( John H. ) here and need some ideas what to do. I just turned off I 10 to go see Brad and my throttle quit. Engine runs but I cannot increase revs with throttle. I put it in cruise and that increases revs but do not have any control with pedal.Any ideas I am stuckon side of road a mile from Brad on 60 at Brenda.
Hope you can help me now??
John H ------ - John is away from his coach and I am trying to help Brad Metzger------
Brad,
Start by checking electric connection at your "gas" pedal. Most likely problem with your electronic setup. Unplug and reconnect.
John, We had similar problem with our throttle linkage at the engine broke. We moved by putting a rope on the injector lever, pulling up to increase RPM with a 2-way radio to the driver, doing this for about an hour up and down hills, etc. Then made a new linkage bracket with a piece of aluminum we carried.
Also has a low power situation that kept us running under 10 MPH when our fuel shutoff did not fully open. It opened enough to start and get low RPM.
electronic motor on a 2010. fly by wire
Bob - you missed that it's John Haygarth using Brad's ID to post.
John's coach is a 2000 U295 with a Cummins 350
good. mechanical throttle on a 2000? says a 295 has an electronic motor
John,
Lots of mechanical linkage and King Throttle/Cruise Control advice, but:
Not much help, as you already know, I'm sure, 1999 turned all of the 8.3's to electronic ECM throttle set up. The only mechanical linkage is at the throttle pedal base.
I like Brett's suggestion and any ECM cable connections that you can get to and "wiggle."
Neal
John H,
Suggest every electric connector, disconnect, spray electronic cleaner on both sides, reconnect. Please don't laugh, that is exactly how we fix many
goofy/strange issues on computer/electronc engines & controls.
Dave M
John and myself are both broke down in the same area . I am in a CG , he is a mile south on US_60 toward I-10 . He is in a safe and good spot and can stay there till his problem is solved or towed . The guy at Foretravel emergency number could not help . Now has a check engine light showing . Lots of "expert suggestions " so far nothing . John has several towing services , so he is not stranded as such . Brad Metzger
How about the throttle position sensor.
Can you get an error code from the check engine light?
+1
If the 2000 is similar to newer coaches, there will be a switch under the dash Cummins ISM Engine Codes - Pre 2002 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/cummins_ism_engine_codes-pre_2002.html)
John,
Did you open the diagnostics window on your VMSPC? Sometimes the error codes aren't very descriptive, but the numbers can be searched on the web and provide some ideas. I have seen the codes be quite specific though, spelling out the system affected such as a lift pump failure.
We are glad at least you made it to a warm climate before this happened!
Don & Tys
ok we are now in the group site in Q and for some reason I got no codes on silverleaf but Dave K is going to look at it all this afternoon. I did not sleep good last night as mind was working hard. Did some more checking this am and took primary fuel filter off but fuel was clean. Put it back and pumped it up, tried starting and every thing works fine?????? Threw everything inside and took off here. Still do not know what caused it but as Brad bought me a new lift pump from Dave I am going to see if I can find someone that can install it as no way I can get in there with bad back.
Thanks for thoughts. We may be going to Mexico with fingers crossed as we do have to go there.
JohnH
John, have you thought of disconnecting the stinger control.
yes had thought of that but like the boost, maybe I will but all seems to be ok. Dave K just checked for faults and cummind blink codes did not show any. The silverleaf did and to do with Acc pedal calibration error and next one the same but high voltage. I have sent email to martin to see if he can tell me what the things mean as do not go in line with Cummins. It did not show any fuel problems so that is good.
JohnH
have been pulling things apart and resetting as there was lots of snow and rain on road on trip to PHX . will do more in morning and check ground cables to frame and engine.
Thanks all for suggestions and I make an apology to FT as their emerg line did contact me Sunday but after a few calls said they did not know-sorry. At least they called but wonder if James T would have an idea and maybe email me???
Well we left Q and broke down again on I 10 about 3 miles out of Q. 4 hrs later got loaded on a tow truck flat bed for the 100 mile drive back to PHX and Cummins place. I figure it is not pedal problem but temp sensor for coolant or level sensor as once coah was loaded the thing reverted back to normal so temps had cooled down and allowed throttle to work ok. So again if James T is reading this would you please possibly agree with my thought and if so should I just remove the wiring going to level sensor and all will be ok till I get it replaced. check engine light will be on I guess? Life is so fun. Hope is all ok with you Brad.
Johna and Ruth ( somewere along the I 10 now and again)
Johnh
edit, guy busted some body work at back and the flap is all bent trying to get it up the ramp. Just charged me $250 instead of 500 extra for tow and so I have another little project to do in Mexico when I get there (if)
Gee wiz John , are trying to steal my thunder ? Maybe ----we both need to go to FOT and trade in our broke units . At the rate your going you won't need a dentist , all your teeth will have fallen out . If this mechanic can't do this job , I might have to sell the tires off this unit and buy a plane ticket just to get home . Brad Metzger
John safe in San Carlos
See you soon Dave and Fran
John
I hope you get good results at Cummins. FYI- you can join their Cummins Power Club and you will get 10% off the bill.
I did that at Cummins in Ohio last summer and it more than paid for the membership in what I saved. Ask them about it before you pay- I hope it will save you some $$$$$.
Hope you and Ruth get to Mexico with a good running coach.
Ted
Brad-
You will get out of there one of these days- hopefully soon and in good running order.
At least you are not broken down on the side of the road.
Cya again down the road.
Ted
Dave and Fran glad you made it, we are still at Cummins Rocky mtn in Avondale PHX (since sat night) after having coach ride on flat bed all way. The guy busted some fibreglass and bent back door and bent mud flap so he cut the excess charge in half!!!. We have an appt at 10 in morning and I think I have figured problem out as the coolant sensors because it runs as should once engine fluids are cold!!
We will see, and I am getting them to replace the fuel lift pump that Brad brought from Dave for me as no way can I get in there. Hope to be headind south to border by late afternoon, but nothing is a rush here in this place. 7 coaches here plus commercial trucks.
We will let you know what happens, it's only money but we are missing Brads ATV now and all this wasted time could be used up with riding.
JohnH
Still sitting here waiting for tech to fix. He said it is an Idle control sensor and he is checking wiring harness, but who knows how long that will be, just have to relax I guess?
JohnH
Are you able to observe the process? I hate it when I can't at least watch!
Don
well we got in at 9am and out at 3pm and they said all was well now. Hook the car up and drive down the I 10 10 miles and the same thing again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Call the shop and give them a tough time. They call a tow and 2 show up and hook us up and pull the axle loosing a gal of oil. traffic is crazy and no one wants to let us back on freeway. Get back to shop and I tell them that we are in again at 6 30 ama as I am fit to be tied. # breakdowns in a week is a bit much even for a mild mannered Canadian. The saga continues. Ruth now wants to just go home and forget the holiday/Dentist in mexico???
Will get back to you. Oh yes we are now at 1k Dollars and in same boat as a week ago.
JohnH
John,
We are totally bummed out that you are going through this aggravation! I sure hope the second look by Cummins provides the definitive answer. 1K$ for the wrong answers does not compute!!! But glad you guys are safe...
Don & Tys
Hope they figure it out this time. I had a problem on my 2000 that was hard to figure out. Every time I turned on my dash AC it would stall the M11. They used the same breaker for the ECM as they used for the condenser fan. Go figure. Hope they get you fixed up this time.
John
Sorry to hear about the troubles- at least you and Ruth are safe!!
There is an old saying that bad things happen in 3's- you should be close to the end now.
Best wishes for getting it resolved quickly with a couple of $$ still in your pocket.
Ted
I empathize with you and hope that they at Cummins get it right this time. I have experienced being broke down not knowing what to do or who to call. It is a very empty feeling.
Low and behold==== just got a phone call from John . He paid another $1,400.00 for an ECM unit , all happy , mechanics smiling and waving as he drove off . He got on HWY # 19 got all the way to exit 92 , broke down again . He is sitting on the side of the road waiting for a wrecker to tow him back to Rocky Mtn. Cummins . He has had it . Said if and when they ever get it fixed , he is going home . Very disgusted is an understatement . To say the least , ( I hurt for him ) Brad Metzger
Wow, that is incredible. I hope they figure out what it is without throwing more parts at it. IF I was there, I would just drive it around the building for about 20 miles.
Sure do not know what's wrong , but seams to me it might just be a loose wire , broken wire , some module , or something in this think area . I am aware that if what is wrong doesn't show up when in the shop hooked up to the computer , this can keep going on and on . Something simple is not showing up . John has put a pile of cash into it and ends up with the exact problem . Might it be the temp sender ?? or maybe the loose wire or connection to it ??? Why does it fail when he gets it on the road and gets the temp up to working range and then crap out ??? Got to stick to riding toys . Brad Metzger
OMG, how sad ! AND the frosting on the cake will be when they find some $.19 connector broken.
John's brother Geoff here,
Hi Brad and all the Foretravel followers of John's current experience,
I have just put the phone down after talking to him again. He is still waiting for the Tow truck ( 8pm his time ).
This afternoon he told me ( and Brad ) that he will head home ( probably straight to the pit! ) after the Cummings people find what the problem has been. He called his friend Marcel in San Carlos to let him know he will not be going to Mexico and Marcel told him not to cancel his trip but get it towed back to the Cummings Shop, leave it with them, drive to Mexico in the car and tell Cummings to fix it once and for all. At this time I think this is the direction he will take, but after he talks to the Management tomorrow this could change, what he does know is that he really appreciates everyone's ideas, thoughts and comments. I have been in touch with him every day and he is still upbeat but very frustrated.
I am sure he will let us know more when he gets to that reception desk tomorrow, who knows there may be more noise in that room than on Super bowl Sunday! ( the shop is not far from the Stadium ).
Geoffh
Words fail me :o ... You are currently living one of my worst nightmares; you put trust in the professionals who are equipped to do the job and they just throw parts at it. That does it. I am going to find one of these diagnostic devices and the appropriate software so that I can be the one who changes the wrong parts, and then I will pay myself a $110 an hour for screwing up! >:D
Don
Typing off the top of my head - about something that I don't know much about....but
Could John's problem have something to do with the Banks Stinger system. I think those use a tuner. If something is wrong with that electronic module, it could be confusing the Cummins mechanics.
Just a thought.
Doubtful, but would be easy to check as Banks system wiring can be easily converted to original configuration.
Roland
Is the coach permanently disabled once it quits?
It won't work after all cools down and rests for a while?
When this type of problem hits someone with Johns experience and creative abilities it shows electronic or electrical breakdowns can happen to anyone. I''m sure John will get it figured out and this will all be a bad memory that will become the topic of many campfire conversations. Memories of all pain diminishes with time.
John and Ruth, you will get through this and everything will be alright. Do you want us to come and get you for the weekend??? We're in Tucson and have a comfortable couch including big white fluffy dog.
Well I am back on the air again to let any interested in our saga know we are ok but coachless right now!!
We left it in Phx for a month and decided to drive car down here to San Carlos mexico and be with friends here before heading further south for Dentist.
We have had some very scary moments on I 10 this last week or so and 4 breakdowns and 3 tows. We now know all the tow companies and they are great people. Anyone needing a tow in that area must call Alternate towing in Phx as these guys have the best flat decks system I have ever seen ( and not want to look at again frankly) Our last trip following our coach from 50 miles north of mex border back to Avondale Phx was at 75 mph and arriving at nearly 2 am yesterday!!
This time the throttle stoped a few times them suddenly locked at full throttle sending us hurtling down hwy unable to cut it out or stop coach with retarder and brakes, Ruth was very scared and frankly we thought our time was coming to end in heavy traffic!!
Within a few seconds it cut out again and I got it over on the side. While calling the shop for tow the H Patrol came up as a helicopter had watched us and they sent 2 cars to assist and get us off hwy. I started coach up and was able to limp down ramp to safety. It was 5 hrs to wait for tow and in 10 mins he had the deck on ground and coach on it then he returned the deck back on frame, unbelievable hydraulic system all remote controlled and not one scratch to coach.
Next day at shop they were very appologetic and I told them I was leaving it with them to find problem and take off new ecm they put on as it was not the answer but am convinced it is bad wire going to it behind the fuel filter. We will see what transpires in the next episode.
This shop is big, very well equipped and very busy with lots of PHX govt vehicles so must be good. This issue of mine is one they have not met before I guess and the tech guy doing it owns a AM Eagle coach so he knows pretty much the same things as FT.
I have left the info for FT with the shop but as I have not had any reply from JT there to my posts asking hopefully that he can "chime in" with help( as I am sure they read all this) I doubt they will talk to Rocky Mtn Cummins either on this issue. I guess $25 must be a real big thing with them as I have not paid it yet!! This to me is sad, and frankly my biggest upset that I and others do not matter.
We are safe, clean (finally) and will be washing our underwear today to try and get back to normal.
One thing I have to say that I am ever so grateful for the feedback from FF Friends and others for their genuine help and feelings. A special note to Brad and Dave Metzger, Barry L etc who have gone overboard to keep in touch by phone etc and continue to try and get to the bottom of our issue, this means a lot and we are all very lucky to have them aboard. I am not Religous but I do mean this "Thank God for both of you" You are very careing people even though Dave is sometimes opinionated ( like us all) he means well and has become a close friend. Thank you both and I will let all know what the next bill is for= :)) :)) on edit-- the Silverleaf has come up with exactly the same info as shop and I am happy to have it.
Take care
JohnH
John and Ruth:
Glad you both are safe now in Mexico. Enjoy your visit, drink your favorite beverage ( or 2 ) and let the Cummins experts do their thing. Hopefully the coach will be like new when you get back.
Ted & Karen
Wow John, just wow! Of course we are glad you and Ruth are safe, and I think you made a good decision to go down and visit your friends and get away from the coach for a bit. I am sure everyone on the forum can empathize with how that felt, because we all know if it happened to you it could happen to anyone else with an electronic coach, or perhaps even with a mechanical coach (I once had a throttle stick wide open on my Datsun 2 liter roadster... throttle cable hung up).
It seems to me that the best way to diagnose this strange and intermittent issue could be to put the coach on the dyno while the diagnostic computer is hooked up to it. Put it under load and get fully warmed up. When it happens with the computer hooked up and a tech monitoring the procedure, they should be able to narrow it down to a specific component failure, or at least wire bundle leading to the component. Maybe them being able to take some time to think about it since they will have it for a month, will give them the opportunity to have an inspiration and a definitive answer about why this keeps happening. I think you should continue to bug them by phone to make sure they don't forget about it until the day before you are going to show up and take it off their hands.... let them know a forum over three thousand strong with likely a majority powered by Cummins engines is watching to see how they do with this and word will spread!
Anyway, have fun south of the border! I wish I would have had some knowledge I could contributed to help you resolve this before now, but you can bet that I will be paying attention to find out what caused all this... we all will, I am sure!
Don & Tys
Thanks all. I did send them an email this morning giving my thoughts and from others on ideas. That is why I thought of leaving it with them for some time to hopefully think it thru right. We actually will be in mexico more than a month but wanted to have them fix before we get close to leaving here. Every day is a learning curve for sure.
Don how did you make out with elec problems at Q??
JohnH
Wow, full throttle!! That's incredible. Didn't even think something like that could happen to these engines. Could you not even kill it with the key switch? Put the trans in "N" and let the engine cutout on high RPM?
This is a real eye opener. Any additional details you can provide as to how you got it stopped would be appreciated.
I put the Trans in N and the engine went to max sounding like a jet engine then thinking it would blow up I hit D and then suddenely it (throttle) cut back to zero. Ruth said she was so scared and looked at me to see my mind working but looking in control ?? so she just did not speak at left me to do what I had to!
I would not like anyone to go thru those seconds believe me.!!
My Brother Geoff called the shop in PHX today it seems to find out what was happening as I had not contacted him at the time ( travelling thru Mex with no phone or wi fi at the time) and they told him it was going into shop today so hope they email me with info.
One thing I have to say if you are in that general area this is a good place to go for service and work.
Take care and look after your loved ones. Life is too short.
John H
edit. Due to us being in Mexico I do not have cell coverage so if you are trying to get hold of me it will be best with email
John, so happy you and Ruth are safe. That is an incredible thing. As others have said, we all hope to learn from this when the real cause is determined.
Dick and Rockey
John, just pondering what the situation might have been had you already been in Mexico and had this "throttle" episode? (amongst other things)? You may have dodged a bullet in having it all go down whilst still in the good ol' US of A. What would the towing possibilities "down there" have been like? Would anyone (towing outfits) from the US been able or willing to get to you "south of the border"? I think it was a pretty lucky strike, being (what, 50 miles?) north of the border....glad to hear you are both safe & sound & made the effort anyway...agree it was a good idea to go anyway, not to give up.....safe travels.
Yes I have to agree on the possibility of not been able to get a tow truck with a big enough deck to sit on , but they do have large trucks to lift and tow with front axle (which in the FT book is the recommended way). Funnily enough we did see a large truck on Hy 15 doing just that and I said to Ruth I felt bad for him now knowing what it is like to break down.
They have great mechanics that can fix almost every problem (usually by the roadside) but I do agree it would have taken a lot more time to get a tow etc than it did in US or Canada, even though the cost would have been half of what it did cost.
I will again take a moment to thank all who tried to help sort out problem starting at Q and for Dave K's knowledge for putting the Accel gauge on my Silverleaf screen so I could tell what was happening in those split seconds and what to expect next.
JohnH
John,
I sure would like to know more... What parameter is the "Accel gauge" measuring, is it throttle position? I don't remember seeing that on the PID screen in my VMSPC. I must investigate!
Don
Miz,
Cummins has manufacturing facilities in Warez and San Luis Potosi with shops in many cities. DINA worked with Cummins to design and produce heavy and medium duty engines in Mexico. Mexico is the world's sixth largest truck manufacturer (number seven for cars). Many Detroits that can't pass smog have found their way to Mexico and Canada where they join their brothers. Always being curious, I have looked in several bus engine compartments in the past and have seen the the Detroit 6V-92TA with the DDEC (electronic engine). Mercedes now owns Detroit Diesel and Freightliner trucks among others so has a huge presence all the way to the tip of South America. All the thousands of Mercedes buses in Latin America have Detroits in them as they all share the DD (Detroit) or OM (Mercedes) designation depending on the vehicle they are installed in.
Anytime you see a MCI (Grayhound, etc) bus, the Mexican company DINA purchased them quite a few years ago, moved the headquarters from Phoenix to Chicago but are Mexican controlled. Ford, Navistar, Nissan, VW already have plants in Mexico.
One Foretravel member had their Allison transmission expire south of the border. They were towed to an Allison facility where the transmission was rebuilt at half the cost quoted here.
Times have changed from the rusted out vehicles of the 1950's. Here is a quote from last year:
"Gone are the days when Mexico produced only compact sedans and pickup trucks. Later this decade, new plants will be producing premium vehicles, BMWs and Mercedes, Infinitis and Audis. Many Nissan vehicles that roll out of the existing plants in Aguascalientes are bound not for domestic showrooms or to auto dealers in the United States but for Brazil, Colombia, the United Arab Emirates and dozens of other markets.
The huge growth comes not just because of Mexico's good highways and railways, its healthy steel industry and its cheap wages. It's also because of plentiful engineers and the skill of global automakers at keeping quality high, wherever their cars are built."
We spent a week in Detroit, MI this last December. From a city of 2.5 million to just 700,000 today, it's pretty easy to see where the jobs and auto/truck factories have gone.
Pierce
I agree totally with what Pierce has said and have full confidence in Mex mechanics. They do things different sometimes but have great knowledge and try to fix things on the spot, yes roadside. The road down so far is amazingly smooth and we did not see one rusted broken down style car of previous trips, but newer ones just as above Border. Except for Hermosillo we ran at 70mph being passed by Buses sounding so sweet it was amazing. in the 17 yrs I have been coming down mainland it has changed a great deal and some of the toll roads make hwys north of the Border look like junk. Things have changed a lot and the people are ever so friendly still.
The tow situation is not quite the same but I am sure that will improve. Due to the fact that money is generally not as free flowing as in US etc they tend to look at simple things first and as I am fairly confident our problem is this, maybe it would all be fixed right now--who knows.
@Don-- the PID is 91 so check that out on Silverleaf and what it does is give you a percentage of throttle action with a sliding coloured scale in bar form. I like it a lot--so again thanks dave K.
JohnH
John,
Have been putting together parts from your puzzle as they keep coming in. Trying to put my best guess forward, I think it may have something to do with the fly by wire throttle. Since the engine went to full throttle and back to idle by itself, I would think it could have to do with the wiring close to the engine where abrasion, rodents or something else has compromised the wiring. Changes in temperature and or vibration may be causing the intermittent problem. The other possibility could be in the wiring between the ECU and the injectors. This would also be close to the engine where the above causes would be relevant but putting more $$ to my first guess.
This would also explain why there are no active or stored fault codes.
Rigging a temporary wiring loom from the engine ECU up to the foot throttle could be used to check this. Since the ECU has been changed out, it would seem to be eliminated as a possible cause. A temporary foot throttle and short wiring to the ECU could also be used on a chassis dyno to simulate operating temperature, shifting , vibration, etc.
Pierce
How does the fly by wire throttle system work? Is there a follow up or position sensor behind the throttle peddle? If so could you disconnect it and use an ohm meter to check if the output signal is smooth through out the entire range of travel?
Bad signals (loss of throttle and full throttle ) could be caused by erratic signal output from the throttle position sending unit.
John,
The short answer is Yes to both questions.
Pamela & Mike
The root cause of these problems is usually quite simple in the end. It's probably a broken/cut wire or bad connector or bad foot throttle.
The ECM is just box that takes a bunch of inputs uses some logic, and makes some outputs. If those inputs are BAD or erroneous, but it thinks they are good, the ECM is just going to continue doing it's thing.
It helps to be able to see what the ECM is seeing using the proper scan tool, but even VMSPC would help you diagnose.
Using known good components and isoaltion is the only way to solve the problem. Start buy wiring a different foot throttle directly to the ECU
It is and has been for a while that my thought too is a wire problem by ecu (abrasion etc etc) and that is what I have told them to check first and remove filter to give better access and sight.
They did mention that if no plain answer they would run a wire from one to another so hope by Monday there is some info coming this way.
JohnH
Whoo, fly by wire buddy bus! :D Anybody know what the signal is, pwm perhaps? Is the throttle servo actuated? My money is also on the pedal assembly.
Pedal sensor was replaced and ohms checked and good. Road test-failure, proved not to be sensor. ECM replaced and I drove for 45 mins with tech sitting in Passenger seat and computer hooked up and all showed well in every parameter. Hooked up car to drive to Mexico and 3 hrs later it all happened again and worse. Everything that has been mentioned has been done and still no go.As I said before I believe it is bad wire by ECM that makes contact for a while then changes position and all hell breaks loose by shorting out or?? One thing that is common is after 5 hrs + sitting all returns normal, but, for how long??
JohnH
John, does the stinger module control the fuel on your engine.
Did they check grounds?
I've been bit quite a few times by bad grounds. Whenever something strange or intermittent happens, I always start with grounds---I learned the hard way!
Bill W, actually not sure but am certain someone on Forum knows the answer. I did the By Pass of stinger and it made no difference to problem at the time.
On the ground issue I will ask them by email if that could be an issue, as I am sure the tech that was working on it would know. He has been there 14 yrs as their problem solver so sure he would know. He has a 40ft DP too.
Thanks all for input again.
JohnH
John, you are on the right track with wiring most likely. That's only a five volt max signal from pedal to ecu and needs to be near perfect connection to work. Wiring is supposed to be twisted pair and not run in a bundle in bundle with other harnesses. Did you see the pedal recalibrated with three slow presses key on? Supposed to do it whenever pedal is disconnected .
Chuck, you are correct about the voltage being 5v, and mine tested out at 4.2 going to senser and 4.8v coming back which is not good as the out volts should not exceed the in ones (to make it simple) I have been having some much higher that cause the cut out of throttle but faults recorded do not show what that voltage had been at the shut down time.
The 3 slow passes on peddle to reprogramme it I did a couple of times and so did tech and it did not work, but as we are having other issues as well maybe that was reason?
Hopefully tomorrow they have some answers so I can forget this whole thing and start to enjoy our time down here.
JohnH
Just had an email from Cummins on coach. They are putting it in shop for checking tomorrow and install of new lift pump as I asked them too. Mind you if coach will not go anywere I do not need a new lift pump do I? :))
Let you know what happens.
JohnH
John, What possible connection can there be between the lift pump and runaway or stuck throttle.
Man I hope you get some real answers soon, you have been thru hell on this issue.
Gary B
John, This thing has me bugged, I am no mechanic but my BIL ran a fleet of over a hundred tractors and recently retired.
In my conversation with him and reading these posts to him he agrees that Cummins is chasing a fuel problem of some kind.
In his fleet he found some odd things such as rags in the fuel tank, the float off the fuel level gauge in the tank and once even a plastic ball that got sucked into the fuel pickup in the tank.
His take on it is that since Cummins has eliminated everything else it is time to inspect the fuel pick in the tank for foreign objects that restrict fuel.
Don't know if any of this is valid but it does make sense.
Good luck with it.
Gary B
Gary - would fuel restriction be applicable in the most recent instance of a runaway throttle?
Michelle, If pump lacks fuel the governor will be telling the pump to supply more and since there is no more fuel engine will run faster and faster til it hits stops on Governor. Not a very technical explanation but that's what I understand. Also a blocked or crimped fuel return line would have the same effect.
Has John had any recent repairs done on fuel tank, gauges, return lines ?
Gary B
Thanks Gary - I get the picture now (sometimes you have to draw them with crayons for me ;) )
Gary, no fuel line problems worked on and mine are in good shape as I had checked them from tank to engine, no cracks etc.
This is definitly an electrical issue as Silverleaf also said that as well as their diagnotic stuff.
The lift pump I am having changed is only because I have a new one and the one on is original and of course there have been many leaks etc on others due to ULSD damage of gaskets etc, so I just wanted it done while it is in their shop as I cannot get in their myself.
My tank is clean as a yr ago I drained it to see if any algea and it was spotless and only I have done anything to coach in last 3 yrs.
Will wait for update tomorrow.
Johnh
edit, one thing they have not eliminated yet is my thought that a broken wire next to engine block is causing it all. hope that is it.
John, I wish we had it over your pit. Alligator clips, jumpers, a good fluke meter and someone wiggling the harness would answer some questions quick. Hopefully your Cummins guys have a test harness to ring out the wiring and connectors.
OK John, Just a thought, as you know sometimes the least obvious fact can hold an answer while the most obvious means nothing. Good luck with this mess.
Gary B
Gary, appreciate all ideas totally and have just written JT to see if he has any too, we will see if he answers with any.
JohnH ( in sunny blue sky San carlos mexico)
Just had a reply from JT and he has sent me trouble shooting checklist so sent it to shop and hope it helps.
JohnH
Please post the list John! That is, unless JT requested that you don't... ^.^d though I can't imagine why he would object to sharing information that has a direct effect on the safety of FOT motorcoach owners...
Don
Don I did try to post them but it did not work. They are PDF files that are in "my Documents" now so if Michelle will explain how to add them I will do it. These are actually the fault code steps to check the wiring etc etc when this particular thing happens.
I will do it once I get them to work
JohnH
edit, see if they open
Thanks John! That worked... ^.^d
Don
For those interested, you can get that information for free from Cummins QuickServe (for your engine) Cummins QuickServe Online (https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html)
You have to register for an account, which is free and provides access the Electronic Service Manuals, Parts Catalogs, Wiring Diagrams, etc for up to 5 engine seriarl numbers.
After I logged in to the site, select Service, then Fault code search, then SPN/FMI To Fault Codes, enter 131 under fault code and get the following documents (these for my 03 so slightly different)
Anyway a great source of information!
Good news to report. I just got a message from Cummins PHX and it goes like this."PERFORM WIRING CHECKS ON OEM SIDE OF HARNESSESS FOR THROTTLE PEDAL AND INSPECT HARNESS AND CONNECTORS. REMOVED PANELS AS NEEDED. R/I FUEL FILTER AND ECM. FOUND 5 VOLT SUPPLY AND RETURN TERMINALS DAMAGED AND WOULDN'T LOCK INTO THE CONNECTOR AT THE ECM. REPLACED WITH REPAIR CONNECTORS. ROAD TESTED, 2 HOUR ROUND TRIP, NO PROBLEMS. MONITORED ECM FUNCTIONS WHILE DRIVING."
So this repair is in the exact location behind fuel filter that I figured it would be and now tonight I think I can sleep finally.
We will be seeing it again in 5 weeks but am sure it now is working as should. The intermittant problems to me fit this finding.
You will all be glad not to be hearing any more on this issue I am sure, but thank you so much for all the input you had.
John H
John, bet you are glad THAT saga is over!
John, Fantastic, glad its resolved.
Gary B
I felt all along after the throttle sensor was changed that the location of all the connectors right tight behind the fuel filter was a bad place for them and in previous changes of this filter it was most probably comprimised by someone when changing as they maybe had not been aware of how sensitive those wires (and important) are, but are bundled up very close to filter. I could see that from below when I changed it last, but did not think to check them at that time as all was well.
So, anyone with same setup should make the service dept that is changing your filter VERY aware of them and to be careful or the same fate will happen to you too.
JohnH
John, ask Cummins if they can move the engine filter to the frame rail next to the other filter.
Bill, if that can be done I will do it once home. Seem to remember it being a cast unit bolted to block but will look in 5 weeks. I do not want any more time spent on it there when I can do it at home, thanks for idea.
JohnH
John
Glad the problem has been found and repaired. It is amazing how big problems can come out of small wiring issues put in obscure places. Guess the designers never figured anyone would have to work on them. That filter on the engine is in a place made for someone with stretch arms to get to. Is it easier from your pit??
Enjoy the rest of your vacation now.
Ted
If the filter & mount can't be moved, what about making some kind of sheet metal guard to protect the wiring from inadvertent contacts that could damage the wiring?
the filter is easier from pit but still tough and any guard I think should be made out of insulating materials. I am sure I can place closer to rear end and run hosing to and from it. We will see. My first job once home is to repair the rear door and mountings that got broken and bent on first tow.
JohnH
Certainly turned out to be a very educational saga. Would be nice if connections that lost integrity would glow in the dark or some such thing. Happy all is well and continuing your trip. The village here as referred to instead of trailer park has been busy. Juan has been busy since October with one paint job after another. Bus mechanics have rebuilt an alternator including bearings and are rebuilding a turbo charger. Between the isles, they have also installed a drive axle gasket. Last week was air conditioner repair days with many having the dash air brought up to speed and systems recharged. All done without moving the motor homes. Just does not get any better.
On a side note, Carnival is Sunday the 15th (the parade) Monday I'm going to try and get some plastic lawn chair seats on the Vista del Mar balcony. If you thought you might be here in Mazatlan and wanted to see the parade, I'll purchase extra seats. (it's nothing fancy, but a good vantage point.
Just today I had a throttle problem with my 1996 U270 with a Cummins engine. I had just left my house and was doing about 25 mph on a residential street when the engine starts accelerating. A lot. I am braking hard against a racing coach and pull over. I can tell the coach is wound up tight as I put it in neutral and my heavy tool box gets thrown about a foot forward. The RPMs are over 2500 and the gas pedal does nothing. I turn off the engine. After a short meditation I start it up and all is OK. I take it to the storage lot without further incident.
This could have gone bad in so many ways. What do I do next? Is this related to Johns problem? Wear those seat belts please.
Not related to John's Electronic Control Module (ECM) plug/contacts problem.
John's is a computer controlled engine while yours is a mechanically controlled engine. I believe that your 1996 Cummins 8.3 has a King Controls throttle and speed control (servo motor driven) unit. If I am correct, it (the King Controls unit) sits on the frame rail on the curbside of the engine compartment and has a cable attached to the mechanical throttle linkage on the engine.
There should be one or two large throttle return springs attached to that same linkage. Standard is two. It is, in a way, installed that way for backup protection. OEM, the springs are notorious for wearing a groove deep enough to fail, leaving one with no assurance that the throttle will return to the minimum setting (if both springs have failed).
If that has occurred, it must be corrected before operating the coach as another run away condition may be anticipated.
If the springs are OK, then there are King Controls trouble shooting charts available on the Barry Beam site and through Internet search. Here's a link: NOTE: Symptom -- Throttle Sticks Off Idle
NO THROTTLE, NO CRUISE, NO FAST IDLE (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/kc_2600_throttle_system_diagnostic_chart.html)
Let us know,
Neal
Croos country, we will be going thru Maz' on the night of 8th and leave next morning as Ruth has dental work to get done on 10th but thanks for offer. If we get into town early enough we will pop over the san Ffernando to meet.
There are total of 4 FT coaches here in san carlos right now.
johnh
Ny First guess was the throttle position sensor. We were all in the right area anyway.
John S, just wondering if you knew what the problem turned out to be? 3 bad connectors at the ECM for throttle control, not sensor just make and breaking at that point, exactly what I was experiencing and hope it never happens to anyone else as can be very dangerous outcome.
JohnH
I have a new throttle position sensor in the spare parts bin. I think we had the same issue. Mine was wiring too but not at the ECM connector but at the sensor.