I have a 95 U240 Cat 3116 with 130K miles. I have noticed increased oil consumption lately. I have no leaks period. So I checked it on the last trip. Running on I-10 at 60-68MPH towing, it used 3 almost 4 qts. in 510 miles. On the check before that one I think it used 4 qts in 687 miles. I have checked the blow by pipe to see if air is coming out of the engine, at 700 rpm very little, at 1350(high idle) very little/almost none. This test was on a cool engine running for about 10 minutes. I have also removed the air inlet to the turbo and I pushed and pulled on the impeller nut, there is some play up and down, less side to side play, there is no play in and out. I have no exhaust smoke any time of any color. Where is the oil going? how do find the problem? Is the turbo pumping the oil somewhere? Can the turbo be repaired or must it be replaced? where do you get a turbo??
Thanks
Pat,
Pat,
Couple of things:
To check for a bad seal in the turbo, pull off the boot from turbo to crossover pipe to CAC and check for oil there. Be gentle with boot.
Have you calibrated your engine oil dipstick? I also though I had an oil consumption issue on a 3116. After calibrating the engine oil dipstick, I found the full mark was 2+ quarts high. I was OVERfilling, the engine was puking it out and I would again overfill.
After calibration, no oil consumption issues again.
You can verify your correct oil capacity by calling the Caterpillar RV Hotline at 877 777-3126 with your engine serial number. Likely to be 21 quarts including oil filter.
Hi Wolfe10,
I always fill the engine at oil change time with 19 qts. so as to find the add mark., then add 2 more qts.
My full mark is the add mark on the dip stick.
I will try to look at the pipe you mention.
Thanks
Pat,
I'd suggest you run a few qts. low to see if it reduces/slows using oil "if" you cannot find issues with the turbocharger.
Have you had this issue for a while or is it something new? pc
Has the engine ever been overheated? If so, I would look at valve seals.
Diesel engines can burn large quantities of lube oil without smoking. Like Brett said, check turbo for seal leak--- common cause of oil consumption on all diesels, regardless of brand.
I have owned the MH for 8 yrs now. I have put 50K miles on it. I have always put some oil in it. I do think it has increased from about 2 qts per tank or 700-900 miles to now about 6-8 qts per tank or 700-900 miles. I change the oil at 6000 miles. I have not really paid a lot of attention to the oil consumption until I noticed I was really low a few times. I have got it hot enough for the high temp alert to sound once, but it cooled down at idle real quick. I have ran it at 203-205 deg. for hours in hot weather. I would say that I have noticed the increase for about the last 10k miles.
Pat,
Today I removed the turbo output piping both at the turbo and at the inter-cooler. I found the inter-cooler to be clean and dry( no oil). I also found the output at the turbo to be clean and dry(no oil). The exhaust side of the turbo is so (20+yrs) rusty that I could not easily remove the exhaust pipe to inspect it. Still no smoke of any type today when starting or high idle. No/very little blow by at crank case ventilation pipe. No oily substances in blow by pipe. Sum up and down movement in turbo shaft, no in and out slack. I will double check for leaks, but I know there are none. any ideas or help appreciated
Pat,
Don't know that I have any "secret formula", but the basics are:
Per Caterpillar, do not add oil until the oil level is at the (calibrated) add mark.
Assume you are using a 15-40 oil speced for diesels.
Assume the engine is not running how-- hot engine=thinner oil.
Frankly, were it mine, it would have to get a LOT worse before I would tear into the engine itself, particularly if it is running well and not suffering any big drop in MPG.
Turbo chargers will coverup lots of problems fwiw.
You could smoke (test) each cylinder to verify their condition but if you aren't in a position to correct the issue,
I'm for leaving things alone and enjoy the ride until it gets to the point of needing repair
(which could be a long time into the future.) pc
I would search other CAT forums for like symptoms. A turbo seal going bad will cause elevated EGT. Once they go really bad, they melt pistons. Probably not your case but if the crankcase is filled to the correct level and it still is using oil, I would find the reason right away.
Pierce
A few thoughts;
Ever used either to start it ? Is it hard starting ? using either can cause the rings to become very weak,
If after going down a good hill, when you add power at bottom of hill, do you have a puff of blue smoke from exhaust, that would indicate valve seals
If glazed cylinder walls, it will not leak, nor show blue haze from exhaust, but sure can burn a lot of oil.
Many possibilities, with the mileage, rings could be worn out or just leaking oil.
Dave M
I had a 3116 customer who replaced several pistons in his. Twice. Low miles.
Even he was surprised
And, what was the cause-- particularly with repeat failures???
steve and mary light were the owners. he was very mechanical and if memory serves me he had to in the frame bore two cylinders as their was bore problems. two separate incidents. oil consumption was the first issue. loss of power later?
this is 20 years ago.
not sure if the lights are still around? so cal folks then
What's your coolant look like? Hopefully not milky.
wolfe10: I only add oil when it is at least 2 qts. below the "ADD mark", the "ADD mark" is my full mark. I do all my oil changes, I put in 19 qts, then check, it is always below the "ADD mark", then I add the last 2 qts, then check and its on the "ADD mark". I use Delo 400 LE. During the last trip then engine temp was steady at 181(thermostat temp).
Pierce: Thanks for the thought about the CAT forums. I agree with you about the source of the oil consumption. I may not want to do any thing about it, but I should know what is causing the consumption.
Dave: I never use anything to start, it is very easy to start. I never see any smoke(black or blue) during driving or starting.
Can a bad turbo suck the engine oil and blow it into the exhaust with out it going thru the engine?
Pat,
Hi Dan,
I did not see your post until I had already post the above. I have not checked the coolent, but I will. Are you thinking blown head gasket?
Pat,
If a seal is bad on the exhaust side of the turbo, yes, oil could go into the exhaust without going through the engine.
the more I remember steves comments it was the cylinders were out of round
I checked the coolent and found it to be in good condition, level was good. I spoke to a mechanic today and he think injectors. He says no way to know if it is other than changing them.
Pat,
Find a good shop.
Throwing parts at an unknown issue is a total waste.
BTW, is your engine breather routed to your intercooler (like a marine application)
or routed to atmosphere?
Also; is this 3116 designated to use only CAT 30 or 40 single weight oil? pc
You do have to take then out but any good injector shop can test them and sometimes repair.
On the Caterpillar 3116, crankcase breather is routed to atmosphere-- same as all OTR diesels until EPA compliance in the 2004 time range called for closed systems.
15-40 oil is the recommended viscosity for that engine unless temperatures are extreme.
Well today a diesel repair shop looked at the problem, they confirmed that blow by is at reasonable levels(not the problem), the air compressor is not pumping the oil out(not the problem), and there are no oil leaks. I noticed this morning when I started, it did smoke(blue oil) a little and it was not cold start smoke. No blow by tells me the rings and cylinders are ok. I also know the cold side of the turbo is clean and dry(not the problem). I think that only leaves value stem seals and/or injectors??? Any Ideas??
Pat,
I hope you find an easy solution. been going over my dim memory of what steve light who had a sister coach had issues with. best of my memory was the cylinders may be close together or siamezed and the heat caused the cylinders to ovalize and the oil control ring lost tension.
I hope my memory is faulty but I think I remember he had to had two sleeves installed in frame. one per repair twice..
he was not happy as his maintenance was fanatical.
like I said I hope its something else but you shop feedback sounds like his story. finally tore it down and measured things.
3126 had soft blocks not the 3116 supposedly. wish my memory said it was something easy. he had good power just high oil use as you mentioned.
if the injectors leak with the ULSD fuel my understanding is the diesel fuel washes the oil off the cylinder wall and the rings sealing is affected.
diesel fuel is 2 weight oil. not good for lube.
wish steve and mary light. anyone have an old motorcade book from 20 years ago as if his is still around the planet maybe his contact info is good?
Cat is not alone with history of softer blocks, John Deere also has history. Of course my Cat experience was with the earlier 30+ yr ago series which mostly were great engines with the low end 3200 series being the big issue. John Deere had a run of soft blocks too. Crazy stuff, Cummins has had issues with the smaller V style engines, while the inline does very well. DDC seems to be alone with great history with no bad 2 stroke iron blocks, some of the aluminum blocks had a hard life.
I worked Cat for a couple years, more than 30 yrs ago, enjoyed their schools, perks & was great as a time card puncher, but I would never purchase a Cat anything beyond tools.
Good Morning All,
I hate to beat a dog soooooo hard, but I took the blue angle to Holt CAT Truck Service in Longview, TX yesterday asking what is causing my excessive oil consumption? By the way the oil consumption is now at 1 Qt. per 100-150 miles. They inspected everything they could. They worked for 3 hours. They checked for oil leaks, bad turbo, clean fuel at the filter, both air tanks for oil in tank, blow-by was found to be OK, removed value cover and re-torqued intake bolts. They said they could not find the cause and the only way they could do more would be to take it apart. I am happy with there service, but what do I do now??
Go to a forum that specializes in CATs. Brett will be able to suggest several. Seems unusual for that much consumption.
Pierce
This reminds me of my angst at trying to find the leak in my pool. The guy who I selected to do the repair said "start by not filling it back up".
See if it stabilizes before the bottom of the 'ADD' section. You might just need to recalibrate your dipstick.
Sorry, wish I could offer something further. My only suggestion is to VERIFY that the engine oil dipstick is CALIBRATED.
I know the dipstick on our 1993 U240 (same engine) was NOT. Filling to the original full mark caused the crankcase to be overfilled. And it "puked" out the crankcase breather until the "real" full level was reached. If you continued to fill to the overfill mark, it would certainly appear to be using oil.
While I guess any engine family can become an oil consumer, that series of Cat engines was never known for oil consumption.
I know this is grasping at straws but has the air compressor been checked to see if it has a broken ring. If so it could be pumping oil out backwards when the compressor is unloaded into the air plenum going to the engine, if that is where the compressor is getting filtered air from. It seems like if a ring was broken you would be getting excessive oil out the dryer purge and in the wet tank. Does yours have the York air compressor?
Pamela & Mike
It could also be a broken oil ring in the engine--- a quart per 100 miles is extreme. How many miles does the engine have? Do you have excessive smoke? What color smoke?
I have seen a Cummins 5.9 350 hp marine engine with this kind of oil consumption due to cylinder glazing. The cause was discovered by using a bore scope camera through the injector mounting bore without dismantling the engine.
Brett's suggestion seems simple enough but if you had another shop do the oil change, they may keep overfilling during changes. When changing oil, find the correct amount of oil for your engine including the amount for the filter. Fill with amount CAT recommends, start engine, turn off and check against the full mark stamped on the dip stick after a few minutes.
Check crankcase internal pressure with a manometer. Expect somewhere around 7 to 11 Hg but may be different for your engine.
Any oil ever on the ground?
What does shop say about valve seals? Any blue smoke on downgrades?
How fast does it start? Smoke? Any changes in engine behavior as the problem occurred? Overheating? Accidentally exceeding engine rpm redline on downgrades?
Check with CAT to see if they recommend going to a straight viscosity SAE 40 in extreme cases.
You probably don't have a EGT gauge/probe but checking will catch high temps from a bad turbo seal.
Read other forums for others with same problem and solutions they found.
Overhaul will be very expensive so would do a lot of research before going that route.
Pierce
Could be a simple case of being "Dusted", maybe he is using the K&N air strainer, they sure will Dust your baby, sure would not be the first.
Dave make a good point I had totally forgotten. Using K&N filters is like slowly emptying a can of Ajax into your engine's air intake. Diesel pushers are much more susceptible than front engined coaches.
Pierce
Good Morning All,
Thanks for all the comments and ideas.
First if the oil was getting out of the engine in someway other than the exhaust, it would leave a very black oily trail. There is no leaking/spotting under the motor, there is no stuff/trace on the rear of motorhome, also none on the tow car, there is no oil in either air tank. This was confermed by Holt CAT.
Second the other way out is thru the exhaust pipe, the engine does not smoke black or blue any time, the turbo intercooler is clean and piping, the exhaust manifold gasket area shows signs of slight value guide wear(thin film of oil around gasket ), cracked/broken rings would show up as excessive blow-by and my blow-by is OK/normal, bad injectors will show up as black fuel(oil in fuel) at the filter, my fuel at the filter is clear and clean, the value area of motor is also part of the intake manifold and has a gasket that could be leaking, that was re-torqued and found to be OK. This was confermed by Holt CAT.
The dip stick is not the problem, everytime I change my oil(6000 miles) and I always do the work, I fill with 19 qts, start and this becomes my add mark(it is the word add) then add the final 2 qts to make total of 21 qts. This is the full mark and on my stick it is the add mark line.
Pierce:
The engine runs good, start easy, gets 10 MPG at 60MPH towing, I have had a heating problem that was addressed by replacing the hydraulic fans, sun controller, fan motors. Still wants to heat up going up hills and cools going down. Temps go up from 181 as outside temp rises. I do run Delo 400 LE 15w-40w, the stuff you find in all the truck stops.
A broken / worn oil ring will usually not cause excessive blow by---- worn or broken compression rings will. An history of engine heating problems could point toward the oil rings loosing temper due to high heat and not doing a proper job of "scraping" excess oil off the cylinder wall on piston down stroke. This oil can make it's way into the combustion chamber past the compression rings which are designed not to scrape oil on the piston down stroke (that is how they are lubricated). Any diesel is designed to burn oil (since that is what diesel fuel is, light oil) and will very effectively burn lube oil, so unless there is a huge amount of oil getting into the combustion chamber the engine simply burns it like fuel and may not create huge amounts of smoke that you would notice.
Has your fuel mileage gone up as your oil consumption has? It would be very slight, but might help you trouble this hairy problem.
My customer had two separate cylinder repairs done. In frame overbore. 80k and 100k miles.
Pat,
As Dave M brought up, what kind of air filter do you have installed? Didn't see in your above reply. Have you checked all the intake air connections to make sure no dirt is entering the engine? Has it been replaced? Restricted air filter can cause high EGT especially at high altitude. On the other hand, an intake leak allowing or incorrect filter allowing dust/dirt in can dust the engine as Dave points out.
Heating. How bad was the heating that you replaced the fan and motors? Did it ever boil over to the point you had to add coolant? Do you still heat in mild temperatures on hills? How much of a hill does it take to bring the temp off the thermostat in 70-80F ambient? Do you ever come off the thermostat on level ground? What was the maximum temp you reached before you replaced the fans/motors? Did replacing help any?
Worn valve guide seals may use oil without telltale smoke out the back. Oil is just burned with the diesel. They can harden with age and lose their effectiveness. I have replaced on a couple of engines without removing the cylinder head but is dependent on ease of valve spring removal.
Have you had a radiator shop check for products of combustion in the coolant tank?
I had a Mercedes van that used LOTS of oil without any outward sign. Started fine, no smoke, good mileage. Tried lots of remedies to no avail. When I pulled the engine, I could not see anything amiss with rings etc. New liners and pistons cured it. As above post notes, rings that have lost their temper or ring land wear may allow rings to no longer seal properly.
Pierce
The engine air filter is standard FOT. I have changed and cleaned filter many times.
The heating problems was it running above what I had been use to in the past. The fans still run about 600-700 RPM slow. The fan motors, pump and sun controller replacement had no effect on fan speed.
It has never boiled over, but once it did reach 240-250 when high temp light and buzzer came on. I stopped and it cooled down soon. Now at 85 ambient running 60MPH to/from Longview,TX from Lufkin,TX temp will run about 185-190. Any up hill, temp will rise and level/down will cool. This is towing too. All hydraulic system part replacement was done at the end of last summer. I don't have any real summer driving conditions/temps yet. I am going from Lufkin,Tx to Las Vegas,NV in Aug 22, 2015. I bet that will test it a little. I have made the trip several times in the past.
The engine coolant has been changed/flushed and was clear and clean. I change the filter yearly myself.
I wonder; if looking thru a removed injector hole with a video cam is worth($$$) trying??
lost and puzzled, this does not add up!!!
It all adds up IF you have glazed cylinder walls, it would act exactly as you describe, the fix is cheap, safe and fairly quick.
We have the issue with both diesel and gasoline engines that are not run very hard. Had a 7.3 Navistar that burnt 1 qt per 400-500 miles until I fixed it, then ran it till 414,000 miles, sold it, new owner is still laughing at me.
Know a few red neck mechanics who have used those methods, some with some success and some with poor luck.
The method that works for the rest of us is to use the break in oil, the reason for break in oil is to seat the rings ONLY.
Know we do not hear much about the old break in oil like we used to, but it still works, have used it on many engines, even a 6V-92 that just would not quit using oil.
It is not a big mystrey, break in oil is simply Non Detergent oil, so change oil to a straight weight SAE30 and run until it stops burning oil. Might take 1,000 miles or maybe 5,000 miles, but it will seat the rings, THEN go back to your good oil.
I do not expect all the experts to understand what I just printed, but it is very true, have helped some on this forum already solve their mystrey oil loss.
Should have mentioned that Cat has had issues with oil usage, have seen some 3208 engines that were built with two rings, meaning one compression and one oil control ring, they had a big problem wet stacking / slobbering, you could load bank them for 2 hours at 100% load, they would clean up and run great for about five hours, then with little load they were back to the same mess.
Cat was a great place to work, been to Peoria, IL. many times for schooling, but still would not own one.
Ya, the 3208 was a completely different engine, particularly the early two ring version of the 3208.
Pat,
One thing you said that really concerns me is that you "cleaned the air filter many times".
It is very easy to damage the paper element / air filter, particularly if you bang it to remove dirt. And, the more times it is removed, the more the chance that the seals at the filter ends will be damaged or misaligned. A broken pleat or seal will surely "dust" and engine.
Another symptom of this is that the air filter minder will always read "no restriction", as the open pleat or seal creates a direct path for air (and, of course dirt) to reach the engine.
Find a good tech first with a bore scope and an easy to get to cylinder.
The non-detergent oil idea will be great if you find a glazed cylinder wall.
FWIW, I've never seen just a single glazed cylinder.
If you get this far without finding the problem, start smoking (at the back of the motor 1st)
cylinders, looking for a worn exhaust valve guide.
A decent shop should be able to diagnose your issue.
Edit:
Cat did have a couple of issues with this and the 3126 series.
The blocks were made in France and a number of them did have cylinder issues due to the incorrect casting issues (metallurgy.)
If excessive wear is indicated at the top of the cylinder, the only fix will be an in-frame to replace the liners and ring-set.
Also,
TRW was the vendor for valves and there were reports of issues. pc
No liners in the 3116. You have to install salvage sleeves if there is enough room above the block to mount the boring bar. CAT does not make oversized pistons. Aftermarket may be available at .020 but wear may be more than that. Machine shop will need a torque plate to bolt down before boring for the sleeves or it will use oil.
Pierce
Buying oversized piston's,
I said nothing about buying oversized pistons..
We can bench race this and guess what's wrong forever.
Good luck. pc
Just a general comment toward the subject engine and possibilities. Now, it you want my opinion :)
Pierce
I agree with Brett Wolfe ,on one motocade, 3 engines "got dusted". Owner failed air cleaner maintaince. Required in frame overhauls.
Oh NO, all this sounds like a lot of money. How do you get the injector out after the value cover is off?
Using a scope to look in the cylinder, what does a glazed cylinder look like? How much blow-by does a dusted engine have?
Hi,
I'm a newbie greenhorn regarding the Foretravel, And in the process of find a U240, however two things crossed my mind that you may want to try before a lot of expense.
1. Check your oil pressure, a high volume of oil will give a high oil pressure reading on the gauge and low pressure for insufficient oil. This is not a 100% method of accuracy but is a very good indicator as to level and a possible leak.
2. I had a Gulf Stream MH with a Cumin's 5.9 Diesel, After adding oil regularly (Rotella) I was told I had a couple of oil seals leaking. There was no smoke and no visible sign of a leak to me, but loss of oil was a fact. A problem I was quoted $2500 to fix, which meant dropping the engine. After many hours of research I hit on the idea of adding a sealer to swell the seals back to original size. I spent $100 on a sealer I have just completed a 3000mile trip up the California and Oregon coast and back .. Hey presto no oil was used throughout the trip.
This is the company I deal with and can only say good things about them and their product, Although the title refers to Head Gaskets it covers all leaks.
PermaTech - Fast and Easy 2-Part Head Gasket Repair Sealer- Oil Stop-Leak..
PermaTech - Fast and Easy 2-Part Head Gasket Repair Sealer- Oil Stop-Leak... (http://www.oilstopleak.com)