Since our purchase of a 2001 U270 and joining this forum, I have been formulating a list of items that should be done on older coaches when purchased to insure that the malfunction and breakdown during a trip does not occur. This list may be incomplete and others may want to added to it. The cost to upgrade and replace items does have a cost, however if we were to buy a new motorhome the depreciation that takes place as we drive it off the sales lot is no small amount. Add to that the cost to replace and repair over the next 10 years and the frustration of trips not taken because of on the road repairs. It is my opinion that the cost over the time we will own the Coach will not be that much greater then fixing as it breaks down plus the peace of mind of going out on the road in a coach that is in the best mechanical shape we can make it.
New Tires
New house and engine batteries
Dyno Engine
Engine harmonic balancer pulley
All idler pulleys
Service engine and transmission
Transmission Bearing replacement
Driveline angle and balancer
ABS sensors
Wheel Bearings and seals
Rebuild steering box
Replace all fuel lines
Replace all brake pads
Service Air system
Replace all air springs
Replace height control valves
Replace HWH control pad overlay
Replace all front and rear frame bulkhead bolts with a permanent repair
On the roof, remove the old obsolete antennas, install new antennas and epoxy fill all old screw holes
Replace both A/C units
Replace vent fan
Replace all plastic covers on roof (refer vents, pipe vents, a/c covers)
Re Caulk roof openings
Remove nonskid from roof at ladder.
Add wiring for Solar Panels (if wanted)
Rebuild air vacuum system pump
Service Generator, look at radiator mod for 8Kw units
Replace inverter
Replace 110 volt switching relays (2)
Do the sensor lamp modification to the ac panel
Add means to charge engine batteries while on shore power
Add or refurbish electric shoreline and hose reels
Rebuild dump valves and add third valve
Add SeeLevel gauge system
Replace rear Camera and Monitor
Replace Boost solenoid
Headlight and Taillight upgrade
Replace compartment door handles and those latches that are worn
Replace windows if not dual pane, if dual pane repair seal failures
Replace Entrance Door stay open arm
Replace awning fabrics
Full Paint
Tile and hardwood floors, new carpet in bedroom
Reupholster all Furniture
Replace barrel chair with newer style chair and ottoman
New window coverings in bedroom
Install MCD dual shades for windshield
Renew finish on woodwork and cabinets
Buffout all counters
Replace Front and rear TV's with flat screens, rework cabinets
Replace, Microwave
Replace hotwater heater
Replace water pump
Replace Refrigerator with (1)Atwood or (2) Electric, Marine or Residential type
Replace Furnace with Atwood two stage unit
Replace all heat and A/C plastic outlets
Compartment door stay air springs
:o
what is the total is you add up all those costs? Just a bit more than the cost of a new coach?
Tom: It is a long list, however from looking at the posts on failures and other problems over the last 4 years with the mid 90's to 2001 series coaches, this is what people write in about. Granted some items are must do, some are should do, some are somewhat optional and a few are livability items. I have not put a $$ on it, I don't know if I could be accurate with the numbers. However we will spend money on almost all the the items during our ownership years. Even with the money outlay, we would not give up our Foretravel.
Al
Here's my guess:
Parts and materials: $150,000
Labor (at $100/hour): $100,000
Wow quite a list, bunch of $$$$. For me keep up maintenance items, repair obvious problems, add a few upgrades along the way. Then take the rest as it comes at you until you reach you $$ threshold or your patience runs out. JMHO but no way to make a 15-20 year old coach new
Seems to me that some of those items might not break during the entire time you own and operate your RV. My system has been to upgrade items as the mood strikes me or as I find inexpensive alternatives.
Plus you forgot the alternator. :D
Craig
I have to admit that I have done a lot of that; tires, batteries, flat screen tv's, idlers, air springs, shocks, cabinet struts (twice), synthetic fluids, one brake, wheel seals, rebuilt toilet, new refrig, central air, rebuilt dryer, back up camera, bath sink faucet, restrung the shades, fiber glass repair on 3 basement doors, air leaks, adjust engine valve clearance, lubes, oil changes, coolant, gen fuel lines, water pump, and more. Had FOT do the windshields, carpet, and generator insulation and someone else the steering box. Right now working on engine compartment insulation and MCD shades when they arrive. I wrote down all the costs, but am afraid to add it up, probably more than I paid for the coach. Only time I had to fix something on a trip was a ride height valve, forgot to mention that.
"Journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" ;) One day at a time... like any thing important in life, it seems overwhelming and impossible when you try to swallow it in a single bite. Sometimes the challenge (usually, for me...) it is prioritizing the list that is daunting. I guess that is the only good thing about doing a roadside repair... your priorities get real clear! Anyway, If I was to list the work that I have personally done on our coach, I think that I would doubt my sanity :o However, every time we stop at a campsite with hookups or pull up to a dump station, I thank my former self for doing all the work to make it as easy and sanitary as it now is. When I glance down at my VMSPC screen or my HD backup camera, I take a little pride and it makes me smile. More to do? Of course! Some of it is genuinely fun and creative, some is mundanity, and some is just plane gritting your teeth and gettin-er-done. I take a lot of pride in the ownership of our coach, and you can't put a price on that! ^.^d
Don
Don, you and I think the same way as I too do not look at it as a "spreadsheet"
Luckily I as you do the work so forget that 100k tag but if someone wants it all done I will attack it for $150k total!!
JohnH
Well said Don! :D
We live full time in our coach for 7 years now. Some years nothing more than regular maintenance. Other years, big things like air bags, tires, exhaust , oil leaks, leaking radiator, batteries, etc........ Some things I have done myself, other things had done at MOT, Bernd's, and upgrade our couch by Mitch at Infinity. This year it is fuel lines- better to plan that on my terms than be on the side of the road.
Is it worth it?? You bet!!!
We love being able to go where we want ( the southwest this winter has been the place for sure), when we want. Meeting great people along the way like many of you from the forum at Quartzite make this a great life. We will go as long as we are able and will continue to repair and upgrade as needed to keep us safe and comfortable on the road.
Some time back a buyer posted such a discussion and analysis and was comparing buying a newish Phenix versus running repairs as needed on an older FT.
He concluded to buy the Phenix, thinking it more likely to be reliable and costs not too unreasonable.
Why? He cited that at his situation in life, downtime for repairs would be detract significantly from his time to enjoy the coach and travel plans. He bought the Phenix.
Sometimes costs are not only dollars. I do not recall anything other than goodwill wishes by our members. That made an impression on me....lost time or trips, breakdowns are part of the balance if one can afford the options. I figure as some said, i may not have all the repairs and certainly not all at once, but time is very valuable too. You can at times trade money for time.
100% accurate. Thanks for the list. Amazing attention to the threads. Impressed.
If you do your list you have a new coach.
I have lost the last two replies that I typed, now to recap. As many have said in other posts, the Foretravel coach has "very strong bones". Most of the failures we have are to components supplied by third party OEM's. These components have a time life far less then the coach body. If we can predict when they will fail or are about to fail we would be ahead of the game. How many RV's would not have burned if we changed out the Refrigerator after X years. My training was in aircraft maintenance, Aircraft Maintenance is based on time related component replacement and repair and inspection of discovered defects. Thats what allows DC3's to keep flying after 75 years. Its hard to teach a old dog new tricks.
When I turn over the keys of my Foretravel to the next owner down the road, I plan on it lasting the next 10 years. Keep the replies coming.
Al
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This is an interesting discussion. I just checked my records for seven years of ownership. Purchase price: $135,000. Total cost of ownership without fuel: $222,548. In that I include $75,000 in depreciation, which is of course just my estimate(from NADA).
Good luck, keep us updated on how far along on that list that you get, it should help the resale value when you eventually sell, but don't count on it.
Seems like you shouldn't count both purchase price and depreciation in your total.
135,000 + 75,000 = 210,000
222,548 - 210,000 = 12,548 total in repairs and upgrades for 7 years = 1792/yr ave
Understand how you are looking at it, but you are mixing cash and non cash expenses. By taking the $135k as all cost, you have already said your depreciation is $135k, and the coach has no residual value. It can't depreciate beyond $0 value you should not add an additional depreciation cost.
To achieve the costs you have indicated, you would have to buy it for $135k and then you would have to additionally pay someone $75k to take the cosh off your hands. :-) Just trying to make you feel better!!!! Your Actual expense is
Depreciation plus operating expenses. Interest on any loan and lost investment income on the down payment ( or full 135k amount if you paid cash) should also be added into the expense.
Like I said, you have overstated expense by $135k. :-) Total cash out could be $135k plus operating expense plus interest paid. In this case, you would typically not put lost investment opportunity cost (it is s non cash cost), and you would net any residual value recovery on disposal of the asset (coach) Your true current 7 year cost is $75,000 in depreciation plus $12,548 in repairs/upgrades, or $87,548 using your numbers. I would add any consumables purchased during that time (fuel, oil, propane, misc.), any interest paid (if you have a loan), and any lost investment income on your down payment). That is your 7 year operating expense.
Imagine buying a 14 year old house and a 14 year old deisel Mercedes. Then write down everything you are going to have to do to make them like new. Probably nearly the same list and about the same cost as the original post.
We are careful to do normal maintenance and watch closely over those things that will wear out and do them before they fail. Most of the upgrades are optional but doing them is fun and rewarding.
Before we bought our coach we had a travel and vacation line in our budget going forward from before. That line is now mostly used for the coach. We are staying on budget even including our recent visit to Xtreme if you spread that out over the time we expect to own the coach.
It is an interesting thing to try to do a cost analysis like this. Think how many things you would never do if you did this for everything. Never buy a house. Never get married. Never have kids. Never have a great dog, An interesting life is priceless.
Oh, and don't forget when you finally sell your coach the difference between what you paid and all the improvements you made and the price you sold it for is a capital loss for tax purposes that can be used to offset capital gains from other sources.
Don't overthink this too much. Go have fun!
Roger
" capital loss over capital gain for RVs"
Only in US, as Canada does not allow us to claim our coach as secondary (or firstly) domicile. We have to just enjoy the ride so to speak. One of the reasons US people have to pay more on health care etc than we do. Our taxes from everything help pay for services.
Johnh
To achieve the costs you have indicated, you would have to buy it for $135k and then you would have to additionally pay someone $75k to take the cosh off your hands.
I'm your Huckleberry! ! Pm for info to mail keys and check! ^.^d
Speaking of project lists... here is a small sampling of my most current focus;
A few roof projects;
Done;
1. Moving the curbside Hadley next to its little big brother on the street side.
2. 86'ing the old Winegard Sensar antenna and putting on a wide band omni WireNG antenna for boosting 2g, 3g, and LTE Verizon.
3. Removing CB antenna and covering hole.
4. Redoing cable penetraions for Cat 6 and Antenna cable in place of TV Coax.
5. Resealing the Skylight.
6. Replacing the the fridge vent, reflashing the opening, provisioning for Solar cable.
7. Resealing the Kool-O-Matic fan.
8. Replacing both tank vent caps.
9. Cleaning the roof gutters.
To be done;
Resealing the the endcap moldings.
Resealing the sidewall to roof gutters.
Removing the fantastic fan and installing a new Maxxfan Deluxe Remote ventilation fan.
Removing the luggage rack and filling the holes (to make more room for solar panels).
Washing roof.
Buffing roof.
Installing solar panels.
Installing LED clearance lights.
Installing rear air deflector.
Ladder reseal and minor repairs.
By no means a complete list, but at least I can look at this list and not feel overwhelmed by it ;D One thing for sure, having the roof protected from water ingress and the solar working will feel like a nice milestone!
Don
Wow- big list Don. You are making me tired just reading it........... :D
Don, Your roof list looked like mine, I spread out the work up there over two years. Knowing that there will not be leaks makes me sleep better.
Al
Roger, I like your analogy of the house and the car. Having faced the dilemma of doing a complete rebuild of a Mercedes 450SL worth 8K as is or putting 25K into it and then would be worth 12K, I then listened to my wife and donated it to a non-profit and took the donation. Having dumped more money into a house then it will sell for but is now a great home to live in. I find we make decisions based on what we want for our life style and creature comforts. The same with the Foretravel, it allows us to go where we want, when we want with a degree of comfort that was unknown to our parents or grand parents (think wet tent in the rain at the lake). The money we spend on our Foretravel that will never be recouped is just what we need to spend to provided the level of comfort we want at this stage of our lives. RV maintenance as either pay as it fails or before failure or a blend of the two is just the cost of this great lifestyle we get to enjoy
Guys,
You misunderstood my math. I didn't include the original purchase price in my cost total! Everything else but fuel is in my my numbers. I certainly didn't expect to ever recover the costs for FBP, interior remodeling, MCD shades, etc., etc. Other things like new W/D, tires, fuel lines, Generator electrical side, batteries, alternators, etc.,etc. were essential costs. I paid cash for my coach, so I could also include the lost investment gain from the original purchase price, but I didn't buy the coach as an investment.
It just goes to show that over time ownership costs add up to be a considerable sum. We may think we may save money by buying an older coach, but if we compare apples and apples we may be kidding ourselves.
Now does that MOT IH marked down to $499K suddenly look more attractive?
Even the new IH at MOT is way out of my price range, so that is not an issue.
We all need to decide what upgrades, changes, repairs, replacements, etc we need vs want and what $$$ value we put on these.
Living full time in our coach I want it to be safe, dependable, and comfortable, so we can travel this great country.
Some things will only be done once, like refinishing our couch, and we will use it as long as we have the coach. Tires, batteries, maintenance will be done as needed- part of owning a coach. This year I will have our fuel lines replaced at a cost less than what we were paying for property taxes and HOA fees on our place 7 years ago. Good trade off!!
Have fun and enjoy your adventures in your Foretravel.
I stopped looking though I kept the records when I got over 100K on this coach. It is still cheaper then a new coach when I looked at them. I asked FT to build me a 42 foot Nimbus with IFS and a Phenix step and to remove one slide. They said no, if I remove a slide it will cost more and if I want IFS and the step, I needed to buy a phenix. So I bought a 42 footer traded in and gutted it and redid the whole thing inside. I put on new AC units and just did the fuel lines and had to replace the radiator last summer. The Aquahot will probably be the next thing I will need to replace but otherwise I am still well below the 748K they wanted on the new coach that was not what I wanted.
I think the best deal is still the 98-03 coaches that can be redone for a bit more then the purchase price but you will have a coach that will last years.
This discussion started with a "maximum theoretical failure" model that collected all the possible or common repairs/upgrades. If you were looking at an older Foretravel as a Newbie, it would cause concern. Up until August of 2014, we were that Newbie. Drawing on our experience from the boating world and all we could absorb from this Forum, we managed to purchase a 1996 U295 with 60k miles. Our plan was simple: buy quality invest some bucks to ensure safety and reliability, then start with the pretty stuff.
To help those that may come after us, we thought some data points from an actual purchase by raw Newbies might be valuable information. An actual case study perhaps. We drove many shakedown trips and collected a list of repairs based upon actual usage. As of today, we have:
1. Done the usual full service of chassis and generator.
2. Replaced dessicant filter on air dryer.
3. Rebuilt the injector pump (failed).
4. Added third waste valve converting to more common size.
5. Replaced all back flow/check valves (leaky).
6. Tested LPG system and replaced alarm.
7. Added glass tile backsplash, toilet "box" and stairwell.
8. All new toilet valves and seals.
9. Installed reman turbo (cracked) and new turbo boot. PO had a hose on the boot which had the look of someone shooting ether for cold start - yep, that can of ether I found really did mean something.
10. Installed return springs on the throttle.
11. Inverter dead. Installed new Heart 2500 with remote.
12. Pre heat controller replaced, replaced solenoid on preheat system and reconnected broken wires. Should start easier when cold weather returns.
13. Installed remote pull for forward air tanks valves.
14. Replaced leaking air valves on retarder, entry step, front tank check valve and all three front pressure regulator valves (holds air all night with hardly noticeable drop on the gauge).
15. Found the electric switch on back of water heater was off. Hot water!
16. Installed a Blue Sea solenoid to replace the dreaded ignition solenoid that fails at the worst time!
17. Installed a TrikLStart on the isolator.
18. All new house and start batteries.
19. Replaced shore water house on existing reel.
20. Replaced shore power cord on existing reel (looked as if it had been run over a few times).
21. Replace Jack antenna.
22. LED bulbs in all interior lighting (sans fluorescent so far).
23. Replaced power watch indicator bulbs.
24. Replaced with rebuilt Dometic thermostat.
25. Replaced broken windshield wiper arm.
26. Replaced gas struts on interior cabinets and all large bus doors.
Running and driving like a dream. New tires next year. Start with the floor and upholstery sometime this summer in between trips. Parts costs to get "Rocinante" (there's a test for your classical literature trivia) up to road worthiness is right at $10k I paid others to do many things to accelerate the reaching of travel Nirvana so throw another $4k in labor costs.
The PO did full Xtreme body paint, leather and fluted valances, leaded glass cabinet doors, ice maker, basement reefer, headlight conversion, bus doors, etc, so we started with major expense already done. Based on boat experience, we budgeted 25% of purchase price for such things and updating. I don't think we will none far off by the time we put LVT and new carpet in the interior and Reupholster the sofa and capt/co-capt chairs.
I hope this real world case study is valuable info for those that have recently or are planning to buy. And, a really big thanks to the knowledge shared by this group!
Kindest regards,
Alan
"Based on boat experience, we budgeted 25% of purchase price for such things and updating. I don't think we will none far off"
Correction, budgeted $25k not 25%.
Fast fingers- too fast!
I would think priority of these repairs are a opportunity and a curse. Pride of owning a FT makes many of these repairs a non issue. My biggest concern is the cost of some of these repairs coupled with having to repay for the same repair.
The collective knowledge of the forum members is what means the most to me. Without the great people on this forum. I would be lost.
I just spent decent coin at Bernd's shop for repairing what a Cummins "Coach Care" facility screwed up - big time/big bucks. I cannot emphasize enough to all the new folks that it is extremely important to find a reliable/knowledgeable diesel shop and stick with them.
Mark well said. I too had a Cummins shop set the valves and then had to pay Bern'd to redo it. 2of the cylinders that were wrong. That is what really hurts. I wish there was a Foretravel shop in the midwest as I hate driving to Nacogdoches for work
Owning an older coach that is almost fully depreciated but having some maintenance costs can only be called "expensive" if your yearly maintenance costs are MORE than the yearly depreciation on a newer coach + maintenance (because even a 3year old coach requires stuff that has to be fixed...many of it on the original list).
For somebody to say a newer coach doesn't require maintenance is silly. Many things on an old vehicle have to be replaced on a new one too (brakes, tires, oil changes, etc, etc). But I would be much more annoyed if I had to fix stuff on a 5 year old coach vs my 17yr old one that I paid about 1/5 he original price for.
All machines need to be fixed. What is the worst annoyance/danger is being stranded on the side of the road. I see brand new RV's on the side of the road all the time.
A few years back while delivering a 1.5 million provost conversion from Florida to cal, broke down in El Paso. Idler pulley bearing froze
.. 3 days back on the road. This was a brand new unit.
Alan, "Rocinante", I like that, although I am sure the ride will be much smoother than Don Quixote's steed.
Gary B
I am lucky, most everything had been done by careful previous owners. Since I have had the coach (2011) I have not had anything break other than a tail light.
At first I was wondering if the list was a bit paranoid but then you mentioned that you were in aircraft maintenance. I was in vehicles and equipment. Different view point. When my stuff broke it stayed where it was. Yours does not. Careful, regular inspection and repair and replace only as needed will make a huge difference in maintenance costs.
Keith
Glad I do my own work (most of the time.)
If I had to pay todays fee's, I'd have to get rid of the Hans (& that ain't gonna happen.)
90% of the OP list has been done or is an ongoing project.. nice thing to know,
I'm headed down the stretch until something else comes up.
Now, if I could just get the cruise working. pc