is never coming back. selling can be a science and a few dealers I worked for had physologists on the staff to analyze the salesman and the prospective customers.
the ones that left Foretravel got SOLD. Marketed. closed. I was an expert but preferred to do it the slow way as the repeaters were the proof. not afraid to let a prospect walk then. sold the product. not the glitz. especially as we had very little versus the pretty stuff even then.
so I custom made 50% of my sales. no one else could do that. plus the lighter coach went up the hills way faster in the rockies.
they were correct to not sell lower quality products except the rest of the industry got better salesman and prettier coaches an by the time you looked at a bunch of pretty, cheaper coaches how right could foretravel be?
and the DW liked them better. now you could go rving....
no way to learn that stuff anymore. the proliferation of multi slide coaches drove the price point and weight up enough to lose most medium asset buyers.
marketing sold the newbys
we used to take a buyers temperature long ago when you asked him if he was prepared to spend $1,500 a month for 15 years to own the coach he was looking at. got their attention right away.
now we are talking about enough money to buy a non depreciating nice custom house in a beautiful area.
no fix. the pretty but not made as well got ahead of foretravel. quality be darned. marketing won.
the motorcade club was a big help long ago pre internet as rving was more difficult and problematic and the support structure of the club was both necessary and caused a lot of retained brand loyalty. now we and I can use the internet and allstays and campground reviews on our own.
times march on. everything is interrelated anymore.
PERSONALLY,
I look forward to every post made by the owners of the "newer" Foretravels, GOOD or BAD.
I find it interesting to learn about all the facets of the newer coaches when told by the people who actually own and drive them.
Frankly, most topics relating to the repair and replacements on subjects like floors etc, have been covered over and over. As has the repair of mechanical components. That's GREAT for us old coach owners as we are ALWAYS fixing or having our OLD coaches repaired. Its a breath of fresh air to hear about the newer models.
If the owner of a "newer" Foretravel ever needs help in the Chicago area don't hesitate to contact me!
I may not be able to answer technical questions or fix your problem, but I sure will do ALL I CAN to make your problem less of a problem in any way I can.
I'm sure many other members here feel the same way. WE WELCOME YOU, PLEASE STICK AROUND!
How much do the major components cost Spartan as compared to how much they cost when Foretravel buys them directly?
How much automation does Spartan use as compared to how much Foretravel uses? Does Spartan use robots on a widespread basis?
How much "hand building" does Foretravel do on a Spartan chassis to make it ready to accept a Foretravel upper body? Pictures posted here in the past give me the impression Foretravel adds a lot to the Spartan chassis before the upper body goes on.
How much automation does Newell use when assembling their chassis?
I've been under the impression that Foretravel has been building their "TravelRide II" chassis for several years and so I would think that it would have made sense for them to incorporate a significant amount of automation.
If the Realm was
not designed to be Foretravel's entry-level coach then it shouldn't have Foretravel's name on it.
If Foretravel can't put their quality into the product then they should simply be a nameless supplier of the product owned, designed, and sold by MHS.
The Foretravel "name" once meant an extremely high-quality, high-level coach, and the value of that "name" should not be diluted.
Steve, Well Said, I think you nailed it for a lot of us. I will never have another Coach, FT or other due to health reasons but I would not take a second look at a Realm.
Gary B
REPLY #41
Bob, (+1) !
This is an accurate "big picture" summary of the years when we were first trying to understand and purchase our first (1998) FT.
Now if you just add in the early 2000's piece....where FT HAD FALLEN WAY BEHIND the industry full body paint and slides CRAZE....mixed in with a few poor business (mostly efficiency) decisions .......then, as a profit (as well as business) destroyer, got hit with the 2002 & 2003 end cap monsters......that's all that was needed to trigger the banks over the overvalued inventory and floorplan.
The 2004, 2005, 2006 slowdown years were torture for the longtime loyal FT Owners.
We loved CM & Marie. Have many warm memories of the (shy, introverted) Ray and the 80's & 90's Motorcade Club (MCC) driven friendships and loyalties from the early days. No internet so the MCC was the solid core and center of FT enthusiasm. The FoFum "glue" and brand strength of the day.
The MCC and the FT loyalty to customer service and satisfaction were the "glue" back then.
When we were asking, trying to decide what brand and model, in the early/mid 1990's, FT (Fore Family) LOYALTY to customer service and satisfaction was always in the top 1,2,3 reasons when we asked owners, what led you buy (or rebuy) FT?
Look back through a recent FoFum thread and see how many of the top reasons mention anything like FOT focus on customer satifaction (zero).
Lyle and the new backers saved us from what looked like certain doom. Bless them. I wholeheartedly support them.
I don't understand their current strategies and have tried to contribute what I think I have for valuable background and experience, several times directly to Lyle and Gregg.
I come from an industry where one didn't survive unless one sought out and adjusted to stakeholder feedback. I got to be pretty good at it and cracked some really tough nuts in the industry. I was never able to get anywhere with Lyle or Gregg though.
Not a problem, but behind the facade, I have no sense of whether there is strength and purpose or just ?
I just have a sense that today's business executives (not just FOT) undervalue history and core values.
Anyway, thanks again Bob. I enjoy your perspectives a great deal.
Neal
Today's executives are for the most part, clueless. They were groomed and came through the ranks during the wonderful 90's and early 2000's when everybody in the world was making money. Combine this with the [foolish] idea that an MBA and rotational program is all true leaders need and that a "manager is a manager" (you can thank Jack Welch for this...who contrary to all the bean counters that admire him, really gutted the know how of GE), and you got clowns that fail miserably.
Most management at companies now spend more time sending emails, making powerpoints, and having conference calls than getting down and dirty and solving real problems. America was built on leadership that got dirty and came through the ranks.....now the over abundance of college "educated" management can't solve their way out of a hole in the ground *hint, stop digging, first*.
I believe that is what the current owners are trying to maintain with the new ih45.
I may be wrong, but I believe that the Nimbus is the entry level coach. I know that the Nimbus was still being built as recently as 2013.
I hope that the Realm is financially successful. If so, it may provide the support necessary for the company to continue with the current strategy.
This is all discouraging for me. My wife and I are in our mid 50's. We are semi-retired and we plan to buy a coach in the next year or two to fully retire. We've always camped...as backpackers then tent camping then a popup when the kids arrived. Life got busy and we last this lifestyle behind, knowing we'd full time at some point.
We never considered a motorhome until I found this forum. We don't like shiny and sparkly and fell in love with the classic old school design that Foretravel features. I'll take solid wood over laminate any time.
The passion these classic coaches inspires is awesome. The support this forum offers is amazing. Our research helped us decide that. 36-38 foot 1998-2002 320 would be perfect for us.
I just hope foretravel support and parts availability continues or we will be back at the drawing board.
Realistically we need this support for another 20 years in order for this to make sense for us. ;D
For those whom have not heard this story, I would like to share it with you.
Before Lyle Reed and his team purchased Foretravel, Mr. Reed had purchased a Foretravel. He traveled around the country in the Foretravel rather than flying around in airplanes.
Later on, Mr. Reed and team purchased Foretravel. Some time later, Mr. Reed and some Foretravel managers were taking a trip in a new Foretravel ( I forget the model they were traveling in). One of the Foretravel employees asked Mr. Reed if he thought it was about time for him (Reed) to drive a Foretravel. He did.
The story is that all the time that Mr. Reed was traveling around the country in his Foretravel, He never drove it. He had a driver.
I personally find this topic has degraded to no more than a gripe session. Here is the truth - if the current owners did not buy the company, then Foretravel would not exist today. Go ahead and slam the company on this forum. It only shows the little support some members of this forum have for the company. I wonder why we do not follow the old saying - if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. If the new product line is not for you, lets not slam it to the ground.
Bob
We also absolutely hope that Foretravel can be successful in the long run, and it may well be that producing a variety of specialized products for various markets is the appropriate way to generate cash flow. My concern is that the Realm "dilutes" the Foretravel name and therefore should not wear the Foretravel label.
It is important to realize that if the company makes the wrong decisions
today, then it will not exist in a few years. Many of the comments here are not "gripes." Rather, they are intended (I believe) as suggestions regarding how the company can make the
right decisions. The company should be wise enough to listen and appreciate the feedback from those who truly love the products the company has produced over the years.
I believe the company does listen and appreciate the feedback from those who love the products.
Company representatives (Mr. Reed, and other top management) were present and talked at both the 2014 Grandvention and the 2014 Ladies Driving School. As John S has said many times, FOT Management is listening and trying to do right by Foretravel owners.
Foretravel has had old trade in inventory and new production cash flow issues several times. long ago Don Carter who was a dealer in Kansas for them bought their entire inventory new and used to save them. 30+ years ago.
Spartan has done a nice job of marketing their brand. so their is a certain amount of product already built it.
the spread air bag suspension and the semi monocoque structure that were so far ahead of the rest of the industry and powered so many sales were diluted by the independent front suspension and the added center frame rails needed for the structures support of multiple slide outs.
originally the IFS drove poorly. Active Air fixed that. a tag axle in the rear seems to have added needed stability to the entire coach versus a non tag inboard mounted air suspension design.
no chassis builder will put the air bags in line with the tires. too much liability.
the other design unique to the unihome/unicoach was the ability to mount the steering box on the spread chassis not on the frame rail. the long pittman arm decreased or eliminated the "bump" steer that mounting the steering box on the frame caused with a straight front axle.
IFS fixed that issue.
other than the rear airbags being spread the unihomes original design is not needed as much anymore for the structural strength and driveability.
Ah. one large issue is the longer length necessary to add the storage lost inside and underneath with the tag and multi slides space loss.
50% or so storage loss on similar length multi slide and tag axled coaches is what I have seen personally and has been mentioned here.
industry is selling to the DW's to a larger extent and the boys are supposed to be smart enough to figure out all the technical stuff.
the laminated fiberglass side wall is a large advantage if sold properly. dealer will not hard sell that as any other brand they sell then is inferior.
factory can promote that difference only IMO.
hard to be different enough anymore for foretravel and the club advantages have been diluted. the clubs members being friends after meeting has been replaced by Facebook for a lot of the younger folks.
they gather around the electronic campfire as it were.
heck I am not a front door fan. where does that leave me?
time and technology marches on.
MHS did not need foretravel but having a texas manufacturer for a texas sales place helps the customer who has to go to the factory to see how they make their coach.
customers get lost some times going a long way to a distant factory and slip and fall and buy something else at a dealer or factory they just stopped at to look on the way.
better to keep them in a closer circle.
where you want to rv and what comfort level you are expecting and how much storage you need and how much length you are willing to horse around are a bigger part of the buying decision anymore.
no one, but maybe a few of us here would ask "are slides necessary?" for my uses, no....
my 2 cents.
quote"I believe the company does listen and appreciate the feedback from those who love the products." end quote from LTG.
Good and I am glad that the owners are now listening to present owners of all stripes in their quest to make FT quality and after market help the way it seems to have been before I bought into this Dream?
So, with that said I guess we all will be recieving an email from them asking for our personell ideas on the way they should go and any suggestions what to do. This may seem to be a stupid comment for some but surely this would be a way to get started and listen to owners ideas.?
There is a guy here in Canada and his name is Jimmy Patterson who started with a car lot in Vancouver and is now the richest man in Canada worth Billions. He owns dozens of companies and is in his late 80s now BUT he still goes to his businesses unanounced and sits down and talks to staff and asks for ideas. He is always involved with the building of new properties (he owns one of Canadas largest food retail outfits too) and was at our local store just recently because one of the staff thought the colour of the floor was wrong. He came himself the 250miles to look at it and said he actually liked the fresh look so it stayed. The store is open and booming compared to before change over. He did not want a decision by any one else as he is involved with every facet of it and responsible for the end result. Not one negative comment has ever been filed against him that I know of because he is of the old school and is all HANDS ON and wants the public to like what he does. He said "why spend all that money if the public do not like what you are doing before it is done"?
Now if some others followed the same rules they may be successful too.
JohnH
Foretravel management is receiving input and ideas from Foreforum members. There were 13 Fofums at the 2014 Grandvention in Shawnee, Oklahoma and 11 Fofums at the 2014 Foretravel Driving School. As I recall, all (if not all, almost all) provided input at the question and answer meetings.
I think you are safe, where there is interest and passion there is support ^.^d . While there are parts for older coaches, and even not so old, that may no longer available, folks are very willing to share what they have done to get around those issues. Sometimes it is a replacement part, sometimes its how to fix what you have, sometimes its a bit more involved. In the end there is help to keep you moving down the road.
Don't let the fact that we all know what's best for ForeTravel and like to argue about it discourage you. Sometimes criticism can be worded better or received better, in the end we are all trying to convey our thoughts. And of course there is always a fringe element on either end of a discussion, that's great for the added spice !
You know there are folks who don't come here much since all we do is bash foretravel, and to balance that point of view, there are those that don't come here much because you can't say anything bad about foretravel ... also ... you can't post about getting work done at any place other than foretravel vs all they talk about is not getting work done at foretravel ... Oh and foretravel monitors all the posts and email vs foretravel needs to monitor the forum and reply back to all questions. Yes I have the notes, a happy, yet often odd, balance. I feel overall most everyone gets it, there is no hidden ajenda, well other than to get more folks in foretravels because we love them, new, old, whatever and help them enjoy the ride.
Just because foretravel is not currently building a coach that meets someones needs does not mean they can not post about it, and if they are building one that meets your needs does not mean others should go away. Even the no sliders vs sliders or GV vs Bus can get along.
Also to note "the management" has been favorable about the forum. They have noted it has helped build / extend the following, brought people to the mother ship for various things (service/parts/remod/etc), help reduce some aspects of support, and a couple of other positives that they conveyed on one of our visits.
@John S has had more discussions in that regard. Of course every rose has some thorns that come with them, and they have tried to address some cough "bashing", where they can, to improve, such as the tech sign off that was put in to place in service, etc.
Enough typing for now, I'm behind on my daily error log check !
Just some thoughts.
Realm is 13' 3" WITHOUT satellite dish. Interstate is mostly 14' Lots of trees lower than that.
Spec and appearance to the uninitiated is about the same as IH45.
Was impressed at how wonderful new coaches from Winnabago and the like looked. Almost as nice as Foretravel. (Don't open a draw or count the staples folks).
How to educate the wealthier masses to quality is the problem?
Would love to see a simple quality interior without all the bling. Would stand out amongst the rest. Have heard quite a few comments on overly busy interiors.
If only there was an updated Grand Villa made. I remember seeing a blue one that was custom made in 2002 (?) on here. Looked great.
Flash and dazzle brings 'em in. Quality brings 'em back.
Keith
Don't despair quite yet, don't know if you're a boater but there's kind of a parallel between Foretravels and a particular boat, the Bertram 31. Lots of these going on 50 year old fiberglass boats running around, many restored to better than new condition and doing hard service daily as charter vessels. There has never been another boat built that achieved the well deserved reputation of the Moppie. Performance, safety, handling and the elusive ability to raise fish came together in this design by C Raymond Hunt. Most of them have been re-engined, re-fuel tanked several times along with a steady diet of cosmetic repairs and enhancements, often by owners who can buy a new boat at any price. The Foretravels you are talking about were built pretty much as right as humanly possible. The body, frame, etc., are bulletproof, major collision would be the only dealbreaker in the event of no factory support. Everything Foretravel did on these coaches is built to last and this is proven. Engines, running gear, refrigerators, pumps, air conditioners....these are generic items and easily serviced anywhere. That quality is what inspires the passion that is occasionally whipped into flame, as on these pages.
David, I was just quoting Lyle from Granvention two years ago. Those were the specific issues he quoted on why the custom FT chassis is expensive and drives up the cost of IH and Phoenix.
His words on their costs, not something I guessed at.
Hmmm, not a lot of 15 year old quality coach manufacturers still around to support their coach for next 20 years. If that is a make or break in the deal, best not to bet on any manufacturer being around or desiring to support a product. I find the level of support by the factory on the early nineties FT's pretty amazing frankly.
Hmm, may need to resign from forum soon, this continues to be tiresome to read about.
Till I walk a mile in managements shoes, I won't be second guessing them. Only industry tougher to make a living and sustain through ups and downs in economy MIGHT be light aviation.
Yup, room for improvement at FT and just about every other business out there. I am glad they are in business. If leadership is giving you grief and causing angst, perhaps consider a nice new or used Allegro bus.
First visit their owners and dealers and sample their quality and customer support feedback.
I always liked the adage "praise in public, correct in private."
As this thread has drifted FAR from the "Realm" initial topic, It has been fascinating for me to read some of the history that has been shared about marketing, sales, engineering, capital and owner/management.
The fact that FT is still in business is a profound one. I'm not the only forum member who formerly had a Barth, for which any manufacturer "support" vanished almost twenty years ago. After the Barth, I had a Pleasure-Way Class B. That company, like Road Trek, has remarkably remained viable. They are responsive to owners -- even owners of old units. In particular, there is ONE individual at PW who is a wealth of knowledge, is patient, and is cooperative. It makes a WORLD of difference, particularly for those of us with lesser skills and mechanical background.
I've been in brand-specific user groups for the Barth, Pleasure-Way and now ForeTravel. The first and last are loaded with a vast amount of data and some otherwise-obscure resources/techniques. It gives me so much more peace of mind than if I were left to my own cluelessness (couldn't believe the iMac let me use that word ;^)
??? and this would benefit you (or anybody) in what way??
I understand, but his statements do raise those questions in my mind . . . .
I was talking to Greg Amys one day and we were discussing the price of tires as I needed new ones. I told him the price I got on my XZA3s and the FMCA rate. He said it was lower then the rate he pays. That is the issue with low volume and producing the whole chassis. I am thinking we will see more of the Spartan Chassis as time goes on. It allows them to produce a coach that can compete on price.
I heard one of the salesman telling a guy they could get the Realm for $400K. I also noticed a lot of finish issues. The bathroom door was completely broken as well. Interior and exterior issues. The two coaches that wowed me were the American Eagle and the Newell. Especially that Newell. wow.
....yeh the Newell just outside the exhibition hall had a very long line leading up to see it inside....the FT's (inside the hall) were kinda busy but not like that....
I actually liked some aspects of the Realm. Now that we've had 1 year full time use in our 1999 much of the tile grout and even a few tiles are having problems. It's hard to say what the source of the issue is and if I should replace any subflooring or not. In places where the subflooring is exposed it seems rather solid so I think the tile just can't handle the wood flex.
Anyway, that doesn't matter. The point of the conversation was to note just how much tile was in all of these new coaches. It was a TON. All over the floors, up the walls, even ceilings of some. Entire shower was tile. CRAZY amounts of tile in all brands. I can't imagine what that will look like after the coach flexes a bit.
What was the price tag on that bad boy? A quick look on the Newell website shows prices ranging from 1.7-1.9M American dollars.
The newell was 1.8M, a few of the Millenium Prevosts were around 2.2M. The American Eagle was $650,000. Foretravel has a LOT of competition in that coach. They went all out. I didn't pick it apart, but shopped as a normal uneducated person would. How nice does it "feel"? Same with the Allegro BUS of 2015. They "feel" like exceptionally nice coaches. Who knows what it's like to drive, own or crash them, but they "feel" nice.
Not to mention weight
Absurd idea to put unreinforced masonry (tile) in a coach. Unless you pour a reinforced concrete subfloor first, which I suppose somebody is thinking about. Flame suit on, but anything is better than talking about that other thing.
If only there was an updated Grand Villa made. I remember seeing a blue one that was custom made in 2002 (?) on here. Looked great.
Keith, the blue GV you refer to was the last GV built, it was built for Pat Martinez as a 2003 GV 295 no slide 36ft., it was sold by MOT after Pat's passing.
I think I have this correct, but I could be wrong, I only saw the coach once at Pats home in Inverness,Fl in the garage.
[/quote]
I have an upgraded Grand Villa, and it's for sale! :-)
I have the scrapped knuckles to prove it's upgraded! 1990 U280, 36', 3208T Cat, 4 speed Allison. The ice maker even works. Fully renovated interior etc. I love that coach, but now have a 1996 U320 40', and nobody needs two! The U280 is reasonably priced, always under cover and has maintenance records. Maintained by Foretravel for the last two years. Located in Houston, Tx.
Since the topic has been stretched from it OP, I figured I would chime in... As a newer FT owner and a future FT buyer hopefully for many years to come ( I am 43 ). I have no issues with the factory on support. They were great with making body panels after an incident last year on my 25 year old coach. The factory rep (I forgot his name) told my body shop they wanted to make sure it was done correctly. What other company does that for a 25 year old coach?! NONE. So as one of those "older coach owners" I have never once bashed or wished Foretravel any ill will and hope the Realm sells well for them. This site has been great for ALL views pro and con! I say keep the pro and con coming!! It is always nice to hear another side we don't have to agree... just listen.
As for the Realm....I look at it this way. Foretravel is a great name but IF the Realm does not live up to the Foretravel name then all other Foretravels will become viewed in the same light, right or wrong it will happen. If the company wants to stretch its market share IMHO they should put the same in-house Foretravel build quality into a smaller 36-40 foot coach. I am basis and would love to see a Grand Villa but whatever the market demands will will out. The smaller coaches should have the option of slide or no-slide coaches too in order to expand that market share. I just get very weary when companies that are KNOWN for certain things and for lack of a better term sub-contract out some of the work that has made a company what it is.
Happy Trails!!!
Like you, I have found the service and parts availabity from Foretravel for my 1990 U280 to be astounding. To date I have not been told "we don't have that" when I needed parts for that coach, and they know the systems and can repair quickly when you need it. This is probably due to having built large quantities of the Grand Villa ORED and Unihome coaches. I have had more trouble getting parts for my 96' U320 than the older coach.
Like you, I think there would be a market for an updated Grand Villa--- there is a near cult following for these old coaches and I think a new "retro" unit would sell like hot cakes.
I find the factory to be responsive and anxious to please no matter how old your coach is when you pull in the bay for service.
Bill, The name Martinez brings back memories. The 85 ORED that I owned was once owned by him. I found papers in it with his name on it. I bought it from another owner and I have no idea who had it after he traded it in. This ORED was the one I totaled. This was years ago but its funny how things go around over time.
Gary B
The Foretravel name is virtually unknown up here in Wisconsin. Almost every single CG we have been at here in the state people have come up to us and asked what it was, how old it was, where it came from, etc, etc. One couple told us they were so enamored with the looks & style that they went back to their camper and looked up Foretravel on the internet. My buddy was parked next to us with his much newer SOB coach and the couple walked right by him & his coach.
The DW and I feel we are Foretravel ambassadors here in Wisconsin and make every effort to "sell" Foretravel up here.
Two comments we always get are the quality of the coach and the GV prow up front. The comment comes just before (from class A owners) how it must "cut the wind" and get better mileage.
Nitehawk, I was always impressed when folks in CG's and other places asked " what is it " about my GV, have been told that it looked like a LOCOMOTIVE, many times asked how old it was and then expressed surprise that it was 15-16 years old. Never met anyone that was not impressed with the solid walnut woodwork back as far as the eighties. Wish I could, but I can't have another FT, those were good days.
Gary B
Gary, I fully know what you mean by the reaction when told how old the coach is. Their eyes open wide and then they exclaim how the quality shows because the coach is so much older than they thought---and ours is going on 26 years old!! (1989)
When you get right down to it, we, the owners of Foretravel coaches are the best sales people that Foretravel has---- once you own one you just don't want an SOB.
I have sold three other Foretravels when people came and looked at our old U280 because they didn't know what it was---- they went away so impressed that they looked at and bought only Foretravel after that. Two of those folks bought 42' tag axle U320's and the other a 40' no slide U320. Once they saw the quality of the 24 year old coach, they were sold.
You are not the only one who has done that. I know I have sold a number of coaches after showing my coach and talking to the people. Mine is a bit newer then yours but the same quality. I think we FT owners are the best sales people they have. That is one of the things you see at a Motorcade Rally. We all park in a line and then we watch the people come up and look. We had a steady stream one time when we had 22 coaches in a campground near the beach. It was fun and people would come up and say I have always dreamed of getting a FT and now look. There are lots of them to look at.
Another perspective on this topic... Yesterday, another 97 Eagle owner / long-time friend and I rode up to Motorhome Specialists RV in Alvarado, Texas specifically to check out the Realm. They had two Realms, one of each floor plan. What immediately caught our attention upon walking up to the first unit was severe orange peel. It was truly shocking and very hard to believe the unit had been allowed to leave Nacogdoches. Please know this is not bashing or exaggeration, but very sadly, fact. We both found the interior of both Realms to be the best of all other units we toured which included Thor, Entegra, Monaco, plus American Coach and Newmar (located next door at Ancira RV). The second Realm had a better paint job, yet it was far from spectacular in quality although the design of both was excellent. On a scale of one to ten, it would be a five. In our opinion, the first unit was not even on the scale. It would have to have been stamped "rejected". Cannot imagine anyone buying it without a full paint re-do being in the sales contract. Other than the IH models also there at MHSRV, no other interior compared to that of the Realm as both Realm interiors, in our humble opinions, were outstanding in material and craftsmanship.
"In our opinion, the first unit was not even on the scale."
I simply cannot comprehend that. We're not talking about a Kia or Hyundai (which have actually achieved remarkable quality) selling for $20K! I have not seen serious orange peel of automotive finishes in the last several years. If that is what the painters are putting out, from the factory paint and body shop, I'm glad I going to Xtreme instead for repairs. Maybe there are youngins spraying now, who were not around when James Stallings set up the factory paint shop.
I was truly beyond our comprehension too... It was one of those "am I seeing what I think I am seeing" moments. It was hard to believe as it was FAR from insignificant and FAR from not noticeable. I have read where at least a few folks here have had their coach re-painted at Foretravel with no such comments. Something REALLY changed at least on that one. I am surprised the dealer, who states they own every unit out-right on their lot, would have paid for it / accepted it in its current condition.
When I started this thread I saw this coach at the Tampa show, and the exterior paint showed up right away. The exterior finish was not what I expected from Foretravel. You can't park this coach by the competition and expect people not to compare. The interior cabinet finish did not impress me either. My 95 has better finish inside and out. If you are not familiar with the brand and you see the exterior of poor quality then you will assume the things you can't see will be the same. Hopefully Foretravel will get it right.
"If you are not familiar with the brand and you see the exterior of poor quality then you will assume the things you can't see will be the same." Exactly.
The other way around isn't necessarily true, either, but there is a better chance that what you can't see will be of at least decent quality if what you can see is good.