Here's the short version. Always carry at least one spare fuel injector, a service manual, tools (duh), enough oil to change your engine oil, and a new oil filter would be nice too.
Here's the long and emotionally painful version. While driving at slow speed I noticed a vibration that only happened while I was stepping on the accelerator, so I figured one of my fuel injectors was messed up. I was in the middle of nowhere on a Sunday afternoon so I continued with intentions to fix it later when I reached my new duty station. I work for the National Park Service and I just transferred from Glen Canyon national recreation area to Bandelier national monument. I stopped at WallyWorld to restock my groceries and during my customary preflight check before leaving I noticed a little oil spot under the crankcase breather tube. Foretravel uses the "Silver" 92 engine which doesn't leak oil like the old green Detroits did, so any oil spot under the engine catches my attention. I gave it some thought but didn't put the two symptoms together due to lack of experience and kept driving. The engine ran more roughly the further I went and soon I noticed the oil pressure needle bouncing as low as 20 psi. This distressed me greatly so I found a safe place and pulled over to check things out. I could see oil and vapors coming out of the crankcase breather and the engine was running rough, obviously with a dead cylinder. I shut the engine off to check the dipstick and found a very high oil level and it was badly contaminated with fuel. I decided to camp there for the night because it was a safe location completely off the highway in a truck weigh station the state no longer uses. The next morning I called for road service at 6:30 am and then waited all day long for the tow truck, which finally got me to the garage at 8:30 pm. I made the insurance company call the garage to verify that they really would change the injector on a two cycle Detroit Diesel before they sent the tow truck out. Never never NEVER allow your road service to tow you to a garage without first verifying that the garage really will fix your rig. Once the tow truck disconnects you have to pay for the towing to another garage if the first garage doesn't fix your rig. The entire second day was spent trying to get the garage to take the valve covers off and see what parts needed to be ordered because I knew they wouldn't have the parts in stock. One of my fuel injectors cracked and pumped fuel into the oil. They didn't get the valve covers off until after the cutoff time to order the parts, so I spent the third day waiting for parts to arrive. The fourth day was also spent waiting but the garage failed to inform me that their mechanic who knew all about two cycle diesels went on vacation so now they were waiting for someone to come in and teach them how to replace the injector. The fourth day they decided they did know how to replace the injector but they broke the hold down clamp on the injector while torquing it down. They couldn't get another one so they welded that one back together and installed it, tested it, and let me go. I wasted a week because I didn't have a fuel injector with me. The garage was Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service in Santa Fe. The people working there are very friendly. The owner was unbelievably rude to me, so much so that I pointed out to him how he had undone all the efforts of his entire crew. They completely gouged me on the parts and probably on the labor too. They charged me $1,000 for the injector, which they purchased from Stewart & Stevenson. I called Stewart & Stevenson and they quoted me $600 for that same injector. Filter Barn has that same injector for $200 with no core charge as near as I can tell. Hal Burns charged me $110 per hour plus tax which brings it to $119 per hour for labor. My total bill came to $2,640 and all I really got out of it was an injector, an oil change, and an education. Hal Burns wrote on my invoice that they broke the part but welded it back together and that they won't warranty that part. I asked about that but the owner got so hateful that I just paid the bill and left. I was about to say / do things I would be ashamed of and I'd like to think $2,640 isn't enough to be worth that... although I still said and did it in my mind... (sigh) ...Anyway, if you have the two cycle diesel in your U300 an injector change is super easy because you've got a DDEC engine and you don't have to do a rack adjustment like the older two cycle engines require. There's a special little tool that's used to set the height of the injector but it's possible to set the height with a caliper if you're careful. You do need a long wrench or cheater bar to turn over the engine crankshaft by hand, or perhaps a remote starter button that clips on the starter solenoid. If your injector cracks and leaks fuel into the oil you'll need 7 gallons of oil to do an oil change, and a clean oil filter would be nice too, but you can change just the filter later when you get back to civilization. I was told that cracked injectors aren't normal and that I'll probably never have this problem again. More often the little o rings leak fuel into the oil, so you should probably carry the little o rings too. There are tiny o rings on the little tubes that cross over above the injectors and there are bigger o rings on the injectors themselves. The new injectors come with the bigger o rings so you shouldn't have to buy those. To identify which injector or tube is leaking, change your oil, take the valve covers off one at a time and start the engine and watch carefully for the fuel leak as you let the engine idle very briefly. Don't let the engine run any longer than you need to because the leaking fuel will contaminate your new oil you just changed. Surprisingly there's very little oil slinging around when the engine is idling. I was thinking it would be like my Chevy small block V8 and make an oily mess running with the valve cover off. You will need a foot pounds torque wrench to install the new injector. You'll need standard tools, not metric. Preferably 1/2" drive sockets and I think a deep offset 1/2" box wrench or distributor wrench to reach one particular bolt. You'll need a feeler gauge set. I was watching the mechanics and making mental note of what was needed. I could have been on the road again the following morning before the tow truck arrived if I had that injector with me and I knew what I know now. I had everything else I needed with me including enough oil to do an oil change. I intend to purchase a full set of new injectors from Filter Barn or someplace affordable and change them all. I'll keep the new injector Hal Burns just installed as my spare. My friend who worked on the two cycle diesel boat engines at Glen Canyon told me after about 100,000 miles the injectors are starting to wear out and if I replace all of them together I'll see a noticeable improvement in power and fuel efficiency. I still need to order the service manual. The garage didn't have the service manual and the one mechanic who was on vacation was the only one who'd ever changed an injector on a two cycle engine before, but it runs fine and it doesn't leak fuel into the oil. I think if those guys could change the injector without a service manual or previous experience that I would definitely be able to change one beside the road with the service manual, especially after watching the other mechanics change one. When I do change the injectors I'll change out that part they broke and welded back together... So do yourself a huge favor and always carry at least one fuel injector and the other stuff you need to change it on the side of the road... I hope this helps someone who doesn't have a week and $2,640 to waste. :(
Interesting story Scott, I wonder what the change interval is on a Cummins.
Thanks, Scott, for the words of wisdom. Sorry to hear of your troubles, but glad you're back on the road.
It would be nice if we could carry spare parts for every possible scenario, but that is probably not practical. I guess you have to consider the cost of the part, how hard it would be to source the part if broke down out in the boondocks, and whether or not you would have the capability of changing the part yourself, or would need professional assistance. As you have demonstrated, simply having the part on hand could be a great time saver, if nothing else.
On your 2-stroke engine, does it require a special tool to pull the injector? I know our Cummins C8.3 does..so in addition to having spare parts on board, you also have to consider the specialty tool requirements of your particular power plant.
Just in case anyone is curious: Larryb - DODGE CUMMINS Cummins 12-Valve Injector Puller, 1994 to 1998.5 (http://www.fostertruck.com/dodge-cummins-cummins-12-valve-injector-puller-1994-to-1998-5.html)
I don't know if there's a prescribed change interval for any diesel engine. That would be a question for the manufacturer. It's possible low sulfur fuel may shorten the life of injectors but my friend said that hasn't been demonstrated to him in real life yet, only in "snake oil" advertisements. He did say the two cycle Detroit injectors are starting to wear out at 100,000 miles and that he's absolutely sure I'll see a noticeable improvement in performance and fuel efficiency if I replace all of them at once instead of one at a time as they wear out. The only special tool needed for the two cycle engine with DDEC is that little thingy they use to set the injector height, but they did it with a caliper instead and it runs just fine. I can't tell any difference in the smoothness of how the engine runs as compared to how it ran before this whole ordeal. Remember, these guys had never done this before and they didn't even have the service manual but yet it runs fine now with no fuel leaks in the oil. I think most people could change the injector on a two cycle Detroit with DDEC on the side of the road if they had the injector, the little o rings for the tubes, standard tools they should be carrying anyway, the special little injector height adjuster thingy would be comforting to have, and enough oil to do an oil change. The only physically challenging part is turning over the crankshaft by hand with a long cheater bar. I suspect a remote starter button hooked to the starter solenoid would work too so you can just bump the starter motor slightly a few times. If you have to turn the crankshaft over by hand it's a lot easier if there's someone on the top to watch the rocker arms move while you turn it. It would be time consuming to turn it a little, come back inside to check the rocker arms, then go back out and turn it a little more and so on. The service manual will explain the procedure. I'm gonna order one before my next road trip. Maybe I'll photocopy the pages and post them so people can see that it is possible to do this on the side of the road if you've got the injector... Unless you've got a week and $2,640 that you want to waste? ...I think injector problems are the most common malfunction in diesel engines so it really makes sense to carry at least one with you at all times. If your injectors are wearing out you might want to carry a full set and change them all together when the first injector quits.
I have friends that have spent more time fixing detroits than I've been alive. Anyway, the past 10+ years they've been getting bad injectors right out of the box even from detroit. So, be just be careful of what you buy.
Perhaps that's because most every bus, boat, fire truck, generator, submarine had a Detroit 2 cycle in it and many still do. 3.5 million of the them built, 700K still going with Mercedes turning out new 8V-92TAs today. Many of your products are delivered today by a locomotive using a giant Detroit, the EMD-710 (710 cubic inches per cylinder-16 of them), considered to be the most reliable locomotive diesel ever made. CAT now controls EMD so they must consider it a pretty good deal.
How many Detroit 2 cycles have dropped valves?
Scott, just buy a Pro-Link 9000 and for half the cost of one injector, you can test to see exactly how they are working in real time, check about 40 engine operating parameters and adjust some. Total fuel mileage plus trip fuel mileage are easily brought up on the screen. All while sitting in the driver's seat. In checking 3 U300's, I have yet to find one with a weak or bad injector. Another member also has a Pro-Link and his injectors all look good. This instrument separates the wives tale fiction from the real world. Money is better spent adjusting the valves than replacing injectors.
Pierce
All I'm saying is the "cheap" injectors may not be worth it.
2stroke medium/high speed diesels had their time. Back when fuel was cheap and noise didn't matter. Repower a 50foot boat from detroits to modern cummins or cat and the difference is amazing.
http://www.baydiesel.com/assets/pdf/Night-Falcon.pdf
That is one good example of a repower. If you put a lot of hours on an engine, a four stroke engine makes a lot of sense for emissions, consumption, longevity, etc.
I like detroit two strokes, but I would never own one these days.
OK, check your fuel mileage from new. We have averaged 7.9 mpg over the life of the vehicle using the DDEC computer data, not owner recorded mileage. This is mountain driving not plains states. The torque is greater and at a lower RPM than a 8.3 and the 6V-92TA is redlined at 2100 rpm not the 2200 of the Cummins. The complexity of the engine with so many parts as well as the assembly time made it not competitive with the newer engines but where price is not an object but performance is, makes application like the Coast Guard use it in the ocean bar aluminum rescue boats.
When is the last time you saw a CAT in a new highway truck. Not in California.
The two stroke advantage: http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/powerproducts/media/PProductsBroch.pdf
Pierce
Knowing the USCG is a government and military entity, I would bet that their bureaucracy and over-specification-ism is what has them still using detroits. Oh, and the fact that they are special and don't have to follow modern emissions rules that us common folk must follow.
EVERY, yes every, sportfish boat that has been repowered with a 4stroke has had significant improvement in all performance parameters. The detroit series 60 vs a 8v92 is not even a fair comparison to the 2stroke!
If you want a quick way to find out which cylinder is mis-firing just take the temperature with an infrared non contract heat gun at each exhaust manifold stub where is exits the engine. Lower temp = mis-firing cylinder. I had a mechanic supervisor work for me that just spat on the manifold and the one that sizzled the least was the bad one. He could barely read or write but was one of the best mechanics I ever employed.
Keith
Scott,
Sorry to hear about your bad luck. Hope all that fuel in the crankcase did not cause extra wear. Maybe an oil analysis would tell if anything is amiss.
Something similar happened to a Buick V8 I owned many years ago; bad gasket and diaphragm or both allowed the fuel pump to pump gas into the crankcase until the engine stopped. After repair it worked okay but thru a rod not long after. Diesel is a better lubricant than gas. I hate delivering this depressing news and hope the Detroit diesel hasn't been harmed.
I asked about the fuel in the oil damaging the engine. Three different diesel mechanics who are very familiar with 2 cycle Detroits told me it didn't do any damage and that it happens frequently. The mechanic who took the valve covers off couldn't believe how clean I got the engine. He said a lot of guys put fuel in the oil intentionally to clean it out, but he had never seen one that clean before.
I climbed up over Blue Mesa on route 50 in Colorado the other day at full throttle the whole way and cleared the summit, and also the continental divide, exceeding the posted speed limit and not smoking. If I ever encounter a four cycle coach that can do that I'll take my two cycle engine to Stewart & Stevenson and have them turn up the horsepower to whatever it takes to beat any four cycle coach, but I'll never have to. I measured the turbocharger of a Series 60 the other day and it was a full inch smaller diameter than the turbocharger on my Series 92, and of course the 92 also has a roots type supercharger in series with the very large turbocharger for compound compression. A Series 60 is one serious engine. It's not like a little Cummins 8.3 liter. I have accumulated a bit of experience smoking million dollar four cycle coaches on high altitude climbs. I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe four cycle guys when they try to tell me their engine is superior, so please just stop. I almost didn't post this thread because I knew it would turn into another four cycle / two cycle argument.
Krush, bring your U270 up here to high altitude so I can smoke it up a steep mountain pass... I'm calling you out.
That'd be a fund race, but you'd probably win. I believe you have more HP than I do. I've owned a 6v92 DDEC. I still own a 4-53. The 4-53 always starts right up and runs great. It's a super little engine, but it's LOUD! It'll run forever though. We're glad you like yours so much.
Another cause for diesel in the oil is the crossover pipes that feed the injectors. Often, monkeys overtighten them and crack the flares. I think there is a "new style" that is stronger.
You likely smoke the big rigs going up the hill because they weigh much more than you. Also, I learned this from my rear end gear changes---gearing matters greatly. The problem with only have 6 speeds (or 4, in your case??) is that the engine makes peak HP at a certain RPM and has a pretty small power range. 2200 RPM is where my 8.3 can make 325. Anything below that, and available HP drops off. This means for max hill climbing speed I need to be at 2200rpm. Well, this is right about 60mph in 4th gear (now that I installed 4.33 gears). I probably could go faster up some hills if I had more gears....but the jump to 5th gear causes too much of an RPM loss. A 10 or 13 speed would really be nice. The cummins dyno plot says mine engine is rated at 325 to 6,000 feet. After that, fuel should be cut.
Anyway, we all know some people love their 2strokes. I liked mine when I had it too.
Scott,
The 60 series Detroit is long gone. It was not picked up when Mercedes bought Detroit Diesel. Mercedes still supports all legacy 2 cycles and makes new 8-92TA engines for government contracts and foreign sales.
Mercedes has spent 1.5 billion dollars developing a new series of 4 cycle engines see: Automotive Engineering International Online: SAE Technology Newsletter (http://www.sae.org/automag/technewsletter/080129DieselTech/02.htm) with the DD13, DD15 and DD16 in production and found in many interstate trucks. RVs are starting to utilize the new engines. There will be another new engine, the DD11 out shortly. If the engine is in a Mercedes truck/bus, it will have a OM-xxx designation otherwise a Detroit Diesel or DD on it.
We have some big gaps between gears with our 4 speeds compared to the 6 speeds so you have to be careful in choosing someone off. Also, we don't have wastegates on most of our 2 cycle Detroits so we start losing HP as soon as you leave sea level. Many Cummins do have wastegates so are able to produce sea level power up to somewhere around 8,000 feet. On the other hand...
Lots of good arguments to have around the campfire but none should be taken too seriously. Hey, RVing is fun and no matter what it looks like or what engine is in it so let's enjoy each other's travel experiences. Maybe something to give you guys a buzz before warming up the keyboard is in order.
Pierce
Scott,
Thanks for posting your experience with this failure. Sorry it was such a pain in the wallet.
I've been expecting to replace my injectors but have not been able to find the part number online at all. The label on the engine list "0286 INJ DDEC II" but that has been no help. Found many Series 60, and mechanical injectors but not DDEC II.
Do you have the p/n for the injectors from your invoice?
You mentioned Filter Barn. All I can find is filters. How did do locate injectors?
Your friend that works on Detroits on boats: Has he worked on DDEC engines? (DDEC injectors might have a different life span)
Thanks,
John
It's all in fun. But goodness....if I told my college car club buddies that I argued on the internet with back then and challenged races with that I am no doing the same but regarding RV's!!!!!!!!!! hahahahhahhaha
John you will need to remove valve cover and look at a injector there is a tag on it it will be 523**** DDEC II, III, IV look the same and will interchange. DDEC II injectors do not have a calibration code for them. The DDEC II ecm was not capable of using them. But you can use any in either of the platforms. I run DDEC II in my series 60 with DDEC IV ECM Running a DDECIII program for horsepower.But to find out what you have you pretty much have to look.
Im not krush, but next time I find myself out there, ill gladly take you up on the mountain pass race, just so we can have two rvs on the same stretch of road blowing past passenger vehicles and blowing peoples minds. No clue who will win.
John,
Look at the Detroit Diesel sticker on the valve cover (several so you have to find the correct sticker). It will have the engine number. Call a Detroit Diesel service center with the number and they will give you the correct injector. You will need either a mirror (and read backwards) or a cell phone with a flash to read and record the engine number. Other option is to connect a Pro-Link to the port by the driver's seat and just read the engine number.
Reliabilt is the Detroit Diesel/Mercedes name for Detroit products. The rebuilding process is difficult as there are very few places that have the facility for rebuilding these injectors.
If you are having problems not getting all cylinders firing for a few seconds in cold or even cool weather, don't expect new injectors to remedy this. This can be from the fuel system leak down or several other reasons.
Again, using a Pro-Link 9000 will enable you to test the injectors either manually or automatically with the results listed on the LCD screen. It shuts off each injector, brings the RPM back up and sees what it takes to do this. The tests are done at idle or at 1000 rpm (or both) and are user selectable. You can also keep the Pro-Link connected to get a 1000 rpm fast idle when parked, etc. Testing the injectors is a NO BRAINER.
The life of boat injectors where our 6V-92TA puts out up to 620hp will be much shorter than our 350hp.
Original injectors in our 300SD with 440,000 miles of torture and an occasional bottle of injector cleaner so don't be in a hurry to replace yours without making sure that they need it. Lots of mechanics WILL tell you they need replacing but...
The fuel return lines from the injector can come loose and fill the crankcase with diesel. The Detroit seminars warned use to check and smell the oil level frequently to make sure it was using the normal amount and not "making" oil. They also said the Jake brake vibration can loosen them. I have never seen an injector crack itself. Dave M has done a lot of work on Detroits and may have some insight. Example of one forum with troubleshooting: http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=crawlers&th=77105
Photo below of our ID sticker. Yours should be the same and you can probably use the same engine number (but no guarantee).
Pierce
I used the above serial number at P.C. Industries toll free 877.885.4724. The injectors matching this engine serial number are #5234985 and list for $280.02 each with a $175 core charge. Found a lot overseas but not much here so far or on ebay.
The bottom left hand number on the sticker is the good one. Unit 06VF196872 He didn't need the zero. He also said he would need the serial of each engine to be able to give an accurate part number.
Pierce
Always wanted an 8v92 u300 until I drove the prototype unicoach with a breathed on series 60 Detroit.
Truck fleet owner thanked me for that coach every time I saw Charlie.
Peg the speedo up interstate grades.
@ Stump: Thanks for the info. That's just the kind of information I was looking for. I would have never guessed you could mix and match the systems like you have on you truck.
@ Pierce: Thanks for the info. $280 is much better than the $600 at the DD dealer.
I didn't know which number they used on the stickers. I took pictures of both stickers on the engine back in 2002. BTW my engine is only 300 hp so it get worked even less. Do you know what "Advanced horsepower" is? For some reason mine lists 400 and yours 350 - maybe an emissions thing. Not that it matters, my 648 tranny can't handle any more.
The reason I was thinking of replacing the injectors because the engine seems to smoke more on acceleration than I remember from years ago. And I have had a couple of mechanics suggest I do it at 150k miles which I'm starting to get close to.
I recently heard a bad story about a shop in Santa Fe, so I would research any shop there very carefully.
I have always read "Adv. HP" as Advertised horsepower...
Don
John,
Check the DDEC 5236962 injectors on ebay for $75/each outright/no core. These are supplied in a California Detroit smog kit with 277hp and perhaps up to 350hp. Reliabilt R 5236962 Reman Fuel Injector for Detroit Diesel 6V92 DDEC4 No... (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reliabilt-R-5236962-Reman-Fuel-Injector-for-Detroit-Diesel-6v92-DDEC4-No-Core-/181164805151?hash=item2a2e438c1f&vxp=mtr) I understand that they will work on DDEC II also.
Your engine number is on the bottom of the full length sticker and ends in 2357 but can't quite see the numbers that come before that.
Check your air cleaner as that can cause a little smoke, especially at altitude. We get a little puff up at around 8000 feet when leaving a stop sign. Takes longer for the turbo to spool up at altitude so more smoke. Accurate valve adjustment means accurate cam timing too. Ours smokes a small amount until it gets warm also. Running injector cleaner fairly often minimizes smoke.
One of these days, I will run into someone that has all the inside info on the different injectors and what the difference is.
No idea what "advanced 400hp" means.
Pierce
Well, I am glad to hear that your engine is ok and that I wasn't the bearer of bad news.
If that means Advertised then there's no "truth in" it because I'm only getting 300 ;D
Scott,
Sorry you had to go through that breakdown and to had pay out much more than was necessary, but as we all know you can't always be prepared for everything that happens. We've all had our share of unforseen circumstances and had to pay the price. The rest of us appreciate learning from your experience.
Were there any other noticeable signs when driving before this happened such as excessive smoke or lack of power, etc. Was your oil pressure fluctuating at highway speeds? Did the event trigger any codes? Have you had an oil analysis since owning your coach? I would also recommend an injector test and a cylinder cut-out test with a Pro-Link as Pierce suggested to check all of your injectors/cylinders and locate any weaknesses. Also with the Pro-Link Snap Shot feature you would have the ability to detect a potential problem and get it fixed before something catastrophic happens and leaves you stranded. I can't think of a better tool to have for preventative maintenance when traveling all the time.
Jerry
John,
What is the color of the excessive smoke on acceleration that you noticed? According the Diesel Pro Power 6V92 Turbo troubleshooting checklist there are three possibilities for excessive smoke on acceleration:
Long idle periods
Contaminated fuel
External oil leaks
Also a defective injector could be associated with black, white, or grey smoke. http://dieselpro.com/FreeResourcesPDF/Dieselpro_DD_6v92_turbo.pdf
I checked with the Detroit shop here and the injectors were $450 with a $250 core charge. Diesel Pro also carries them(rebuilt) along with other parts for the injectors. Detroit Diesel 6V92 Turbo | Injectors (http://dieselpro.com/detroit-diesel-parts/6v92-engine-turbo/injectors.html)
Jerry
Jerry that link shows mechanical injectors the DDEC Injectors are different.
Stump,
Thanks for the correction. I didn't realize it!
Jerry
The ADV horse power is the max hp that that engine parts combination can safely produce.
The engines are used in all kinds of vocations and different HP is needed .The reason the coaches are set where they are us to try and make them idiot proof . Larry Leisure traveling around with his motorhome is going to hit the hill and mash the gas.He expects to make it to the top full throttle no overheating,etc.In order to do that fuel rate has to be cut back in the ECM.
Your and my engine could safely be turned to 400 + BUT you have to then drive the coach,No more leaving the cruise on pulling hills,You have to watch gages and back off the throttle when Temps rise. The majority of owners dont want that they want to be enjoying the drive and not thinking what the engine needs.And of course it needs to last fir half a million miles too! But if you could discipline yourself to read the warning signs you could turn these way up.You couldn't let anybody else drive it because they would burn it up. You wont because it's yours and you know whats required. I do it everyday in my Peterbilt turned way up, temp is a issue but I know when to back out of it Truck tuns great and is fun to drive.But I couldn't put adriver in it they'd tear it up . I'd have to put it back more stock.
Advertised 400 might be all that the 746 Allison was rated at. The 520 to 620hp 6V-92TAs you see advertised on ebay would destroy the transmission as well as require radiators up front and on both sides.
Here is a new 565hp DDEC II 6V-92TA for $21K but is Tier I non-highway emissions only. Not that it would make any difference on an older motorhome. Pretty thing: Detroit Diesel 6V92TA Ddec II Marine Diesel Engine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-6V92TA-DDEC-II-Marine-Diesel-Engine-/291527369619?hash=item43e062a393&vxp=mtr) Turbo on the end gives more deck (boat) clearance but would fit our U300 with room left over.
Pierce
My challenge is only open to four cycle guys who hijack my posts and turn them into a four cycle superiority thingy. This happened several times including a year ago when I posted about engine oil and a bunch of four cycle guys attacked my engine as being inferior. I'm up here in the Rockies right now. Bring your "superior" four cycle rig up here and lets settle this thing so I can post stuff without any more of this four cycle superiority nonsense. Bring your wastegate and your 6 speed and your fancy computer monitors and anything else you think will make your four cycle keep up with me. We'll settle all those things too. It doesn't matter what you believe or what you write on here. It's not gonna change reality. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. So let's just do this right now. Who wants to bring their "superior" four cycle coach up here and get smoked over the continental divide? I just did it the other day. Only one car passed me and it wasn't until I reached about 11,000' and it was just barely walking away from me. We'll start at the bottom of the pass with the "superior" four cycle coach right on my back bumper and if you still have me in sight when I cross the continental divide you win and I have to go get my power turned up. But if I have to pull over at the top of Monarch Pass and wait for you I win and you have to stop hijacking my posts... agreed? ...and of course I promise I won't start hijacking your posts and turning them into two cycle superiority.
According to Stewart & Stevenson my injector part number is: R5234915 but you might have to move the "R" to the other end of the number because I've found it listed both ways. They're all over eBay and the internet in general. Filter Barn was a place that I recognized as being a good vendor that I've purchased stuff from before, but there are many other sellers. I'm told WW Williams in Phoenix is a hundred dollars cheaper than Stewart & Stevenson on that same injector but I didn't call them personally to verify this.
I met a really nice couple with a 1992 U300 40' towing a 4Runner in the campground at Capitol Reef national park. Sorry I didn't write about that beautiful campground yet. I've been so many places and I never get enough time to write anymore. The folks with the 1992 U300 have a 6V92TA with a rear radiator and a four speed Allison like mine but their engine is set at 350 horsepower. They have the wider body of the 1992 model but they have the rear radiator and four speed of the 1991 model. Maybe their coach was a transitional model or something? Their 4Runner weighs about 6,000 lbs and their coach no doubt weighs more than mine does. This new information supports the advice I got from Stewart & Stevenson's Allison transmission shop in Dallas where they told me my four speed would probably handle 450 horsepower with no problems, especially considering my coach is lighter than most and never tows a car... I'm not gonna do it but now I have more evidence suggesting that I could without damage.
The shop in Santa Fe you want to avoid is Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service. They price gouged me real bad on the parts ($1,000 for an injector) and probably on the labor too ($119/hour) and broke a part inside my engine. Read the beginning of this thread for the details.
The Series 60 that I measured the turbocharger on was in a Wanderlodge with fiberglass skin. I've only seen metal skinned ones up until that one. It must be a lot lighter with the fiberglass skin. It was a really nice coach. It was at Hal Burns for transmission work. The Series 60 is a physically large engine found only in very expensive coaches as near as I can tell. I previously saw one in a Beaver. I believe this was a 12 liter engine but I'm not sure. My 6V92TA is only 9 liter but the turbocharger is an inch larger in diameter than the Series 60.
No 4cycle guy hijacked your posts....it started with a warning to be careful of cheap injectors. It's just advice I received from guys that work/rebuild/tune/make a living on detroits.
Scott,
Reliabilt is the factory injector and as Krush said, the one to buy as the others have a higher failure rate.
All U300 coaches with a Detroit 6V-92TA have a Allison four speed, some with Jake, some with a retarder. Earlier lockup in only third and fourth, later starting part way through second gear. None that I know of have a six speed. The U300 in 1995 had a 6 speed but a CAT for an engine.
A 2 cycle Detroit will have a larger turbo because two cycles fire every stroke of the piston so use a huge amount of air. You will notice that the stock exhaust pipe is 5 inches in diameter. All four valves in the cylinder head are exhaust valves. No intake valves in a Detroit 2 cycle. Big advantage is the EGT is about 150 degrees cooler than a four cycle so Detroits almost never drop valves like their 4 cycle cousins.
The 60 series was a good engine and Mercedes has carried a lot of it's features forward into it's DD13, 15 and 16.
The V series Detroits found their way into boats as the V configururation allowed for a lower deck. Especially with the turbo mounted on the end like the one on ebay.
Pierce
Partial trivia, but from trustworthy sources: Guys were getting no good reliabilt injectors new out of the box! Now these guys send even new injectors off to the shop (another guy I know) to be tested. These are mechanical injectors, though.
With a newer common rail cummins or cat this same thing can happen but it is more likely the o-rings - cost $12. So you have to figure out why your oil is full of fuel first.
Detroits don't have fuel lines on the outside of the engine. All fuel passages are inside the head, both supply and return lines along with the camshaft driven unit injector/pump are under the valve covers. This is why the engines have an ultra clean look to them. The V series Detroits have a camshaft for each bank. This is one of the reasons there are more parts in one 92 cylinder head than in all of a Cummins or CAT engine. There is a short tube with fasteners at each end from the cylinder head fuel supply port to the injector and another short tube from the injector back to the internal fuel return passage. If these tubes are overtightened, they may crack or vibration from the Jake could loosen one. They do have an O ring and it's possible an injector could leak under the solenoid. Shops usually plug the return ports in the heads, feed dyed diesel at about 80 psi into the heads and look for the leak with a black light.
Detroit Diesel had several owners since originally sold by General Motors. Not that much development work was done by the new owners until Mercedes purchased Detroit. While many problems with engines and Reliabilt replacement parts can be traced to past factory practices, Mercedes has invested many millions in quality control and development on the legacy 2 cycles as well as the newer 4 cycle Detroit Diesels. The new DD13 (13 liters), DD15 and DD16 have had over $1.5 billion invested in development.
Some interesting new developments include a common rail injection with much lower pressures in the common rail with the injector pressure amplified AT the injector to about 30,000 psi. The B-50 life is now one million miles. This translates into 50% of the engines needing to be overhauled at one million miles with some earlier and some going over 3 million miles before needing overhaul. They are now international engines with the lightweight compacted graphite iron (CGI) engine blocks made in Germany but much of the automated machine work done here in the United States.
Pierce
Getting good EUI Electronic Unit Injector for a Detroit is a 50/50. The most reliable one now is a Bosch rebuilt unit. Reliabuilt,Truck Pro,those guys are hit and miss I put a set of TruckPro rebuilds in my Series 60 and had 3 bad ones in a 2 week period. 2 on the same cylinder and 1 on another, Pain in the Arse! If you can find a real good injector shop that has tons of EUI injector experience having a set built and matched is worth the cost,It's just hard to find a shop that will do that.
I had to crawl under my coach just now to look at an unrelated modification I made recently and noticed Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service apparently broke both grease zerts off my front universal joint cross and of course didn't fix it or tell me about it. I'm absolutely sure those zerts were there when I greased them at Ten-X campground the other day. The tow truck driver handed me the drive shaft and I looked it over to be sure all the parts were there and put it in a plastic bag. I asked Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service if I needed to grease my universal joints after they reinstalled it and they told me not to because they have a very specific procedure for reinstalling the drive shaft due to a previous lawsuit, and that they would grease it afterward. The broken grease zerts are shiny like they just happened. I drove straight to Bandelier after I left Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service and nobody else has worked on it or been under it except me just now. They can try to blame the tow truck operator but they told me they were gonna grease the universal joints and there's no way they could if the zerts were broken off. They didn't fix it or inform me the zerts were broken, which they certainly would have done if the zerts were already broken. I'll probably remove the broken zerts with an easy out and replace them tomorrow in the parking lot at a parts store. I don't really want Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service working on my coach ever again, even to fix all the stuff they broke. Now I'm wondering if the grease in the universal joint is contaminated with water and dirt. I noticed they're a member of the Better Business Bureau so maybe I'll file a complaint. I've never done that before. It probably amounts to doing nothing though. I called Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service a couple of days ago and asked them to order the injector hold down clamp that they broke and welded back together so I could replace it when I replace all my injectors. I haven't heard back from them yet... This place is really terrible so write it in your notes never to go there.
I have posted this several times but guess either no one reads it, doesn't believe it or won't stand up to the tow truck driver. You MUST order a set of hub covers (that match your axle bolt pattern) and NEVER let a tow truck driver pull the drive shaft. Some tow truck drivers actually know what they are doing but there are a LOT of lame ones that will cause you nothing but grief. Some think they know better...they don't.
When the TT driver wants to pull one axle, make him pull BOTH. This is what the Dana factory mandates and the reason they sell the covers in matching pairs. The maximum work that has to be done is pulling every other lug nut so you can get the chrome cover off the axle face.
Less than $40 buys a pair and peace of mind. See old posts for the website and ordering info.
Pierce
Cordless impact and you'll have each axle out in 30seconds. Well, unless some jackass RTV it on instead of using a gasket like the monkeys that touched mine before I owned it LOL
I think I'll order new universal joints and change them both because they've got 104,000 miles on them and I have no idea if they were greased regularly by the previous owner. They probably were but now that one of them is likely contaminated or otherwise damaged I'm kinda paranoid it'll break right in the middle of a busy traffic circle at rush hour or on a narrow bridge... or more likely, way out in the middle of nowhere.
The engine starts very rough now with at least one cylinder misfiring and a cloud of white smoke, so I get the feeling they really screwed up that injector install. It runs smoothly on all cylinders after it warms up though. I probably need to order a set of six new injectors, all the o rings, and both universal joints, and have Stewart & Stevenson redo the entire mess Hal Burns Truck & Equipment Service made... (sigh)
Here's a page from the MTU website on the history of the Series 92 engines. Series-92: MTU Online (http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu-northamerica/products/detroit-diesel-2-cycle/series-92/?L=yevlrfltl)
Also the world's most powerful diesel engine is a two cycle built by Wartsila. http://www.wartsila.com/
Awesome video.
Jerry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR3Yf_1qXfA