I have drained the fuel (20 gallons), replaced the fuel filters (4) times after putting in 42 gallons of new fuel and using a "killer" dose of Biocide.
Took the coach on a round trip of 62 miles, changed the filters at the 31 mile destination and before we left. Still runs like blazes, still blowing light blue exhaust, sucking fuel like crazy. It can climb all the way up to 72 MPH and then I feel the engine stumble and power drops off quickly for awhile, then will take off again.
It starts in less than one second, but sometimes it misses until warmed up.
Any ideas? Injectors? Are they mechanical, in other words not electronically controlled, so they malfunction intermittently?
Best to find one of the old-timers who remembers the 8.2. Very different than any other Detroit Diesel.
I don't recall any 8.2 experts on the Foreforum, hope I am incorrect.
I have never heard of a "random" problem you describe. Why she sucks fuel is perplexing, as I've blown a couple of turbos and fuel consumption was not noticed, but it seems to me the color of smoke would indicate a turbo problem. Are you burning oil? What's the mileage? Have the injectors ever been checked ? Has the "rack" ever been run? Have the valves ever been adjusted? Good luck, it's a head scratcher!
On my Duramax, I was sucking fuel and blowing a blue smoke and it was the injectors that were cracked. I had to replace all of them.
There seem to be online forums for just about everything these days, and so I suspect a Google search would find at least one that has information on the 8.2.
Have you done an oil analysis? Mainly, to check if fuel or coolant is contaminating the oil.
8.2, depending on years, did have some head gasket problems.
It's different than a normal 2stroke detroit, but not that different. Still uses unit injectors.
The miss you speak off sounds like an injector. The blue haze could be leaking fuel.
I know a guy (a great DD mechanic) has a leaking failed injector blow a hole in his piston. I'd stop running it until you adress the probelm.
A IR temp gun at idle on each exhaust manifold by the head can tell if you have a dead hole.
based on your description of the fuel drained, you absolutely had a fuel problem. You may still have a clogged pickup, crap stuck somewhere in the system, or even injector damage from whatever it was burning. I find it very unlikely that your engine is toast. Perhaps an injector, the head pressure pump, or something else is damaged.
The 8.2 is not so different from other detroits, as far as the fuel system goes. I would start by blowing out the lines, draining the tank again, and making sure everything is clean, with no air leaks or crap stuck anywhere.
When I blew my first turbo with the Isuzu and started calling around (pre-google) everyone asked " the color of the smoke". Seems like someone would have invented a color chart as it's a subtle difference that helps troubleshooting. Not to stray from the OP, but case-in-point: a OM coach was in this a.m. with "blue-grey smoke" and eating oil. CAT told him he had worn rings and a re-build was in order. I told him to get a second opinion because that smoke looked like a bad turbo!
Thanks for the replies.
Engine has 79,450 miles on it. Antifreeze color is still original bright green and level indicators on the radiator show both glasses as full. Oil registers on the dipstick just under full. Oil pressure at startup cold idle reads 75 PSI on the dash. After warmup idle pressure is 25 PSI. While going down the road pressure is 50 PSI or better.
Engine idles very smoothly after warmup, and starts quickly cold or hot. Slowly or quickly rev it up to 1500 RPM and MOST of the time it responds well & returns to smooth idle. If it doesn't then the very light blue smoke is visible.
Oil is Shell Rotella 15W-40.
Have changed both fuel filters four times since draining the tank. No algae found in last two changes. I have found it is less messy the last two times to punch a hole in the bottom of the filter and let the fuel drain out before removing the filter. The diesel fuel appears clear and same color as new. No algae.
The DW followed me home (31 miles) and she said the exhaust spewed light blue smoke all the way and she could see "wavy" lines like the heat waves on the highway coming out of the exhaust pipe.
Today I am going to visit the three places I know around here that work on diesels and hope I find an old 8.2 mechanic. Wish me luck.
Sounds like an injector problem.
Just trying to educate myself here... In the case of a (diesel) injector plugged up or partially blocked by unknown "crud", do the "fuel injector cleaner" chemicals sold at parts stores/truck stops have any real benefit, or are they just Snake Oil? Just wondering, in case we ever encounter the same type of problem.
More likely is damage to the injector or nozzle from water or whatever other nastiness was in his fuel. chemicals will do nothing.
Just returned from K&S Injection service. They do Cummins and Cat, etc, but prefer not to do my old engine. The desk service manager told us that they had an 8.2 "Fuelsipper" expert they use over east of here about 20 miles. Gonna call him today.
Will post results of conversation, if any.
Wouldn't you know--the DD "Fuelsipper" expert is in Texas!! By Dallas/Fort Worth. Will be home Sunday night and will call Monday AM.
Agree with Matt that one or more injectors may be damaged. Blue smoke may be a result of the failure. Injection cleaners work great for deposits but water/steam expansion can blow off the tips of some types of injectors. In this case, only replacement will cure the problem.
This is a mechanical engine so no diagnostic reader will work.
If temperature is normal, this may be your problem. Water in the fuel can also damage the pistons in Bosch style injection pumps. Return valve may also not be working properly not allowing spec internal pressure in the pump.
Another reason to keep checking the sight glass at the bottom of your primary filter. If you don't have one, buy a filter with the replaceable sight glass at the bottom. Does no good unless viewed frequently.
Pierce
I believe the 8.2 liter 4 stroke is known as the "Fuel Pincher".
And, yes, you need to get it to a guy who knows the 8.2.
Do not think your 8.2 is toast, From what I read, would guess just a case of poor/lousey fuel & injectors that need cleaned / adjusted. I would ask James Holder at Tenn RV, I understand he is a long time 8.2 enthusiast.
So far, two strikes, maybe three. Went to two different truck repair facilities---Kenworth and Truck Country. Both turned me down. (Truck Country, after we even took the coach down to their facility) They just called and backed out so come & get the coach.
The 8.2T expert promised (Sunday evening on the phone) that he would stop by Monday. Never showed or called.
Starting to get VERY worried. :'( :'(
Have you called James Holder at TN RV?
Good news: Still could be something SIMPLE.
Bad news: Promise... what Promise............ If I FEEL LIKE IT, I will do what I promised.
Remind us where you are-- perhaps we can recommend an "old timer" in your area who has 8.2 experience.
Jeff,
What he really needs is an OLD-TIMER who remembers the 8.2 engine. This is NOT something for an RV dealer-- unless James can recommend someone familiar with that engine.
Call Leid Diesel Service 717-776-7725 ask for Timothy. They are in Pa. I have talked to him a few times and if he can't help you I'm sure he knows someone that can. He knows his ....!
Bret, I think what you do not understand is James Holder has a lot of hands on sperience on the 8.2 and he loves them.
He is not your average service writer.
He & I have shared lots of DDC notes.
Might rethink it.?
Brett, if you draw a line from Green Bay, WI (you know, that team that wears green & gold uniforms?) to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and then stop halfway along that line you would be quite close to Wausau, WI. We live just east of Wausau, in Weston.
Sure would appreciate any leads for someone to fix my boat anchor. It did run so well on our two trips to TX, and we do love the coach and the comments we get re it.
A real shot in the dark here, but are you anywhere near an Interstate Power location? Chris and Cherie (Technomadia) used their Billings, MT location for a DD out of frame rebuild on their classic bus conversion, Zephyr. Interstate > Home (http://www.istate.com)
Michelle, closest would be in Iron Mountain, but don't know if the engine could make it that far.
Have you gone on any of the diesel forums? I saw they said some had problems with head gaskets, but believe yours already has the larger head bolts so should not be an issue, think it is fuel related as started with bad fuel. There are many sites that have service manuals for this engine. Thought maybe someone on one of the forums might know where there is someone who knows that engine.
The 8.2 can be made into a very fine reliable engine I am told, I have very little sperience with them. Know they have gotten a lot of bad mouthing, some deserved. Do not think Tenn RV works on them. But there are a very few who do know and love those critters.
Me, I used to love the 2 stroke DDC, but this ISM500 is winning me over fast.
I had done a "kill" dose of biocide about a week ago. Today, while taking the coach down to Truck Country, the engine ran a tiny bit better, didn't bog down more than once on the way down and once on the way home tonite. But, BUT, still the light blue exhaust which indicates something is still wrong.
I worked on a grandvilla with a 3208 that had algae and put in a biocide it was driven about 150 miles then would not run, went down and changed both fuel filters and drove it back. I also had 2 extra sets just in case. On our 84 foretravel with the 3208 I always carried 2 sets of fuel filters at all times as it had had algae in it when we bought it. When it would start to bog down, stop and change the primary filter and sometimes also the secondary filter. Put on about 20,000 miles on it
The last time I changed the filters there was no apparent algae, either in the filters or in the fluid I drained from the filters.
But the blue exhaust continues.
8.2 has similar injection system as the 2smokes. I think you just need a slightly different tool.
Did you check oil for fuel contamination? Still sounds like injector problem to me. But what the heck do I know.
After early 80's the 8.2 got bigger head bolts and most of the "problems" were resolved. People either love them or hate them. The are sensitive to overheating, I think.
You can try the website [www.nttsbreakdown.com] to find different repair facilities in your area. Customer service 800-288-0002
Directory provides drivers and dispatchers current information on repair shops nationwide including those offering 24 hour road service. We had a diesel mechanic give us this website when we were stranded along the road near Hinckley, CA (Erin Brockovich territory, and near the middle-of-nowhere).
Thanks for the leads everyone!! Absolutely love everybody on our website!!
Oil level is constant, no change in color or viscosity as far as I can tell.
Got a lead/email from Mike Betti in Iron Mountain. (interstate Power Systems). Going to call him this morning. He is quite a ways away but will pass problems to him as he said that they do & did work on the 8.2T engines.
Also going to call the school bus company in our area.
You might check with your local electric company as a lot of the bucket trucks made back during the fuel crunch had the 8.2. Either there shop mechanic was trained to work on them or they should know who they farmed the work out to. In fact some of our local REA coops still have some of those bucket trucks.
Pamela & Mike
Persistence pays off!!
First called the service manager at King's Campers where we bought the coach. He referred me to ELM Truck Repair. They haven't worked on engines like our in years and no longer have the tools. They referred me to a firm southwest of Antigo, quite close to home, where the owner (Dick Skarlupka) said that "Yes, we have worked on these engines a lot. There are quite a few used in field, stationary applications also." He--HE referred to my engine as the "Fuel Pincher" so he is knowledgeable re our engine.
They are quite busy now, but will call when he sees an opening--about 2-1/2 weeks.
Thanks again everybody.
Well, we went for a ride just to see how to find the 8.2T mechanic and not get on some really hilly roads that a sick engine couldn't climb.
Found the place. They had a county dump truck inside being worked on, a different county fire truck ready for service, and several logging trucks waiting. Also inside was a VERY large diesel farm tractor in the back and a large red painted diesel on an engine support dolly.
Didn't get to talk to Dick, as he was gone somewhere, but did talk to the young mechanic and he knew nothing about my conversation with Dick but did say that they did work on quite a few of 8.2T DD engines.
Confidence level went up but now getting impatient about getting our "baby" off the sick list and back to full health. Only 1-1/2 weeks left to wait before surgery--I hope!!
Sounds like it may be worth the wait, get the benefit of their expertise rather than someone else learning on your dime. Maybe camp in their parking lot so they don't forget about you :))
If it has a dead miss, I'd check the exhaust manifold (temp) at each cylinder.
At least you will know which cylinder is giving you trouble.
Do you have a wet exhaust? If so, you have a bad injector and trouble if you continue driving.
If you have a plugged injector the exhaust pipe will not be wet and that cylinder will be cold and show up as a dead cylinder.
Smell the exhaust to determine going on.
Blue is an oil issue. Black is excessive burned fuel. Light grey is unburned fuel.
The last thing I'd do is keep driving it until it's repaired rather than take a chance on hurting something (like a piston).
Pull the injectors if you get this far and have them tested. If you find a out of spec injector, fix it (only) and put it back together.
Go to ebay and look for a set of new/rebuilt injectors. As old as the production date on the 8.2 is, a question to a few of the injection services may find you a set of new injectors.
The PN for the injector you MAY be needing is 5229850 w/an R if it's rebuilt (aprox. $80.00 per)
Good Luck.. pc
Pocketchange, thanks for the information.
Now I am really confused! The crankcase oil level remains at the full mark. The radiator two indicator bulbs show radiator is full. The exhaust smells very, very strong diesel fuel, and the exhaust is, when seen, a light blue, almost white, in color. Thin enough to see thru until the engine "hiccups" and then slows down to about 30 MOH. Then exhaust volume increases until I cannot see thru it.
Idling here in the driveway exhaust is clear but smells strong of diesel.
I think today I will check exhaust temp at the exhaust manifolds & see if there is/are "cold" exhaust ports. (guess I won't use my fingertips, tho) >:D >:D
Did you get the DD fixed? Very interested to hear how it ended up.
Sorry, no, not yet, still waiting for the mechanic to call and tell me to bring it up. I did call him a week ago and he told me he hadn't called because his shop is still full and probably this week.
I did start the coach about a week ago and let it warm up for about 45 minutes. I then checked exhaust manifold temps with my remote thermal sensor. 1 & 2 were running much colder than 7 & 8. Temps seemed to get higher the further towards the transmission I went.
Still fires right up when starting, revs up to 1500 rpm with no problem, then starts running rough. Strong diesel fuel smell at all times. Oil level remains constant. Same with radiator antifreeze level. No puddles on the ground other than rain.
Right after this engine problem started the DW commented that she thought the engine was putting out a lot of "lifter" noise. Me, in my "infinite" wisdom replied that the engine was cold and that was typical diesel noise and she hadn't heard it before because she had never stood that near to the back end of the coach. (Sure hope I won't have to eat my words!!)
Try pulling off your valve covers and look for anything unusual on a cylinder compared to the other cylinders,had a similar
problem with a generator offshore a few years back,will do some research.
Take temp gun readings while it is running rough.
John44, thanks for the suggestion but I will wait & let the mechanic pull the covers. To take of the rocker arm covers I would have to remove the Harrison AC compressor, the alternator, and assorted air intake hoses. And if I do find something wrong I would just have to put everything back just so I could drive the coach 28 miles to have the mechanic repeat what I did. AND, AND--my back and my shoulder tell me to just say:"NO!"
We have snow flurries in our forecast for this week and the coach sits outside so another reason to let the mechanic work on it.
Good point, I had a service & repair business for 30 years and if someone came into the shop with a bucket of parts, what could have been a quick fix suddenly became spendy! :'(
You touched it and tore it apart and then brought to me usually meant I charged more LOL
Never underestimate the ability of the DW to recognize that "something has changed". My wife has recognized more than one problem in our car, around the house, and in the coach, simply because "it sounds different". She doesn't have
any idea what has changed, or why (that's my job), but she sure as heck can tell "it" sounds "funny".
PS: hope your problem turns out to be something simple (and cheap) to fix!
Thanks Chuck.
Because it is a little known fact that wives live longer than husbands ( >:D ), and there are mechanics that do take advantage of people who are ignorant of the mechanical side of their vehicle, I have, for almost our entire married life (52+ years), insisted that the DW understand and see what I am doing--and why-- to our vehicles.
I heard enough about how her mother was taken advantage of due to her ignorance about her car.
Did you ever get this diagnosed? Curious what the issue is/was!
Matt, the coach is at the mechanic's shop. I am not pushing the issue as we won't be needing it until spring. It has to sit outside somewhere and his place is as good as ours until after the first of the year. Gives us room for parking when all our kids, grandkids, and great-grandkids show up Christmas Day.
THEN I will start gently pushing. Push too hard and the bill could go up real fast, seeing as how he was the only 8.2 expert I could find around here.
Not only could the bill go up, but you could go to the bottom of the list. Many of my ex-clients learned that lesson, the hard way. If the mechanic is a drinking man, a jug for the holidays would grease the skids.
His wife is the receptionist, bookkeeper, answers the phones, gopher, cook & bottle washer. There is the owner (head mechanic) his son, and the wife (the only ones I have met in the office, but others out in the shop). Don't think she would appreciate the booze. They are a farming family that evolved into a diesel engine repair facility due to Dick's expertise. They have a complete machine shop, along with a large building for mechanical work and a parts building on their now smaller operation farm.
Walk softly then, sounds like you've found the right place: they are getting few and far between. ^.^d
As a mechanic I can tell you that at the retail shops where I worked the customers that brought something at Christmas seemed to be remembered by the people on the floor. It doesn't take much, a tin of cookies, two bite brownies, pizza lunch or even some donuts go over really well.
Six years ago, when the transmission on our "C" went out and was repaired we sent gift cards from Menards to the owner of the transmission shop and his employees after we got the "C" back and before Christmas.
When they went to rebuild they discovered that the transmission had been rebuilt before but Loctite was not used to hold the valve body in place, so only (1) 1/4-20 bolt was holding the valve body up in place!!
When the transmission went out again(!) (their mistake) they paid for towing and repair---twice!!
One of their guys put an inline filter in backwards--so the back end of the transmission never got lubricated.
Rebuilt closer to home but the new builder was told not to replace the expensive, bigger, center bearing. It failed!
Third time (for us)-center bearing failed--first shop sent a crew and they rebuilt it overnight--towing was paid, and first shop paid to have transmission removed and replaced after the rebuild.
We then , the following spring, traded it for our '89 GV
Wonder why?
But did you send cookies this year?? ( I meant to the D/D shop your coach is at now, sorry)
Naw, that was six years ago!! But, when we went back for the one year checkup, we took in four 16" dia "cookies" with mozzarella, pepperoni, and mushrooms on them.
By the way, our coach is sitting at the mechanics and won't be worked on until after the first of the year. I called them last Wednesday and they told me that they were trying to get other customer's vehicles out before the end of the year so their customers could close out their books. I said OK as our coach is recreational whereas their customers' vehicles were business.
Just called about our coach. Got some really disgusting news!!
The injectors and fuel rail and valves are just fine!! They didn't even have to go into the engine. The mechanic (Ken) said he drove the coach down to "the corner" and the coach went like a bat out of hell, but then he turned around and the engine stumbled and barely ran.
They got the coach back inside, checked the fuel pressure (which should be around 50-75 PSI) and only got one pound--1#!!!
They took out the fuel check valve and found it plugged with dirt and also cross threaded. Got a new check valve out of Butler, WI.
Ken said we could pick it up late today. Told him NO WAY. Roads are ice covered & slippery so just go ahead and repack the front wheels.
Don't know the damages ($$$) yet, but we won't pick the coach up until next week.
YAHOO YAHOO YAHOO ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
WONDERFUL NEWS!!!!
Merry Xmas! I know you have been sweating this.
Brett
Sure happy that you found a great shop with a mechanic that knows that beast. Congrats indeed. Now go enjoy it.
Great news! Most of us went to the dark side, at least now you know your top-end is in great shape. ^.^d Is it just your engine, or do we ALL have "Fuel Check Valves"?
Great news! Fuel issues are over 90% of diesel problems. Glad the shop was able to figure it out quickly and probably inexpensively. A lot of school buses, medium trucks used that engine with great success.
You will be ready for spring traveling.
Pierce
I don't know, Mike, but Brett would be the one to ask.
Seems to me that, considering the pressure the fuel has to be at that check valves would be mandatory.
By the way, the mechanic (Ken) said our old 8.2 is "one sweet running engine" and no need to touch valves or injectors. Repeating myself? Probably, but DW and I were sweating it being a MAJOR bill!
Here is what an inline Bosch check/return valve looks like as mounted on the pump. Forgot to add to above post.
Pierce
Boy, Brett, slow starting sure wasn't apparent with our engine!! I worried about holding the key in the start position too long! It would start, it seemed, just by turning the key.
DW and I are trying to figure out how she can drive the Vue home, seeing as how her right foot is in a nice fiberglass cast for another two weeks--Plantar Faschitus (sp?) and the coach is 28 miles away.
Hard starting can be caused by dozens of factors even in good engines. Injectors may leak down, that is, allow diesel to leak past the closed injector into the cylinder. As discussed above, the return check valve may be worn or have a weak spring. Air may be leaking into the fuel system. Turbo engines usually have lower compression ratios so don't develop as much cranking heat making it harder for the diesel to explode. Direct injection engines (unlike our generators with pre-combustion chambers and glow plugs) may (Cummins) or may not (Detroit 2 cycles) have heated intake screens to heat the intake air to aid starting. Having a tank of summer fuel in winter will generally add cranking time. Slower cranking from a starting system fault means less compression temperature and slower starting. Or, it might just be too cold and a block heater needed.
You have to smile when you have an engine like Nitehawks that starts instantly. Takes the stress out of winter starts in crowded campgrounds where more reluctant engines send smoke signals to everyone.
Pierce
Glad to hear this is fixed. It may have been a check valve on the suction side too.
Really, the check valves on the discharge (or return) side are probably best to call relief valves or poppet valves. The purpose of them isn't really to prevent backward flow, but to maintain a set pressure before them.
Since this has morphed into a catch all, we only use check valves on return lines when the Cummins PT pump system has the fuel tank above the head. DDC only uses an orfice oh return line to maintain the required 65 +\- psi. On the two strokes.
I figured out a way to get the coach home, towing the Vue---during daylight hours. DW can't drive because of the cast on her right foot. So-o-o, I made a electrical hookup from the new LED lightbar that I put together down to the trailer plugin on the back of the Vue.
I can't run the lights off the coach because I took the 5 to 4 converter off the Blue OX coiled cable in anticipation of installing my brand new LED 17" lights on the coach.
Because the Readybrake attachment actuates the Vue's brakes it will also activate the LED tow lights in addition to the Vue's regular brake lights--including the third light. Just won't have turn signals. If I have to I can turn the park lights on the Vue on. All back county roads with almost zero traffic, three left turns and two right turns and we are in front of our driveway.
Make sure your parking lights stay on without ignition. I thought I could do the same as you on my 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee and after getting a few waves by cars going by me I pulled over and had no parking lights. The Jeep won't let you walk away with lights on after a few minutes it turns them off. I had to turn on my ignition switch and add miles to the odometer the rest of that trip.
Great news Nitehawk! I've been following this thread since you first post. Make sure you buy a powerball ticket with this luck!
Nitehawk,
Good news on your engine and finding out that the fuel check valve could be the only problem with an inexpensive fix. Hopefully that will cure the blue smoke and the internal parts haven't suffered any damage. You were fortunate to find an old school mechanic close by and familiar with that particular engine and honest enough not to take you to the cleaners!
I love to see these older "outdated" engines like yours and mine still running strong with many more miles left to go. In Mississippi a 25 year old RV qualifies as collector's item and qualifies for an antique tag! $26 bucks and a one time fee for life. I still have to wait two years but you are already there!
Jerry
We did buy a Powerball ticket--only got one number plus the powerball number so we only won $4.00--better than nothing.
Coastprt--unfortunately, in Wisconsin I believe the law reads I must have more than one motorhome to qualify for antique plates, and I didn't win the lottery. But I'm going on 74 and would love the antique status for myself. DW would never look that old.
I am going to check further into antique plates. Will report my findings.
Just checked Wisconsin DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and age requirement for motor vehicles is 1945 or older. Guess we are going to have to wait a bit!
Well, the coach is still in the mechanic's shop. Getting the front wheel bearings greased, front disc brakes cleaned, new front seals and now have to get a new Leece-Neville 130 Amp alternator ($332). They suggested an externally excited alternator from China for half the price but I said NO WAY, DAMMIT!!! I prefer something I could get repaired or replaced here in the USA.
They put in a new check valve, dosed the fuel tank with Biobor, and we will probably pick up the coach after the snow is off the roads--maybe Friday.
Total bill--around $1,600.
Total bill: $1661.13 tax included.
Got the "skinny" on the check valve blockage and location.
My check valve is right before the primary filter. The check valve was plugged with what looked like rust flakes and the blockage went back about 3" into the fuel supply hose. They dosed the fuel tank with Valteck bio treatment--this, it turns out, in addition to my kill dose of Biobore! So we now have a full tank. The engine goes great, runs smooth and the pep it had before all this crap started is gone.
The new alternator keeps the batteries charged to 14+ volts. (sure looks purty!)
The front steering seems to feel tighter since they repacked the wheels. I don't know when, if ever, the previous owners ever had it done. New front wheel seals were necessary, along with new hub cap gaskets.
Coach and towed got absolutely filthy coming home. Covered with the road sand the county puts on the roads for traction. So bad that I absolutely had to wash some of it off---and it is 20 degrees outside!! Maybe I'm nuts, but the GV is our "baby" and we like it looking good!!
Tomorrow it gets the propane tank filled.
DW says I--I am not working on the exhaust or the LED mounting on the coach until spring!! Want to bet?
Glad you got it home, the bill sounds reasonable it sounds like you have found the place to go. As for waiting till spring to work on it that would be burning up prime time to get some miles down. Up here the season is too short I wish I had access to work on mine during the winter.
Nitehawk,
Further to Dave M's post, I think James owns a 1983?
http://beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/models/1983_foretravel_ftx_ored_specifications.html
If I'm right, and if the brochure info is correct (a lot of "ifs," I know), then when you need help in the future, make an appointment with Tennessee RV in Knoxville: (865) 933-7213. We realize, of course, you're a good distance away from Knoxville.
Tennessee RV has done good work for Susan & me. I'm overdue posting details and a "thanks" to the Forum. The owner, Roger Sellers, also owns one or two Foretravels. Tennessee RV was one of the seven factory-owned Foretravel dealers, before that structure changed. So, they're not the average RV dealership.
Hope this is some help. Brett, if I'm wrong about specs, then my bad — correct me. You're a huge asset to the Forum and know a LOT more than I ever will.
Thanks, Richard, but I have been in almost weekly touch with James. He is an awesome resource for the 8.2 engine information. We got our coach back last week Thursday and it runs absolutely great now. But, because of the steel fuel tank I am going to have to keep an eye on the check valve and the suction hose preceding the valve right before the primary fuel filter. All the filter changes (8) I made were a waste of time and money because the flakes of rust plugged the check valve and never got to the filter. So, 16 to 18 filters and 35 gallons of diesel fuel and an entire season without venturing out with the coach down the drain, not to mention all the worry and over $1661.13.
Sure is nice to look out and see the coach and know it is ready to go now!! Really getting impatient for spring now.
DW has ANOTHER cast on her right leg again--for another three weeks.
So? Now you know. As I recall, you thought the coach was trashed, NOT. ^.^d
With your tank rust issue, short term answer may be to find an in-line screen that you can put in the fuel line between tank and check valve/primary fuel filter. 30-50 micron or even screen material would be fine. Clear bowl would allow you to see when you need to service it.
Long term, there are companies that "line" steel fuel tanks-- probably more common on boats than RV's. But around the Great Lakes, probably could find someone to do it. Very likely the rust is confined to the bottom and perhaps an inch or two up the sides (where water would settle in the tank). Doubt water got any higher in the tank, and diesel is a pretty good rust preventive. The exception may be upper part of the tank if stored with low fuel level. One of the reasons to always store with full fuel tank-- minimize condensation.
Funny thing was the fact that when I drained the tank (out the bottom/thru the pipe plug hole) I got almost zero flakes or algae. I would open the drain plug and let the fuel run into a 5 gallon pail and have the DW turn on a 12V pump to draw the fuel up into a jury-rigged pail that I put a piece of pipe thru the bottom but the top end 1" up from the bottom of the pail and clamped some screen onto the opening. This pail & pipe fed into a 55 gallon plastic barrel. I did this in order to ascertain if I had water or algae or whatever draining out. Nothing in any quantity at all. Just a few very small flakes but the fuel was cloudy from the Seafoam additive, so I thought that was my problem.
Come spring I think I will do what you recommend, Brett, put in a serviceable filter before the check valve.
Just darn good common practical sense and I sure do appreciate the advice!
Just another demonstration of how valuable an asset Brett, Gary, and the rest of the Foreforum folks are!!
Lining steel tank also common when restoring old neglected motorcycles
It's a big deal in work boats up in the PNW, as well. Most switch over to stainless tanks and add anti-algae as needed. We never used it, HOWEVER, we changed the lower filter every 3K!
Is this line the suction line to the fuel pump?
I suspect you mean aluminum. Stainless steel and diesel do not "play well with each other".
Wondering what the issue between stainless and diesel ? know stainless works great with gasoline, so all ears, Thanks
Dave,
I don't know the chemistry behind it, but in our boats all tanks except diesel are stainless steel. They will not make or install stainless steel for diesel (at least in the 1990's when we were having boats built).
Hopefully someone with a chemistry background can chime in.
A google search turned this up (but no explanation as to why):
This from a firm that specializes in marine tanks: Custom marine fuel tanks for recreational, commercial crafts, U.S. Coast... (http://www.speedytanks.com/index.html)
"Owned and operated by John Gallo since 1978, we are the foremost provider of custom marine tanks at the Jersey Shore. Building for both recreational and commercial crafts, including U.S. Coast Guard inspected vessels, we provide the highest-quality custom-made aluminum gas tanks, steel and aluminum diesel tanks, to ensure your safe and prompt return to the seas and waterways.We also fabricate stainless steel water and holding tanks."Notice only aluminum and steel, not stainless steel for diesel.
So, I join you in being "all ears" for the chemical reasoning behind it.
Yes, I did make a mistake. The work boat tanks, if diesel, ARE aluminum!
"Aluminum alloy 5052 H32 is a popular choice for fuel tanks as it contains adequate magnesium content to allow the material to be pliable enough to meet the needs of the manufacturing process. The majority of diesel tanks manufactured today are made of steel; however truck operators may elect to choose aluminum fuel tanks when replacing older tanks on their vehicles. Aluminum offers advantages of lighter weight and resistance to corrosion."
This quote is from Wikipedia and does not give any chemical reasons other than what is noted.
JohnH
Thanks, just another tidbit of info that I enjoy. I had food grade stainless tanks built for my MCI fresh water ,& grey tanks, 180 @ 120 gal. Will remember that about diesel @ stainless.
Copper fuel lines should not be used for diesel fuel.
Thanks all.
Virtually all offshore oil and fuel transport tanks are 500 gallon stainless steel,these are the tanks that transport fuel from
land to the platforms.They sit on crew boats and are constantly splashed with salt water.Not sure of the blend of steel but they
seem to hold up good.Have also used stainless steel for fuel lines for years and have never seen or heard of a problem.
I don't think there is a chemical reason behind this, it was more an ABYC guideline. Being an industry group that sets standards adopted as law, their reasoning probably has more to do with cost than functionality. This is the same bunch that claims crimps are better than solder and heat shrink, and from a production efficiency and profit standpoint they are right. The USCG dutifully echoes their recommendations. It would be a competitive problem if one boat mfg started advertising their superior vessels using stainless tanks...
Brett/Dave,Aluminum vs. SS Diesel Fuel Tanks: It is not a "chemistry" issue but a "metallurgy" issue:SS Diesel Fuel Storage Tanks are now approved by Coast Guard and ABYC.
Must be 316L or 317L SS (L = Low carbon content) Must be 0.074 or greater thickness, IIRCNo 304 SS is allowedTo meet CG Specs., the chemical composition of the SS must be traceable because foreign imported raw SS materials have become unreliable and have to be treated as suspect.Both SS and Aluminum tanks must be kept dry on the outside, with free air circulating about them. Both materials depend upon a passive corrosion skin layer for long term corrosion protection. Either tank composition, with a damp porous material or wetted surface in contact with it, will suffer from Oxygen starvation and local corrosion will lead to eventual failure.5000 series aluminum is good for fuel, both gas and diesel and for waste water. The advantage of aluminum is it's easier to fabricate, much lighter in weight and less vulnerable to cracking caused by vibration when mounted on a moveable platform. Even though much more expensive to fabricate and much heavier when finished, "Food Grade" stainless steel tanks are still commonly used for water tanks because they impart no taste or odors in the water. But, SS is highly vulnerable to "weld-heat-affected-zone," stress corrosion cracking, and crevice (esp. vibration induced) corrosion cracking. But, common sense tells us that leaks in water tanks are far less catastrophic than leaks in failed fuel tanks. Welded stainless steel tanks don't like point loads, vibration or poor quality control in the welds such as poor weld backside inerting. Improperly inerted, a SS weld will always "sugar" as the weld zone metal composition changes and impurity crevices are formed. These microscopic weld flaw crevice sites become corrosion sites. Those lead to galvanic corrosion cells, that become auto catalytic and rapidly accelerate the corrosion site to failure. So, although SS is much stronger, the raw materials are more expensive and SS is much more expensive to fabricate. Therefore, SS is fourth or fifth on the list of desirability.Rotationally formed polyethylene tanks are the least expensive, are impervious to ethanol and other corrosive attacks and are the most widely used in smaller tanks. But they suffer from lack of structural strength, baffles and machinable ports/bosses for fittings and service. So they are far less desirable in larger tanks.Thus, where moveable platform strength and lower cost matters, most big diesel fuel storage tanks continue to be made from Aluminum. When raw material and (proper) fabrication costs are no object, 316L, 317L SS and Monel are the choice for strength and longevity.Neal
Excellent, Neal.
Thanks for the indepth explanation.
Brett
How clean is your air cleaner?
The filter element in my air cleaner I replaced less than 5000 miles ago. The air cleaner was never the problem. The problem was rust and algae flakes in the suction line right before the check valve. The line is 5/8" Inside diameter and the chips had backed up around 3" into the suction line. Had 1# of fuel pressure at the fuel rail. After replacing the check valve and removing the blockage the fuel pressure is now 75#.
A week ago I started the coach--after it had sat for two weeks--without using the block heater, and it started right away in 27 degree temps!!
The problem has been solved. I believe most, if not all, of the loose flakes are out of the system, seeing as how I had totally drained the fuel tank and still had the problem until the suction line and check valve were cleaned.
I have now installed the alternator/battery monitors and the new rear LED 17" long additional tail lights and everything is working great.
Oh, by the way, the air cleaner indicator reads a nice bright green.
Norm, it's a bit late to get to Texas for winter 2015-16. However, Texas can pretty nice in the spring. Come on down during "bluebonnet season," then get back home for that nice northern summer. Pack up Rocket and the Demolition Lady and roll!
It's great that your engine is not "toast." I sounds like it was just starved for fuel. Fuel is relatively cheap now, so feed the machine and enjoy the adventures.