Our first "No Start" incident - I figure we are due. :'( Better it happens now, in our driveway, than out in the middle of nowhere.
Coach has (for the almost 2 years we've owned it) always started the instant I turned the key. 100% reliable...until now. Last time the engine ran was one month ago (7-16-15), and everything was totally normal. Between then and now it has just been parked in our driveway, hooked up to 50 amp. I went out today, planning to make a exercise run/fuel stop. I unhooked from shore power, turned key to "ON", and then the problem occurred. Trans panel gear indicators showed blinking "snake eyes" accompanied by beeping noise. After about 15 seconds the beeping stopped, but "snake eyes" remained on panel. In this condition, turning key to "START" will not activate the starter. The engine compartment starter switch is also inoperative.
What I've looked at so far:
1. The Allison shift panel has power, because it lights up the "snake eyes" indicators. It won't do anything else (like display codes, for instance).
2. Battery voltage on both house and start sets are good (13.6 volts). The generator cranked normally and started...it is running now powering both air conditioners. The boost switch works properly, verified by Multimeter reading at batteries. I tried starting with boost "ON" and "OFF" - no start either way. I am confident "Low Voltage" is not my problem.
3. Main ignition solenoid (in dash) is functioning normally, verified by Multimeter and A/C fan operation. Everything that is supposed to be powered when key is in "ON" position works just like it should.
4. Reading on Forum says "snake eyes" on shift panel indicates a "communication" problem between transmission and Allison panel or ECU. I have done absolutely nothing to disturb the wiring anywhere around the Allison ECU or the transmission. I crawled under the coach and looked at all the trans connectors - they are undisturbed and fully seated. Nothing on the transmission looks "unusual" or different from the last time I was under there. The connectors on the Allison ECU under the dash are fully seated and have not ever been disturbed.
I can't figure out what the heck could have changed since the last time I started the engine!
ANY IDEAS?
Intermittent same issue.
Trans guy at the cummins shop says to check power to the trans itself.
Did you check the aux start solenoid in front of the passenger seat? Try jumpering it.
I had it occur on our FT and it was the top post on the positive chassis battery cable. Cleaned all the connection started right up and I did 400 miles. Next morning nothing! Messed around and was able to determine that starter cable and the other cable that connected to top post were loose. Took a cooter pin cut half off and placed between the post and the cables. Problem solved. Ordered a new cable. But as of today still have not changed it as I am thinking about going to a military type connector.
Unplug shift pad and plug back in. Locate the Allison computer ECU and unplug connectors. I guess battery grounds should be disconnected to be sure no power (including any solar) is feeding panel & ECU. In cold weather key pad has been known to act up and a warm hair dryer has helped. Maybe try warm hair dryer to evaporate any moisture?
Yes, check voltage on the "out" side of both fuses to the Allison (likely under driver's side of dash on 1993). Check for ground. Check that both ECU gang plugs are in and have "clicked" as locked in place. Also check the connection at the shift pad.
If still snake eyes, call this guy in Ft Worth, TX area. He IS the guru on repair of Allison electronics.
Allison ECU and shift pad repair. 866 439 9779 John Kopalek
Transmission Instruments (http://www.transmissioninstruments.com)
My shop guy said cats eyes were no power. Or a bad TCM or pad
Thanks for the helpful comments. I will poke around some more tomorrow, and call the Guru suggested by Brett...pick his brain.
If you can get it to come back alive-- sometimes waiting a day will make a difference, use the up/down arrows to check for diagnostic codes. That will help John diagnose the problem.
Snake eyes is non communication between shift pad and ECM. Nothing will happen until they communicate. Probably a bad power supply in ECM but John can fix it. Try this, I know it sounds silly but worked for me. Point a hair dryer at the ECM for about 10 minutes and see if it starts.
The transmission gives permission to crank to the engine?
Yep
Well, I have GOOD NEWS, and a question. First, the good news: the neutral indicators are back, and the coach cranks!
I must give credit to Barry & Cindy, and to Twig. Barry suggested trying a hair dryer (aimed at the shift pad), but I discounted his idea because he mentioned "cold weather", and it obviously isn't cold around here. But then Twig ALSO suggested a hair dryer, and specifically said "point it at the ECM". So after 2 votes for a hair dryer, I said "What the heck..." and took the DW's dryer out to the coach. Turned it on and pointed it at the ECU under the dash - only took about 5 minutes and the problem went away! ^.^d
Possible theory about what happened:
I only did one thing different today from my normal starting routine. When the coach has been sitting in our driveway for a long period of time, I normally go out and start the engine with the interior of the coach at ambient temperature. Then, if it's hot inside, I turn on the A/C and cool it down gradually as we drive.
Today, on the other hand, I did it in reverse. It has been very hot here lately. I have been leaving some windows open on the coach to help ventilate it on hot days. Since the coach is warm inside even in the mornings, today I went out and turned the A/C on for several hours before I tried to start it. It was pretty chilly inside the coach when the problem occurred. Perhaps, rapidly cooling the warm, slightly moist air inside the coach caused some condensation to build up inside the ECU? It's only a guess...
At any rate, the dryer worked, and I THANK the Forum members for providing a solution. However, I am also concerned about this happening again, perhaps in more inopportune circumstances. Once the neutral indicators showed up, I pulled the codes stored in the shift pad. It only showed one code: D1 69 32. Barry's tech site decodes this to mean "SPI COMMUNICATIONS LINK FAULT IN ECU". So, is this problem likely to return, or do you suppose this was a freak occurrence?
Allison Transmission Codes Manual (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/allison_transmission_codes_manual.html)
Well, you know how to get it going again anyhow. The old saying...."if it's going to fail, it's going to fail when you need it most." comes to mind. I sent mine to John few years ago and has never failed since. Cost ......about $600. Sleep at night.....priceless......you make the call.
......and as an aside.......John rebuilds the ECM and the keypad together, so you would send him both.
Yes, diagnostic code 69-32 WILL reoccur. And this is one John is very familiar with fixing.
I have been doing some research this morning. First, I tried a Google search on the fault code 69-32 "SPI COMMUNICATIONS LINK FAULT IN ECU". I'm sorry to say that this is not a uncommon code in the Allison transmission world - the RV forums have many threads pertaining to this subject. Bottom line: 69-32 is the Kiss Of Death! Once you see this code stored in your shift pad, you are basically driving on borrowed time.
Following Brett's lead, I went to the Transmission Instruments website. Transmission Instruments (http://www.transmissioninstruments.com)
The owner and chief engineer, John Kopalek has carved out a nice niche business restoring the old Allison ECU and shift pads found on many classic RVs. His reputation appears to be golden, and he has 100% positive feedback on many RV forums. On his "trouble-shooting" page, the notation on fault code 69-32 is pretty clear: "Have You seen code 69-32 already? Stop troubleshooting = 100% defective ECU!!!"
So, the decision is made. The coach is safely parked in our driveway, and we have 4 weeks before our next scheduled trip. Plenty of time to get this problem permanently resolved. I will call John this morning and confirm the details, then pull the ECU (and probably the shift pad) and get them shipped off to the repair shop. As Twig says, the value of avoiding a untimely "dead in the water" situation is priceless. We (the owners of old RVs) are fortunate to still have skilled craftsmen around to work on our ancient hardware. Sadly, I foresee the time when this will not be true.
To finish this thread, I will report back when the ECU and shift pad restoration process is complete. Thanks again to those Forum members who consistently lead me out of the darkness and into the light. 8)
John
I had a similar issue last year and limped into MOT under de rated engine. Keith Risch found the same thing and changed all of my terminals to the military/marine type. He says they will not vibrate loose like the auto terminals do. Change them out- it is a cheap fix for a big problem.
Ted
Good advice. I did all of ours when we installed fresh coach batteries last year.
Amazon.com: NOCO TZKIT3 Lead-Free Military Grade Zinc Battery Terminal Kit:... (http://www.amazon.com/NOCO-TZKIT3-Lead-Free-Military-Terminal/dp/B00DNU3MIG)
Talked to john about my 32-12 codes and a rare set of snake eyes on my shift pad.
After sept 94 according to him Allison upgraded the ecm to prevent moisture from entering it.
His suggestion for my issue was to pull a chassis battery cable and then remove and reinsert the ten pin plug in between the pad and the ecm ten times
Contacts corrode after twenty years.
My guru agreed and has a Wurth contact cleaner he will use to both clean and lower the return of the corrosion in my case.
Update. I just went out to the coach to check the status of my "glitch", and it is back. "Snake eyes" are back on the shifter display, and engine will not crank. Just reinforces my decision to get this problem fixed NOW. I would definitely not want to drive the coach any distance in this condition. I talked to John at Transmission Instruments this morning - he said no problem he has the cure. I will get the stuff mailed off tomorrow, and hope for the best.
my brother had a problem where the shifter stopped working. We took the shifter and ECU to a local allison service center(Stewart&Stevison in Houston,TX) and they ran test on both of them and determined that the problem was the shifter. Great, easy fix, just one plug, but $2700. It was the problem. That was on a 93 U240, md3060.
Shifter not working and snake eyes are separate issues but if it involved the keypad and ECM.....Transmission Instruments would have fixed it for a fraction of $2700.
Every battery in our coach has heavy duty "military" type battery terminals, and if any terminal acts up in any way, we just replace it with spares. No need to change cables.
I understood that snake eyes and shifter not working are separate issues, I was says if you don't know what is wrong have someone check it out that does know what they are doing. It was free for the check out. As for as the $2700 fix, when on Galveston beach, this was a quick, easy and the only fix. As far as the repair on the shifter, I don't think you can get it repaired quickly or for less cost. Stewart& Stevenson does not repair them( at least in Houston Location).
When in a pickle you pay. I understand. BUT, Stewart and Stevenson are not Allison ECM experts. Transmission Instruments is. Your brother probably did not have this information. John does not just fix the snake eye problem but everything that has to do with Allison except the tranny itself. When I had snake eyes, my first call was to the horses mouth at Allison. "Bad ECM" they said and can not be repaired. "$3000 please and we'll send you a new one."
For anyone having issues with keypad and/or ECM, Transmission Instruments should be the first call. And he guarantees for a year.
Actually,
2 years! Got my package (ECU and shift pad) mailed off to his shop today. ^.^d
"Transmission Instruments cover all rebuilds as complete unit for 2 years by our Common Sense Warranty - we do not cover theft, fire, collision damage, improper installation or damages occuring beyond normal use, etc. Warranty returns must include your written reason for return."
This is what I sent in for repair. When I removed the components, the connectors (pins and plugs) were absolutely pristine - no sign of any dirt or corrosion. I am certain my "glitch" is internal to one of the 2 boxes, and will quickly be rectified by John Kopalek.
Howdy Chuck,
Good pictures with a great background!!
Good Luck with your transmission issues, Dave A
I was thinking about the connectors on those two components I removed. They are very high quality looking gear...sized so they fit the sockets tight, AND they have o-rings on the plugs to seal out the elements. They are obviously designed for much more challenging conditions than would be found under the dash, inside a motorhome. I find it hard to believe that there could ever be a corrosion problem on the pins or the plugs, unless they had been disconnected and left "open" for a long time, or possibly submerged under water. What I'm saying is, if you notice any strange transmission symptoms and some tech tells you it is being caused by "corroded connections" on the equipment located inside the coach, I would most certainly get a second opinion!
Photos: single plug goes to shift pad, double plugs go to ECU:
I found this reference source - may be of interest or use in case of future trans problems. WTEC II and WTEC III are the Allison controller models commonly found in 90's era Foretravel coaches. WTEC II remote shifter pad has 2 gear position indicators, WTEC III has a single gear indicator. Note the first few pages of the catalog show wiring harness diagrams - may or may not be comparable to the one in your coach. Page 25-26 shows the ECU connectors depicted in my photos above, and page 43 shows the shift pad connector.
http://www.usbid.com/datasheets/dsid/179041.pdf
Items in the catalog may be available for purchase at the St. Clair Technologies Web Store:
http://shopsct.com/autocompkit.aspx
I think johns mention of reconnecting the plugs applies more to the after sept 94 upgraded units.
I mentioned the hair dryer fix and he said after the above date the units had better sealing.
My codes being extremely intermittent was when he mentioned reinserted the plugs as a way to lessen the chance of a recurring issue.
Apparently looks may not have validity in the circuitry.
Different codes. Different models. Later production.
If my guru and I clean and reinsert the connectors ten times and it never shows snake eyes again that may or may not have been MY issues.
We are also checking the power to the trans but john discounted that area in our conversations.
Turning my ignition on the off then back on generated a set of neutral lights every time. So probably no permanent type failures. More subtle it seems.
We had a retard problem that took 3 days to find and it ended up being a single wire with a crimped on thin 'pin' male end. This male end is one of the many wires on the Allison ECU multipin connector. Many single pin'd wires are pushed into one side of the ECU connector, and the other side of the ECU connector plugs into the ECU.
Pin was lightly touching the ECU connector, but not pushed all the way in. All computer diagnostics 'saw' a good circuit from retarder to ECU, but there was not enough pin to connector surface contact to carry the necessary amps to actuate the retard solenoid.
My airplane tech buddy mentioned those issues many times
Update: The repair shop called yesterday and said my ECU and shift pad are fixed and headed back to me. I mailed the box to them on Tuesday the 18th (Priority Mail) and they got it Thursday morning the 20th. Yesterday, (Friday the 21st) they got it sent out late in the day, and it will arrive here Monday the 24th. So, less than 2 full days in the shop to repair both modules. Not bad. I will make one final update after I get the parts reinstalled, and see how they work. Fingers crossed!
One funny note: I mailed my box to them USPS Priority Mail, and "accepted" the standard $50 insurance coverage. I see on the UPS tracking notification for the return shipment that their box is insured for $4000. I guess they think the rebuilt parts are a bit more valuable!
Final update: I got my rebuilt ECU and shift pad reinstalled this morning - soon as I turned key to "ON" the nice bright "N" for neutral popped up on both gear indicators. Problem (appears to be) solved! Of course, only time, and mileage, will tell for sure. We went out today to top off the fuel tank and exercise the beast. Engine started perfectly, gears shifted normally, all is good. ^.^d
I also received a totally unexpected BONUS when I installed the rebuilt Allison equipment. Way back in Sept. of last year, I started a thread about my annunciator going off constantly, and for no apparent reason. Here is the thread if you're curious:
Annunciator Trouble (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=22425.msg170833#msg170833)
I never figured out what was causing the audible alarm, so all this time I have had the noise box muted. Well, today I had the dash cover up while I was reconnecting the shift pad. As I started to put it back down, I decided to try "un-muting" the annunciator to see if it was still squawking. Guess what - IT WAS SILENT! Somehow, getting the Allison equipment rebuilt also cured my constant alarm. I can only theorize that the two things were somehow related. Anyway, I am happy to have my turn signal noise maker back, even if it is irritating. 8)
We refer to the annunciator as the "geezer alarm." My son gave me that term after I described the turn signal alarm on the Suburban which chimes if I leave the turn signal on too long. (I was at the edge of my "geezer years" when he introduced me to the term.)
The first time we test drove a Foretravel, my first comment was, "Oh! It has a geezer alarm!" This comment was made at the first use of a turn signal.
The alarm is indeed irritating at times, but has alerted a lot of owners to problems that would have developed into more serious issues if not noticed early.
Congratulations on a successful resolution the problem of "snake eyes" on the Allison pad! Thanks for sharing and carefully describing your experience.
What was the final cost of the rebuilt parts?
Total cost was 0.709 Coach Bucks. Kinda pricey, but the only alternative is buying new parts, IF they are available. Price breakdown:
Repair of ECU: $495
Repair of remote module: $159
UPS Ground + Insurance ($4000): $ 55
http://www.transmissioninstruments.com/pricing.html
He raised his prices again. When I sent mine in he did the ECM and the pushbutton selector for $495. What's a remote module?
Remote module = pushbutton selector. The way I understand it, in some applications the shift pad (pushbutton selector) is attached to (or it is actually part of) the ECU. On my coach it is "remote", i.e. not directly attached.
As to price increase, what isn't going up? Since John Kopalek is basically the only game in town, it's fortunate (?) they aren't even higher.
When compared to the alternative (new factory) This is a bargain!