Second attempt at this post - first one disappeared during adding photos part of input - Used Siri to dictate this into an email, cut and pasted email into the post, edited the post - way faster than typing all this.
As I write this I am at Hickory Oaks RV Park in Oshkosh WI. Last night I attended the Cirrus pre Oshkosh party in the Eagle hanger - we were joined by Cirrus owners including Ken Griffey Jr (no Angela Jolie was not in attendance, but Dierks Bently was and he gave the crowd of about 600 a private 45 minute concert - all good!)
Well I expected to be writing up and adding pictures of the outcome of my 32 Coach Buck Nacogdoches Texas economic stimulus event, but first an update on m journey north from NAC to Lake Geneva, WI.
This post is about the trip home from NAC and the left front blowout that occurred on my coach while driving on a two lane rd. about 27 miles south of Poplar Bluff Missouri. I was heading north on Route 67 at about 7:30 AM doing between 55 and 60 mph when the left front tire exploded without warning. Thanks to the video posted on the forum I didn't immediately jam on the brakes (nor did I accelerate as suggested in the forum video.) The noise and coach vibration along with vibration in the steering wheel was pretty intense but at no point did I feel that the machine or situation was out of control.
Actually I started slowing fairly aggressively once I realized I had total control and pulled across the oncoming lane of traffic (since there was no one coming in either direction) onto a large gravel parking area from a closed business and came to a slow stop. At the time I was towing a 19 foot center console boat on a trailer without trailer-brakes.
I got out to look at the damage done when the tire left the rim. The tire took out the left front fender (except the portion that holds the docking light). The edge of the fender (when leaving the coach) also forced open the bay door aft of the left front fender. It did not do any damage to exterior of the bay door but did rip the latching mechanism from the inside of the doors. At some point during the event I also developed a crack in the lower left-hand corner of the passenger windshield.
Within an hour Rabens Tire from poplar Bluff Missouri came out and installed a new tire (275/80R 22.5 XZA3+ Load Range H) on the left front of the coach. The tires on the coach had a date code of 1007 so they were just over eight years old. Frankly I have been planning on replacing the steer tires when I got back to the Chicago area at my friends store, Waukegan Tire and Supply.
Once the blown tire was replaced I drove to Poplar Bluff and got five more load range H Michelin's. Of course I used the FMCA Advantage program, that was very simple to set up and no problem getting it all arranged.
The guys at Rabens tire went to swiftest and somehow managed to damage three of the 10 studs on the left front hub pulling them free so the nut won't tighten on the hub for those three studs. Luckily they were not next to each other, so I drove home on 7. FT quote about $80 a STUD!!! Hope to get them locally and have all this addressed up here without a trip back to NAC.
It also took Raben's Tire a very long time (almost 3 hours!!!) to put on the other five tires. Who knows how long it might have taken if I hadn't raised Cain and threatened to leave with just new steer tires. They spun balance all six tires before installation and the ride home was smooth and uneventful. Take a look at the attached pictures.
The new tires have a date code of 2015 so sometime late May they were produced and they're already on my coach. I guess eight years is too long especially with wintering in the Florida climate (although they were covered all the time that the coach is not moving).
All in all, it could have been worse.
ouch. I'm riding on noname generic 2007 tires as well. I inflated them to 110psi and took it on a 85mph spin to see what would happen, all is well for now, but I should probably do the replacement thing soon.
Tim,
Glad you were able to control the coach in this emergency. Wonder what happened. Did you have a TPMS?
Thank God it wasn't any worse!
Coach were buying has same age Toyo's Current coach is two th three years newer. If all goes well there will be new tires all the way around on our new to us 320, by the fall.
How many miles had you logged on the old ones?
I had the almost exact same tire blowout years ago but with a set of new tires. Yes, pulled off and stopped it quickly. Lots of vibration. Replacing the front tires while not as secure as all six is still better than driving on old tires. Could also have been a road gator.
Here are a couple of bus blowouts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emQjReXML-c
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnMH0b_-n8
But the best (or worst) for last:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHCccVDg_hc
Pierce
Well, I did not have TPMS, but had only been under way 15 minutes after checking air pressure prior to lift off from Wally World. 110 PSI when I left - don't think i would have had warning with TPMS, don't think I hit anything - probably age and sidewall deterioration
just edited tire size to 275/80-22.5, not 225.
I put about 50,000 miles on the tires - tires were two years old when I bought coach - not sure what miles or care they had in those two years.
I would have looked inside the failed tire for evidence of rust on the steel belts under the thin rubber coating over them.
Unless you struck something rust is one of the few ways to fail the tire.
Using the coaches air hose as far as I know uses air that has had the moisture removed.
I bought some Mylers tire mounting grease for my future changeout so as not to introduce any water into the tire.
The Michelin stuff if memory serves me is mixed with water.
Dry nitrogen, dry air, no water in mounting lube is safer.
Used to examine failed Rv tires as Foretravel manager and almost all had rust inside of them back then. Rusted through the steel belts. Seeing this it stuck in my mind forever.
Using coach air requires the D2 valve to be the 110-130 range one to bring up the air pressure enough as the 90-110 is not enough.
Last thing is to weigh the coaches axle and put exactly the proportional amount required of air pressure IMO.
Buy a tread depth gauge and measure your tires new and every so often to check wear patterns.
I am paranoid about water vapor in Rv tires. Trucks wear out tires. Ours rust or time out IMO
Load range h on the front might be close at 110 out of the 120 max but the rears would be too high. 100?
Glad the damage was not more severe. Pays to have thought it through before it happens. I think that you would have noticed a front tire loosing air so it was probably a blow-out at full pressure and a TPMS would not have helped.
Keith
Seems like the blowouts that I hear about are all Michelins ? Why is that, just that many Michelins in service or a fault in Michelins ?
Gary B
Good point. Are the other tires used steel belted? Or non steel?
Probably a good example why you should put new tires on about every 5 years
Glad you're OK and damage is not toooooooo great. ;D
A year or two ago, I was hearing that it was Goodyear tires that were having a disproportionate amount of tire failures... I think the model was the G670.
Don
I wonder though that since the TPMS also typically has a temperature monitor (and a settable alarm), whether that would have given some notice of a developing problem.
Don
Glad you are OK, Tim. Scary thinking about a blow out. My tires will be six years old in Nov. New tires in the spring for me. And the mystery remains.
Roger
My bad in not expressing gratitude for your safe landing Tim ... Some things just don't go without saying. After all, your largely responsible for us becoming a part of the Foretravel family... Also, what a bummer not being able to just give us the big reveal on your secret remodeling project, and instead having to report on this harrowing tire shredding experience!
Don
Tim,
Is this the great reveal I did not see yesterday? :)
Trent
Nope, it is the "prequel"
Matt,
70mph is recommended max speed for our tires.
75 is what michelins chart says
That' still less than the 85mph Matt ran.
Tim,
Glad you guys are okay and you were able to control the coach and slow down safely to get off the road. Sorry for the damage but could have been worse like you said. 55 to 60 is a much safer speed to manage a blowout than 70 or 75. Did the other tires show any signs of deterioration when changing to the new set? I just finished a 600 mile trip on a set of 10 year old Michelins without incident checking the tire temps at each stop. I know I'm rolling the dice.
Pierce,
What new brand of tires were you using and how fast were you going when your blowout occurred? Was it summer or winter if that makes any difference? The videos are a good demonstration of blowouts whether moving fast or hardly at all.
Jerry
No, they all looked great, and probably would have went many more years. Got $0 for casings, since over 7 years old can't be recapped. I think optimum replacement age is 6 years
Michelin says 75. Any coincidence that is faster than any legal commercial vehicle speed limit on the road? They need to put a number down. So they did. I see plenty of semis that work 5 days a week at the drag strip on saturday on the same commercial tires we run on going 120mph. I see dump trucks going 80-85 down I95 in the morning.
Do you have any proof of a max speed other than one column on a michelin website? Id love to see it.
If you went 70 across the 10 interstate in Arizona you would be trampled by the big rigs going the legal speed limit of 75.
110 degree. 75mph continious for 300 miles at max load. Seems to back up the legally libel manufactures public spec page?
No crashes. I assume some are running the best lasting big rig tires from Michelin? 220,000 to 280,000 miles are the normal reports on the Internet.
I personally did five hundred mile stretches at 90 mph on old Michelin 10r/80?/22.5's on a 1987 ORED 300 cat. But that was in the winter so maybe it does not count?
Done 50 thousands of miles over the manufacturers speed spec long ago.
Half the fun. Not recommended btw. Do whatever you feel comfortable with.
My old Foretravel customers loved me as I tested every suggestion personally on my nickle and my neck on the line.
Do not go faster than your info and comfort level tells you to.
Glad you are ok!
Tim, Glad you came to a safe landing. (I've driven through two front tire events and don't like the experience.) Also pleased that you kept driving the beast to a "controlled stop" when things got exciting.
We have shadowed your pretty coach from shop to shop in Nac for weeks. Now I learn that I'm chasing your rig to Lake Geneva! Staying there for the ILYA Championships. All the best! Paul
Fastest I've gone is 83. Driveshaft starts to vibrate at that speed now with the 4.33 gears. Before the same vibe came in about68mph. I normally cruise 70-75. Last tank was approx 8.3 mpg with maybe 20 hours of gen time on pretty flat ground towing dolly+tercel
Gary, That is my observation as well. The tire expert at Lazydays told me that they have the thinnest sidewall for a smoother ride but are more prone to blowouts.
Mark
Probably the biggest reason I like stiff sidewall radials. We still have a nice ride even at max pressures.
Long off season storage with less than recommended pressures and high weight set any tire up for failure. Compressed airbags during storage don't do them any good either.
Pierce
My understanding of the differences that I researched long ago was that there were two designs used in being able to control a vehicle after losing tire pressure.
One is thick sidewalls like the toyos have.
The other is the one Michelin uses that shreds the sidewall thin rubber so the rim comes down flat on the tread belt.
The results shown in the picture here match my old info. Destroyed tire but driver maintained control.
Unless overloaded or top heavy, any Foretravel with a halfway sharp driver that has not been drinking should be easily control any blowout. Will take the thick sidewall anytime. At less than $300, Alcoa wheels are dirt cheap compared to glass/body damage.
Not kidding about the drinking. Good percentage of RV drivers and pilots have a drink or two or three late in the day.
Pierce
Unless overloaded or top heavy, any Foretravel with a halfway sharp driver that has not been drinking should be easily able to control any blowout. Will take the thick sidewall anytime. At less than $300, Alcoa wheels are dirt cheap compared to glass/body damage.
Not kidding about the drinking. Good percentage of RV drivers and pilots have a drink or two or three late in the day.
Pierce
Cm fore told us at the unihome introduction that the suspension and settings were specifically designed around the Michelin's side walls and driving feel.
Like the Europeans do is what he said at the meeting.
Country coach switched to toyos on their first independent front suspension coaches to try to help a wander issue.
I think the michelins have been oem ever since?
The Europeans have a wide choice of tire brands with the sidewall stiffness depending on the speed rating. Many cars there are capable of cruising at 150 mph and are mandated to have at least a "V" rated tire. In the case of Michelin tires, the tires fitted to cars with a lower top speed were much lighter and more flexible. The V rated tires that came OEM with the new S class Mercedes we sold were very heavy, had a thick side wall, were super sticky even in the rain but paid the price in faster tread wear. They were like magic on a wet road. Now, some vehicles can approach or even exceed 200 mph on the Autobahn so there are higher letters to designate the maximum speed. The higher the rating, the stiffer the tire. Here is a chart with the latest speed rating designation in the U.S. or abroad:
SPEED SYMBOL SPEED MPH SPEED KPH
M 81 130
N 87 140
P 93 150
Q 99 160
R 106 170
S 112 180
T 118 190
U 124 200
H 130 210
V*(VR) 149 240
W**(ZR) 168 270
Y**(ZR) 186 300
Many new cars in Europe like Mercedes and BMW are electronically limited to 156 mph. Without extensive chassis modification, the occupants would not survive crashes at higher speeds. (not that they would at under 156 mph.) At high speeds of about 150 mph, the tire will go from an unloaded shape to a loaded shape and back 35 times a second. This causes the maximum weight as stamped on the tire to decrease about 20% at these high speeds. Translation: better not have too much luggage or passenger weight if approaching the car's maximum speed.
The V rated Michelins were my favorite tire and we made sure all the new S class came with them. I have translated the sidewall thickness they had to RV use and feel more secure with a thicker sidewall even though it may give a slightly firmer ride.
Pierce
Pierce,
You have said 3 times (in this thread) that you prefer "thicker sidewall" tires. Since you are apparently
not talking about Michelin, what brand name tire
does incorporate this feature? Is it the Toyos mentioned above, or some other brand?
I also had a blow out at 60mph on 59 north hear in east Texas this past weekend. The temp was 98 deg. the dot age of the tire was 9 yrs. the tread was real good. The side wall was cracking some. It blew out and the FT slowed and I steered it off to the side with no problems. The side wall that blew out was on the inside, so no damage to the 93 U240 at all. The LORD was with us and at 6:00pm Saturday afternoon, I bought a r9x22.5 tire in Nacogdoches. I did not believe it when I saw the NEW tire that had a dot date of 2405(10 yrs old). We had it mounted on the FT on the side of the road by road service for only $50.00 and drove home with no problems. I looked at the tire this morning and if I did not look at the date code, I would think it was made this year. I also looked at the blowout tire and the steel cords were rusted. So I think it was not the rubber failing but the rusted steel belts that failed.
Chuck,
Michelin and Goodyear make RV tires with a different spec than normal truck tires. It could be for a variety of reason. Extra UV protection, softer ride, better life with long storage periods, etc.
A lot of truck tires have a little stiffer sidewall. We used only Cooper on the FD and our U300 came with a set. Toyo tires are a little stiffer. Best to talk to a high volume truck tire shop for their opinion. Bus companies are also good. Bridgestone has a reputation for excellent casings.
Wish I could say more but while I have done a lot of tire selection in the past, now it's only an occasional set. All my information about the V rated Michelins was from about 30 years ago. Like computers and cars, tire technology changes so good to talk to some independent truck tire dealer for the 2015 scoop.
Moisture in the tire along with long off season storage may have a lot to do with rust as in the above post.
Pierce
My take on the Michelin tires that most put on their coach's is that generally speaking (now this does NOT include all of the knowledgable people on this board) RV' ers are like sheep "they follow the crowd" because if Joe Blow is doing it then it must be good. Now, with FMCA giving them the passing grade and pushing that Brand only then of course why should it be questioned as to the road worthiness etc of Michelin??
I spent many months and emails asking Truck tire shops from Phx to here what they thought would give the best service and safety factor. Pheonix Tire said Toyo and the outlet over the Border here at Les Schwab said the same. Bridgestone was highly recommended here at Kal Tire and when I tried to get Toyo's here in Canada I finally spoke to the Rep' in Ontario and he said they do not have what I want for at least 6 months but the Firestone F95 was the closest one to the Toyo 147 which I have on the front.. I look at the tires on every truck that stops alongside me on highway and Firestone-Continental and Toyo are the ones on majority of them. I personally think that Michelin are not the best but the most expensive soft ride in town that can come with a big bang!!
IMHO
JohnH
John
I can tell you I sold TOYO's for years and they are awesome tires. STuck in nowhere MO, the only load range H tires in my size available were Michelin's, so that is what went on the coach. Would put on Toyo's any day
Yeah I know, sometimes the timing is just not there.
We had a situation a few weeks ago on a small Island off Vancouver as we were looking at Ocean front Property to buy and just before getting to the ferry terminal Ruth's CRV fuel pump packed in. Well the part had to come from another Island and the mechanic was not going till 2 days later and of course guess who has to pay his ferry ride etc. The guy was fine just that we now had to pay for 2 extra nights at the B+B and the repair which was on the heavy side to say the least. That fuel pump finished up costing over $1000 all things added up and if it had happened at home I could have done it myself and cost of Pump (from same dealer as he got it, but our local branch) was $75.00
Go figure.
JohnH
The reason I'm running Michelins is they came with the coach..
When I'm going to replace them, they will not be Michelins (unless someone is giving them away.)
Toyo (then Bridgestone or Goodyear) is my pick for a steering axle. If you cannot find them, wait until they can be located.
Decades back, Goodyear Imperials were the steering axle tire of choice with the Class 8 guys I ran with but in the last couple of decades the Toyo's have gotten the respect of most OO's (owner operators) that can afford to buy a quality steering axle tire.
Buy a higher (more capable) rated tire, it only hurts your pocketbook.
Motorhomes are typically front end heavy (plus 12,000 lbs.) MH owners get away with it because they don't have to stop at scales.
When it's a hot day, keep an eye on your steering tire temps. You would be surprised how hot they will get in the summer months.
Slow down and enjoy the ride, especially in hot weather.
I've never had a steering axle blowout (ever) in over forty years as an OO.. (knock on wood.)
You can't adjust steering axle weight with a MH..sad fact.
I've never run a Michelin on anything but a four wheeler (for good reason.. IMO.)
When someone passes me in a MH whistling down the road,
I get a tight feeling in the seat of my pants (especially in SUMMER.) pc
PS.
TIM, Mercy.. I'd hate to have gone through your experience. I hope its made you a tougher traveler.
I just stopped at the scales. 9520lbs up front and 19,060 rear. Full fuel, water, propane, all my crap. Glad to see the front is a bit lighter than i thought.
John,
Yep. Also, Bridgestone has owned Firestone for a while. Never heard a bad word about Toyos. Bridgestone has an excellent article about off season storage weight loads and recommended air pressures.
Another reason to have a spare is Tim's post above. Too easy to ruin a tire in some obscure town with no replacement to match with only donkey express to get it to you.
Pierce
Six Michelin XZA3 lr. H installed four years ago. Two have been replaced, one with a sidewall knot which was warrantied, one with a sidewall blowout not warrantied. These tires are rated for much more weight than my light U295. Toyos will most likely be the next set though I will look hard at Hankooks. Had a set of V rated on a BMW roadster which were great tires. Given my once every two year blowout program, I installed a Safe-T-Plus to hedge a bit. Nice benefit to directionality also.
Chuck,
Not including you here so please don't take offense. I know I have posted this before but off season storage can have a lot to do with keeping tires in the best possible shape with less worries about tire failures while enjoying summer trips. Making sure the coach is at minimum storage weight, keeping tire pressure at recommended storage pressures on the best type of surface and using jacks to take off at least some of the weight off the tires will lower the possibility of an incident spoiling a trip.
Pierce
Check to make sure you don't have a hung caliper. The additional heat could have sent it over the edge. Honestly with that damage I would consider myself very lucky and had a good day.