Hi- I'm a 'newbe' here to the forum, we just bought a '91 GV Unihome U300 at an auction last week, and thought I would post a pic of our build plate with the vin and build number, but I don't see how to upload a pic with this post? Anyway, our build number appears to be 3807 and our Vin is 1F97D4409MN054235 and the build info line in full reads G91380740SBIU3006V.
Our coach has 101,700 original miles, it is fairly clean, some wear in the cloth upholstery, the tires are 90% good, it had 3 new batteries, runs well, it even had 1/2 tank of fuel! It appears the previous owners from SW Idaho donated it to a children's charity in Denver, Colorado which then put it in an auction near Boise. We had been looking for an affordable diesel pusher with good basement type storage, and we ended up with this coach after the auction was over. After all the dust settled and we had the tires rotated around, paid the Oregon DMV for the privilege of having Oregon state plates, and paid the Good Sam insurance for 6 months, we were about $10,300 lighter in the wallet area! I hope this was a good deal, it seems to be anyway!
But reading about the bulkhead separation issues has me concerned, is there an easy way for a newbe to spot any issues?
Another issue that has me puzzled is that there is no 120V power to the front part of the coach, from the bathroom forward, but just for the plugs. The 'fridge has power, the front roof A/C unit has power, etc. Someone removed the breaker switch from the breaker box for the circuit that powered the plugs, and I cannot even find the wire that should be hooked up to it. I spliced in a temporary power cord to check the plugs, but it blows the breaker when I apply power, so there must be a direct short somewhere. But other then the fading carpet, some wear on the couch and lounge recliner chair, and some water staining on the paneling below the driver's and passenger's front side windows it appears to be a sound coach. Oh, and I can't get the horn to work even with good fuses. Shucks, I was looking forward to those air horns! Anyway, I look forward to being a member of this forum and learning a lot of good things about Foretravel coaches.
Hi dburt:
Your '91 coach is very close to our '91 GV 40 number 3772. The front outlets are also powered by the inverter (when on) through an inverter transfer relay. I'm thinking someone (possibly with less than adequate electrical skills) has attempted make some changes that have now rendered the front outlets in-operative, and it sounds like with a direct short. You will need to do some trouble shooting and eliminate things until you find the source of the problem. I wouldn't think the original wires are gone, maybe just tucked away. Good luck, post as you work on this and any questions you have.
@dburt Welcome to the club. You're in the right place.
First thing I would check it the DOT dates on your tires. Doesn't matter that the tires have 90% of their thread. If they are older than 5 to 7 years (that number is open to discussion) you will need to replace them. RV tires rarely wear out they almost always date out.
When I got my coach the tires looked great. After I blew a rear tire about a thousand miles later found out they were 10 years old! I was lucky. It was an inside rear and it just went flat. It didn't disintegrate and take out the wheel well fiberglass. Was able to limp to the next town at 20mph and had all 6 tires replaced. You might not be so lucky. If a steer tire goes you are in for an exciting ride. Don't put yourself or your family at risk.
Edited to include link to how to read DOT date codes.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=11
see ya
ken
Try this thread for some more ideas on fixing the horn;
Horn won't work (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=25304.msg200079#msg200079)
I have a 91 also Build 3811 what your floorplan?
Thanks Ken for the tire advice- I took the coach into the local Les Schwab tire store (a chain of tire stores out here in the west) where I get my tire work done, and had them look over my tires. There were two good Toyo tires on the rear on each outside with some nice looking Kelly tires on the inside, and some nice looking Kelly tires on the fronts. But on further inspection we found the DOT manufacture's date as putting the Kelly tires at 12 years old, and the Toyo tires at 8 years old. Since the Toyo tires were almost 'as new' we switched those to the steer tires, and put all the Kelly tires in the back. I don't have the funds for new tires right now (at Les Schwab the Toyo tires are about $500 each) but that is a priority for me, since I know the issues with outdated tires. I also bought a good Toyo spare and had them mount it on a steel rim so I would have a spare for the front in an emergency. The steel wheel cannot fit on the outside on the back axle because of the tire studs that are used with the aluminum wheels unless I want to carry a set of extra studs. My main goal was to have a spare to 'get to town with' if we should lose a steer tire. Sort of like insurance, if you don't have it you will need it, but if you have it likely you won't need it, hopefully!!
My coach has the side bath and center hallway, and of course lots of closet space in the long hallway.
I got all the original books, owner's manuals, a lot of the previous owner's service receipts for work done, etc which I really like to have with a used RV. I just wish I knew what someone did to that one 120v electrical circuit that feeds all the plugs from the bath forward. I may just have to figure out a way to run some new romex and install a new circuit breaker in the main box, or somehow find the short circuit and repair it and put the whole circuit back online.
Stump, Chuck and Jeannie, thanks for the reference info on the air horn, I will get right on that and see if I can get the issue solved.
I want to try out that air horn!!
Another issue has cropped up- recently several times when going to start the coach cold after it has been sitting overnight, the check engine light and engine shutdown light come on and the engine will shut it's self off after about 30 seconds after it starts. Started checking and the engine oil is fresh and full. Cold engine oil pressure at idle is 45lbs, warm idle pressure is 25lbs. Air pressure was 90 or over. I'm thinking perhaps it could be an electrical issue, since all the large Interstate batteries (although new in April) have been having trouble staying fully charged, even though I turn off the battery disconnect switch, and have looked for anything left on that could run the batteries down. But the engine crank battery is (according to the books) isolated from the house batteries, and if I put it on a separate battery charger and charge it up to 100% or about 12.7 volts the check engine light and shut engine down light does not come on and it starts and runs fine. Perhaps an issue with low voltage to an engine or fuel injector controller due to low battery voltage? The first time this happened I was not near a plug in for the battery charger, so I fired up the gen-set and let it run a couple of minutes and then tried to start the main engine again and presto!- it ran fine. So that made me think low cranking battery volts effecting something in the engine computer type controls?
Also, I am suspicious of the onboard battery charger- I need to check it's operation more closely and see if it is in fact fully charging the batteries when the coach is plugged in.
I sure do appreciate everyone's help, and I have found much useful information just cruising the different threads!
This sure does look to be a good forum with even better folks onboard! Thanks again folks- Dennis
I forgot to add that I did find the posts on how to check the bulkheads, and with much worry and foreboding I went out last night with a good flashlight to check the rear and front bulkheads. Much to my relief they look very good with only minimal surface rust here and there. I was one happy camper to find that out! ;D
Now I'm hoping the tooth fairy tells the tire fairy that I've been a pretty good guy and to be sure and bring me about 4 new Toyo tires for the rear of the coach!
Check the sight glass at the top of the radiator. The 6V92 has a coolant level sensor and will shut down if coolant is low.
thanks prfleming for the tip, I checked the sight glass and it was showing 2/3 full and only 1/3 from the top! Back to the drawing board on that issue!
But I did get the horn issue solved after reading the thread on horn problems. I tapped on the horn relay on the back side of the dash, and took off the horn button and made sure there were no loose wires. Shazamm! :dance: I know have an air horn!!
Sometimes just solving one little irritating problem can make the whole day seem worthwhile! ^.^d
And the Hadley's are one of the most fun toys on the coach! :)
see ya
ken
Look for a GFCI outlet maybe a reset button has tripped causing you to lose feed to those outlets.
Check the GFCI next to the bathroom sink. The buttons may be brown, not the conventional red and white. Took me an hour to figure that one out when our outlets quit.
That failing, buy an inexpensive non-contact AC tester from Harbor Freight or Home Depot. About the size of a cigar, you just stick the little probe into the outlet and it will indicate if there is power there. See HD page at: Search Results for voltage tester at The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/s/voltage%2520tester?NCNI-5) HF models get poor reviews as they may come apart but only $5
Pierce
dburt,
Welcome to the forum. There's quite few Detroit Diesel coach owners here. They are quite proud of them and we have a lot of spirited 2cycle vs 4cycle debates. You'll find all the help you need here with all the experts and experience in all areas of your coach as I have being a novice on Diesel pushers Many parts can still be had from the factory even for these older coaches.
I would advise getting and oil analysis as soon as you can if there is no oil change history available. Blackstone Labs (http://www.blackstone-labs.com)
For 25$ you will be able to check on the condition of your oil and overall health of your engine for signs of potential problems.
Also check for for codes both active and historical. Flip the dash up and on the mounted on the wall across from the steering wheel you should have the code reader for the DDEC II and Allison transmission. Turn the ignition on and flip the switch on at a time and you should see a series of flashing lights if any to get the codes. They will keep repeating until you turn the switch off.
If there are no active codes causing a check engine light to stay on, you'll probably see only historical codes. A Pro-Link or some other diagnostic tool will be needed to clear them. Sometimes an event can can occur causing a code but may not be a problem and will stay in the historical codes until cleared.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry, and everyone else for the tech tips- I will start with checking the code reader and see if there are any codes, and report back on what I might find. Can a person buy one of the Pro-link code readers at a reasonable price to use to read or clear codes? I am somewhat of an old fashioned mechanic but electronic stuff can buffalo me. :-[
Pierce- the first thing I did was replace the GFI plug in the bathroom as it appeared to be inoperative and I thought it might be the
cause of my problem, but it did not help. That's when I began to check around the breaker box and discovered that there was a missing breaker and no wire that seemed to lead to that circuit. Then I applied power from my shop to one of the plugs and it would just blow the breaker on that circuit in my shop, so it appears to be a dead short somewhere from the bathroom plug on towards the front, since all the plugs are dead, but I still have good power to the roof A/C and the 'fridge, since they are on a different circuit. If the coach still has an inverter, where would I look for it, and what would it look like? There is a box that looks like a battery charger hanging from the top of the battery compartment that has a fan on one end, it is not plugged into the 120v outlet that is next to it, and the cord is tied up like someone decided that the charger or whatever it is did not work anymore so they unplugged it. I can post a picture of it if no one knows exactly what that might be. It did not look like an inverter, or even a 120v to 12v converter, but perhaps that is what it is? I sure hate trying to figure out someone else's electrical work, especially when I can't figure out what they were trying to do, or if they even knew what they were doing! :headwall:
The silver box in the battery compartment that is hanging is the battery/convertor charger,it should be plugged in so the batteries charge when on shore power. The power inverter is probably in the big bay open it from the drivers side and look towards the back of the entrance steps you should see it.
AMEN to that, Brother! You aren't the first new owner to encounter "custom" wiring mods, and you won't be the last.
Just for reference, here is a photo of the original battery charger/converter and the (separate) original inverter that came with our coach.
Dennis,
Here's some old posts on '91 converters with photos of OEM equipment: converter charger or inverter charger (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23598.msg183839#msg183839)
Also that GFI in bathroom feeds outlets (through the GFI circuit) to the outside outlet, outlet in the basement, and I think an outlet in the kitchen sink area. Different floor plans will have slightly different wiring due to the outlet location changes in each. Looking at your VIN it appears you have an SBI floor plan.
Looking under the dash this morning, I did not see anything that looked like I could read engine codes from. So I am including pictures to see if I missed something- sometimes I am so good at seeing the forest I can't see the trees if you know what I mean!
Also including a picture of the dash right after starting the engine this morning with the check engine lights on, it ran for about 20 seconds and then shut it's self down. The cranking battery, before starting it, was down to 78% this morning at 12.4 volts but it turned over quickly and fired right up. Still the lights came on and then engine shut down. I have my external battery charger on it right now, so when it gets to 100% and 12.7 volts, it should start right up and no lights should come on, at least that is what it has been doing the last few times I have encountered this issue.
The battery charger in the battery bay has a cord coming out of it that has one end taped up. I don't like that! (See photo) I guess I could plug it in and see if it works and charge the batteries when plugged into shore power. I will look in the bay nearest the step to see if I see the inverter and converter. I know there is a compressor in there that fires up and keeps the air pressure at 90 lbs when plugged into shore power.
For some reason in my previous post I neglected to include the picture of the onboard battery charger, so here it is.
Also, in the previous post is included a picture of the monitor set in the mode to read propane, water, waste water, etc levels.
It only reads propane levels in the somewhat scrambled version, I don't see how to get it to switch to showing fresh or waste water levels. But the monitor or the system seems to be on it's way out, so might have to look into upgrading that system someday. It does show a passable B&W rear view in the rear camera mode.
I found the converter, but unless it is also an inverter it does not appear to have a separate inverter? I am wondering if some of the electrical gremlins and 'issues' are not somehow interconnected due to poor or faulty work done by the previous owners?
Look at the last photo you posted. Just above and to the right of the big fuse block. There are two rocker switches on the top with vertical lables. With the ignition on, turn the switch for the engine on and count the flashes from a small bulb about a foot away. Usually will be just a bare bulb at the end of a couple of wires. Count the flashes and then compare to the codes listed for your engine or transmission. Codes should be here on the forum or PM as I have the list.
Pierce
Here are the code lights.
Pierce
And the codes in the PDF.
Pierce
Could not find a small light under the dash that would blink, but discovered that when I had the ign key turned to on and switched on the engine rocker switch on the small block attached to the firewall, the check engine light would flash in different sequences. So perhaps that is the 'small blinking light' for this coach? Now I will look up the codes and see if they correlate to what I counted out in the blinking sequences.
Dburt, Don't rely on the display in the backup monitor for accurate info on the battery state. Use a Good Volt Ohmmeter to read actual battery voltage at the battery terminals. A load tester is also a good tool to have, just because a battery shows 12 volts does not indicate the condition of it.
Keep asking , someone here will help you with a solution.
Gary B
Thank you Pierce for those codes! Do I assume that a flash sequence of 3-1 would mean number 31? Or a 4-3 would mean number 43? If so, then I have:
code 31 (Fault on Aux circuit)
code 32 (ECM backup system fail)
code 43 (low coolant level)
code 46 ((Low battery voltage)
Now since the coolant level is up where it should be in the sight glass, I must assume that code 43 is an old code that was never cleared out? And if that is the case, then perhaps the other codes (with the exception of code 46) may be old codes as well, at least I would hope.
Code 46 does seem likely to be a current issue, since (as mentioned above in previous post) it starts fine if the battery is charged up to 100% 12.7v as indicated on the battery charger, before trying to start the engine. If the battery charge is below 90% as indicated on my battery charger it seems to trigger the check engine light and engine shut down light when I start the engine. All the Interstate batteries were new in April of this year, but the cranking battery does not hold a good charge overnight. I have switched it out with the other batteries to see if another one would hold a charge better, but no luck. There could be a draw on the cranking battery somewhere which causes it to drop voltage overnight. But I am suspecting the batteries themselves as perhaps being faulty. I have experienced issues with other Interstate batteries in RVs, and have heard first hand stories from other folks experiencing the same issues, so I am suspicious. When I bought the coach all the batteries were as dead as a rock, and they seemed to struggle to take even a 75% charge. The Interstate battery dealer told me that before I could ask for a warranty exchange, they had to have the batteries overnight to try and bring life back to them. So I let them have one battery but the dealer was only able to bring it back to about 80%. He said I needed to bring the batteries home and keep charging them at a 2 amp setting when not driving the coach, and over time this would bring them back to life. Since this is not my first rodeo, I began to suspect he just did not want to deal with me, even tho he had sold the batteries to the previous owner and had even installed them.
I just can't afford a new cranking battery right now, so I was hoping to bring this one back from death. And with the onboard battery charger off line for whatever reason I have not figured out yet, I have to put my shop battery charger on the batteries overnight, or run the gen-set which seems to charge them up, even with the onboard battery charger off line. I have not figured out all the nuances of that electrical mystery. ::)
Does anyone have a good suggestion as to where I can buy the Pro-Link code reader mentioned by several folks on the forum?
Just a typical auto parts store like Auto Zone, NAPA etc?
Look on E Bay for a Pro Link You should be able to pick one up for a few hundred bucks you will need the DDEC II cartridge and the DDECII connection plug it could be rectangle or round.
It looks like the reason your charger in the battery bay was unplugged is the PO (previous owner) has installed a Xantrex Freedom modified sine inverter/charger combo - the green box in your pictures - to replace the OEM inverter. This explains why your batteries charge when the genny is running, the Xantrex switches to charger mode when there is genny or shore power available, and back to inverter mode when there is no genny or shore power.
This might also explain your issues with the front outlets. If the old inverter has been pulled, there is also an inverter transfer relay in the cubby hole under the bed that only will work with the OEM inverter. It has to be removed and the coach circuits rewired to the Xantrex which has a built-in transfer relay. This is probably why the OEM breaker for the front outlets is disconnected and wiring is removed, the Xantrex has built-in breakers. Unless the PO was a fairly good electrician, this wiring could easily be fouled up, and affect the coach circuits that were connected to the OEM transfer relay. The other possibility is the Xantrex 120 volt inverter circuits once worked, but now do not - but it appears the charger still works.
Post a pic of the cubby hole under the bed and we can see what the wiring looks like.
Yes, you have it right.
Go to Ebay for the Pro-Link reader and correct cartridge for the DDEC II. Cartridge may be listed as DDEC I & II or DDEC II & III . Since this reader has been replace with newer models (at astronomical prices) you will have to do a search using key words like Detroit, Pro-Link 9000, Kent Moore, MPSI. All Foretravel 2 cycle Detroits are DDEC II. Many are trying to get a fortune for the used readers and cartridges but I bought a couple for less than $200 each for the reader (less than $100) and the cartridges. One came with Detroit, GM, Ford and Chrysler cartridges. The domestic car cartridges are going for about $5 each. The Detroit DDEC II cartridge should be under $100 and the CAT or Cummins quite a bit more. Domestics cars are super cheap because they made so many. Detroit DDEC engines are/were on most all buses but CAT and Cummins put computers on later so not as many on the market. Getting a reasonable deal may take a while.
The Pro-Link 9000 will read about 40 or so engine functions (total gallons used since new along with engine serial number, horsepower, rotation direction, firmware ware version, fuel mileage, trip mileage, temperature, injectors, etc, etc, etc.) and can also modify several. It will tell you the active codes as well as the stored codes and also give the dates and length of time the code was active. You can then erase any of the old ones.
ECU voltage is one of the functions so will be applicable to your code and starting problem.
Isolate (disconnect cables) each start battery and check in the morning with digital voltmeter.
I installed digital voltmeters where the Audit CRT was to constantly monitor both engine and house batteries but you can buy lighter plug digital volt meters and keep an eye on both voltages. The lighter plug in the dash is engine battery voltage, the lighter plug by the wall is house battery voltage. See my old posts.
PM with questions,
Pierce
PrFleming, you are really helping me to understand what may have gone on with the PO, and what is going on now!! As I have said before, electrical issues are my weak point (among many others) and now I feel like I will be able to get some kind of a handle on what is going on, or not going on!
I found the book for the Xantrex inverter/charger and will also read that to help me understand some of the issues!
Thank you again Pierce for your help, and the info about the code reader- I will start a search on Ebay and see what I can find.
Tell us what the Xantrex monitor panel (first picture in above post) does when you plug into shore power or start the generator.
OEM transfer relay box is removed. Yellow romex and small metal romex strain reliefs are new, should help with tracing what was changed.
Looks like some cut romex circuits here. These are probably wires that went to the old inverter, not sure why they weren't re-used with the Xantrex. Definitely need to do some circuit tracing and trouble-shooting.
BTW, earlier you mentioned connecting your shop power to the dead coach circuit and blowing the shop breaker. Really shouldn't do that...you don't know what in the coach will be getting that power... Better to switch off the main 50 amp breaker, make sure the inverter is off (disconnect it from the battery), and trouble shoot with a circuit continuity tester. Just make sure ALL 120 volt circuits are off.
Brett, the inverter shows nothing with the gen-set running until you push one of the buttons at the bottom like 'share' or 'set up' and then it lights up just like in picture 1. Then it looks like that for a while and then goes 'blank' unless you push one of the bottom buttons again. Nothing shows up in the column 'invert' unless you push the button, and then only the green LED by the button lights up, but nothing in the column above it. I was away from shore power when I did this test, so had to use the gen-set.
Thanks also PrFleming, I feel like I am starting to at least get a sense of direction to go in looking for a solution! Yes, there are two cut romex wires in the corner that don't appear to be hooked up anymore to anything. When running the gen-set or hooked up to shore power they have no power in them.
I will be more careful and not apply power to anything, I will take your advice and do it the right way!!
Here are a couple of schematics that show the OEM 120V circuit panel and inverter wiring, hopefully these can help you to "reverse-engineer" the state of things now.
Note that both circuits 2 (microwave) and 5 (bath and front outlets) originally were switched for the OEM inverter (because the inverter could only run the microwave alone). Does the microwave work now? This would also have been re-wired in the new setup.
Just noticed on your pic of the breaker panel labels that #2 "Microwave" is crossed out, then "Inverter" is crossed out - Hmmm...
No, the microwave does not work since it is plugged into one of outlets that is in the small cabinet above it and that outlet is dead also. Like you said, I may have to reverse engineer the current set up to figure out what got cut out of the system and why. And I am going back to basics and re-reading and re-checking all aspects of the Xantrex unit to make sure there is no setting that is turned off, or something unplugged, etc.
Yes, you really need to (carefully) trace it out. There should be a breaker on the main breaker box that goes to/supplies the inverter/charger with 120 VAC from either shore power or generator.
When the inverter/charger gets that 120 VAC in (and their is a breaker in/on the inverter/charger) it does two things:
1. It starts charging the batteries (the Xantrex monitor will show high amps and voltage around 14 VDC).
2. It will "pass through" the 120 VAC to all circuits downstream of it. There are likely two small breakers on the inverter/charger that you may need to reset for this.
I am just arm-chair quarter-backing here, but it seems to me the best approach is to step back a few steps, get the inverter out of the circuit and get things working again, and then move forward, step by step, in this order:
- Identify the coach circuit 2 wire (I'm thinking one of the wires going into the circuit box where the OEM relay was), and wire it back directly to the circuit 2 breaker (unhook any other wires on the breaker), verify the microwave works on shore power and/or genny power.
- Identify the coach circuit 5 wire (I'm thinking one of the wires going into the circuit box where the OEM relay was), and wire it back directly to the circuit 5 breaker (replace breaker in box), and verify the front outlets work on shore power and/or genny power.
- Now, wire the Xantrex per the Xantrex manual. Depending on the Xantrex you have (i.e. if it can support dual input and dual output), for the 2 "inverter" circuits 2 and 5, I'm thinking this will require all new runs of 10 gauge romex from the circuit breaker box cubby to the Xantrex (2 to the inverter, 2 back from the inverter). The yellow is 12 gauge, not heavy enough, needs to be orange 10 gauge. From the pictures you have 2 breakers on the Xantrex, so you won't need a separate inverter sub panel with breakers.
You'll have a real nice upgrade when done.
Thanks again PrFleming, you have a good plan it appears. At least I now have a better direction and a real plan of attack instead of chasing my tail! I checked the Xantrex unit, it was operating properly, the green LEDs were working on the base unit it's self as the installation manual said they should, it had not tripped it's breakers, so it seems to be functional. The remote control unit in the kitchen lights up the way it is supposed to when following instructions, according to it all systems work. So why no power to those pesky kitchen and front plugs? If they had a short in the circuit it appears they would have thrown the circuit breakers on the main Xantrex unit in the basement, but they did not, so perhaps there is a wire that has come loose somewhere? So as PrFleming suggests, go back to square one and start over again and 'rebuild the system' so to speak. That will be the plan of attack after the upcoming weekend holiday. We are going to take the coach for a short 125 mile trip to a flea market in NE Oregon, it's just a short trip to see what other things might 'shake out or show up' so I will know what other things I might need to address. I will keep the forum posted on what I find out, in case it might help someone else facing some of the same electrical issues and gremlins.
In the meantime, if anyone else has any other ideas or suggestions, don't be shy about sharing them with me please!
On my 91 I have a panel in my kitchen on it is a switch for the invertor and a small rfed reset button It allows ,e to select between the putlet and the microwave. Of you have that panel maybe try turning it on and pushing thye reset button and see what it does
stump:
Yes, I have the same panel for the stock inverter. But, we have determined that dburt's stock inverter has been removed. If this original switch panel is still there, it won't do anything now...
After a weekend camping in the coach, and dealing with the issue of the 'stop engine' and 'check engine' light coming on and shutting the engine down after about 30 seconds of running when cold, I was perplexed. After 4-8 times of re-starting the engine, and when it was warmed up somewhat from the starting and running for 30 seconds so many times, the lights would stay off and the coach would run fine when warmed up.
After getting back home last night and going to bed annoyed, I woke up this morning fuming and mulling over the issue and thought I would have a 'talk' with the good Lord about my frustration when a thought went thru my noggin that I should check the coolant level again when the engine was cold. Now I was irritated by that thought, since I had checked the coolant level already and it was good before the problem started showing up. But since the thought might have some merit, I went and checked the coolant level and what do you know- the coolant level was down below the sensor level! I must have checked the coolant level originally when the engine was warm. I added some anti-freeze and started the engine and no lights, and no issues! Wow, what a simple fix- which proves the point that a person should always check and double check the basics first. :-[
As a side note, I weighed the coach with full diesel fuel tank, full fresh water, all our gear, and two of us onboard, and we weighed in at 22,300 lbs. Before we left, I filled the tank up with fuel on flat level ground (halfway up the small slanted filler neck) and then drove from the Ontario, Oregon area over to Baker City, Oregon on I-84. Those of you who are familiar with that route know the long grades you have to pull headed NW. In fact local lore says if we were to level the road down flat, instead of 75 miles of long grades and a climb in elevation from around 2,200 feet above sea level to nearly 3,500 feet elevation at Baker City, we would have nearly 150 miles of flat level highway. ::) Anyway, with about a 15 mph headwind I just knew my mileage would be way down in the basement, but filling up again in Baker City I was surprised to see my mileage at 9.6 mpg. Now I always fill my own fuel tanks, and always at the same level on flat ground. I am somewhat OCD about such things, not sure why but I like to know the precise mpg ability of my vehicles. I only drove 60 mph top speed, and did not tow anything. I used the cruise control when I could on the flats, and never on the uphill grades. The engine/transmission retarder was great on the long downgrades, much better then riding the brakes. Coming back last night, the long 6-7% 3 mile long uphill grade climbing out of Farewell Bend on I-84 dropped my speed down to 42 mph at the top. Now I may have been able to drop down to 2nd gear and run the engine up against the redline for a little more top speed, but I am not inclined to abuse an engine when there is no real need to. ;) All in all, it was an interesting weekend with a good ending for problem solving.
@dburt You won't be hurting the engine. It is governed to 2,200 rpm. Plenty of 4 strokes go to 4,000rpm without problems. Your 6v92 can handle the 2,200 rpm no problem. It will also benefit from more air flow, coolant, oil, and fuel circulating.
When I was having cooling fan speed problems an old 6v92 mechanic had me floor the throttle in neutral so he could check the maximum fan speed. He even said that if it was overheating climbing a hill to pull over go to neutral and floor it for a while until the temps come down! Which I've done several times without issue.
see ya
ken
DBurt,
The 6V-92TA was the first HD diesel engine to get electronic controls and is bullet proof if you don't use the override control when you lose the hydraulic pump belt and overheat it. It will go into a 30 shutdown mode for a lot of reasons as you found out. It, along with other premium diesels, have wet liners. They are more expensive to manufacturer but much easier to overhaul. The wet liners have sealing rings toward the top and bottom and a little more care in monitoring the coolant temperature is needed but should you exceed about 220 degrees, the DDEC will go into shutdown mode.
Downgrade, I usually let the rpm build to about 2000, use the brakes to 1700 or so, let it build again and repeat the process. I would let it go higher but I once spaced out and when I looked down, I was at 2400 rpm. The engine is glass smooth from idle to past fuel cutoff so you do have to pay attention. Fire departments go up to 2400 with a higher HP rating so 2200 is good for all day.
9.6 mpg/60 mph in mild hilly country is about what to expect. We get up to 12 mpg at the same speed on the flat but half that in the mountains. Just got back from about a 800 mile trip through the Sierras and averaged 8.0 mpg with lots of high altitude grades. Hills, headwind and speed make a big difference. Outside temps make quite a difference in engine temps and power.
Anytime the engine shuts down for an unknown reason, pop the dash top up, flip the engine switch to the on position up at the back in front of the driver and with the "ignition" switch in the on position, you can count the number and sequence of flashes out of the little bulb and then compare to the fault codes to see the problem. With a Pro-Link, you can see the fault codes and the date along with the duration. Nice!
You will have lots of fault codes stored in the DDEC memory now.
Pierce
You maybe already checked this, does the radiator overflow tank have enough fluid? Your engine should draw some antifreeze from the overflow tank if needed when cooling down. Sounds like yours possibly wasn't able to draw fluid and air got in. Also make sure the hose from the radiator to the tank is solid. When I got our '91 I had to replace the overflow tank and hose.
I'd love to see 8 mpg this trip pretty much flat towing a 11 ford fusion 7.25 63mph best I've gotten was 7.5 towing bikes on tlr 70mph
Stump,
Here is the "independent third party", no BS total fuel used/mileage, gallons, etc fuel mileage off of the DDEC with the Pro-Link 9000. First owner towed a long construction trailer and we live in the Sierras with nothing but steep hills. More miles now but same fuel mileage.
Pierce
DBert,
22,300 lbs. seems far too low for a U300.
I have an RV Rating Book (from RV.org) that lists a 1991, U300, 40 ft, SBID floorplan with a curb weight of 25,368 lbs. which is considered very good since that gives a payload of 4632 lbs.
They define curb weight as full of fuel, propane and fresh water. Grey and black tanks empty. No passengers or personal supplies on board. The listing for a 36 footer is 24,331 lbs.
When I weighted our '91, U300, 40 footer, with fuel, fresh water, us and all our stuff we came in at 27,600 lbs. We were full timing then so plenty of stuff in it, so the RV Rating Books seemed to be about right as far as I can tell. If you can it's a good idea to weight each of the four corners separately - it gives you a good idea if you need to redistribute your cargo. The natural distribution of weight on Foretravels is typically very good.
You will want to let the 6V92 rev, it is made to do this, and as others have stated, will run cooler and happier. In marine applications I have read about DDEC 6V92s tuned to 550 HP, cruising at 1900 rpm for hours at a time.
JohnFitz, my first thought going over the scale was the same as yours, I figured it had to weigh more then it was showing! It is the same scale that ODOT uses to officially weigh commercial trucks, and was 'zeroed out' at 000000 lbs before I went over the scale. Front axle was 7,600 lbs and the rear axle was 14,650 lbs. Strange indeed! If I get a chance, I am going to go over a different scale just to see what that will show!
PRFleming- I thought the same thing about the overflow tank hose, so I am going watch it. It had about half a tank of anti-freeze when I checked it before adding coolant, so I am going to watch it and make sure I am not dumping coolant out somehow. I checked the oil and the exhaust for any smell of coolant going out those ways, and was relieved to find zero evidence of that! :)
Pierce- I'm keeping my eyes open for an affordable Pro-Link scan tool, I'd like to have that feature of erasing old codes, and checking for overall mileage, etc. It appeals to my OC nature! (I used to fly a lot when younger, so the old habits of wanting to know fuel flow, how much fuel I have used, temps, and altitude seem to have never left me. My kids think I have a personality disorder) I sure like the sound of 12mpg on the flats with no head wind, but around here there aren't many long flat expanses of highway unless we head south towards Nevada. I am quite pleased with the mileage since for some reason I was expecting a lot less, so even 9.6 was pretty good!
Ken and prFleming- the next time I come to a long uphill grade I will just keep my foot in it and see when and how it downshifts, and run it up to 2,200 rpm just to see how she runs. I used to have a screamin' Jimmy 4-71 in a road grader of mine, you just ran it full throttle and went to work, but it was hard to get used to that high sounding RPM. This 6V92 seems to run very well and sounds good, but I am just used to watching my old 6.9/7.3L IH engines in my Ford pickups I have had over the years so that I would not over-rev them when towing a heavy load going down hill. Now I have a Dodge 6.7L Cummins that I can put in tow/haul mode and let the exhaust brake do it's thing when going down long steep grades when towing a heavy load so I am not worried about a run away. But I will watch that 2,200 redline on the 6V92 when going up or down hills, and just let it run like it is supposed to!
prFleming- I like the brush/deer guard on the front of your coach! I built a similar unit for a Bounder MH we owned, since we have so many deer/vehicle 'interfaces' out in this neck of the woods. When I got the Foretravel, I was pleased to see I could just build the basic guard and use the towing adapters for the structure to sit in.
Dennis
My 1991 U300 with 3:07 gears won't go into 2nd gear above about 35-40 mph, which is good because it would be over 2000 rpm if it did. I've been trained to never rely on safety devices to save equipment from destruction, so I always think about how high the rpm will be before I downshift. If in doubt just don't do it. Brakes are a lot cheaper than an engine overhaul.
As for the engine running cooler at higher rpm, I did a lot of experimenting in Aridzona this summer with temperatures up to 119 degrees and I wasn't able to make the engine any cooler by raising the rpm. I suspect the air is just too hot and no more heat transfer can take place no matter how much more air the fan blows through the radiator. Also consider how thick the radiator is and how hot the air is by the time it reaches the back row of tubes... but fear not for all these things make your radiator an excellent candidate for a surprisingly effective and very affordable radiator sprayer... more about this after I fully test the one I fabricated this summer in extremely hot AZ... (pant, pant)
Your fuel efficiency matches what mine was before I started towing a motorcycle trailer. Recent events lead me to believe my fuel injector(s) may have contributed to a noticeable loss of fuel efficiency. I'll replace them soon and try again.
If you need an 8D battery be sure to check Parts Plus. I've bought three of them and they always have the best price by far. The batteries appear to be very high quality according to my experience with them to this point. The oldest ones I have are two years old currently with no problems yet. The most recent one I bought was earlier this year and it was $145.82 ...which is about $1 per pound! haha... I considered AGM batteries but the cost is so far out of line that I can't justify it. I can replace my batteries several times and still come out ahead. I've read a report from a battery manufacturer that makes both AGM and flooded cell batteries that AGM batteries actually have reduced performance compared to flooded cells in most situations and that RV manufacturers only use them in the newer coaches because they don't require monthly water checks... but I can check a lot of water for those prices... so when a bunch of people on this forum who spent waaay too much on their batteries disagree with me, go ahead and do a few minutes of research on Google to see what the battery manufacturer(s) says. Also consider that all batteries in size 8D are "deep cycle" and there's no point in paying extra, just buy an inexpensive ordinary cranking 8D at Parts Plus and you've got the best RV battery that smart money can buy. I did quite a bit of research to verify this a couple of years ago, but don't believe me cuz you can easily prove it to yourself with Google... Just for the record I installed my first AGM battery in my motorcycle a few days ago, but it cost the same as a flooded cell and I don't have to constantly check the water in the tiny battery anymore so in that case it was worthwhile.
@Dennis Don't misconstrue what I'm saying about engine rpm. A lead foot is not the proper driving method for hills. In the hills you want to keep a close eye on the engine temp gauge. What I should have said is that rpms don't kill 6v92's overheating does! Since yours is the 300hp (I'm assuming this since it's a 91' don't think FOT bumped the hp to 350 until 92') overheating may not be as big an issue but you still want to stay on top of it. Generally foot to the floor generates the maximum amount of heat. It's better to have the throttle about a inch or so from the floor. If the engine is lugging with the throttle there or even to the floor it's time to slow down and downshift. You mentioned cresting the hill at 42 mph. I don't think you can go into 2nd at that speed. One of the coolest things about the Allison is it won't let you do really stupid stuff. Say requesting 2nd gear at 42 mph. It will eventually honor your request for 2nd but only after your speed has dropped low enough that you won't over-rev the engine. If I need 2nd I'll request it then slowly let up on the throttle until the coach has slowed enough that the Allison will allow it. After the shift is complete I floor it to keep as much momentum as I can. All with an eye on the temp gauge. :)
If while climbing your engine temps start rising that's a clue you need to downshift. It all depends on what the road ahead looks like. If you are in sight of the summit and your temps are below 200º you are probably ok to continue but if no summit in sight and you are approaching 200º downshift and ease off the throttle until it downshifts. Do this as often as required even if it means 10 mph in first gear. Just pull into the slow lane and put your flashers on. No embarrassment in that. The embarrassment is when you're the guy at the side of the road with an overheated or blown engine!
Sorry don't mean to lecture but this is important stuff! :)
On to happier subjects since you are in Oregon if you travel a few of the back highways look for a closed weigh station. Usually if you just pull in the scales are still operational and they have an led display on a post in front of you. Just pull up slowly until you see your weight on the display. Write it down then pull up and weigh your rear axle. If you want to get crazy circle around and just put your passenger wheel on the scale and subtract it from the total weight to get your individual wheel weights. Gotta love Oregon. No sales tax & free weigh stations!
see ya
ken
Some one mentioned to me about detroits using misters on the radiators?
Used them for years on 8v71's. Depending on ambient temps, but a 5-10 sec. burst, will drop cooling water temps 10 degrees. Generally only need it when climbing. Do not think I used more than 10 gallons any given day.
Problem is, you generally have to remove nozzles and soak in ospho, every month or so, to keep clean.
@Bob Several of us have added misters to our radiators. I've been planning a write up for some time but life keeps getting in the way. :( I'll just tease you a with a picture.
see ya
ken
On the subject of radiators, an often overlooked maintenance is to backwash the radiator to keep it clean for good airflow. I have an outside hot water faucet and every fall before winter storage I spray hot water from the outside in. My son watches inside to guide me and keep from spraying too much on the engine. The fan stops most of the spray.
Since the cooling fans "suck", I would think "backwash" would mean to spray from inside (the engine compartment) out?
Right, depends on the coach year I think, on the coaches with rear radiator, the airflow is out the back. Key is to wash opposite the airflow...Also, I'm thinking the side radiator coaches don't accumulate as much road dust.
Good in theory,
But, the "cooling package" is made up of multiple layers, which make washing from BOTH sides the practical way to do it. At a minimum, you have the CAC (Charge Air Cooler) and radiator.
@Jim,
That's why I used cheap 1/4" tubing and drilled 1/16" holes instead of nozzles. It would cost me all of 1 or 2 bucks to replace all the hose you see in the picture. So far works great. Just have it hooked into the pressure side of the fresh water pump with a 12v 1/4" N/C solenoid controlled by a dash switch.
Here is the one I used. This example is a Normally Open you need a Normally Closed for this project. Couldn't find a N/C on ebay at the moment that looked like the one I installed. There are plenty of N/C solenoids but they are a different design. They should work just as well. I liked this one because it has push in connectors and I didn't have to buy extra fittings.
1 4" 12VDC Electric Solenoid Valve Push in Connectors Normally Open 12 Volt... (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-12VDC-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-Push-In-Connectors-Normally-Open-12-volt-DC-/300975843863?hash=item46138eea17)
see ya
ken
On these mister setups, do you use distilled water to minimize mineral buildup on the cooling fins?
I guess you could, means separate tank and pump. Do not think any more buildup than rain or running on wet roads.
I use the misting nozzles [home depot, ebay etc.] because they produce a very fine mist in a wide pattern that evaporates immediately when the mist hits the radiator. I have tried pvc pipe with tiny hole drilled it, but found a lot of the water just ran down the fins and to the ground. This caused me to use a lot of water. The water from the misters is fully evaporated on the radiator fins, which leads me to think, the best heat transfer rate for the gallon.
I considered using misters for my radiator sprayer but the radiator is so thick and hot that hardly any water makes it out the back of the coach in liquid form, almost all of it evaporates. I drilled holes in plastic tubing with the tiniest drill bit I have and it works way better than I expected. I need some of the holes to plug up with calcite because I got a little carried away and drilled a few too many holes. I pumped over 25 gallons of water through the radiator sprayer in half a day of driving through the Rockies and over the continental divide with my foot to the floor all the way up and a big smile on my face... especially after suffering all summer without the sprayer to that point.
Try toothpicks; if you are really frugal, used toothpicks probably work.
Trent
...you know me too well! :))
On the long pull out of Farewell Bend on I-84 headed east when I topped out at 42 mph at the top of the grade, my engine temp stayed at 180, outside temp was about 70-75 that evening, and the trans temp was also down where it is most of the time.
I too have read a lot about keeping the radiator clean, especially with a DD which sometimes tends to leak/spit oil which collects dust as it 'sprays' thru the radiator ::) so I have sprayed water thru the radiator and washed quit a bit of crud out of it.
Anyway, overall I think the DD handles the road, heat, long grades, etc rather well. I mentioned that I was rather impressed with the mileage on the first outing of 9.6 mpg climbing a lot of grades with a headwind.
Lately, I have been helping the widow of a friend of mine who passed away a couple of years ago sell off some of their vehicles, antique tractors, trailers, hot rods, etc. They were well known car collectors in the PNW, and had a large collection of street rods, and antique cars. Recently she decided to sell their 2000 Vogue Featherlite luxury 45 ft coach, powered by a 500hp 3406 Cat with the 6-spd Allison. This is a big coach with a large slide, tag axle, and much heavier then my U300 I'm sure. It's along the lines of such coaches as the Newell, Prevost, Blue Bird, etc. I have been cleaning it up, sorting things out, etc and noticed today that it has some sort of engine info reader on the dash, so I took a picture of it that shows the lifetime overall fuel mileage thus far at about 24K original miles. Now, my friend would often tow a 24 ft car hauling trailer behind it with some type of car he bought at an auction or one he was taking to a show so I am sure that helped to lower the overall average. And owning many large over-the-road trucks and heavy equipment, he liked to move right along! And it does have the power, even for such a big coach, to get right up and move along! 8) But then it should, having about 200 hp more then my DD. But I will always pass that Vogue at the pumps!
However, right about now I am feeling pretty smug about my better fuel mileage ;D, pretty smug indeed!
...wait until you compare your fuel efficiency to a pickup truck pulling a big fifth wheel ...and be sure to ask them what their maximum range is between fillups right after they tell you their fuel mileage :)