Just got my October issue of the FMCA magazine. Nice complimentary article on the new Realm starting on page 64. Beautiful picture of the Realm on the cover of the Magazine! 600 ponies makes our 200 look sick!!
And on the back cover is a Newell coach. I'll take the Realm. Better looking, mirrors more accessible for cleaning, and less resemblance to a bug (rear view mirrors), compartment doors open like doors, front end is cleaner, less "busy" looking, and the door doesn't look like an afterthought. The overhead clearance lights are more inconspicuous and do not need a gaudy piece of chrome that looks like an afterthought also.
WAY TO GO REALM DESIGNERS!!!
600 Ponies, with that, you'll pass everything on the road...except fuel stops!
John/Brett/Roger: I feel better following your advice.
Getting back on topic about the Realm
I have a friend that has a new Entegra Anthem. For the money he paid for the coach it has about every bell and whistle you can put on one, or so I though. It also has a Spartan chassis as the Realm but has the MMGT chassis . When I went to the Spartan Chassis web site http://www.spartanchassis.com/rv/rv_chassis.asp
they offer a number of different chassis's The Foretravel Realm uses their top of the line K3GT, 200 gallon fuel tank. Cummings ISX 15L 600 HP with 1950 lb-ft @ 1,200 rpm of torque, a massive frame compared to the others, 270 amp alternator, disc brakes all around (does not say what size they are) (I thought every motor home had disc's all around these days but the Anthem has drums on the back.) and 20,000 lb towing capacity.
What Realm discussion? :)
A better comparison would be the Cornerstone, which has the K3 chassis. Same engine at transmission, disc all around, and same towing. However no passive tag, 210 amp alternator and 150 gallon fuel tank. Also $250,000 less.
Or the coach it is designed to compete with is the Newmar King Aire.
Does this chassis have a transmission retarder?
But doesn't it have an engine brake?
Funny thing is, Spartan would gladly add one, but Foretravel doesn't want it.
That decision is either due to price or a desire to differentiate this from the IH.
3 stage engine compression brake.
Part of the 250 K difference
Foretravels K3GT frame (https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spartanchassis.com%2Frv%2Fimages%2FK3GT_wTagAxle.png&hash=f217b7c88d4925a654eb25ad004a1710" rel="cached" data-hash="f217b7c88d4925a654eb25ad004a1710" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.spartanchassis.com/rv/images/K3GT_wTagAxle.png)
Cornerstone's K3 frame (https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spartanchassis.com%2Frv%2Fimages%2FK3.png&hash=92dd759067b4cb18814effd6dda8edde" rel="cached" data-hash="92dd759067b4cb18814effd6dda8edde" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.spartanchassis.com/rv/images/K3.png)
Wow, looking at these two chassis, it appears that accessibility is getting almost as bad as our rear radiator GV!!
I guess the the unihome / unicoach build style doesn't work with these big new beasts.
Must be the all the slides ? ( just continuing on with the dumb questions ).
Nice pics Turbo.
I believe the IH45 is built with the semi-monocoque chassis, proprietary to Foretravel. Realm uses the Spartan, which results in siginificant cost savings.
I know those cost savings are supposed to be "significant" but it's not all that clear to me how it saves $500,000.00 or so.
The travel ride chassis is suppose to ride better but the new FT will also have a steering tag too.
When I questioned that exact price difference I was told that the unit cost of the Foretravel chassis is almost twice the cost of the Sparten. Remember Sparten buys hundreds of engines, transmissions etc. Foretravel a dozen a year. I would guess the power train including retarder HWH ride system, and the differences with labor times is easily $100,000 difference. Add the other options Glass dash, total coach, four airs and many other features you can see with a markup to allow a dealer profit you could see the price differential. Remember the IH actually sells for around $850,000 out the door. They are selling a 2016 Realm for $724,000 out the door. Actual difference isn't near $500,000 as both list prices are just a figment of their imaginations to make you think that you are buying a million dollar or more coach.
The advantage of a trans retarder might be much less with a three stage 15 liter inline six cylinder engine exhaust's brake to hold you back?
Plus the trans heating up with 50,000 pounds would be significant.
If you have enough displacement the trans retarder is not needed it seems.
And can' be overheated.
8.3 or 11 liters is probably not enough to hold back my GCWR with an engine brake.
I remember a n14 444hp/1850 torque would slow hard down large grades with the jake on. Put a smile on your face....
It would be an engine compression brake-- MUCH stronger than an exhaust brake, and mechanically totally different. Many engine compression brakes generate close to the same braking HP as motive HP. 600 HP of braking is a LOT of braking. If someone has the braking HP of the ISX, would be interesting to know.
I knew I misstated the engines use of a compression brake. Thanks for the input.
I understand it's 60% efficient if my memory is correct.
Still a lot. Retarder is even higher I understand. 80%. Out of my technical league here.
The old cat 3176 with a three position jake would hold back a 37,000 pound total combined weight Marquis on a six percent interstate grade without using the service brakes.
Past that you needed the brakes.
The retarder will do much steeper but does heat up finally.
Love to have both. Someone here has both I remember.
Especially if both could be on at the same time?
If the jake is over run then the retarder could be added. Why not?
May dig up the parts and install it on my m11 just for fun
All that hot piping and emissions parts look hard to access just in the bare frame let alone with a body of any kind on it.
Looked at a cummins power plant for a fire department water pump and its in a steel frame. Tubes and hoses and mufflers and cat converter with spark igniters (I think) in the converter.
Wow. Big slide in smog compliant unit.
That is such a cop-out excuse. FT has the design and all the knowledge. They could outsource the fabrication of the frames. Manufacturing has gotten much more efficient over the last 15 years, but FT seems to not have taken advantage of that. The R&D is the expensive part, and that's already done!
The disadvantage of the spartan way is that the chassis/engine are not as accessible as a semi monocoque setup.
The original unihome cost less to build than the ORED.
Minus the $1m R&D.
Perceived value. Spartan was amazingly well made.
Albeit with small,compartments that resulted from the massive girder boxed frame structure.
Had to be more diagonals and uprights to hold the weight and motor torque.
Figuring most body's mounted on the K3 have loose hung non structuctural sidewalls with aluminum framing they overbuilt the frame.
Seen a few new coaches on less chassis break windshields regularly and one had massive reinforcing steel welded to it by a local shop.
Wimpy.
Spartan k3 probably OK judging by its looks and backed up by foretravels use of it.
I am not interested in a 45' myself. But for the park model buyers it's a good piece.
I have a medium nice house. Don't need my Rv to look like a Vegas suite. P
But I understand those who do want and can afford it. Kool
I believe the extra cost is the cost of components. Foretravel buys 12 engines, 12 transmissions etc. and usually not at once. Same thing with the cooling package. They buy tires from a distributor not the manufacturer like Sparten. I don't think its a cop out as to actual costs. What I do believe is they should price the motorhomes at a realistic list price and sell more. As others have said and I agree they should buy a Sparten or Freightliner chassis and since they have made the break with their own chassis with the Realm, start building the U320 series with retarder then add their beautiful paint and interiors. List priced in the low $500,000 they would be back to the early 2000's. They then would have volume and use the IH as their flagship. New owners both being younger than this generation and perhaps more willing to spend their disposable income could also be the basis of potential up graders. When I was much younger I started with a 270 and over the years as I became comfortable with Rv'g I ultimately upgraded to my current Phenix.
I agree. Need a lower price "entry level" model to grab the newer buyers that will later upgrade.
Also, FT should start making high quality 5th wheels. Then they can't complain about price of driveline components. I'd gladly buy a FT 5th wheel.
I would say that with the number of motorhomes today at the "entry level" any movement by Foretravel would be futile to enter this field. Since the economy today makes buyers look for the least expense rig to buy, quality does not factor into many buyers decisions today. Lets face it, to an inexperienced buyer, all motorhomes new look great in appearance. The price ticket is what sells the motorhome. What profit margin could Foretravel really make selling rig at the entry level while competing with all the other manufactures who are well established in this entry field?
I completely agree. Foretravel needs to continue focusing on producing the highest-quality motorhomes and that includes building their own integral-chassis construction. They just need to invest in automated technology to lower the cost per unit to increase sales and be able to buy compenents at a more competitive price.
If Foretravel gets involved in 5th Wheels, automated technology, etc., they'll become a either a bottom feeder, OR, perish the thought, go belly up. Look what happened to Alpinelite, Airstream & many others that tried the cheap route. Were I an owner, I'd stick with the gal that brought me to the dance,
In addition to increasing sales volumes in order to get volume pricing on major chassis components, you would thing there would be another way.
Why don't lower volume manufacturers join in a co-op to use joint volumes in their purchasing power?
high quality 5th wheels. Some people want the great interior and cabinetry of a FT, but don't need the motorhome aspect.
Where did I say bottom feeder? I said lower cost...like what they made in the late 1990's and early 2000's.
The fact is this. Brand loyalty and marketing are very important for sales. The fleet of FT's on the road is growing smaller and smaller due to natural attrition. There are no FT dealers anymore. When the averge guy that is willing to spend some decent money (300-500k) and buy QUALITY starts looking around, I can almost guarantee a FT will not be included on the list of contenders. He probably doesn't even know the brand exists.
Hatteras Yachts suffered the same "margin is better on big stuff" idea. You know who offers smaller boats to catch the younger buyer? SeaRay. And then as the person decides to upgrade over the years, SeaRay is there to offer larger and more expensive units. And because SeaRay has dealers and service, then owner feels loyal to the brand.
No where did I say cheap. I said lower cost. Find a FT under 500k new...ain't happening.
"Automated technology" doesn't need to mean "cheap." It's just a way to increase efficiency. Manufacturers who refuse to take advantage of modern technology and the increased efficiency it brings are the ones who find themselves going "belly up."
Making "what they made in the late 1990's and early 2000's" very nearly sent the company to the graveyard.
Foretravel needs to re-focus on making coaches with outstanding quality, but needs to find ways of maintaining that quality and yet producing them at a lower cost and then offering them for sale at more realistic prices.
Here's your option: we've been staying at a park across the street in Mesa, Arizona & it's amazing how busy they are! You want it cheaper? Biig Box seems to be all over. I hate to say how many owners of new coaches we've met that are sorry they went with the "bottom feeders".
This up and down cycles are routine in the Rv biz. New guys build pretty floor plans and fabrics. Sign up dealers to buy the trades.
Short the quality control. Deny dealer warranty claims so they invent things to bill the factory.
Big dealer cheats the banks and run off into the sunset with ill gotten gains.
Newby buyers make happy noises when looking at the household refer and tv's.
Coach construction? Resale value? "There all the same." Heard that countless times.
At the risk of jinxing myself I rarely carry much tools when traveling. Really reliable IF you are proactive not reactive on the entire coach
Long term financing. Customer has massive negative equity. Cannot trade out.
Or the inflated oem list price is used to not embarrass the trade in owners.
I,have had numerous buyers tell me to raise the trade price and my price so they can show the DW they did not loose money buying the trade in.
At least the trades have a book value unlike boats.
Old stories done over constantly.
Then there are us old die hard foretravelers. Last of the old breed. Built to last was done literally
I have a friend who has a 40 foot OB. He has enough tools to make a pro mechanic envious. I call him "Ace" because he literally has a hardware store on board. Besides Foretravel, older Airstreams, Barths, etc., seem to attract us nut cases; I love it!
My Barth factory rep called them "barfs"
They were not the best looking high line coaches ever made, but I helped a guy one time troubleshoot a wiring problem. Looked under the front compartment and said, "WOW, This coach is wired to mil-specs." ^.^d
Tiny plastic water lines. No flow.
Speaking of fifth wheels, anybody know what happened to the Foretravel that was turned into one?
I saw it last week. It's for sale. PM me if you want info.
On lot last month
The way I see it, the SOB class "A" coach buyers are at the entry level for motorhomes. After awhile those owners start learning about quality, durability, reliability, plan"ability", and all the other -abilities and then they go looking for a Foretravel.
Unfortunately a lot of new buyers do not do their homework. A lot of these same buyers never heard of Foretravel. Even the salesman at the Tiffen dealer here in Wisconsin never heard of Foretravel!
Many of these SOB owners are even willing to go back a few years in order to get the quality of a Foretravel coach.
Not everyone is willing (or able) to move directly into a new Foretravel coach. Unfamiliarity with the lifestyle, necessary mechanical knowledge, foreseeable usage, finances, and availability all play parts in the decision making process.
We bought our 1989 GV based on the quality, condition, floor plan, a list of requirements we desired, and finances. All the aforementioned conditions were met and we are totally happy with our decision. We do tour RV dealers used coaches whenever we have time and come away very, very, happy with our '89 GV. It has aged a whole lot better than almost all the SOBs we were in, the layout and amenities are still all we want or need.
When we were "shopping" for an RV we were looking for a camper. WOW, LOOK AT WHAT WE GOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^.^d ^.^d :) :)
A look on the mother ship home page and what do I see ? A sold Realm and another one pending ---This is a good thing to see . Don't remember seeing much sale activity involving any Realm's , so there has to be smiles in NAC . Brad Metzger
I was thinking that if FT wants something to slot in below the Realm, they'd consider building a Super-C.
They're safer in crashes than the typical Class A, as they're starting with a chassis built to DOT and NHTSA specs. And can be equipped with stability control and lane departure warning systems. Downside is they look like the trucks they are.
To control costs, FT would have to restrict buyer choice. Have a base price on a reasonably well-equipped coach and then offer packages: 4-season, home office, pet owner, and tailgater. The contents of which are fixed and a known price, but can be combined. Put a "Build + Price" configurator on their website for them like the automakers do.
Chip H.
The issue is that they still are not a volume and never have been a volume manufacturer. The chassis purchase helps reduce some of the costs. It probably does not matter C vs A. I was impressed when I saw the realm and figured the market might tell them that they need to change direction a bit.
So , there is some interest stirring about . Good good . Front page on FMCA monthly . Write up in the Good Sam monthly . And now we are seeing some results . Yes , it was slow to catch on , but seems like that might have happened . Brad Metzger