I'm not sure how much our radiator is like others since it was custom built by Cummins some years back. Today I was going over the coach attempting to wash the oily residue off (with mixed success) and I found that one of our radiator brackets have cracked. The interesting thing is that the weld itself broke in half. The metal on both sides is perfect, the weld literally split in half. I have never seen something like that in my life.
My current idea for repair is to put a bottle jack under the radiator, drain the coolant, remove the steel bracket and have a mobile welder repair the aluminum bracket. Can anyone find any flaws with that? There is no real fuel or anything else and there is what I feel good enough clearance to not warrant removal of the radiator. A good tig weldier I would think would be quite small and able to work into the space.
I was going over in my head the potential expense here. $3500 for a new radiator, $3000 per fan motor (2), $1500+ for a new charge air cooler. Then all the custom bracketry. That's if all this fell out on the highway. I may have seriously dodged a bullet by looking things over!
Bad weld.
FOT stocks new radiator for my 2001, complete mounting assy, Bo @ Bernds resealed the two fan motors, all good also installed new CAC., new radiator and hydraulic hoses, nice job.
Dave I'm not sure why I would replace the radiator when the rest of it is in good shape. And the broken weld doesn't affect the surface of the radiator either. I don't think my 1999 radiator is available otherwise why else would the previous owner have one custom made?
I do not see a broken weld. the welds on the bracket are intentionally done in a stitch pattern. not continuous.
Look in the first picture. See how the bracket is kind of tweaked? The bottom is pulled away and the top is wedged against the radiator. The second picture shows the gap. That bit of jagged weld hanging out is supposed to be attached to the radiator behind it. The weld broke in half with half of it attached to the aluminum plate and half attached to the radiator itself.
EDIT: I see what you're talking about. Look below that. Horizontal weld.
Looks like lack of penetration. Not enough heat the melt the parent metal on the radiator, understandable for a couple of reasons ..... Maybe the radiator was full of coolant, which may have been a good thing. Maybe the welder KNEW he didn't want enough heat to melt the parent metal on the radiator cause he KNEW he'd catch heck if he caused a leak. JMOO
Can you tell how much weight was intended to be held by that or is it just there to prevent side/side movement?
You should be able to get it welded, if its aluminum make sure the welder really knows how to work with that as well.
That just looks odd to me, but really hard to tell whats going on from a picture. Almost seems like you would want to have the bracket welded to the radiator and then some "soft" mount/interface between it and the frame, like rubber or corded belt etc. Something so you are not directly loading up the end-cap of the radiator. Just a thought since I'm only looking at one small area so I really have no idea.
Piku, on your costing of parts you mention the CAC and it will be around $3500 from FT and about $1300 from maker in Corpus Christi. They also made (if I am not mistaken) the Rads for FT. I cannot think right now of the name but have it in coach but Tim F or Dave H know it as one of them sent me that info. I repaired my own CAC but did talk to them before doing it. It was something like Atlas Radiators.
JohnH
If you just pull the thing together and weld it you will be stressing another part. Make sure that everything lines up and is weldable without any stress. What made it pull apart in the first place? It may be that a plate to fill the gap is needed first.
Keith
I'm having trouble selecting a welder now. I'm trying to find someone who does custom intake manifolds and stuff like that for hot rods because they will probably be excellent.
I could drain the radiator or not. Not sure which is preferable.
It is bad penetration on the radiator. There is still weld metal attached but not deeply. Frankly I wouldn't blame anyone for being ginger on the final stages (end brackets) on such a beast of a radiator.
As for the attachment, it is an aluminum plate with 4 bolt holes. From there the steel bracket is directly bolted. The steel bracket however is mounted to rubber vibration isolators, but there is no going around that this radiator itself holds a lot of weight. All the other stuff is bolted to the radiator.
There was no gap I don't think. The gap is there now because the steel bracket is crooked. If I jacked up the radiator from the bottom it would line right back up.
If there is a gap there now I would suggest that there was something there before ie a rubber spacer/ dampner. Take a look at opposite side to see what that looks like and any rubber. I cannot see it cuasing a gap just because it broke off or the thru mounting bolt is loose and if so I really believe there should be a dampening piece be there and rotted or broke up.
JohnH
Rube Goldberg here again. I see what looks like two bolt heads on the angle bracket that came loose. Are there two more on the opposite end of the radiator? Would it be possible to run two rods--all the way across the radiator, thru both brackets, and then thread nuts on the ends? If nothing else this would cradle the radiator. Maybe put a piece of cushioning rubber between the brackets and the radiator itself to prevent abrading a hole thru the radiator wall. That way compressing the rubber cushions would hold the radiator in place.
Welding/soldering on the very thin radiator wall can be very touchy, and probably wouldn't hold long anyway.
There is a gap because the bracket is cock-eyed. I believe the top weld may still be connected. I think the bottom bracket is carrying all of the weight as well.
The threaded rod idea is pretty good but what would be better is strapping going around the bottom instead of/in addition to these two welded plates near the top. The threaded rod idea couldn't work because the fans are in the way on the other side.
Bleh, Paul Yasbeck won't touch it. He says that the coolant changes the metal of the side tanks and it will be harder to weld to. Also says he's never seen anything like this before (with things welded to the side tanks). No solutions and said his welder wouldn't touch it either. Then he was saying he would weld around the side of the side tank on the back of the plate and that the CAC would need to come out to do that. He was saying that can't easily be dropped out the bottom and instead must have the side door opened which means messing up my full body paint.
The general gist is that too much weight was hanging off of those 4 welds between the radiator, coolant, fans, CAC, etc.
This all just seems too overcomplicated to me. The radiator is 5 years old. It'll probably be leaking and needing replaced on its own accord in another 5 years anyway. Part of me wonders if I couldn't just do some strapping around the bottom to repair it. I mean I could drill 2 holes up through the bottom tray, tie two steel or thick aluminum straps through the holes and up to the steel bracket and problem solved, more or less. There would still be some sideways forces that wouldn't be held.
Looks like the radiator was made by Sunshine Cooling Systems in Lakeland.
Maybe end up pulling the radiator and having Sunshine Cooling weld a new tank up, with brackets on it. Alternatively, maybe call 3M and see if they have any high temp adhesive for aluminum....just a shot in the dark.
My simple choice was to purchase a newradiator assy. From FOT parts complete including all new structure including the two fan mounts, after resealing the fan motors was simple & correct installing with new hydraulic & radiator hose.
Coach has 114,000 miles, felt if every 114,000 miles is required, so be it. Dependability is key with me, not the easy red neck Engineering cheap short cut that would leave me hung up along the road broke down.
Why I do the happy thing.
My coach has full body paint and I took the side panel off to get CAC out- very easy to do and trim goes back and hardly see any change from original. This to me is the sensible thing to do then working on rad or taking it out is simple too. No one has ever said "oh my goodness you have taken panel off after paint job!!" Its only paint.
JohnH
If I take the panel off I could do 3 out of 4 sides of the aluminum bracket welding. It'd be stronger than before and before got me this far... I would replace the radiator if it was in worse shape overall but it's not. It'd just be throwing money away for fun.
So, what's stopping you doing that???
JohnH
Nothing really other than the first welder I talked to (Paul Yasbeck) saying "noooo way I am touching that" Aluminum is tough to weld competently from what I read. The radiator is expensive.
I know it is a pretty big job but why not pull the radiator and find you an oilfield radiator shop. This is an everyday thing in the oilfield not a big welding job for the right person.
Pamela & Mike
I would forget trying to reweld this, it's p-poor design anyway, hanging a radiator from a cold two inch weld on the tank. Sheesh. Support it from below, possibly clean between bracket and radiator and j-b weld it if it makes you feel good.. Maybe make a couple of ears that bolt thru bracket out of aluminum angle, that would capture the radiator and prevent rocking movement. Be glad the weld broke instead of taking a chunk out of your rad which is what I would have expected.
I'm 20 miles from Corpus if you want to replace, will be happy to swing by Atlas if you have info enough to spec rad. Let me know.
Welding aluminum is not that hard IF the area is clean and prep work done, but, having said that I second Chucks idea of mechanical support. I would first remove the panel and CAC (simple job to do) so that you can do a proper figuring of what support is needed. I can tell you it would only be a days work to have it done start to finish (as long as the needed parts are close by). This is one of the easier repair jobs to do on our coach's. I repeat myself-take off that panel and life becomes easy!
JohnH
I'll probably look into pulling the fuel cooler, oil cooler and CAC as well as the panel. It doesn't look that hard. Thanks for all the suggestions! I got in touch with Sunshine Cooling and they are looking at my photos. I just have to make sure they have room for me to park.
"I'll probably look into pulling the fuel cooler, oil cooler and CAC as well as the panel. It doesn't look that hard."
I'm in the process of having my radiation pulled for the second time in a month. Removing the radiator took a journeyman mechanic and his helper 4 hours (both times). This included removing the CAC, fuel cooler and the hydraulic cooler. The radiator is very heavy since it is made of copper, not aluminum. You will need a heavy jack device like a tranny jack to lower the radiator. Also, you will have to drop the radiator straight down, so you need to lift your coach more than can be provided by the air bags. You can get a good feel for all that needs to be done from Barry's write-up on his radiator replacement which can be found here:
Radiator Replaced on a 2003 U320 Cummins M-11 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/radiator_replaced_on_a_2003_u320_cummins_m-11.html)
While I consider myself a very handy person and do much of my own work, there is no way I would tackle a radiator removal.
While I'm referring to a 2003, I would imagine it is basically the same as for your coach.
Our radiator is definitely all aluminum. It was custom made by the people who (hopefully) will be repairing it. And the point isn't to remove the radiator but to remove stuff near the radiator so that the weld points are accessible. I wouldn't be dropping the radiator itself.
I think the place that made the radiator is going to fix it. Hopefully. They haven't called me back but they should be qualified to weld it since they weld a bazillion of them per day. The picture attached is my solution to get the coach there... Before you laugh, they are 2 1100lb ratchet straps, the first of which had no trouble lifting the radiator assembly and taking the weight off the bracket. The second one is just for safety. The only risk is if it walks off the bottom of the radiator (or worse breaks off the drain plug) but I'll be pulling over often to check. There is not a lot of lateral force at all so it hopefully it will stay put unless the whole assembly bounces all over the place.
I believe now that the top weld never broke on the bracket either, only the bottom.
Rube Goldberg would admire your fix. ^.^d
That should get you there. Red neck engineering at it's finest! :) Good luck with the repair.
see ya
ken
Appears it all went wrong starting with the Cummins shop that started the Rube Goldberg circus, this is exactly what I wanted to avoid and why I purchased the complete assy. from FOT Parts, had installed by Bo @ Bernd's, did not remove any panels, but did drill out the rivets holding the grille so the fuel cooler could be removed, then dropped the entire assy. down and out.
Mine was not leaking, but had lost a large percentage of the fins on the inside and the hydraulic motors were leaking slightly, so was all rebuilt, new hoses etc.
I now sleep comfy and can worry about other issues as they come down the pike, but this one is done.
Dave M
Who made the radiator.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe there are significant electrical precautions to be taken before welding on our motorhomes. The issue is to avoid frying sensitive electronics in the engine module, etc. Can someone elaborate?
The radiator shop decided I need to remove the radiator so my fix isn't going to last very long. I am deciding right now whether to tackle it at our "service friendly" campsite or ask Paul Yasbeck to do it. I need to get a feel for how heavy the radiator is empty. It is all aluminum so I suspect it is manageable when drained.
One good note, when the radiator was removed and the end tanks removed, the inside looked NEW, no signs of acid, build up of sludge nor rust. Was pleased the care I have taken on the cooling system looked so good once opened up. The secret is, I have done nothing except maintain coolant level with the recommended ELC coolant.
On our 2001, MOT installed a radiator with what i will call with a frame already attached and on it. That total unit was heavy, i watched two guys and some kind of small lifting device help move it into place. It was supposedly a direct replacement unit but they found that one support bracket at the rear of the coach had to be modified a bit. They removed the side panel but when replaced i saw nothing that needed repainted.
The removed radiator, in my parlance, simply seemed to have deteriorated around the end caps. One leak led to the discovery but when fully visible it seemed to me a leak could have become a massive failure, the coolant running out all at once. I probably over thought that!
I do wish my coach side panel was hinged like later models so i could inspect and clean easily.
Our side panel is hinged and the coach lifted on the bags enough to come out the bottom with the safety blocks in place. They used a big transmission jack.
Mine (2002) has a bracket that surrounded the radiator and supported it. I dont know when that changed.
Does anyone have any advice on removing the radiator side panel? We don't have the hinge like some people do. The current plan is to drive to the radiator shop and remove the radiator in their parking lot, something which they said would be fine to do. They are going to repair the radiator for free. They said the radiator is all aluminum and weighs just under 150 pounds. I am thinking with the access of the side panel removed plus I have a floor jack and blocks I can probably get it out if I'm careful. I'll just need a piece of wood to support the bottom.
But in order to remove the side panel I'll have to slice the paint and remove the screws but what is underneath? Bolts or is it bolted from the rear? I see rivets from the side. If anyone has pics of the assembly removed that would help me know how to attack it.
To me it doesn't seem like an insurmountable task. Besides the side panel there is only the fuel cooler oil cooler and CAC in the way. There is tons of clearance to get to all brackets on either side, possibly because we have a tag axle.
I don't think yours changed. Cummins put a custom radiator into the coach for a previous owner.
I wonder if this 450 lb. Low Lift Transmission Jack (http://www.harborfreight.com/450-lb-low-lift-transmission-jack-61232.html) might help with the job. I have to make a Harbor freight run before I do the job anyway.
I just went out there and looked again. It looks like the best way would be to drill the rivets holding the grill to the side panel. Then drill out rivets/remove screws holding the sides to the fender/rear cap, then remove the bolts that point upwards into the body. Not sure about those. Then I assume I need to pull back the trim in order to slide the frame out. Once I have all that out and remove some other bits I should be able to rotate the CAC out and make it work.
I feel like you have left us hanging :P ... any update on progress, were you able to get the side panel removed? Great to hear that the shop was going to repair the rad it for free ^.^d
I got lazy. Then I got sick. The whole family has the worst cold/flu ever. We're a week in and yesterday I sneezed so hard I gave myself a migraine. My poor son was a vomit fountain for a day. It's the kind of cold where you lay down and the pressure on your sinuses is so bad it feels like a 30 pound cat is sitting on your face. We're at Fort Desoto right now. My "special fix" is holding just fine. My thought is to wear out our paid reservations until May and then do the work then.
In the mean time the flex connector for the exhaust broke :-P LITERALLY always something. A low hanging branch also tore the antenna off for our wilson sleek so had to order another one of those too. Parts arrive tomorrow to clamp the two good halves of the exhaust back together. I am going to fix the exhaust with a sealing repair compound and a band clamp. The break is clean and not rusty so I think it was just a stress crack that spread. It should hold for quite a while until I decide to redo the exhaust with a flowmaster setup.
I am still curious if anyone can comment on whether the large bolts that go up into the walls are required to be removed to remove the fenders/radiator side panel. I'm just going to dig into it and hope for the best but I hate doing things without a manual.
Sorry, I should have chimed in a while ago on this removal for you as I have done it when I took the CAC out to repair it.
First use a sharp blade to cut thru' the paint and caulk along the trim strip and remove that strip at the joints (it may be a long piece)
If you have the same vertical trim piece we have that covers the end cap joint you need to take the lower part off. Mine is held together with the lower section with another strip behind so once those screws are out you may find a short trim falls off the back-no worry. Under the trim strip are some bevel head philips screws that do the holding of panel. You also have to remove any screws on both vertical ends of panel and there may be some underneath that hold some belt shield in place. Just take all these off and the odd strenghtning bracket screws.
This should allow you to lift panel off and put aside. If you have the small cooler on CAC remove all bolts and place this rad' aside. The CAC is held by bolts and first remove the large clamps that hold the air tubes to it and this CAC should just lift out. It is not heavy but have someone help as it needs a bit of moving around to get out. The radiator is now open and easy to remove supports etc etc as needed.
From start to finish it should only take around an hour or so. The replacement is just a reverse of this. Really very easy, just make sure you have all screws etc out before pulling on panel. This is also an excellent time to clean and protect all the parts you cannot get to when all is assembled.
Hope this helps.
JohnH
Exhaust fixed. Turns out I fixed it with what was there and broken. It traveled down the exhaust and I didn't realize it at first. That was a nice 5 minute job.
So we're at Sunshine Cooling and I started to remove the radiator and I have to say, the idea of removing the side panel is just plain dumb. The rivets are ridiculous and do not want to come out even after being drilled out. I scratched up my paint just to realize the best way to get the radiator out is straight back. I took off the rear "foretravel" skirt and a single bar and viola, enough clearance to slide the radiator. Even if I got all the rivets out I am not sure that panel will want to come out. It is stuck fast to the docking light on the one side and there is a lip on the other side so it almost looks like it has to be pulled straight down to come out, something which does not look like it wants to happen.
So I just drilled the rivets for the grill and pulled that for some accessibility.
If anyone has any ideas for finishing up those rivets I am all ears. I drilled the ring off one side and on the other side there is a washer like appendage which I was able to pry off some of them. This still however leaves a metal tube firmly stuck in the middle. I suppose I need to use a bigger drill bit but I'm really trying to not tear up the fiberglass.
Got everything out and then they told me the welder called out sick. Oh well at least I have my house with me!
" and I have to say, the idea of removing the side panel is just plain dumb."
Well I guess it comes down to skill of using the right drill etc. Those panels are simple to take off and give lots of access to the area, but whatever suits you I guess!
I replaced the rivets with the spring clips that slide over the edge of the fibreglass and then used a stainless screw so the grille is easier to remove in the future.
FWIW
JohnH
MAXCRAFT 7728 U-Clip and Screw Assortment, 170-Piece - Hand Screw Clamps -... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0042D6HSA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
This kit was very handy when I replace all of the rivets.
Those are the clips I was referring too (in previous post).
JohnH
Regarding removing the side panel, stupid may be a poor choice of words but still, bringing it out the rear was far less of a pain for me. I drilled out the rivets on the grill and removed just the grill for accessibility and it worked out well.
Actually those screw clips would work fine. I used rivets again. But bringing it out the rear is far less invasive, especially if you have full body paint. A lot of paint trauma despite a lot of careful attention. The paint just wants to chip. It might be because my coach was repainted that it is so odd but the way it is put together in the rear with the fiberglass - that panel is NOT coming out without breaking things (unless it is pulled straight down and I have no pit).
The welder fixed our radiator. He found poor penetration on the weld that broke. He explained to me that the original welder used the wrong kind of welding rod and focused on the bracket more than the side tanks right around the center point. The bracket that broke is longer than the other one so it had more leverage. There were actually several more cracks/breaks and he fixed them all for lunch and beer. Didn't even ask for that, I had to insist.
The transmission jack was pretty slick. As careful as we were, when we were moving the radiator and transmission jack assembly, we had to remove the straps to actually get it in place. The jack hit a small pebble or something, one of the wheels locked and the radiator completely and fully smashed right on the ground. I couldn't believe it. I really hate to admit that but I'd rather put out a cautionary tale and nurse my wounded pride. Bent the drain plug but otherwise looks unharmed. It's a rather beefy assembly. I brought it up to 180 tonight with no leaks or problems but didn't move the coach yet so fingers crossed still. Disassembly with the exception of the side panels was FAR EASIER than reassembly. Getting those heavy fans, trans cooler, etc to all line up and bolt in took 2 maybe even 3 hours. Fishing the top bolts blind kind of stinks. Again, our setup is custom so it might not be Foretravel normal back there. The radiator has nutserts that all that stuff mounts to. Two were spinning but we fixed those while it was out. There wasn't a ton of debris stuck in the fins but there was some and we cleaned it up.
All in all my verdict was - it's done, I didn't run into anything insane, but I should have paid someone else ;) Around 12-14 hours total labor I think for me as a first time effort.
Oh and for whatever reason, Foretravel's constant use of those Rolok style fasteners that just thread in without having a nut in the back just rub me the wrong way. I don't know why, they seem fine but I find it so odd.
We also pressure tested the CAC. Zero leaks :)
piku,
I understand there are many ways of skinning the ole cat, just wondering after looking at your pix, seems your radiator is very different from my 2001 model, mine in rubber mounted, not solid, am wondering if this is due to creative fabrication by Slim when the original was replaced ?
My replacement was from under without removing the panel, just the grille for access to the hydraulic cooler.
Hope it works & lasts for you, just wondering why the solid mounting.
It's not solid mounted. There are steel L shaped brackets that bolt to the 4 hole bracket on each side. Those are mounted to the rubber isolators just like a normal atlas radiator would be.
Great
Also mine could have been removed from the bottom if I had more clearance. Maybe even as is actually, but I certainly would have scraped it up and had a tough time managing it myself on the transmission jack. If i had 1 or 2 more able bodied individuals maybe I could have done it that way.