Foretravel Owners' Forum

...........................(EDIT - U270, 1997) for $39,500.  Does it have to be a 320?  Is there that much difference between U270 and U320?.......................

Ps. The propane furnace & water heater have not cost a dime in maintenance as I can do all the annuals in those. Aquahot?

Here's my opinion...and I can back it up pretty well.

If you live in the South and it rarely gets below freezing and never gets to 10F or lower, no aquahot is the way to go. Running the complex aquahot system just to make hot water is foolish. For the cool days, you'll have a propane furnace or two. The whole furnace can be replaced for $400-600. The entire water heater for the same price. The water heater is dirt simple and it works off electric and engine heat. You'll never have a need for the comfort of the AH.

Also, the South is lower elevation and flatter, overall....so the HP difference isn't such a big deal.

I like your reasoning.


Now, if you live in Wyoming, the aquahot is probably something you would want. And the elevation and big hills makes the HP nice to have. And this is why I'm in the market for a u320 to complement my 34' u270 that I love (and will keep).

The other differences, like the "bus style" compartment doors are nice....the remainder stuff is just gizmos that don't matter that much.

Neal,

Not having owned any FT other our 2003 U320 (for 11.5 years now), can you outline at a "high level" (no actual costs required) what you have identified as the major maintenance expense differences between your '98 U270 and the '02 U320?

Is it cost of engine filters?  Quantities of fluids?  Are the maintenance intervals different? 

I would  certainly like to read the "facts" showing that my U320 is significantly more expensive to maintain than is a U270. My experience says those "facts" are myths.

Peter and Beth said:
"Forrest's oil capacity is 20 qrts. I am almost certain the Big Block M11 is almost double that amount."

My 96 M11 requires 42 quarts, however, I installed a By-pass filter, use synthetic oil, and have annual oil analysis done. So far, 25,000 miles, and five years since last oil change, however, added a quart for each thousand miles (what Cummins indicates is normal oil consumption). I will change oil early next year.

Caflashbob said:
"no replacement for the increase comfort and convenience of the aqua hot IMO"

I believe that for most folks with Foretravel motorhomes, Aquahot is the best choice.
However, I boondock most of the time during winter months when in California so use solar for my power needs. I go where it is warm, but not too hot, so have little need for furnaces or A/C. I camp weekends during the summer in Canada and if weather is cold, I stay home, so little need for furnaces or A/C. Before I have a shower, I turn the water tank on propane (when boon docking) for 12 minutes. I do not keep the water heater on all the time when boon docking. When shore power is available, I leave the water heater on electric. The Aquahot boiler must be preheated before heater or hot water is available, which would not work well for me.

JCUS said:
"Added advantage of aquahot, if dry camping, uses less power than propane furnaces, if run overnight on battery"

I highly doubt this because propane furnaces use circa 10 amps each, only when running, while Aquahot has more 12 volt motors, a blower for combustion air, a recirculating pump for antifreeze, as well as heater blowers for each heat exchanger or zone. My understanding is that Aquahot can use as much as 25 or 30 amps, while one furnace uses 10 amps. Does anyone know the how much power Aquahot uses.

Yearly Changes:
There were differences between 1995, 1996, 1997 U320s which were important to me. Aquahot was an option in 1995 and 1996 and was standard in 1997 and later years. The cabinet doors in the 1995 and 1996 were tamboured, while in 1997 and later years, cabinet doors were top hinged. For the 1997 model year Foretravel introduced ducted air conditioning (by lowering the ceiling), white vinyl wall paper (made interior brighter), dual pane windows (many failed), and pantographic cargo doors (previous are top hinged). I spent many hours studying the spec sheets provided by Barry and concluded that I wanted a 1995 or 1996 U320 without Aquahot, but did not want a 1997 or newer because I wanted high ceilings, Walnut wall panelling, and tamboured cabinet doors. I would have preferred dual pane windows, and pantographic cargo doors. 

I considered buying a 36 foot U320, rather than the 40 foot for quicker steering, however, a 36 foot has only 60% as much basement storage as a 40 foot, and does not have the wonderful multi-drawer pantry across from the refer.

RT_Geezer:
You have asked for information about Foretravel motorhomes and I bet you just learned a lot about Foretravel motorhomes in a short time. 

What a great thread!

We - I wanted the most HP I could get in our budget.  All of the other stuff is great too.  ;D

Michelle/DJ
Some of the costs are obvious and preloaded up front:
e.g. - Initial Cost:
In equal states of repair and condition (or conversely, disrepair or bad condition) an M11/4000Series Allison will cost more than an 8.3/3000Series Allison, regardless whether new or used, just as a U320 trim level will cost more than a U270.  To the experienced buyer, the type and quality of upgrades should be nearly as important as the two factors above (but it seldom is to the newb).

Most of the costs are ongoing, some obvious, others not so obvious:
e.g. - One obvious family of costs you've already mentioned: while service intervals and fluid test intervals/costs remain comparable, the quantities of fluids and the cost of the larger U320 filters are vastly different.  Even for DIY's, it about doubles the routine service interval cost in terms of fluids, filters and disposal costs alone.

*** That the larger engine is double the self-maintenance expense is certainly important.  On the other hand  the expense (whatever it happens to be) is amortized over the course of a year - so the *amount* of difference is also critical.  Double $100 isn't as daunting as double $500 for instance.  Do you have any reasonably accurate estimates? ***

e.g. - CCC/GVWR:
In order to achieve equal coach CCC and GVWR capacities, because the power train in the U320 is so much heavier, a tag axle is required, so 6 vs. 8 tires, 6 vs. 8 brakes, 8 vs. 10 air bags, X vs. Y shocks, weighing costs, tag control system components and all of the associated service time and/or costs (the rest of the chassis construction/maintenance is essentially "Unicoach" across the U270/U295/U320 platforms).

*** The 2000 36' U320 comes with a 450 HP engine and no tag axle (none necessary, I take it, due to the closer proximity of the engine to the rear axle - so less of a bending moment exerted on the chassis?  I dunno...).  Granted, extra engine weight is extra engine weight, but on a 36' chassis that yields what is likely the best power to weight ratio found in a production motor home.  I can only imagine what the CCC must be for that model... ***

  As an aside, and as many of us have found out, a newer 42', U320, tag axle coach doesn't have as much storage room in it as an older, 36', U270, non-tag coach has.  Each slide, the private potty, the tag, the larger generator w/side radiator pkg., all take away storage space.

e.g. - Batteries:
Likewise, the service  life and preventative maintenance cost of (4) (2 engine and 2 house) vs. (6) (3 and 3) AGM or GEL U270 VS. U320 batteries. Preventative maintenance costs remain comparable but the corrective maintenance costs (replacement costs) are very different. The same with the 42 ft U320's  three air conditioners vs. the 36' and 40' U270's two air conditioners.

*** I see that the upgrade from U270/295 to U320 in the 36' adds one engine battery.  I guess I don't see increasing the number of engine batteries by 1 making much difference, and I am already planning lithium replacements when the time comes for house batteries as well as a full solar retrofit, regardless what I ultimately end up buying.  So space/weight/maintenance are almost non-issues at least for the house batteries.***

e.g. - KISS (Keeping It Super Simple) Heating/Hot Water:
The U320 Aqua Hot (standard) initial cost is obviously many times more expensive than the U270/295 propane furnace(s), but what isn't obvious is that the operating/maintenance costs are many times again more expensive.  In colder weather, maintaining the large Aqua Hot system volume of water at the much higher system temperature (for heating vs. just hot water) is much more expensive than the U270/U295 electric/propane (essentially "on-demand") hot water/heating system.  Last winter, during my recovery from back surgery (Jan. and Feb. in NH), it became abundantly clear that the U270  routine operating costs (propane) were far less than one half the (diesel fuel) U320 Aqua Hot operating costs.

*** Aye - there's the rub!  Heating a coach in NH in winter must be a no-win proposition.  I don't plan to spend time in a cold climate in winter unless it's to go skiiing somewhere for a week or two - assuming I'm as lucky as my fondest dreams always tell me.  But I get the message re: KISS... ***

Another obvious is the Aqua Hot annual maintenance vs. the propane furnace.  Our U270 cost less than $100 in service and repairs (parts and labor) in 16 years.  At a minimum, having your Aqua Hot professionally serviced is a few hundred dollars a year.  Our Aqua Hot has cost 10 times that in our first year and it still has issues that "local service reps" don't seem to have the ability to cure ( occasional sputtering and "backpuffing" and, NO, Rudy isn't available right next door).  No it's not air in the supply lines and the filters have been clean upon inspection/replacement.  New nozzles and two burner services haven't reduced the black diesel soot all over the bushes on the port side of the coach.  BTW,  shut all of the windows and don't sit or work outside on the port side of the coach while the Aqua Hot is running, either, unless you want to be in the diesel exhaust stream.
On another side issue, many owners exude praise for the Aqua Hot "quiet" operation.  We found that once we went through the modifications in the U320 that slow down and make the Aqua Hot distribution fans variable in speed, and we modified the dash fan controls so that we can switch off the high speed dash fan whenever the front Aqua Hot zone called for heat, we can comfortably hear the TV and the noise levels have become less than a U270 propane furnace.  But, before those modifications, we found the original design was more noisy in our 2002, U320 than the propane furnace was in our U270.  So the original design was not a noise improvement in the U320.  I don't know if that is peculiar to the 2002 model design or misinformation from others on the merits of the Aqua Hot. 
BTW, each of the three (heat pump) AC's in the U320 remain to be significantly more noisy than the two (heat strip) AC's in the U270.  The saving grace is that the U320 heat pump AC's don't spew carbonized black residue onto a fabric ceiling (leaving a black carbon plume that is difficult, if not impossible, to totally eradicate).  The ceilings and dash in the U320 are much easier to clean and preserve, using the same Wash 'n Wax All products as are used on the ultra-leather seating surfaces.

*** Sounds like Aqua-Hot (early implementations, at least) is no bargain.  Duly noted.  I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to retrofit a propane/electric water heater and skip the Aqua-Hot altogether (including the contribution to heating the coach)? ***

But I digress from your questions:

e.g. - Controls Complexity:
In 16 years, I never had a U270 switch or latching relay fail (there were only 2 latching relays on the '98 U270).  In the U320, the THREE "bells and whistles" U320 Intellitec computers (for remote water fill and water pump ON/OFF operation as well as dozens of remote lighting choices) have all individually failed.  Because the originals are no longer available, the three computers and all 12 remote switching stations have been replaced at a total cost of several thousand dollars.  Intellitec is a wonderful "bell and whistles" feature -- but it is not a KISS or budget-friendly U320 feature!

*** Ouch!  I have not found technology with "intelli" in the name worthwhile in general.  [As a heavy computer user I despise software that tries to figure out what to do for me next - the software never has a clue and only forces me to shove it aside.]  Hardware "intelligence" is usually worse and definitely more co$tly to maintain - or replace outright...  Good to know! ***

e.g. - Even though I had to lock things manually, I was never locked out of a U270 compartment.  I have had more than one remote locking motor fail without prior indication or announcement, leading to more than one "deep diving expedition".  Our first year "bells and whistles" remote locking motor costs have far exceeded the 16 year U270 manual lock mechanism costs.

e.g. - What do you do with LED rope lighting (buried in valance fabric) that has just one LED out (unsightly X several valances)?  The U270 had no rope lighting.  Nice to enhance atmosphere.  Not as inexpensive time and cost wise to maintain.

*** I'm thinking I will do a stem to stern lighting retrofit with LEDs.  (No, they do not cost an arm and a leg anymore.)  They are part of what makes extended boondocking possible. ***

e.g. - Count up the number of puck lighting and rope lighting fixtures as well as preventative and corrective maintenance actions/costs, topside and below; U270 vs. U320 = easily more than a 3::1 ratio........48 puck lights above the coach belt-line alone.  Maybe only a few hundred dollars to upgrade to LED's, BUT, a LOT more DIY (or purchased man-hours) costs on a U320 vs. a U270.

e.g. - What is the ratio of U320 vs. U270 "touch-light" door handle and door bell issues?

Another element in the equation is evolution:
e.g. - As the 1995 U-whatever evolved through 2007?, in order to remain competitive, the coaches became more and more sophisticated and complex.  As has already been pointed out, U320's could be had in 1995 without retarders and Aqua Hots.  But by 2003, standard models could not be had without Aqua Hots and Intellitec Lighting controls.
e.g. -  Nor did a simple, easily repaired, 1998 U270 aux. air compressor remain viable.  With slides and then multiple slides, the simple compressors did not have the high volume needed to support the increased air needs.  With increased air volume came fancy water and desiccant filters (three on our coach, even without our having any slides). But with evolution, I now have desiccant that is turning pink in less than three months in the Northeast.  And even with my aux air compressor running only once each two to three days, the aux compressor is moving enough air that I often find moisture in the front air tanks.  Evolution is nice.  Less KISS and increased maintenance and complexity?  Not as nice.  There must be a better solution than the (either expensive or time consuming or both) desiccant solution.

*** Compressors - another technology to be aware of.  This is sobering.  I plan to have a small, very efficient electric compressor for topping off the tires, but for all the on-board stuff there is probably no other recourse...***

These are but a few examples.  Considering it realistically, most of us can come up with many more complexity and cost examples. 

Long story short, many owners have either NOT experienced both worlds or, for whatever reason, have not been forthcoming with unbiased realities (facts). 

When we were doing our research, prior to purchasing what we thought would be our "First and Last Foretravel Coach", we had an incredibly hard time sorting out fact from fiction among several brands and brand sub-models of interest.  Most of the data gathering, that eventually led us to a new, 1998, U270 purchase, was loaded with partial truths and biased opinions that were not based upon fact.  I only wish that we had had the internet and a Forum such as this to help address the questions that I had then.
 
The choice between a U270 and a U320 is highly personal and (in my opinion) one needs to decide what their ongoing budget target IS as well as exactly what their KISS target "comfort level" IS.  One's targets may change over time, much as ours did, but one can easily become either disenchanted with their decision (to go for too simple or to go for too complex - either way) or engulfed in unanticipated costs, if realistic needs and wants are not considered well before taking that initial leap.  There IS a world of difference between a U320 and a U270 in any model year and then over the 1995 to 2007? evolution in terms of complexity and costs. 

Current owners that are not forthcoming and helpful (unbiased) in providing factual answers to newb's (or current FT owner's considering a change in models) sincere questions are doing others a disservice. 

For that reason alone, it would be nice to see a lot more questions directed at (and input received from) Nimbus, Phenix and iH owners.
Neal

*** Neal - thanks very much indeed! this has given me a lot to think about.  While I suspect I still want a 36' U320, ca. 200-2002, it is sobering to consider the technological complexity even in those model years.  Complexity - especially when it results from the marketing of conveniences to consumers of any kind is almost never a *good* thing for those who have to keep it going, as there will always be many more points of failure and more mysterious ones at that. It's very difficult to make "magic" reliable.  I used to work as a QA engineer for a web software startup - I know exactly how this comes about, and I know that in the early going of a technology it tends to be a losing battle.  In this case these are electronic failures - which are the worst (right alongside software) because they are so often intermittent and in any case much more difficult to diagnose than anything mechanical.  I look forward to reading your comments and all the comments from other experienced Foretravel owners!  ***

Waytt
It was time to exercise my aqua-hot so I ran a little load test on it. Running diesel only, found unit used 6 amps while warming up and no hot water or heat demand. Because the quantity of the water being heated in the  coils is quite small, it heats quickly and I had enough hot water for a shower in about 5 min. This is also true for the heat exchangers, they were producing warm air in about the same time. Load with one zone producing heat, was about 12 amps, with 2 zones, about 16 amps total. It took about 25 min for the unit to reach operating temp and shut down completely.
Subjectively, I think the coach heats faster and more evenly [ maybe because of the extra dash blower] with the aquahot compared to my propane 295. The unit also has an electric element that can be used with or without the diesel portion, although electric only, is just good for mild weather and short showers.
But the biggest advantage I see is the engine preheat, the aquahot will circulate hot water through your engine block without it being necessary for you to have shorepower or run your generator for a block heater in cold weather.

The safety advantage of a left lane capable motor home is very important versus playing with trucks up the grades in and out of the slow lane.

More needed in the west.  Both up and down. 

My universally accurate test was to ask a prospective customer if when they came up to an two lane on their side intersection in the curb lane and in front of them was a vehicle.  The inner lane is clear.

Would they move over in a car?  Or stay behind the car and not even notice the empty lane?

Almost fool proof test. 

Our Aqua-Hot had required the replacement of one relay in our roughly three years of ownership.

 I think the lighter oak is much better than the walnut. Makes space seem more open and happy. But we all have our preference.

krush, I love the oak too, it really does seem to make everything lighter.  At the little "un-rally" we had in NC, I had a lot of people come in & comment about how my coach seemed larger (no slides) than theirs, even though they had slides, but darker wood.  I think the light background window decor makes a difference too...along with the light colored leather (or whatever it is) & light pretty rugs...really feels to me like living in a big garden, especially the bedroom, very happy atmosphere.  The older I get, seems the more light I like, so this oak is perfect to me.

Each U270 is different. Options make up the difference. Forrest is well endowed in that department. All leather, Splendide, central vac, 10 disc CD, all sorts of goodies in the head, water heater bi-pass, water filtration drinking & shore, joy stick retarder, sun shades, window awnings, roof coating, front bra, and more I can't even recall.

Moral of the story is ya gotta go over stuff carefully before u make an assessment. Also know your needs to select the best option for you. 320 or 270.