Foretravel Owners' Forum

In preparing for our coach's battery transplant from 2 MK 8D GEL's to 4 (East Penn/Deka/ MK) O'Reilly Super Start AGM8D's, I have been doing some homework regarding the care and treatment of these big boys. To recap what I have found out about the origin of these, East Penn makes their own labeled line and slaps on different labels for at least three other lines: MK MK Battery | 12 Volt 245 AH Deep Cycle AGM RV & Marine Battery (http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/rv-marine/agm/8A8D.html), Deka http://www.remybattery.com/Intimidator-8A8D-Group-Size-8D-AGM-Battery-P4436.aspx
and O'Reilly Super Start AGM8D http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SSBL/AGM8D/N2493.oap?ck=Search_N2493_-1_-1&pt=N2493&ppt=C2389

If anyone has corrections or additions to this list, I am all ears! Also, feel free to check my math or question any of the parameters that I have put in there. I figure that there have already been several forum members who have gone this route (in particular, sourcing their 8D AGM batteries from O'Reillys due to easy availability and cost savings). In non-commerical use (my reading of it), O'Reilly Super Start heavy duty AGM8D batteries have 1 year free replacement warranty with no pro rating afterwards, where as Lifeline apparently has the free one year replacement as well as prorating up to 3 years, albeit, at a significantly higher out the door price. The Lifelines also have a slightly higher 20AH rating @255AH VS. 245AH for the East Penn family. Are the Lifelines better batteries? Probably, but maybe not enough better to justify the significantly higher cost in the eyes of some (me at least!). Besides, the battery technology I really wanted was the LifPo4 Lithium, but I had to conclude that now wasn't the time for it. For us there would be to much opportunity cost of doing other essential upgrades versus the resources I have available. For  about $1,700, choosing 4 AGM8D's to reduce the depth of discharge cycles while still being able to boondock for extended periods of time seemed to me to be a good value proposition. To cut to the chase, I got these charging specifications and definitions from various East Penn documents, Solar/Off Grid Forums, Sailing forums, etc.

As an aside, I will add that I also had a bit of training in battery technology and maintenance from the navy, though there were no such things as AGM's and GELS in use there at the time. The ground crew used flooded lead acid batteries and the aircraft side used nicad batteries. I had training in both, but only worked on the aircraft side. The Nicad batteries were handled much like the LifPo4 batteries are today. They were comprised of individual nominal 1.25V cells bused together and contained in an outer case to make the 24vdc batteries (IIRC). The charging was done by very complex and large chargers which had a probe for each individual cell while monitoring both temperature and voltage with alarms to avoid the dreaded "thermal runway". Current LifPo4 technology is quite similar with a BMS system (Battery Management System), with a best practices to have a monitor on each individual cell, but is sometimes done on pairs of cells to cut costs and complexity. Enough said on that!

Anyway, I have made myself a cheat sheet of sorts to aid in the charging setups for our fairly complex system of a Solar Charge Controller, Magnum MSH 3012 Hybrid Inverter Charger, as well as a (sort of) stand alone Sterling 40amp marine charger used to balance individual batteries in combination with my Solar 1000 amp carbon pile load tester (Solar in this case is the brand name, and has nothing to do with solar power), and when this project is finally done, a Sterling battery to battery charger or perhaps the Sterling alternator to battery charger and maybe one or two more devices. The cheat sheet is as follows and is also included as a pdf attachment below... looking for comments, corrections, and suggestions.
Thanks, Don

AGM Charging parameters mostly from PDF http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/1913.pdf
East Penn/Deka/MK AGM 8D = O'Reilly Super Start AGM8D

1.) Bulk Charge (Max 73.5A @ Max 14.4vdc) C20 = 245AH
30% of C20 @1.75 volts per cell (12V = 10.5V @ 1.75vpc)
Charge Current @ 30% of C20 is .3 X 245 = 73.5A @ Max 14.4vdc
Max Time (Hr) = Ahr x 1.2 / Avg. Current (A) - Voltage limit equal to Absorption (Regulation) Stage limit

2.) Absorption Stage (Constant Voltage)
2.35 - 2.40 vpc (14.1- 14.4vdc)
Charge until change in current < 0.10A per Hr / Max Time: 12Hr

3.) Float Charge (Constant Voltage)
2.24 - 2.26 vpc (13.44 - 13.56vdc)
No Time Limit

4.) Equalize Charge (Constant Voltage)*
2.40 - 2.43 vpc (14.4 - 14.58vdc)
Charge until change in current < 0.10A per Hr / Max Time: 12Hr

*Note that what East-Penn considers an "equalization" is just an elevated absorb voltage, ie 14.4 to 14.6, and NOT anything over 15 volts.
Temperature Coefficient = -3mV/cell/°C1
1 Minimum charge voltage limited to 35°C (95°F), Maximum charge voltage at 15°C (59°F) Voltage Limits shown based on 25°C (77°F)

How many charge discharge cycles have the two current AGM's gone through?

All four were bought within two weeks of each other and the two already put in the coach haven't had any in use discharge cycles yet as we haven't used the coach and it is hooked up to power.  The resting voltages are all within 2 100th's of a volt of each other (12.91 to 12.93vdc). This is after load testing each, charging with a three stage charger at the rates posted, and voltage checked the resting at least 12 hours.

Perfect. 

Not sure if NAPA is having the Second Saturday Early Bird 7-9AM 30% Off Sale in your end of the country??

Here in Houston, I'm waiting for Aug 8..  $400= a deal on an AGM battery.. (I'll have 2 BTW.)
Yes, it is the EAST PENN Battery (Gel, AGM or Lead Acid)..  pc

Do you have the NAPA part number for their AGM 8D battery?

Is this the battery you are looking at?
Deka 8A8D AGM Battery - 8D Marine Battery (http://www.powerstridebattery.com/deka-8a8d-agm-battery)
Their list on it is pretty high, only about $25 or less than the 8D Lifelines. Still, $400 apiece is a great deal, the same as what O'Reilly sells them for with the 10% military discount. Without a special discount of some kind, O'Reilly has the best price by far @ $449 ea. You just have to deal with the know nothing parts guy and give them their own part number (AGM8D), or they'll never find it. Then of course, there is basically no information from the O'Reilly website as to charging parameters etc. I don't know about Napa, but if it is branded as East Penn, Deka, or MK, you can at least be sure that you have the right info on the battery specs. At O'Reilly's, you have to do some sleuthing to work it out and trust your own assessment... which is why I wanted to make an (hopefully) informational post about them and then let the wisdom of the (FoFum) crowd vet the information. Anybody have something to add? ;D
Don

Have to agree with you about the o'reilly 8d agm, online no information, had to go to store and special order. Bought 4 over
a years time. Waited till I received an o'reilly discount card in the mail, and used it to buy for about $410 ea. Stupid me, forgot
all about the military discount. Nice thing about o'reilly's is they will take anything for a core. Had an old office ups with 4 ah
batteries in it, and they took a 2 lb battery for the core trade on a 8d.

Good point about the core... I turned in one of my old red tops that was completely gone when I bought the first of 5 of these AGM8D's to replace the two defunct Red top Optimas (One 8D equals two of the Optima Red tops in size, somewhat less cranking amps than the two combined red tops, but simplified the cabling and the thing spins like a top at start up now and never did with the two red tops). Got my $22 core charge back ;D Also, you get some O'Reilly rewards back. When I bought 3 of the 8D's at once, I got $150 back to spend at O'Reillys. You have to use it all at once unfortunately, but I had no trouble loading up with stuff to use the $150 ;)
Don

I have two 8D AGM batteries for the house. I just went out to look, and I can't see any label that says how many AH they have. Anyone have an 8D accessible to find out? We're talking about adding solar panels some day.

Every 8d agm I have every looked at is between 210 and 250 amp hour capacity, or this
is what is on the label. 2 8d's with enough panels and a good inverter should be enough to
run a frig or freezer.

What brand are they and what color are they? The all grey Dekas and MK's are Gel batteries made by East Penn. The AGM's made by East Penn whatever the brand label are grey with a black top. The Gels are rated at 225AH and the AGM's are rated at 245AH. Whatever the brand, if they are 8D's and AGM's they are probably at least 225 with the max I have seen at 255AH (Lifelines). The actual capacity would have to be tested if you want real world numbers. New batteries take several cycles to reach their full capacity.
Don

Don... thanks for all that information in one easy-to-search spot here. :)

We're still running wet-cell 8Ds in our coach since our use is just weekend camping with one longer trip each year until the DW can retire in 2017. At that point I'll decide whether to go for AGM or LiFePo. The solar charge controller we bought (Classic 150) is pretty easy to configure for any type of battery but if I go to Lithium I'm not at all sure how to deal with the engine-driven alternator. Maybe just let the solar panels do that job all the time.

I'm watching this tech closely as it seems like the wrong choice can turn out to be expensive. So, for that matter, can the right choice. :P

Craig

Don, mine came from O'Reilly's, and are grey with black tops. Craig, not only are they expensive, but they are also heavy. Take your coach in and have the young guys change the batteries for you.

Are you sure that these O'Reilly batteries are actually deep cycle batteries?  The ad seems to make them out to be starting batteries.

Here's the label on the O'Reilly AGM8D battery, in case it helps answer any questions:

These East Penn manufactured AGM heavy duty commercial batteries are advertised in various ways depending on the label that is slapped on them. They aren't a true deep cycle battery as near as I can tell, not like Rolls-Surrett, Trojans, etc.. However according to East Penn, they have excellent deep cycle characteristics, (Brochures below) and also have good starting capabilities (1450 CCA). If the specifications are accurate and the 245 AH @ the 20 hour rating is correct, then I believe that they will make excellent house batteries. In fact, I have bet over $1,700 on that assessment. I am not recommending that anyone else do the same, that is up to each persons assessment of the information. Why I wanted to post the information that I have come up with is to basically crowd source the wisdom (or lack thereof) of my conclusions and see if anybody can add to it or offer information that counters my assessment. Ultimately, I hope that time will show this purchase to be a good value. I know that house battery banks rank pretty high on the priority list of many, if not most coach owners and so I hope that posting this info will aid others in making their decision. Every single specification published by East Penn lines up exactly with what O'Reilly's has on their website. Additionally, I researched online who made various lines of batteries for the house brands and what I found corroborated my conclusions. I am not just going by the fact that the case is identical in appearence. Most significantly, every single metric regarding temperature, reserve capacity (Reserve Capacity @ 25 amp discharge rate: 517 mins), cold cranking amps (1450 CCA measured at 0º F), marine cranking amps (1800 MCA measured at 32º F), etc. So the fact that O'Reilly's doesn't tout these batterie's deep cycle capability doesn't concern me as that is in the specifications, though the webpage does state that the battery is suitable for "Starting and heavy cycling power". But all this is just my assessment and so anyone contemplating going this route needs to weigh the pros and cons of investing in something that hasn't been specifically advertised as appropriate for the purpose they have in mind for it. I do it all the time, and it is true that I have been burned by inaccurate specifications at times in the past. By and large however, I have benefited by going the "off label use" route (to borrow a phrase from big pharma) over the course of my life to come up with creative solutions for thorny problems.
Don

Thanks. 

Here is where you can download the spec sheets for the MK Deka batteries, if they are the same as the O'Reilly's.

MK Battery: RV/Marine Products (http://www.mkbattery.com/rvmarine_products.php)
http://www.mkbattery.com/images/8A8D.pdf
http://www.mkbattery.com/images/8G8D.pdf

Of note should be that the MK Deka 8D AGM has a lifespan of about 750 cycles at 50% DOD (depth of discharge).  The 8D gel is about 1000 for the same.

A FullRiver 8D DC260-12 deep cycle battery has about 1300 cycles for the 50% DOD. Fullriver Battery DC260-12 Product Information (http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC260-12)

Just throwing some information out there for you.

Thanks for adding some useful info to the thread! The full river battery specs even better than the Lifeline by a smidgen or two, but shares a similarly high price. Three of these would have cost about $400 more than the 4 of O'Reilly's/MK/Deka/East Penn, but may still be a good value and if I was doing blue water cruising, I would  probably spring for something like this. Nice to be able to find an O'Reilly's-Napa-Autozone type place on the road and replace one of these East Penn Variants in short order, and relatively cheaply. Just my opinion... If money were no object, I would have sprung for a LifPo4 option for sure. As it is, I anticipate sometime in the next few years, I will do that anyhow and I think the current set of AGM's will still have lots of life left and will be repurposed or sold. Interesting times we live in...
Don

Don:

Also considering new AGM house batteries. I have the Progressive Dynamics 9280 charger and pendant:

Progressive Dynamics 9280 (http://www.progressivedyn.com/prod_details/rv_conv/rv_converter_pd9280_2.html)

Pendant (http://www.progressivedyn.com/prod_details/pendant.html)

It doesn't seem to have an AGM setting (at least that I can see). In the research you have done, do you think I will need a more advanced charger, I was hoping to stay with this one. I have 2 house batteries, so theoretically the highest rate of charge would be 40 amps per battery in the "Boost" mode.

NAPA PN 9275 (AGM/8A8D)
PN from Troy Steerling (East Penn/NAPA Rep in Houston) 832-888-3399

Which battery charger? 
After I visited with Trojan, East Penn, etc., etc;
they all suggested the 12V-10AMP INTERACTOR was the charger to have (until someone comes up with a
better design.)  This charger was designed with/for Wet & AGM style batteries and had internal DIP Switches that need to be set to 14.1V if the charger is to be used with a GEL type battery ($149.99.)
 
Additionally info after visiting with a Lifeline Battery wholesale source. 
Unless you were full timing, the East Penn AGM battery was a better choice than the Trojan AGM FWIW.  pc

The MK engineer last year mentioned that penn had changed the plate mounting inside the battery and expected to double the cycle life's of both the AGM and Gels.

He mentioned getting numerous calls from us foretravelers with 10-12 year old batteries already.

Their was a change date but he did not have it readily available but it was around two years ago?

Peter,
I had a quick look at the PD charger and pendant and it doesn't appear to be suitable for anything but flooded lead acid as far as I can see. The Desulfation Mode when the charger is put in storage mode would be an AGM or Gel killer. Battery type setting aside, having the ability to adjust the charging voltage and current gives you the ability to charge almost any battery if you set them up right. Batteries are just too big of an investment to take chances, IMHO. Check out the Sterling ProCharge units. In addition to 11 or so preset charge profiles, there is one custom setting you can program as well. While not cheap, they are much less than anything else with that degree of flexibility that I have been able to find. A commercial member of the forum, Alan at Bay Marine supply, generally has a ForeForum discount. I have found him to be very willing to help with information and if he doesn't know the answer about a product he sells, he knows who to call to get the answer and is happy to do it.
Here is a link to the one I bought... Alan has a pretty informative video that he made himself showing the operation and features of that line of Sterling chargers.
Sterling ProCharge Ultra 40 Amp Battery Charger | 0 (http://baymarinesupply.com/store/electrical/chargers-inverters/sterling/sterling-procharge-ultra-1240.html)
Don

I looked at the warranty info for that part number on Napa's website (you need to download the PDF to read the fine print!), and though it mentions a 2 year warranty which at first blush sounds better than O'Reilly's 1 year free replacement, the pdf indicates that this part number (9275) is prorated after just three months. You almost need to be a lawyer to figure out what protection you have, so maybe I read it wrong but something to take into account...
Don

I called Progressive Dynamics and their tech support told me a jumper can be put on the board that drops the voltage 0.4 volts to make the charger compatible with gel batteries, but the charger is fine for wet and AGM batteries without it.

Is it possible to avoid the desulfation stage with the PD charger? Even thought the voltage might be fine (Different specs by different manufacturers... not all AGM's call for the same voltage, though most are fine with the the flooded settings), I would be very careful about the storage setting that bumps up the voltage for short periods to stir up the electrolyte! Most of the AGM/Gel literature that I have looked at say that is verboten... though I don't have a handy reference to prove it. Maybe 15 minutes per day wouldn't hurt, but AFIK, only the pulse type desulfators are safe to use on Gel or AGM batteries, and there those who question the value of that. I wish I knew for sure...
Don

Don, In my case, I don't leave the charger plugged in for extended periods, so the desulfation should not be an issue. Definitely a good thing to be aware of for any PD charger owners out there.  Thanks for all the good battery discussion, I think I will try to get a couple of AGMs soon, as soon as I can afford it.  :))

I thought that without the pendant the desulfation mode on the PD chargers didn't come on. Maybe someone has some definitive information on that. I'll worry about all that when I decide which battery types to go with. I only (!) need two 8D size and if I go to Lithium I'll need to pad th area as lithiums are much smaller.

This is a terrific thread. Many thanks for all the ideas.

Craig

Over 3 yrs ago I bought 3 Lifeline 8ds from AMSOLAR when the first panels were installed and with the solar controller they have been working very well. I did do some changes as noted before (copper Bus Bars for equal charge etc) and each battery has a Pulse type Desulphator. I never have to think about them being charged and I have no reason to believe they are not doing what they are supposed to do. The system was not cheap but much better investment than having an Aqua hot to replace or service.
When away in coach we live off these batteries daily and have  paid for themselves by not paying to plug in and pay RV Park rates etc. This has made for a much more enjoyable use of our coach and we are able to go pretty much anywere we want. Very small output for so much gain. Price of 3 or 4 of these things is equal to less than 2 months(or less) of sitting in a boring RV Park plugged in!
IMHO
JohnH

Have to agree, spent some time up north boondocking, never started the gen. once. Used propane for fridge and stovetop,
but toaster, microwave, coffeepot, tv, stereo, fans, etc., all off batteries and inverters. Solar panels and big engine kept everything charged up fine for the whole trip. Only problem with living in the south, is that you need gen or shore power for ac in the summer.
100f. again today in Houston.

Jim

Craig

I pulled out my PD manual and it states that the 9200 series converters all have the "Charge Wizard" controlled charging module built in. The Charge Wizard constantly monitors the battery condition and has 4 operating modes - BOOST, NORMAL, STORAGE and EQUALIZE. EQUALIZE is 15 minutes of BOOST every 21 hours. The Pendant provides temporary manual override of the operating modes, and has an indicator light to indicate the mode of operation. The converter will return to the automatic modes when the battery charge status changes. It's interesting that the secret Gel battery jumper is not mentioned anywhere...

Here is the manual online PD9200 Series Manual (http://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/109821F%20english.pdf)

So the PD will probably still work ok for AGM batteries but if I move to LiFePo I'll probably have to move to a more configurable charger/converter. The other alternative is to simply let the solar panels do all the house battery charging all the time. I may also move to Brett's idea of installing marine-type battery switches to make sure I know what devices are charging what batteries. Two of those should do the trick.

Thanks. :)

Craig, I have solar do all the charging as I have inverter charge switch off all the time even when I have the coach plugged in at home for 120 if I am doing some work and need the power.
John

I have the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 9160A charger.  It came with the coach when I bought it in 2012.  I added the Charge Wizard Pendant on the sage advice from Dave Head.  The 9100 series chargers are not smart chargers until you add the Charge Wizard Pendant to automatically adjust the the converter output.  It will stay in Normal Mode (13.6v) all the time when plugged in.  The Charge Wizard gives you the 4 operating modes:  Normal, Boost, Storage, and Desulfation.  The manual states:

Normal Mode - Converter output voltage Is 13.6 VDC.This voltage maintains your batteries while the RV is being used and 120 VAC is available from the shore power or the RV generator.

Boost Mode - Charge Wizard automatically increases converter output to 14.4 VDC when it senses your battery is heavily discharged.  This mode will recharge your battery to 90% of full charge in 2-3 hours which is about 300% faster than other products.  After your battery reached 90% of full charge Charge Wizard automatically returns the Inteli-Power 9100 series converter to the Normal Mode to safely complete the charge.

Storage Mode - If Charge Wizard senses no battery activity for approximately 30 hours, it selects Storage Mode and reduces the converter output to 13.2 VDC.  This maintains the charge on your batteries and prevents excess gassing and waterloss.  The Storage Mode allows the RV to be connected to 120 VAC power continuously without worrying about overcharging.

Desulfation Mode - Automatically selected every 21 hours while Charge Wizard is set in the Storage Mode and increases the converter to 14.4 VDC for 15 minutes.  This mode prevents battery stratification, sulfating, and loss of capacity (useful life).

The PO of my coach was not pro-active on maintenance of the batteries.  I found where he did replace the house batteries in 2007 with Interstate 8D-XHD wet cells.  Without the Charge Wizard and no maintenance they lasted 5 years.  I replaced them with another set of Interstates purchased from Firestone.  With a $100 Firestone discount and 6 mo. no interest total cost was $310 for both of them!  They weigh 123lbs. but I can still muscle them out of the battery compartment without slide trays.  I pull them out once a year and test the cells, water level, clean connections etc.  I also wire brush, rust treat and paint the compartment.  I also added a Trik-l-Start to the house batteries for the chassis batteries (Optima Blue Tops) which keeps them maintained.  So far all is good and I expect a much longer battery life this time around.  My battery requirements are not heavy because I don't full time yet and I can only take a couple of trips a year.  When the time comes I will add solar and probably go to AGM's, etc.

Jerry

Here's a video from PPL on Inteli-Power 9100 and 9200 series.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4R_9dn4nKs

For what it's worth I had a 45amp progressive dynamics with the 3 stage charging built in (without pendant).  I watched the voltages and it definitely went into temporary high voltage equalization mode once or twice a day.

EDIT Now I see that many have also indicated the 9200 series has that built in with or without pendant.

This topic certainly has my attention. I have a Prosine 2500 inverter charger which states in the manual that it has a setting for either Gel or flooded type battery.  I think I have AGM house batteries (all grey, top and sides) nothing on them to indicate brand that I could see; and the starter batteries seem to be AGM red top. 

Now the house batteries need replacing as there are waves in the plastic body on the sides, although the "battery minder" does not say "weak"  when pulse charging as it does hooked up to the starting batteries.

So, if when I take out the house batteries and find them to be AGM, it is then OK to replace them with AGM?  or should I go with GEL and find out how to put the setting on the prosine to "GEL"?

LIFELINES where I'm at are just under 1200 each cdn.  Trojan about 750,  (8D's) and MCA Chinese 650 which claim just under the lifeline specs.  I'll be replacing 3 8D's for house batteries and 3 red tops for start, so would appreciate your thoughts.  We fulltime but are most often hooked to shore power. After reading the thread I'm not so sure I should not wait till around an O'reillys even with the poor exchange rate.  Tom

How many amp hours can you get out of your house batteries before your generator autostarts?  That's the key measure for house battery replacement.  You can go with AGM's if you feel you've gotten satisfactory life from you current ones.

The all grey house batteries are MK Gels made by East Pen. The AGM versions have black tops. If the cases are really bulging, there may be a problem. If the cases are just a bit wavy but not cracked or breached, it may not be a problem. The only way to tell for sure is load testing a fully charged battery isolated from the battery bank. They may be at the end of their useful life without a dead cell issue or internal short. In other words, running out of amp hours.

The choice to replace with Gels or AGM's is up to you. Gels have a better deep cycling capacity than typical (East Penn) AGM's, but are harder to come by and a bit more costly. I happen to think that AGM's made by East Penn under whatever lable are a cost effective solution and that is why I bought four of them. In my view, the trick is to simply avoid overly deep discharges, or more than 50%. My target is no more than 25% depth of discharge, which is why I bought four new batteries even though our coach came with just two. With four 12v 8D batteries to share the load there will be no need to go as deep into the discharge cycle overnight.

When LifPo4 (a lithium based battery, but not the same chemistry as the ones in laptops or phones) comes of age, I will repurpose the AGM's I just bought (assuming they last long enough) and go that route for the much better deep cycling off grid capability with half the weight. It could be done now, and from a numbers perspective, may even be cost effective over the expected lifetime of the batteries. But I would have had to forego too many other upgrades to justify it just now.
Don

The li-ion stuff is the long term fix.  Some bus converters are using two northstar li-ion already.

$6k retail each.  No voltage drop until they shut off.

The Mk guy mentioned a life doubling change in the construction done several years ago.