Could the group please tell me where the official DOT/ EPA conformity/certification data plate is on FT's. Specifically a late 90's U320. I found this FT for sale in Canada. The owner bought it in Texas. But I want to be sure that before I go look at it, That the owner is able to find and verify that it has this certification. Otherwise I'd be wasting his and my time.
Thanks
It seems to me the owner should know where the data plate is located,he bought it and imported it to Canada..
Only required on gas powered vehicles coming into the U.S. Diesel has no EPA requirements.
Self deleted off topic post.
EPA means emissions rating. Let me ask you this.........WHERE do you take a diesel to get it smogged?
You don't. It is manufactured to be a low emissions engine, yes, diesel. There are several tiers of compliance, we are now at tier 3 which is an exotic common rail, highly computerized engine. These regs are for importation, not getting a state inspection certificate.
If you follow the news you will see Volkswagen is in some hot water over this very issue.
What a dunderhead I am. Members Roger & Susan pointed out that the data plate with the weights show whether it is in compliance or not. I was so focused on weight capacities and model/ build numbers that I failed to see that it was hiding in plain sight.
Sounds like you've got it worked out, good luck with the hunt and repatriation.
If you obtain this vehicle I think we all would be interested in what dance you had to do at the border.
One last word on this and I'll comment no more. Verify that the US will allow importation of a vehicle that complies with 1999 (or whatever year is on data plate as year of emissions compliance) emissions standards.
Just got verification that the coach is a US spec vehicle. It was for sale at Encore RV in Nac. It just so happened that a Canadian gentleman bought it and imported it to Canada. A vehicle does not loose it's US certification because it went north. Sure, There might be some forms to fill out. But it does not have to be re-certified. I believe customs just needs to verify that it was built for the US standards of the year it was built.
I'm going to call the customs office in Blaine, Wa. to ask a few more questions and then I will report back to the group.
If I buy this coach and all goes well, Then perhaps we need to have the moderators post the process as a permanent guide for others to use.
Having imported 4 Fts from US it is a very easy process and Customs told me that it is just a piece of paperwork to get it back in. All FTs qualify for import to canada, and very few manufacturers can say that, even prevost have to be specific years. Anything over 15 yrs old (and any make) do not have to meet import standards, less than that have to be inspected ans within 45 days have to be brought to recent standards.
JohnH
I am a Canadian customs broker.
If you need help of a US Customs broker I recommend
Jones & Jones Customs Brokers
Blaine, Wash
360-332-6090
Ask for Kim Jones.
This is only for people who need the help of a US broker.,
If your an individual you can import goods in both directions without a customs broker.
Steve
Summit Customs Brokers
British Columbia.
Just a bit of paperwork, That's kind of what I figured it would be John. But down here it's a 25 year window of having to meet standards when bringing a vehicle in.
I have imported two vehicles. One from Europe and a car trailer from Express customs (Canada) The trailer was very easy. I was queued in line longer than it took for the actual process which took about 20-25 minutes. Just needed the MSO, statement from the builder that it meets US safety specs, And a bill of sale. No duties were owed. In fact Washington state credited me for the Canadian taxes I paid. So I didn't even owe Washington sales tax. RESULT!!!!
When I brought my Caterham back from Europe, It was 32 yrs old and exempt. So as you say, It was just 1-2 pieces of paper and a rather detailed inspection to check for drugs and stolen diamonds and such.
Thanks Steve
This would be a individual import.
Ha! We quit going into B.C. because of all the border hassles into my home Province. For some unfathomable reason, the Airstream seemed to have "Search me" written on the roof! They only noticed the grey pony tail later, which made it worse. I think the border "guards" were envious of the coach. They thought they had us one time when they found a pound of white substance (ah ha!.) Wife explained we'd just been at the health food store and it was bulk flour. Going back to The States is a snap! Last time we cleared U.S. customs, the guy said, "I didn't know Boeing made a motor home!
Here is the question I asked and their response. I then asked if the Manufacturers data plate was sufficient. NO was their response. That tell me that if the current Canadian owner has the old registration papers, Then all is golden. If not I'll have to call Foretravel or Encore RV for papers attesting to the coaches origins. So all in all, Not to bad to repatriate the coach.
What I found odd was that customs wouldn't accept the "official" data plate that is required by law. So I have to think. Why is it there if the government that requires it doesn't recognize it.
I pasted the email conversation below.
Good day to all.
I am interested in how I go about reimporting a US made vehicle that was manufactured in the USA and was sold new in the USA. Said vehicle (a motorhome) was bought from a Texas RV dealer by a Canadian citizen and was exported from America and imported to Canada.
If I were to buy this vehicle, What do I have to do to repatriate it to the USA. Any duties?
Thank you very much for your time & your service
On Sep 25, 2015, at 11:38 AM, BLAINE-OFO EXPORT <BLAINE-OFOEXPORT@cbp.dhs.gov> wrote:
You can re import the vehicle to the United States. You need to obtain a documentation that this vehicle was made in the United States. Perhaps an old title or registration. There should be no duty for the said vehicle if it is made in the United States. Hope this answer your question. Thank you
From: jerry fincher [mailto:k12lt@me.com]
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 11:46 AM
To: BLAINE-OFO EXPORT <BLAINE-OFOEXPORT@cbp.dhs.gov>
Subject: Re: buying a US spec RV in Canada & repatriating it
Would the manufacturers data plate showing the Vin, Model, Manufactures address be OK? I'm not sure if the BC government took possession of the old documents or not. I'll ask the current owner.
Thanks
No
Will your insurance Co. give you a rider so as to bring her back to Wally World?
Encore no longer exists, but FOT does. They did have a fire at FOT a while back, hope it doesn't effect your search
I don't think most insurers even consider Canada a foreign country anymore do they? But I'll check. I can buy temp insurance when I get temp plates in Ca. for a day or two to get back to wally world. That's what I did with the trailer I bought.
The gentleman that is storing and helping the current owner with the sale/ test drives is off to AZ on Oct 8th. So no access to the coach after that. My wife can't take any holiday from the US Army corp of Engineers till October 1 (end of year budget stuff). Between getting up there to look at it. Coming back to transfer funds from a retirement account. (can take two weeks) as it's a Government TSP retirement account, Getting the papers that customs wants. So even if I buy it. I doubt that a full deal could happen in one week. I think the bast that can happen is a deposit, Go back later with cash, Transfer ownership, Secure forms for customs, Then wait till May to bring her back to Walla Walla.
You have the patience of Jobe! As we all know, the weather could close in anytime up there, you will have a learning curve driving the new coach, anyway, no sense piling on ice and snow to the mix, especially in the Columbia River Gorge up I-84. Take some pics! M
Well I'm not quite as mad as it would seem. We have very limited indoor RV storage in the area. They are a first come first served business and they fill up fast this time of year. I don't want the coach outside all winter. So why not leave it in it's cozy little house on the Island. and I save the $130 per month fee. Then if all goes well, We will just do a long holiday with the new coach on the Island after we pick it up in the spring to get used to it. Brilliant no? Even if my name weren't Jobe. I'd likely not have a choice as the garage key will be in AZ. starting on the 8th of October. So when you have lemons you make lemonade.
Of course I first must buy it. But it's good fun anyway to count chickens before they hatch.
As far as FT is concerned just ask them for a letter stating that the coach (vin#) was built in !! and meets all vehicle Rv requirements. I got these letters same day by Fax from them when I needed them. The are used to doing it so no problems there.
Depending on when it was brought into Canada (if it was not more than the 15 yrs old) there will be a decal next to plate by driver with a # on it and stating it was imported so that should help as those files will be stored in Govt office showing the original owner etc. The present owner may still have the original Title ( I keep them). Once over the Border in Washington you can get a temp permit to move it that is very cheap. 3 day permit $21.
JohnH
My experience with Customs on both side of the border is.
Ask ten different officers the same question and you will get ten different answers.
Ask ten officers the same question when they are all together and sit back and watch them fight about who's right.
Steve
Guesss I posted this in wrong thread. anywhere here I paste:
I bought my u270 in canada. Previous ownered bought it from MOT and imported it to Canada a few years prior. The got the letters from FT and cummins saying it met all the USA specs, but the letters really werent needed. At the border, all the customs agent looked for was the USA data plate. Took about 20 minutes total. For my state, I needed to make sure I had a title and the correct stamped US Customs forms from the crossing.
Oh, I personally had to bring it across the border. Otherwise, one must hire a broker or something.
don't feel bad krush i was right behind you and hit the same pot hole. ;D
as you can see in post #16. i asked customs about the data plate (which is requierd by law) that id's a vehicle as to it's orgins and specifications. they said NO they won't accept it.
i will push this question up to the next level. as i think the field officer is mistaken.
only the government would mandate a vehicle id tag so they could validate the vehicles id, then refuse to accept said tag as a valid vehicle id. :facepalm:
Question
I have seen lots of pictures of the Foretravel builder's plates (which include the VIN) but have never seen a post relative to OTHER locations for VINs. Automobiles have multiple locations.
Do Foretravels??
foretravels that I have owned have the vin # stamped on the frame,
near the left front wheel.
Really? When I called Foretravel this morning they acted as if I were a nut case. Said they had never heard of such a thing.
I do suppose that most Foretravels are imported to the North and are rarely re-imported to the USA.
I bet you're glad to not be picking up the coach 'til May. With all the mixed messages you're getting, it's gonna take that long to see who's on first! :))
There is also the fact that until all is worked out as per repatriation. No way will I buy any coach that does not have a green light South. As per a message I received from Wayne in BC (Just one of the many very helpful folks here on FF) I have one more call to make.
I might not even be allowed to test drive the coach either. Canada mandates an air endorsement. Washington State does not require nor even offer this endorsement. I'm sure that the owner doesn't have an issue. But the rozzers and the insurance company might have an issue. I'd hate to get into an unfortunate circumstance of having an accident or even someone running into me whislt driving his coach.
Thanks Steve.
Kim was very helpful & nice to talk to. She told me what I would need to do in clear terms. And that it really isn't necessary to use a broker for a "personal use" import.
She said for the west coast to always use the Blaine, Washington crossing. Sumas "according to her" always tended to be more "by the letter" whereas at Blaine they were a little more willing to "go with the flow" so to speak.
in a nut shell:
If you buy a coach in Canada to import to the USA for "your personal use" and it was made with USA specs. The first step is to get temp insurance and plates at a Canadian insurance agency so that you will be legal for your trip to the US border.
If the import is for personal use. Then the person using the imported item must also be the one to bring it through the border and do the paperwork.
You need to fill out a CBP form 7501 (border entry summery) In reality, The customs agent filled this form out when I imported my car trailer as it's meant more for commercial entities.
As has been mentioned & the source of the issues i have had. Some officers have said the VIN plates mean nothing and others saying that it's all one needs.
Kim said the proof of meeting US DOT & EPA specs are on the TWO data plates on the coach and you don't need a letter from the manufacturer. As we know, There is the data plate by the drivers position which has the safety compliance statement that everyone is familiar with. The second data plate that states it is in EPA compliance is in the engine bay.
Kim also said that if the Canadian owner has managed to keep the old US registration or even a copy of it. That should help, But said it's not a requirement.
The fly in the ointment is the fact that the government allows their customs agents to have a wide latitude of just how they personally interpret the regulations.
So much for my idea of bringing substances & diamonds back! :))
Yeah Mike! How is one to lead a life of crime if one minute the thing you did was illegal then the next it's fine. ;D
Well here we go again, back to square one. Met with a very nice couple that owns a 1999 U320 that is local to me. We looked long and hard to find the EPA certificate that is supposed to be in the engine bay. Could not find it.
I'm beginning to think that this coach isn't for us as we haven't even been able to get past the first step. (can we even bring it back) I have now had two customs agents and a customs broker Kim Jones tell me that without those two stickers. Repatriation is a no go. The coach I looked at today (one year newer) no EPA sticker was to be found.
As a last resort, Are there any owners here that recall seeing one? (EPA sticker in the engine bay) I will once again call FT and ask about this. If the answer is yet another shoulder shrug from FT. Then this coach is done. I'm sure it will make a fine coach for another Canadian.
Are you possibly looking for a data plate on the engine? Not sure what it would look like (have only seen the one on our Allison transmission), but I wonder if that might have "EPA" on it?
Not sure where it is on the M11 engine, but on the 8.3 it is on the top of the timing gear cover
By law it is supposed to be in plain sight not hidden. I looked every where on the engine that I could get to and found nothing.
I even went to the garage and popped the hood on the Mercedes. There it was in plain sight on the underside of the hood. Yes I did look at the inside of the rear cover, all around the electrical under the bed. I will call FT in the morning and ask where they put this sticker so that Reg & his friend Wayne can locate it.
The engine sticker on that age M-11 is on the curb side of the engine just below the valve cover. If you stand on your head with the bed up and look just to the rear of the engine ECM it will be in plain site.
Pamela & Mike
Wow!! So much for "in plain sight" I'll forward that info to the guys in Canada.
Thanks for the info.
There is enough room to be able to get a camera in there and get a couple of pics. but not your head and camera. Use a selfie stick.
Pamela & Mike
It's on the engine. They likely won't even look for the engine sticker though. Didn't when I imported mine. It's really simple process. I just used a trip permit from my state to bring it back. I got insurance coverage too.
Yes it is easy, IF the papers and the vehicle are in order. And that's my issue. I know for a fact that this vehicle does meet US standards, But I have to be in a position to be able to prove this to customs. Spending $50K and just showing up and hoping for the best isn't going to cut it. So far I haven't been able to verify that the proof (the EPA data plate) is on this vehicle.
Fortunately Pamela & Mike have helped immensely & I can now have Wayne verify that this tag is where it is supposed to be.
Remember, This is a large government agency which is like meeting a dog in an ally. It might walk up and lick your face (what happened to you) Then the next day it may rip your face off. I have to be 100% prepared to face a dog that wants to kill me.
It's already stressful enough buying my very first RV. Then you throw in a possible international transaction into the deal. I simply should have slapped myself and said "get a grip on yourself" what were you thinking.
bigdog,
Here is some food for thought on this.
This engine was used in class 8 trucks of that time (and not many RVs). So if you were to raise the hood and stand at the space behind the left front wheel that info sticker would be at most inspectors eyesight. RVs were not even thought about when that sticker was installed on the engine.
Pamela & Mike
Then get a letter from cummins by giving them the engine serial number that says it meets EPA requirements, if you are worried. That will also suffice.
The key is, it IS legal and was made in the USA. Any "problems" you encounter will be simple.
I called FT twice. First time the receptionist said "I've never heard of such a thing" So I left a message with the manager. Never got a call back. The second call fared no better. Just hire a broker is what FT said.
Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic. But I'm just trying to make sure that should I buy the coach, That everything goes as smooth as possible in repatriating it and to do this I need to be prepared for the worst. Because all it takes is for me to happen to draw the officer that has had a very bad week and decides to take out their frustration on me and my coach. So far gathering all the info as to what is actually required by me and my coach has been like herding chickens.
Just sit back and think for a moment about what Mike told me as to where the EPA data tag really is. These tags are meant to be read by the authorities. So they stuck it in a place that one needs to stand on their head under the raised bed platform to even get a peek at it. Gee why didn't I think of that? Yes this engine was used more often in class 8 OTR trucks, Perhaps a simple note in the FT manual data plates section 3.1 stating where this info is would be nice. Heck they showed where the VIN is on the chassis frame, Why not the VIN/EPA data tags location as well?
So, I hope that the group might understand my frustration. I'm a first time coach buyer that is potentially trying to buy his first coach from a foreign country. So I have double the stress to deal with.