If you were considering a self adhesive oil pan heater for your 6V92TA you should reconsider. The problem is the oil pan doesn't have any flat places large enough to stick the heat pads on. I bought one that's separated into two small pads so I can put one on either side of the oil pan. If there's even the slightest curve to the oil pan the adhesive won't stick. When I turned on the heater it started melting and smoking after a few seconds in the spot where the curve is in the pan. A magnetic heater would probably work better but I'm not sure it would stay on when I hit a bump driving down the road, so I might have to remove the heater every time before I drive away. That doesn't sound like a reasonable solution because I know I'd forget to remove it at some point. The 6V92TA has a metal oil pan. The threaded drain plug in the oil pan is supposedly 1/2" NPT (pipe thread) and the best solution would be to install a plug heater in there. I'm not sure how much clearance there is inside the oil pan or how much oil I'll lose as I'm installing the plug heater. I'll probably order the shortest possible plug heater and wait for a really cold morning when the oil is thick and slow flowing to install it. My oil is very clean currently so that will cut down on the mess. I don't think a dipstick heater would be a good solution because the dipstick is really long on my coach. I'm not interested in heating the water jacket except as a last resort if I can't get any type of oil pan heater to work. I only want to heat the oil. That's been discussed endlessly and I don't want to get into that again. I just wanted to warn anyone with intentions of installing an adhesive oil pan heater that it probably won't work, even if you order the heater with two small pads for the sides of the oil pan.
@Scott I'd be very worried about baffling in the oil pan preventing you from inserting a heater via the drain plug plus it would be a hassle everytime you change oil.
I have a magnetic oil pan heater. I've never used it. The shape of the oil pan would make it very difficult to attach plus it's only 250watts. Only the magnetics touch the pan and there is about a 1/4" to 3/8" gap between the heater and the oil pan. It just doesn't look like it would transfer very much heat. It will probably be showing up on ebay very soon. :) Let me know if you're interested.
I know you say you are not interested in water-jacket heating but....that seems to be the best solution I've seen so far.
@JohnFitz has already gone down that path and come up with a great solution.
Alternate Block Heater on 6V92 Detroits (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23517.0)
You can buy one on ebay for $39.99.
Genuine Kim Glo Hotstart Block Heater V71 Series Detroit Diesel DDV 151B New... (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Kim-Glo-Hotstart-Block-Heater-V71-Series-Detroit-Diesel-DDV-151B-NEW-/301769221523)
I've purchased one but haven't installed it yet. It's on my project list.
If you do proceed with the oil plug heater let us know how it goes. I can see using both if I ever decide to pull my skis out of storage.
PS Thanks for letting us know the issues you had with the stick-on heater.
see ya
ken
I haven't completely given up on the adhesive oil pan heater yet. I've been thinking about it a lot and I'll probably try injecting JB Weld into the area where the curve is to fill up the air gap. If that doesn't work I may try to move the pad that started melting to another location on the oil pan. I only let the heater run a few seconds and it doesn't appear to be damaged... yet! haha... Hey I paid $115 for this thing and I don't want to give up without a fight! :) ...Still, I wouldn't advise anyone else to do this because it's likely to fail.
The engine can't crank fast enough to start with cold, thick oil in the pan. Heating the water jacket won't heat the oil in the pan. That's why I'm not interested in heating the water jacket. It's been discussed on here several times before. Everyone thinks I'm completely wrong and I'm okay with that. I just wanted to write about what not to do, which obviously includes buying an adhesive pad heater that sticks on the oil pan. I didn't want to get into a discussion of how stoopid I am for wanting to heat only the oil in the pan, or for only wanting a two cycle engine that runs on straight 40 weight oil that's so thick the engine can't crank it in cold weather. I like being different.
Scott,
What temp are you expecting that requires oil heating ?
I'm thinking you want to heat the mechanical parts of the engine that need to move (pistons, valves, crankshaft, bearings, etc). The oil pump doesn't begin pumping oil of any quantity until the engine is running.
I would expect to require heat for a straight 40 weight at any temp below 20 degrees or so. The oil pump starts pumping as soon as you crank and will slow down cranking enough at low temps that you wont be able to start.
A block heater would help, i had an 8v92 twin turbo airstart unit for starting jets and we installed a gear driven oil pump that circulated oil from the sump into a T fitted where the oil pressure sender was. It pumped oil anytime the water jacket heater was on and with oil flowing thru the heads and turbo, everything was lubed, oil and water got heated to 120F and ready to run at full output 24/7 during the winter. At engine temps below 120 it automatically locked itself out and restricted operation to idle. It could take 30 minutes to warm up in the winter if it would even start at all, usually it would melt battery posts trying to crank in the cold.
Well worth the investment in heating equipment for that application, a 30 minute delayed flight is expensive.
Yes, if the warm oil is externally pumped, that is a great way to get the mechanical parts of the engine warmed up.
Pumping of the oil was more to transfer heat from the water jacket heater to the oil. The sump will never get warm as the jacket is higher and as we all know, heat rises.
Sure, actually I was referring to the original idea of heating just the oil pan.
But, heat in any location will definitely help these big engines. :)
My engine wouldn't start last winter at 18 degrees with the 1000 watt water jacket heater running full time and three 8D batteries cranking. I put a small electric heater under the oil pan for an hour or so and it cranked right up immediately. Heating the water jacket doesn't heat the oil in the pan. I just want to heat the oil in the pan so the engine will crank fast enough to start. I think a 250 watt oil pan heater would probably be enough, but I installed a 500 watt heater, which is really two 250 watt pads with one located on either side of the oil pan. Again, don't waste your time and money ordering one of these because it probably won't work. Unfortunately I already wasted $115 on one and I'm gonna try everything I can think of to get it to work. I'll let you know if / how I get it working.
if pride and determination are steering the ship you could pull the oil pan and weld enough flat surface onto it for the blanket. That would also mean an increase in oil capacity which doesn't totally hurt either. Or you could weld a extra bung into the pan for a heater element.
Do not most engines use a block heater? The combustion chamber needs to be hot enough to ignite diesel.
Used to ski a lot and 60 second crank times were not unheard of.
As far as I am aware of all Foretravels diesels came with ether start which worked great.
My m11 has an ether start port built into the side of the engine. Only works below 50 degrees
The either start can be dangerous. I have seen more that a few of them stick on injecting the whole can into the engine.
While JB Weld supposedly transfers heat reasonably well, Arctic Silver Thermal Adhesive is supposed to be better.
Would a water pipe heat cable work? It could be wrapped around the oil pan multiple times. You could use JB Weld to glue brackets to the pan to hold it in place.
It's very hard on the engine to crank it with cold thick oil. Heating the water jacket or injecting ether won't do anything to help thin the oil... Again, I only want to heat the oil in the pan. I've thought about this a lot over the past three years and I'm sure this is what I want to do. I realize everyone disagrees with me and I'm okay with that. My goal here was only to warn anyone thinking of buying a self adhesive oil pan heater to reconsider because it probably won't work.
Hmmm, I actually have some Arctic Silver thermal adhesive with me, but it's several years old and it's in a tiny tube so I don't know if there's enough of it to fill the gap. It's always been kept refrigerated so maybe it's still good? I suppose that's another option I could consider.
Can you post a picture of your pan so I have a better idea of what youre trying to stick on and where? I havent seen a 6v oil pan in awhile. Ive got a few ideas...
What brand/model heaters did you try?
If your DDC 2 stroke is n good tune, has good compression, you can start it a couple ways, simplest is to crank 5 seconds, wait 5 seconds and repeat. Aby the third cycle it will start at 15f. F course you need a good starter & good battery setup.
I used a water jacket heater, at -5f with heater on for 1 hour, 50 wt oil, my 600 hp 8V-92 started like a summer day. Being a DDC lover, I kept my toys up to snuff, no leaks, no spun rear mains, why the 50 wt.
We do use oil heaters on all generators along with block haters when located in areas where temps drop below 20f Normal use thermostat on block/water jacket heater, on @ 80f off @ 100f.
Of course you need to do the happy thing.
Dave,
I read your posts with great respect as I figure you probably know more than the rest of us combined. Lot of Walter Mittys out there but few have actually turned the wrenches.
Lets keep this a happy group.
Pierce
Your intent to heat the oil makes lots of sense.Stone cold oil will take a whole lot of heat out of a warm block. And yes they do spin a lot easier with warm oil, on big trucks that wont go I point a salamander heater at the oil pan and away we go. I am lucky to have access to several excellent tig welders so altering the pan doesn't cause me a lot of concern but it really isn't for everybody. How is the blanket constructed could you possibly cut it and fit it?
Dave, with 4700+ posts, you have my respect.
Actually it might be more effective to delete the offending poster entirely than just their posts.
BTW, a poster can delete their own post, as trolls have been known to do to create controversy.
Also, if you initiate a thread, and later delete your original post (say if you find some posts in a thread offensive) by deleting the original post that you "own" as the original poster, all posts associated with that original post will disappear. So anyone can in fact (and often do) take actions that cause post deletion that are not related to the Moderators.
Please do not feed the pigeons, bears or especially the Trolls
Guys just keep it on topic and it will get better.
I guess I musta missed something? I don't check this very often. I'm not offended and I didn't delete anything but I'm not interested in heating the water. I've heard all the arguments for heating the water, thought about each of them carefully with an open mind, and decided to heat the oil in the pan instead. I'm okay with every person on this forum disagreeing with me. I only started this thread to warn others to reconsider if they were about to buy a self adhesive oil pan heater. I spent $115 on mine and I'm not gonna give it up without a fight, but I advise others to avoid it.
Toby, the heating pad specifically says not to cut it. I presume it would cause an open circuit and render the pad useless. It still works at this point so I'm gonna mess with it some more... but it's pouring rain currently here at Bandelier NM. :(
Good info. Never seen or heard of an Oshkosh or Foretravel ether issue myself but anything is possible.
Need to check mine out as I really prefer backups to the backups in rving.
Tips for Cold Weather Operation
COLD WEATHER STARTING:
One should have an engine block heater installed and maybe even an oil pan oil heater. The easiest oil heater to use is the dip stick type which you just stick in the dip stick location. There are pan heaters that are magnetized and attach to the oil pan, but sometimes these will crystallize the pan and it will crack and start leaking. The engine block water heater should be plugged in at least 8 hours prior to crank and the oil heater should be turned on at least 3 to 4 hours prior although you can leave them on for much longer, even days at a time. Make sure fluids (Engine coolant and oil) are in the proper places before turning them on or they will burn out very quickly if not emerged (does not apply to the external magnet attached heaters).
In an emergency situation, I always threw in a bag of Charcoal, an old metal bucket and a gallon of Bleach and a roll of paper towels just in case I needed to warm the engine and did not have an electrical source to warm the engine with.
CAUTION: WAIT until the charcoal starter fluid is burned off and the coals start glowing good and NO flame is visible. Then slide the bucket under the oil pan and wait a couple of hours.
CAUTION: Do NOT burn the charcoal inside the bus or in a closed garage as it will Asphyxiate you. And do not ignite it near gasoline or even near empty gasoline containers that are open or closed. A tarp or pieces of cardboard to block the wind around the engine will also help.
AND WHAT IS THE BLEACH FOR? You can use the bleach to pour around the tires and make a short trail in the ice and snow to get traction if it gets too slippery to untrack the vehicle.
AND WHAT ABOUT THE ROLL OF PAPER TOWELS? When your windshield fogs over, instead of ripping off 1, 2, 3 or 4 sheets, you can use the roll of paper towels to wipe a 12" path side to side like an inside windshield wiper blade. If you grasp it at the end it will extend your reach almost an additional foot to reach into the far corners. And when it gets a little damp simply rotate the roll to a dry spot. It will dry out for the next de-fogging later.
WAIT . . . DON'T THROW AWAY THE TUBE . . . the one that is inside of the paper towels. It is real handy to use when adding oil to the engine. It is a extension to the 1 gallon oil jug. The neck of the oil jug fits just inside the cardboard tube effectively extending and making it a long neck jug. The extension tube fits just inside the oil filler tube and you don't have to spill it or hunt up a funnel, make sure it is clean from dirt or what ever and then afterwards mess with a dripping funnel after servicing the engine. If you want to save them in advance and make sure they are clean you can also take an old bread wrapper, turn it inside out (to get rid of the crumbs) and store the tubes inside the old bread wrapper.
very good stuff! love the paper towel idea. used the charcoal in a pan trick to get a Volvo started at 11 below zero one winter in MI -
Thanks for the great post
Very impressed with the paper towel roll trick, much better than rolling up a piece of paper like I have been doing. On a related not Dixie cups make great throw away funnels. Dipstick heaters are held back by the fact they have to fit in a small dipstick tube. I have only seen one real serious dipstick heater failure, the user put it in an oil tank each time he fired the engine and continued pulling on it by the wires led to a short that arced out and ignited oil vapours that were coming out the tube.
I was hoping the magnetic heater was a loop of wire that you could trace out on the magnet to cut out but no such luck.
Could you adapt a water heater to heat the oil pan in the same way it heats water tanks by directing heat into a chamber around a reservoir in this case the pan.
I have personally started 3208 300 cat diesel cold soaked at 30 below at 8,000 feet in brekenridge, co having the snowplow jump the generator as no battery power was in the coach(no green lights anywhere) using the block heater for 30 minutes and the ETHER start and 60 second crank time.
Lots of cold smoke. Parking lot full.
Changed to 5-20 gen oil to help.
Skiied many times dry camped with the propane gen off.
You guys are spoiled. That's what the ether start was for before aqua hot and diesel gens you could leave run
Just remember, the 6V-92TA as installed in the U300 does NOT have a block heater as such. Foretravel used a block heater (a CAT heater element at that) and mounted it up high on the left thermostat housing. It is 90% useless mounted up here. If the Detroit standard block heater is mounted in the block under the AC compressor mount, it only will need a couple of hours in sub freezing temps to make a white smoke free start. Other options are just to buy a $47 Kat's circulating heater with removing a couple of plugs on either side of the block and using heater hose to route the coolant flow. They are available from 400 watts to over 2000 watts. Total with hose and fittings will be less than $75.
Amazon.com: Kat's 13150 1500 Watt Aluminum Circulating Tank Heater: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/Kats-13150-Aluminum-Circulating-Heater/dp/B000BQUUR6)
Use a mirror and flashlight to find the plugs on the block/heads.
Don't blame the Detroit for poor cold weather starting, blame the guy who had the bad thermostat block heater location idea.
Photo is of the ill advised thermostat location for the "block" heater.
Pierce
DISCLAIMER
This was taken from a old afrticle I had read.
have not done any of this.
Bob,
At -30f, your LP Gas generator will NOT run, so it was able to start, the temp was not near -30f, reason, at -30f, LP Gas can be carried in an open bucket and no pressure to send it to the regulators etc.
FWIW
LP gas will vaporize down to about -44 degrees Fahrenheit. If it doesn't provide enough fuel vapor to run the genset at that temperature you can heat the tank to get more vapor out of it. I used to install LP gas vaporizers when I first got out of the Air Force. We installed the LP gas vaporizers for the boiler plants in the State Line and Silver Smith casinos in Wendover NV... Now how exactly did my thread get this far off subject when all I did was warn people not to buy a self adhesive oil pan heater?
Ah you are right the gen did not run until the tank warmed up a bit in the sun. No one ever splained it to me.
28 years later I learned what really happened.
Only the cat ran after jumping and ether. Barely.
Scott,
I'm interested in hearing about your results with an oil pan heater (when you finally figure out how to attach it). It sounds like no one else has tried it and doing it is the only real way to find out. When the time comes to test it this winter, please let us know how it works. How well an engine starts can be very subject so recording parameters like RPM while cranking will demonstrate your theory or not (assuming the gauge works while cranking - I think it does). Do you still plan on using the OEM block heater too, or just the oil pan heater?
I hope I don't encounter 18 degree temperatures again soon. If the engine starts at that temperature with the oil pan heater running full time I'll consider the test a success. I intend to abandon the water jacket heater but leave it installed. If my oil pan heater ever burns out I can resume using the water jacket heater until I replace the oil pan heater. The oil pan heater should use half as much energy and be very effective. The water jacket heater is ineffective for starting the engine in cold weather. I'll let you know how it works out.
I let the JB Weld dry for 24 hours and then turned on the oil pan heater again. I can smell hot rubber but I don't see any melting or smoke this time. I let it run an hour or so and then crawled underneath my coach for a close up look and it seems okay to me. The oil pan is warm already. The water jacket heater uses twice as much power but never gets the oil pan warm even after running for a week, or the block either for that matter. I think I'm gonna leave the oil pan heater on tonight while I sleep so if you never hear from me again at least you'll know what happened... :) ...It's supposed to get down to 25 degrees here at Bandelier NM tomorrow night and the night after.
Just to be clear, even if this JB Weld fix works I still wouldn't exactly recommend buying a self adhesive oil pan heater for the 6V92TA because the oil pan doesn't have flat areas that are large enough for the pad(s). If I had to try this again using pad heaters knowing what I know now I'd get a pair of even smaller pads and mount them on either side of the oil pan. The pads I have are 250 watt each but I think 150 watt pads would provide plenty of heat and they'd probably fit the flat areas on the sides of the oil pan. I just need to warm the oil enough so the engine will crank fast enough to start. If I can get the oil up to 50 degrees or more that should be warm enough. My oil pan feels like it's above body temperature already when I put my hand on it after only running an hour or so. I could still use my existing water jacket heater with the oil pan heater if I really had to. I'll write more later after I do some cold weather starts with just the oil pan heater.