Title says it all - I'm in the market, seeking opinions from the collective.
Our current (ha, ha) inverter is the original Taytronics I-1500 modified sine wave unit. It is still functioning, but at our recent first attempt at boon-docking (Q), we had a few issues. We used it mainly to power our Samsung residential fridge. During the night, it seemed to pull our house batteries down rather quickly. It required 2-3 hours each morning, and 2-3 hours each evening running the generator to keep the batteries topped off. We have 2 fresh 8D AGM house batts, and a good 4-stage converter/charger.
Also, the inverter would occasionally kick off line during the night, for no apparent reason. The battery voltage would still be good, and the "Overload" light would be off. Pushing the reset button would put it back on line for the rest of the night.
ANYWAY, for these reasons, and just because I'm trying to update all the coach systems (as funds permit), I'm in the market for a new inverter. Here are my general shopping parameters:
1. As much as possible, I'd like a "direct replacement" for the original unit, which means it can use the existing battery input cables, can be "hard-wired" into the output circuit, and will physically fit in the existing space (there is lots of room).
2. Must be Pure Sine Wave inverter only. I already have a good separate charger/converter.
3. Would be big enough to handle residential fridge plus convection oven/microwave, but not too big (to reduce parasitic draw). I'm thinking around 2000 watt should do it.
The unit linked below looks like it meets requirements, but I know nothing about the company. Anybody have any recommendations?
(I did search the Forum for info, but most entries were either dated (old) or pertained to combination inverter-chargers.)
Amazon.com: Go Power! GP-SW2000-12 2000-Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-GP-SW2000-12-2000-Watt-Inverter/dp/B00153CUVS)
If I am reading the spec sheet correctly, it draws 2.8A under no load. Ouch.
this will kill your batteries even while the refrigerator is cycled off.
I'd look for something better.
also, consider two, smaller inverters.
Can't you run your fridge on propane???
Do you have solar panels?
Note OP's criteria #3:
Residential fridge doesn't run on propane.
You should understand and watch for some pitfalls with some (coughChinesecough) inverters.
1. Many of them do not come with any provisions for connecting them to a circuit breaker (or fuse) panel. They have AC plug-in sockets only. Avoid these.
2. If you do buy one without a way to wire it into your system, you will probably get an inverter where the total wattage of the unit is divided by the number of AC plugins which limits usable power. For instance, a PSW inverter with 3 plugs installed on it would only provide 500 watts to each plugin. This would not work for a microwave although it might be good enough for a residential fridge.
3. Some of them have plastic cases which do not dissipate heat very well.
4. The larger the inverter, the greater the "idle" current. What you want is a unit with under 1-amp of idle current.
5. Most of the time the inverter marketing information doesn't mention any of these.
So you have to read the questions and answers. As recently as two years ago no one suspected they were limiting the outlets. Now at least a few people do and usually someone asks in the Q&A part (on Amazon).
I *think* this one would do the job: Amazon.com : 2000W Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter 4000W Peak 12VDC to 110VAC... (http://www.amazon.com/2000W-Power-Inverter-110VAC-Remote/dp/B00MRGOSX0/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1423783978&sr=1-4&keywords=2000+watt+pure+sine+wave+inverter)
It has a way to connect to a circuit breaker panel (in which case you probably should not use the outlets on the device itself). You can see the wiring connectors to the circuit breaker panel if you mouse over the photo. It will provide full power to the panel. It draws 0.8 amps on idle. It appears to have a metal case. It has a remote.
If I were looking right now, I'd probably give this one a try. Price is not too bad. $319.
Craig
Step up to a Magnum (2812) and be done with it. pc
For only $1100 more!!!
Sure, it's better... but is it almost 4x better?
Nope.
Craig :)
I'd rather find an OE unit from a later model than knowingly deal with an unknown piece if $ is the issue. pc
Nothing from an OE unit will be PSW until you get into the mid-to-late 2000s and most of those won't be for sale since power requirements are decreasing not increasing (LED HDTV units, satellite systems, LEDs, etc.). And, if he finds one, it will likely have a higher idle current and include a charger (which he specifically said he does not need).
The only time I'll consider a Magnum is when I need power sharing.
Craig
I would go with a modified sine wave inverter --- lower cost and your fridge and other appliances won't know the difference.
There's a Freedom 20 on ebay.
Spend time researching what is available before you proceed PLEASE.
HandyBob's forum is an excellent tutorial. pc
More battery
Lots of good info being presented here - food for thought.
I agree the 2.8A no-load draw on the Go Power! inverter I linked is excessive - thanks, Tom, for pointing that out.
The Magnum 2812 is a inverter/charger - I don't need the charger. Plus the PRICE - OUCH!
The inverter link Craig provided sounds OK, but just another company I've never heard of, so makes me nervous.
I want Pure Sine so I can run anything I want (including convection/microwave for short periods of time) without worrying.
PC: I will do my research before buying - I try not to leap before I look... I will check out the HandyBob forum, thanks.
You might consider calling Alan at Bay Marine - he's a commercial sponsor on the forum.
He really knows inverter/charger stuff and he is very helpful. I have bought several items from him. His prices are very competitive and he offers discounts on some brands to forum members.
Several forum members have posted their good experiences with Alan.
@Chuck I'm in about the same situation as you. Looking to replace my Taytronics inverter and I don't need a charger/converter either. Already have the Progressive Dynamic 90amp charger.
I've only done a little research and haven't bought one yet but this is the one I'm looking at. I like it since I can hardwire it and should be able to just trade it out with the Taytronics.
Samlex 1,500 Watt 12 Volt Sine Wave Inverter (http://www.solar-electric.com/samlex-pure-sine-wave-inverter-pst-1500-12.html)
They also make a 2000 watt.
Sure would appreciate it if you would buy it and let me know how you like it. :)
see ya
ken
Take a look at Tripp Lite. They are a U.S. Company and make both sine wave and modified sine wave inverters. We use these in critical power industrial applications, and we have never had a failure. Not that pricy either. They are heavy duty.
Ken: Thanks for the link. The solar-electric.com link is a good reference - lots of info. The PST-2000 looks very interesting.
Kemahjohn: Thanks - I will check out Tripp Lite. Would really like to "buy American" if possible, but getting hard to do these days.
Aren't the Xantrex Freedom 20s modified sine wave?
Craig
I learned something recently about the positioning of the inverter as it relates to the house batteries. We have a 3000 watt Xantrex but I can't run the microwave without getting a low battery voltage warning and tripping the 110 breaker that powers the inverter. The Xantrex inverter pro in Phoenix tells me he thinks it's the length of the 2/0 cables between the Xantrex and the house batteries. The Xantrex is in the front storage bay behind the generator bay. It's almost 20 feet to the house batteries that are located behind the back wheels. He recommends no more than 6 feet of distance between the batteries and the inverter.
The point being, if you are installing a new inverter, try to mount it as close to the batteries as possible to minimize the current draw due to loss in the cabling. If I remember correctly, Ken's 92 has the inverter in the same bay as his batteries, a much better design than in my 93.
I use a $45 750 Watt Schumacher inverter (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/750-watt-power-inverter/prod862841.ip?navAction=) for everything I need on a daily basis and use the generator for the microwave. My inverter is only wired into one house circuit.
Then again, I have been a full time boondocker living off the grid for 11 years and run my fridge on propane.
*I have 500 watts of solar panels, a 40 amp charge controller and six 6v golf cart batteries with a watering system -- and all of that cost way less than one of those big inverters.
No need to run the generator to charge batteries, Even on the shortest days of winter my house batteries never go below 12.4 volts.
The no-name issue is only an issue if you compare it to Magnum (and maybe Trip-Lite and Morningstar). Many of the "names" are made in China (including Xantrex according to HandyBob). HandyBob also thinks that all (or most) of the "name" brands that are made in China (Samlex, Power Bright, etc) are crap but there are also good reviews on many of them.
The Samlex that Kenhat linked to is also on Amazon at about the same price. The single review was only 2 stars but the comments the reviewer made seem to indicate that the unit performs much better than the low rating. A comment to the rating claims that the PST series Samlex inverters are built to a higher standard. Here's a link to the Samlex unit on Amazon: Amazon.com: Samlex 1500W Pure Sine Wave Inverter PST-1500-12: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Samlex-1500W-Pure-Inverter-PST-1500-12/dp/B00AYH686E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423842674&sr=8-1&keywords=samlex+PST-1500-12). But Samlex is on HandyBob's "list". Nevertheless, for just under $500 it looks pretty suitable to me and the 0.8-amp idle current looks good, too.
I have one of the no-name Chinese inverters - one that divides the available power between the number of receptacles, actually (bought before I knew they did that) - and it's worked well for us. The idle current is only 0.5-amps and the sine wave (on an oscilloscope) looks ok. But I bought this unit as a temporary inverter until I had a better plan. I think the Samlex 1500 is superior but it didn't exist 3 years ago when I bought my inverter. I have not tried to wire it into any of the RV's "house" circuits - our RV was built back when inverters were pretty rare - and, like Dakota Slim, I just start the generator up if we need the microwave. We just plug things into the inverter if we need to... or put a power strip on for multiple use. Mostly we have used it to just charge laptops, tablets and cell phones.
In general I prefer to use lower powered inverters for specific uses rather than one big inverter. Since big inverters also have big idle currents, this can reduce power use. It's also easier to simply turn on the inverter for the front TV/BluRay as needed and then just turn it off when I'm done. Samlex, for instance, offers a 120-watt PST pure sine inverter for $97 (DonRowe.com: Samlex PST-120-12, 12 Volt, 120 Watt Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter (http://www.donrowe.com/Samlex-PST-120-12-p/pst-120-12.htm)) that will run my front LED HDTV and BluRay player. This has zero idle-current because when we're done watching a movie we turn all of it - including the inverter - off. I have another small PSW inveter for the Tailgater Dish satellite unit and rear LED HTDV. Both simply plug into a cigarette lighter plug which is handy in both locations. (I checked power draw using a Kill-a-Watt unit before doing any of this, by the way.)
Trip-Lite has been around for a long time but you have to be careful when you search for them because their specs don't always mention whether the inverter is modified sine-wave or give the idle current (or efficiency). In fact, if the specs on any inverter do not specifically state "Pure Sine Wave" then it's almost certainly a MSW unit. And very few of them will give you the idle current; at least not without some searching.
Trip-Lite has what appears to be an excellent PSW hard-wired inverter/charger: Amazon.com: TRIPP LITE APS2012SW 2000 Watt 12 Volt Inverter / Charger Pure... (http://www.amazon.com/TRIPP-APS2012SW-Inverter-Charger-Hardwire/dp/B006R64SUE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1423843944&sr=8-2&keywords=tripp+lite+pure+sine+inverter) for just under $1,000 at Amazon. This is also a charger, however. And it looks big. And I could not find any mention of idle current. I think these are intended for use at server rooms to provide UPS.
Magnum's are the no-brainer installation for inverters. But they do not offer a 1500-watt in PSW and they all include a charger. It's a pretty good charger, though. Also, idle current can be high... ranging from 0.5 amps (which is good) to about 1.5-amps (not so good) depending upon the mode. I'm seriously considering moving to one of their load-sharing hybrid inverter/chargers in two years. Partly because my Onan is 22 years old and I'm not at all sure how long it will continue to operate and a hybrid inverter along with one of the 2,000 watt Yamaha generators would let us run at least one A/C (with our solar system). But not yet because I do not know what I'll be doing in two years. But Magnum is up front with its specs and you can be sure that what you get will do what you bought it to do.
None of this is easy since marketing seems to demand that it's better to confuse potential buyers than to be honest with them. Like LED flashlights which invent all sorts of new methods to rate their light output in a way that cannot be accurately compared to any other unit.
YMMV
Craig
Yes, basic installation recommendation is "as close to the batteries as possible, BUT not in the battery compartment". Adequate ventilation is also important, as they do turn some input into heat. I really don't like to see them mounted high in a compartment unless there is an auxiliary fan installed to keep them cool.
I have been looking at a Xantrex Prowatt SW2000 2000W True Sinewave Inverter Dual GFCI USB 806-1220 for a replacement for $369.00. There is also a SW1000 and a SW600 available.
Bill
Bill... double check but I suspect some of the "prowatt" units divide up the total power by the number of receptacles (plugins). And for some reason the "2000" model is really only 1800 watts continuous. Apparently it can be hooked into a circuit breaker panel but not 3 wire.
Craig
Hi Guys,
I bought a Xantrex Prowatt SW-600 a year ago and it had problems of dropping out every half hour on only a 250 watt load. Presumably the low power factor (0.65) of my loads was a problem for it. Gave up and bought a Samlex 1000 and have had no problems at all even with the same power factor.
I have noticed that GFI receptacle's on some inverters sometimes do not like my loads (pop immediately - yea I know, I must have current leakage somewhere) so I hard wired the Samlex because it was desgnerd with that capability as well. The remote control panel is a nice option for the 1000 and larger models.
Kent and Craig and others all bring up important points.
When I said I wanted a simple "swap new for old" installation, I wondered about the placement of the original inverter. My coach is just like Kent's - batteries behind the rear wheels, and inverter up in the forward storage bay behind the entry steps. So I also have a long cable run from batteries to inverter. If I want to use the existing wiring, I'm stuck with this location. If I wanted to relocate the inverter, I could possibly shorten the input cables, but would have to reroute the output cables. I'm not clear where they actually tie into the coach wiring system, so would have to figure that out. (PS: I'm no electrician - only know enough to be dangerous)
I'm not sure where else I would be able to mount a inverter. Forward of the batteries is the rear wheels, then the wet bay, then my big center storage bay. If I moved the inverter to the center bay, it might shorten the input cables by about 5'. Is that enough to justify the hassle of installing new cables and rerouting the output wiring? The (new) inverter might fit in the "electrical box" under the bed platform, but there is no ventilation there, plus close to engine heat. I suppose the inverter could go somewhere underneath the rear end of the coach, but would need a custom mounting shelf and protection from the elements. Are they weather resistant?
We are presently controlling the inverter manually, using the simple inverter panel next to the kitchen sink. When I disconnect from shore power, I turn the inverter on to power the residential fridge. If we want to use the microwave on the road, I turn the inverter off, and start the generator. When done with generator, I shut it down and turn inverter back on. When we stop for the night (with hookups), I turn the inverter off and plug into shore power. I don't have any problem doing things this way, so I would like to retain the same type manual control with the new inverter. The Samlex has a nice (extra cost) remote control panel that I could mount in place of the OEM panel. Since my inverter is only "on" when I need it, I am not too worried about no-load idle current draw.
Many things to ponder... Good thing it's not a emergency, and I have lots of time to figure it out!
Have you looked at the Victron inverters? They offer a pretty wide range of inverter-only pure sine wave type.
I have a 180W pure sine wave Victron inverter. It is very well built.
I also have a Victron battery monitor and also a solar charge controller.
Lately it seems when I'm researching products Victron keeps coming up as the cutting edge, reliable choice. It's a Netherlands company that has been designing and building commercial and marine products for 30 + years.
Might be worth checking out.
If your coach is like ours, there is an AC circuit breaker box under the forward end of your bed. That's where the AC ties into the coach's 120vac circuits. So it's quite likely that you could put the inverter in the area under your bed with a short run to the batteries. At least, *I* could do that. But my batteries are located just aft of the mid-entry door so my inverter (along with all the solar stuff) is right above it in what was formerly the home of the build-in vacuum cleaner system.
There are lots of advantages to mounting a "pass through" inverter under the bed; short run to the circuit breakers, easy tie-in to the shore power system, close (in your case) to the batteries.
Craig
Morningstar Sure Sine 300 @ +/- $200.00
Should do the job, unless you need 2. pc
I just went out and looked over my inverter location and mounting. I was incorrect when I estimated the cable length reduction if I mounted a new inverter in the big center storage bay. It would actually reduce the cable length (from batteries to inverter) by 50% or more. That might be worth the extra work! It looks like the input and output cables all travel through the storage bay cable pan, so it should be possible to simply cut them at the halfway point and make a new connection to the new inverter. I could make a shelf for the inverter to sit on, which would keep it up out of the way and allow good ventilation.
I'd rather avoid putting the inverter under the bed. If it makes any noise, it might disturb the sleep of my DW, which would be a bad thing (for me).
The layout of your coach will dictate what the best solution is. In my 1993 U235, there is a closet directly over the battery compartment. I mounted the solar controller and inverter in the closet, then ran the wires from the solar panels straight down to the controller, then straight down from the controller to the batteries. Then I ran the 12 volt supply wires straight up to the inverter and hooked the 110 volt wires coming from the inverter directly to the AC circuit under the closet floor. I, of course, disconnected that AC circuit in the AC panel under the bed.