This summer I spent around 6 weeks in rehab for herniated cervical disk(s). MRI showed the problem in the fall of 2005 after our retirement trip from Ohio, S. Dakota, Alaska, Indiana (for the Granvention), then to Texas. The neural surgeon who read the MRI recommended some exercises that I did for about a year. I lived with this condition until last summer when my GP doctor recommended physical therapy. In addition to attempting to correct or improve the condition, the PE folks thought that the root cause was my posture (neck position) while walking, watching TV, working on the PC, and while driving the car and motorhome. I have made some adjustments while driving the car, but I am really feeling the most discomfort from driving the motorhome. I cannot sit in a position in the OEM Foretravel driver's seat that keeps my head and neck straight in line. I have tried various seat and sitting adjustments during our latest 2,300 mile trip from TN-OH-SD-TX.
From Forum member posts, I know that there are better driver's seats out there. But how and where does one "test drive" a seat before buying?
Thanks
Bob
I feel for you, Bob, I'm just recovering from six months of back problems, as well. Oddly, I could drive the coach, but nothing else! I have the Flexsteel "ultra captain's" leather seat with power adjustments. Get well soon. M
I put an air ride in and love it. I had back surgery in 2011 and it made a huge difference. Maybe you could test drive a new coach and see if it works.
Here you go
Knoedler Manufacturers — RV & Coach Luxury Seats (http://www.knoedler.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=category&virtuemart_category_id=9&Itemid=2)
Thanks John, when I drove 18-wheelers, my Pete had these: Truck Seats, Air Ride Suspension Seats, Heavy Duty Trucks Air Ride Seats (http://www.bostromseating.com)
These are for Big Trucks but you might give them a call
Bose Ride® Seat Suspension System for Heavy-Duty Trucking (http://www.boseride.com/)
I put one in the coach and love it. I like that you can swivel it but truthfully, I do not turn this one as there is a half wall behind it. We also got the theater style passenger seat they put in the IH and Phenix too. Very comfy for traveling in I have been told and pretty comfy for sleeping too, I have observed.
We were lucky enough to get a Knoedler Air Chief seat that someone pulled out of a Phenix or IH because they did not like it. You need a bit of "gravity" to make these things worthwhile, and I think the previous owner was a little skinny guy. It has made a HUGE difference for Jeff because of the infinite adjustments of the back and the sort of "floating" effect while going down the road. The back of the seat is VERY supportive and has 3 different lumbar bars that can be adjusted. the armrests are adjustable, as well. I need to play with it some more to see where it works best for me .... but I do not drive very much. In warm weather, it blows cool air on your seat and back, too!!!
Bob,
I still have to be very careful, but I was fortunate and found a pair of surgeons (one nerve and one bone) that practice and operate together, as a team, and do miracles.Having suffered with a couple of severely herniated discs for twenty years, having been blessed with two successful back operations (after years of agony and believing that surgery was the absolute last resort) and after having endured countless years of therapy, I can identify with your back issues and your desire to test drive various seating options. I assume that you have searched the forum and have read the previous posts, for example:http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23688.msg184920#msg184920I don't have a magical "test drive" answer for you but from experience, I can advise that it is nearly impossible to gauge the benefits of one seating option over another on short test drives. I have been fortunate in being able to drive several driver's seating options (Isringhausen {ISRI}, RECARO, Bostrom, USSC, Knoedler) over long distances and even then I found the final choice to be difficult. I did find it to be a bit more scientific to become very specific with my back surgeons and a trusted physical therapist regarding exactly what I needed to look for and to be aware of in trying to find a seat that specifically addressed my needs. From those discussions, I was able to better understand the parameters that I needed to focus on. For example:- range of posture adjustment needed for proper head/neck/upper, mid ,lower back/hip alignment — have them critique what you think is proper posture — more than once
- degree of side support and lumbar support adjustability needed — how much, how "cupped" and how firm
- the proper arm posture and support dimensions
- the proper leg posture and support dimensions
[/list]
From test drives and from all of the above, I had determined that the Knoedler seat offered me the most advantages and it became an additional deciding factor in the purchase of our current coach. One of the few seating options that I never tried is the Bose. If I understand the Bose system correctly, it is technology similar to their headphones noise cancellation except that it is high and low frequency motion that is induced to cancel/nullify the high and low frequency seat vibrations/movements in heavy trucks. Having experienced class 7 & 8 heavy trucks without cab or cabin suspensions, and knowing that Foretravels don't have that type of vibration/movement, the Bose option wasn't pursued. The Bose option is designed to solve a problem that we don't have and if you think the Knoedler option is expensive, Bose charges a lot more pennies for solving the problem we don't have.A few ways to try a lot seats is to drop in to a few Peterbilt, Kenworth and Freightliner dealerships. Many have various air seats on the showroom floors. Another option is going to the truck shows in the cities -- they all have the latest and greatest. And of course, try to find some Foretravels, Prevost conversions and Newells that have air seats that you can fiddle with and ask questions about. Forum friends especially!
Now that I have had several thousand miles of experience with the Knoedler seat, I should take this opportunity to update my previous post and say that the Knoedler choice has been ideal for me. Both the Flexsteel and the Villa driver's seats that we had in the 1998 U270, used to bother my back badly, whereas most car seats did not. To my consternation, on long trips, the Lexus seats always did. The Knoedler seat, though, has never bothered my back and on days like today (> 400 mile days) I have had no seat related discomfort. I do stand by my previous assessment that it will be difficult to install one air seat for two individuals of widely different heights and weights. Due to the range of the air piston upon which the seat "floats", the vertical range appropriate for one is going to make it marginal to unacceptable for the other. Our seat height ranges perfectly for me but is too high off the floor for my wife. If it could be installed about 3 inches lower for her (it can't), it would be too low for me. Unlike others, we re-position (swivel) the seat at every overnight stop, to use it in conjunction with the other coach seating. As installed, ours is fast and easy to re-position.The air leak down problem (that I mentioned in my previous post), was easily found and rectified. It was just a loose fitting in the seat that needed tightening.Hope this helps,Neal
Our seats have both settled towards to center of the coach and need restuffing. Does anyone have a scource who is good at these Flexsteel seats??
Brian.
These days, it's almost cheaper to buy fresh seats (perhaps an upgrade?) What's a coach buck or so for if not to provide comfort?
This years coach bucks went into the Silverleaf instrument display and the brake caliper pins!!!
Maybe next year?? The seat most certainly didn't collapse under the weight of my wallet!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian.
Maybe if several of us get together we can get a deal on Knoedler chairs.
+1 here on the group buy
Was looking at the Bostrom brand also,will look for a over the road expo,there must be one where they have all these seats to
try on for size.
+2 here!
Count me in, as well, #3. Where do we circle the coaches?
Yes please, I want a new seat.
I will join up on this group effort also Brad Metzger
OK boys and girls.
Knoedler Manufacturers — RV & Coach Luxury Seats : Grand Chief (http://www.knoedler.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=2&virtuemart_category_id=9&Itemid=2)
The earlier GV models might need a different chair to match their geometry.
Swivel would be nice. Heat and cool would be nice. Not sure about arms at least for me.
Maybe if we approach FOT with an order for 8 or 10 chairs they will do a deal especially if they do the upholstery. Just thinking. Opinions?
What about the other chair?
I think the seats are upholstered by Mfg., not FOT. Even the ones they use on the new coaches - FOT specifies the material and Knoedler builds and covers the seats. I
like getting them from Flanigan and FT - maybe a set price on the seat and install - options would be extra (lots of configuration options
Look at Neal's original post. It looks like they used a Villa base for non powered swivel and Villa Ultraleather fabrics upholstered at FT to match existing upholstery. More homework required. Plus I need to find matching upholstery/comfy seat for the pass side.
Regarding the Knoedler seats, I doubt that FOT would allow me to test drive any motorhome for the purpose of testing the seat! If I ever replace our OEM seat, would the replacement seat mount into the four bolts through the floor? Or do they attach on a platform that then mounts through the floor?
Other than walking into a Camping World, do any other seat manufactures have seats on display that can be sat on before buying?
Bob
I opted out a Knoedler with heat and cooling,was $3500.00,the bose were around $6000.00.
Hmmm. I will call Flanigan. Thought FOT specified or supplied Fabric to Knoedler
Good! I have met him but you have had him do work for you. I am not sire how this works, who does what.
Thanks.
If and when this seat replacement goes down,I for one would be interested in an old seat or two.
Roger/Tim,Good advice. Dave Flanagan would certainly know and help.I don't know if this is the way that it works now, but, this is the way that it used to be:FOT specifies the seat design details, based upon customer input.
VILLA either has the Knoedler (pronounced "Need-ler") seats in stock or they have rapid access to them.
Either way, Knoedler builds the bare seat with the elected options.
BTW, Knoedler adds seat options based upon a VILLA specification to Knoedler:
For example: ambient air "cooling" and electric heat strip heating as well as the fan to push the (Ambient or Heated) air to the perforated sections of the seat.
For example: seat massage functions.
VILLA covers the seat in the FOT specified fabric and installs the FOT specified swivel base/complete with the lap seat belts,
VILLA ships to FOT.
FOT installs the seat using FOT bolt holes and bolts that are standard for that model and year of coach.
Hope this helps,
Neal
[/list]
After Neal's post, I withdraw my offer of "buying in bulk". Sounds like each install is custom, depending on the coach. :'(
Well, let me see if Flanigan can give us a discount if we round up 10 orders via the FOT process, and confirm process. NAC install may be required.
Have a call into Flanigan
Update.
Spoke with David Flanigan at FOT. No real easy way to save money it seems. David Quoted about $6,000 for the seat, plus 3-5 hours of labor to install at he shop rate (if you want one to match your coaches upholstery,) 4-6 weeks lead time. The seat is as previously reported purchased from Knoedler and the custom cover (or perhaps recover?) to match existing coach interior is done at Villa. The install takes a bit of time wince this is an "air ride" type seat and they need to plumb an air line to the drivers area.
David said everyone that has put in the seat LOVES it, with the exception of two folks 120 lbs. or less. who didn't like it, David surmised it didn't work correctly for people that weight or lighter.
At least i would;don't have the weight issue........
You tube of Knoedler Power Chief here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA0VzxHcO8w
One on-line source:
Truck Seat Knoedler Power Chief (http://www.seat-specialists.com/products/knoedler-power-chief.html)
Looks like they are made in Canada and it take two weeks from order to ship at this web site. (I didn't do a lot of web searches, their may be other better priced web sites in the web universe, there may well be other and better priced on-line retailers;
Seat starts at $2,599 plus $249 flat rate shipping at this site. Options can add $500 or more to the purchase price (arms and swivel capability, plus heat/cool etc. are all "options"). These seats come in Knoedlers "stock" fabrics/leathers from this web site at these prices.
Easy to see how a seat gets to $6,000 if Villa has to order a fully optioned seat from Knoedler and it is shipped to Villa. They then strip off the seat covers, buy new material and reupholster a brand new chair and pay to ship it to FOT. FOT then has to add their profit (usually 40% of their purchase price, but probably 30% or less in this example) and then sell it to the end user. No sure why FT doesn't buy seat from manufacturer and cover it in house, or maybe Villa does buy seats from Knoedler without ay covering on them. If that were the case, I would expect them to be on Villa's web page, as a Knoedler seat, but this is Villa's RV driver web page, and no mention of Knoedler or picture of what would appear to be a power chief.
Villa International Products (http://www.villainternational.com/products/seats.htm#ita)
Anyway, that is what I found. I just had everything done in ultra leather at FOT including original driver and co=pilot seats, so my fabrics are current and available. I may call Knoedler on Monday to see if they would do custom upholstery direct from them, but given that they go to Villa from Knoedler I doubt it. Seems different that FOT doesn't just buy direct from Knoedler and then recover themselves, but maybe Knoedler has too large of an annual minimum purchase volume for it to make sense for FOT to be a dealer.
Thats all folks!
and one last link - the web page for the power chief at Knoedler's site.
Knoedler Manufacturers — Luxury On-Highway : Power-Chief (http://www.knoedler.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=1&virtuemart_category_id=8&Itemid=2)
DIY on a Knoedler here Knoedler Air Ride (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=25902.0)
So if Villa gets the seats from Knoedler, covers them and uses a base for a FT then ...
Could one buy a seat (or a matching pair) from Knoedler with standard fabrics or what they mention as custom fabrics with the options you want and mount it to the existing base and do the electrical and plumbing stuff yourself?
Just trying to figure out what is possible.
Think I will call Knoedler Roger and ask a few questions
If you go on line and follow the links to on-line sellers (Seat Specialists) you get this...
Knoedler Grand Chief $2608 (looks like it includes flat shipping of $199)
23" wide
Upgraded head rest
Dual Arms (~$90) (not sure if I want arms at all)
Heat and cool
Synthetic leather
Perforated center panels
Air swivel (not sure how this works)
Air compressor (maybe you only need one)
Adapter plate (not sure which one)
Left or right controls (driver or pass seat)
Some installation required. Lot less than $6K each plus install. More homework required.
Agreed, mine was cursory
Roger,
In the interest of more complete disclosure, the Knoedler "Grand Chief" that you refer to does not include the "Power Chief" eight-way power (motor) positioning functions, so it won't be as easy to position the seat (seat front/back, up/down functions, seat forward/aft adjustment, seat back rake adjustment).
I studied and traveled to see the Knoedler seat fabrics and also felt, if the Foretravel/Villa seat Ultra Leather and swivel pedestal(s) weren't used, that the Knoedler stock seat(s) would not look and feel like the rest of the living room furniture, much less be as convenient and easy to use with the living room seating group. The Knoedler stock seats (as well as other brand, stock, air-suspended seats), kind of felt and looked like ugly ducklings misplaced into an otherwise thoughtfully designed and coordinated living room.
I'm sure that's where a lot of the additional Foretravel cost factors in (in addition to the installation labor).
You probably already realize all of this, but I just didn't want you or others to overlook these factors by accident.
Neal
Thanks, Neal. I checked with other Knoedler buyers and it looks like the Power Chief is the way to go. It looks like is has a non power swivel option and Ultra Leathers are available. Still probably 40% less than FT price. Even more homework required. Our coach is in the barn for the next 3-4 months so the urgency has subsided a bit.
Have not been to Quartz site but am planning in 2016,if these seat manufacturers have booths there they will probably
have some sort of show pricing.
My fresh Flexsteel electric adjust works fine for me. I am envious of the coach bucks a few of you are ready to spend on "The Ultimate Chair". ^.^d
I really dislike the pilot and copilots seats in my coach but it's just impossible for me to swallow 6K for an upgrade. I have looked several times for a used seat and have never found one. Has anyone found a used one?
Think about it: we're all of different sizes and shapes and sit differently. Our Airstream had very low miles when we bought her and the seats (Flexsteel) were comfy for twenty years. Butt, (pun intended) I'd bet the folks who bought the AS have trouble with the seats. A used seat would be a bad decision, IMHO.
Mike, We haven't spent anything yet and the DW has the final word on this one. Tires are first on the list. It is two years or more worth of fuel.
Understand where you're coming from, Roger. I don't think anyone has gotten away with just replacing the driver's seat! ;)
Talked to a rep at Seat Specialists | New Air Suspension Truck Seats and Heavy Equipment Seats (http://www.seat-specialists.com/) about using a different ultra-leather color. Said it can be done but has to be a special order with a $200 up charge and a 4 to 6 week delivery date. Still a good deal over FOT.
I'm having trouble getting up off my wallet to buy one. Not so sure how it will fit in the Uni-Home. It's pretty tight with the old Flex-Steel. The sales man still calls me about once a month looking for a sale. I asked if any discounts were ever available and he wouldn't say how much but left the door open for some bargaining.
see ya
ken
Ken, is your Flexsteel original? What's a fresh leather electric + DW leather seat go for these days?
I'll join the group buy for a Knoedler!
@Mike,
Pretty sure my seats are original. The foam has lost most of it's support. :( Not sure what the FlexSteels go for. Considerably cheaper than the Knoedler I'd imagine.
see ya
ken
My Flexsteel seats are original and toast. That said I thought that getting them reupholstered would make them "like new" again. Wouldn't that be more economical than new seats?
Roland
Ours our original Villas. The foam is breaking down in both. You cannot get the original foam anymore. Maybe we could cobble something together for foam and reupholster. Many have done something like this in Mexico with good results but I am not likely to go that way. Just looking at all the options here.
replacing_seat_foam_in_motorhome_chair (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/replacing-seat-foam.html)
stump, I've been wondering if there was a more economical way to get the foam (seat part only) replaced, my driver's seat has a bit of an issue & this would be a great alternative to spending the full amount on replacing the whole seat. I just blew almost 9 coach bucks on other fun items at MOT so am looking for a few smarter ways to do necessary upgrades down the road. Appreciate this, thanks! ^.^d
Dani,My seats are soft also a firmer bottom would do mine good. It's on my list just not at the top .
The original foam in our seats was molded to shape and fit. Villa says the molds are gone and there are now replacement foam parts. You could cut and glue pieces of foam together to get something similar but what density and ???. You could spend a lot of time and money and get something worse. It would be nice and if it was easy.
I thought the seats were Flexsteel?
Yes, at least on our 2001 320 they are Flexsteel.
Brian.
Wow! All of our dreams come true: a custom seat for our fat butts. ^.^d
Specs from the factory for our coach are for Villa Leather pilot and copilot chairs. Yours may be different. Ours are definitely Villa.
The foam was molded and shaped to fit the chair frame and the original seat shape. If the shape of mine now fits your shape then I am very sorry for you.
About 3 yrs ago, I had MOT remove the driver seat to be restuffed / repaired back to like new.
The results were disappointing, it's time for something new / better. The idea of a dozen coach bucks to cure the issue defies common sense at the moment .
The FT upholstery shop will rebuild your seats. Talk to David Flanagan about a quote.
Skip the passenger. I just had passenger recovered at FOT with ultra leather. So looking for the option of Knoedler doing one for me in Ultraleather would be perfect.
They just rebuilt my seats in May. As much as I love Flanigan and my remodel this year, drivers seat not right. $1500 for the job in ultra leather, they have reworked it once in July, probably worse now to sit on but looks better. Why I am thinking Knoedler
Looks like the driver's seat discussion ended a year ago without anyone taking the plunge? I'll risk bringing this thread back to life as our coach shopping has shown that 20 year old seats don't seem to be as rugged at the rest of the FT coach.
Have any of you participating in the previous thread made any decisions?
Thanks
We have fresh "Flexsteel" chairs, with auto adjust, they sure work great! Everyone drives different, with different butt weights and angle of driving, the chairs can be uncomfortable and dangerous without "knowing your chair". I'd buy fresh. ^.^d
We are getting new foam in our front seats at MOT in January. Both seats, less than $1K. Love to have a pair of Knoedler's but at $12K+ ... new foam will be OK.
Found used Knoedler Powercheif in NAC, recovered at MOT, heaven..
Tim - You must be living right. 👌
Yes, was really lucky. Another owner sold his FT and downsized, he had bought the seat as a take out from David Flanagan, recovered it and a year lair decided to sell his FT. I was in NAC and had asked David about getting a Power Cheif as a take out - he said he didn't have one. Next day I was in the shop standing next to David and he got the call from the owner saying he had sold his coach, but had taken out the seat and it was for sale. David said wait a second and handed his phone to me. I bought it, and owner brought up from Houston and left at FT, where David covered to match my co-pilot seat that was recently recovered.
Was pure luck - all in with seat, recover and install, just a bit over three coach bucks.
The PO had a Knoedler driver seat installed. The Villa passenger seat was wore out. It's was too wide, flat and so slick it was hard to get comfortable on it. Another Villa seat would be too expensive.
So we bought a Flexsteel chair, 6 way power, power pedestal, swivel ect in Brisa Distressed Saddle (2,250), 4 yards Matching material (300.00) and had the drivers seat upholstered to match (450.00). Install for the passenger seat was (100.00).
We also bought retractable seat (lap) belt for (65.00).
So for about 3,400.00 (including tax) we have new very comfortable seats at a reasonable price.
Jon,
Sounds like my wife's complaint about our existing Flexsteel copilot seat. What was different about the one you installed?
Thanks,
Trent
Tulsa, first it's not as wide, no longer "slick" whereas she would slide down, is way more comfortabe and really looks good wearing ultra leather. We should have done this several years ago.
Sign wife up for the ladies driving school. They may offer the spouses (us guys) an opportunity to drive a Iron Horse 45 in the obstacle course again. The Knoedler seat and driving the Iron Horse was wunderbar!
The factory tour was very interesting too!