Why would the microwave/convection trip the ATS under the bed? EMS shows no fault. Just started yesterday evening. The ATS flutters back and forth. Replaced the ATS 2 summers ago.
Agree, that is a strange one.
I would sure turn off all 120 VAC power sources and open the ATS. Check that all connections are clean and tight. The ATS does not (at least should not) react to high amp draw. That is the job of the breakers.
Thanks Brett -
I was hoping you would see this post. Once the DW is up - another 15 min or so I will attach the micro wave to a different outlet and see if I still have the same problem. I will also get my multi meter out and check the outlet.
I will also start the gen set and see what happens there.
OK, but would still verify that the connections are tight. Loose connections is the #1 killer of ATS's.
I'll shut down shore power and check all ATS connections first. :D
Yup, just to be safe (since there are many ways these can be wired depending on year and equipment):
Shore power unplugged.
Generator off. Auto gen set start OFF
Inverter OFF
Check - power off
Check - Auto gen start off
Check - Inverter off
Had one loose power load connector. Tightened and OK now. Also alot quieter.
Thanks all. :D
Was out for a couple of hours and came back now the ATS is fluttering alot. Turned off power. :-(
OK, just got off the phone from talking with Scott. This is the secondary ATS that supplies the sub-panel for "inverter-powered" circuits.
Next time it "misbehaves" he will check incoming voltage. If 120 and steady, the ATS is likely bad. If power in is fluctuating, likely the problem is 'upstream"of this ATS.
Suggested that Scott run through all connections to check for tightness and look for any sign of overheating/melting of insulation at the following-- all these "upstream" of this ATS:
CG outlet
Male end shore power cord
Power reel to house wiring
?Progressive EMS?
Main ATS
Main breaker box
Secondary ATS
In process.
Thanks Brett. ^.^d
Tightened all the connections I could get to. No more fluttering. Thanx Brett. ;D
Started fluttering again this afternoon. Guess I will continue down Brett's list. Have also called Progressive Dynamics, Inc. but of course they are closed. In the mean time we will boondock at Rayford Crossing. ;D
Since the ATS under the bed is secondary it transfers power between - Generator/shore power and Inverter. I turned off street power with generator off and checked lugs from Inverter - have 120vac. Switch is not allowing Inverter 120vac to flow to output to breaker box hense no power to TV, microwave, Res. Refer - everything in that box is dead. So will contact Progressive Dynamics, Inc in the AM to see whats shakin.
In the meantime no fluttering. Would like to see it flutter to check input power from Shore/Generator power for fluctuations.
Thanks again Brett. :-D
Fluttering just woke us up at 12:15 AM and promptly raised the bed, fired up the multimeter and put them on the incoming power from the Street/generator side. Solid 123vac. Hard to tell if there were fluctuations in the power voltage as the fluttering was so fast. We are using a Milwaukee Clamp Meter 2235-20. Tried to get outside to check the pedestal and the Progressive but it decided to stop.
Soooooooo here it is 12:40AM waiting to get sleepy again so the fricken fluttering can wake us up again. Should have accepted our neighbor's offer of a Klondike bar. It would sure taste good now. I guess we'll have to settle for Cheetos and diet cola. :dance:
Just got off the phone with Tech Support from Progressive Dynamics, Inc. and the ATS was fluttering while we were on the phone. He advised that the Microwave could be causing power fluctuations thus causing the ATS to switch but felt that there is a very low probability of that occurring. We did put the multi meter on all of the lugs to detect voltage and fluctuations. Turned shore power off and ATS did not automatically change to inverter. He asked me to push down, engage the ATS contacts for the inverter which I did using a rubberhandled screwdriver. It engaged. Started genset and it switched - no flutter. Turned off genset and turned on shore power - no fluttering for a while then it started again. The fluttering is not constant it comes and goes often multiple flutters then stops for a while. We are now on shore power again and it has not switched/fluttered for 30 mins.
Solution - Get a can of compressed air and blow through the contacts as some times dirt build up can cause this anomaly. If it continues he suggested exchange the input side of the shore/generator leg with the inverter side. He also asked if I could put a 30 amp "enclosed breaker" unit that they sell. I advised that should I replace the ATS I would want to put in another 50 amp unit. Progressive Industries does not make a 50 amp "enclosed" contact ATS.
Our Magnum 2812 does have an internal ATS. I may call Magnum and float this problem past them and determin what it will take to bypass the ATS under the bed and use the built in ATS in the Magnum. I will also try to source an ATS that has "enclosed".
Note: While fluttering this AM I did use the multimeter at the shore power/Progressive PT50 connection and then at the Progressive PT50 and coach umbilical. Did not detect any power flucuation. I am not convinced that our Milwaukee multimeter would even register the quick power interruptions that we are seeing. An oscilloscope would probably detect the fluctuations but unfortunately both of our oscilloscopes are down. ;D
Sooooooooooooooo - am off to Ace to get a can of compressed air. In the meantime no fluttering.
Two years ago when we installed our 2812 I thought I had asked Magnum Tech Support if we could bypass that switching relay/ATS and was advised:
"You could do that but you will need to move the 6/2G wire from the main buss in the main panel to thirty amp breaker or wire the inverter for single in single out 60 amp and change the wire on the output of the inverter to 6/2G also. This is because the 6/2G there now is protected by a 50 amp breaker and all wire must be sized for that size overcurrent protection. FYI I would probably do this if it was my installation, one less failure point."
I guess I could do this if I actually understood what it means. If I were to do this I would certainly need an electrical geek to oversee and instruct me what to do where.
Will check on "enclosed" ATS.
Just talked to Tech Support as Esco and he advised that I pick up a cheap, $20+/- analog multimeter. The analog will show the power fluctuations if any.
Shopping list is growing: Compressed air and analog multimeter. Crap.
Scott,
Keep us posted. I also have a 2812 and the concept of avoiding a problem-prone ATS sounds like a good idea.
Trent
Picked up the analog multimeter, alligator clips for test lines and air. Battery in the new multimeter, made the junper test lines and blew out the contacts. Attached the test jumper lines to the multimeter, turned it on, started the microwave and flutter, flutter flutter. Turned microwave off and still some fluttering. In looking at the transfer switch it looked as if the inverter side of the switch was wanting to energize causing the shore power to switch off. I also started the generator followed the same process and the ATS was fluttering away.
Will partially pull the plug on the microwave and look for power fluctuations when I turn it on.
Did not observe power fluctuations with the micro outlet or plug. Did check voltage on the Main Panel that is fed by this ATS and tightened all of the lugs (all were tight), flipped each breaker a few times just for the heck of it. Still had some fluttering whether shore or generator powered. When shore power or generator is not on the invertor contacts doe not engage. I can press the contacts down with a rubber handled screw driver and the coach becomes energized. The contacts do not stay down by them selves.
The Tech guy from Progressive Dynamics, Mfger. of ATS, called back and after I review every thing that I had done and all of the variables that I went through, he suggested I replace the transfer switch. I asked him if that was odd as it is only 2 years old. He agreed but did say that the switch was probably bad.
Driving to PPL, SE Houston to get the part. ESCO550M-65 - $179.93. Hope it installs easy.
New Esco ES50M-65 Installed. Took about 1.5 hours to pull the other one out and put this one in. $179.95 + tax @ PPL.
Everything works fine again.
Thanks to all for your help - you know who you are.
Wonderful forum - just another case where we couldn't have gotten it figgured out or done without the members here. ^.^d
I have taken some pics and will try to put them together for the FoFum file for those folks that would like to see how it happened.
Please - especially considering the OEM Parallax ATS-100 was discontinued. For those who face this issue in the future, the photo essays are priceless.
While pictures may be of interest, ATS's are pretty standard in how they are wired.
30 amps have two sources of 120 VAC in, with ONE hot, neutral and ground from each source. One line out with ONE hot, neutral and ground.
50 amp ATS's have two sources of power (can get nitpicky as to whether it is 120/240 VAC) with TWO hots, a neutral and ground. One line out with TWO hots, a neutral and a ground.
Note that many inverter/chargers have a built in transfer switch, so no need to have a second one (first one being shore power/generator).
Yes, but photos of how it was mounted, etc., is what I was talking about.
Just a follow up on Brett's suggestions and what we did and did not do.
- CG outlet - Checked outlets - Found every outlet in the coach and the only one that had the CG outlet was in the bathroom. Brett strongly suggested that FT installed another but only found one. Did not call FT to confirm. Used the 110vac FT drawing in owners manual to find all outlets.
- Male end shore power cord - Checked - consistant power.
- Power reel to house wiring - Did not check as we were having the same issue when the generator was running. The generator bypasses the shore power reel in the Main ATS
- Progressive EMS? - Disconnected the EMS and had the same issue.
- Main ATS - Checked the Main ATS voltage In and OUT with shore power and Gen set. No variation in voltage. All lugs and screws were/are tight
- Main breaker box - Checked every lug and breaker for tightness and power flow. All steady.
- Secondary ATS - Replaced - Had no power fluctuations from shore/gen set and/or inverter Input lugs. Inverter side would not stay connected even though it was energized.
Thanks Brett.
Scott,
I must be having a senior moment (it is alfer sundown here). What is a CG outlet?
Thanks,
Trent
Trent, that is the outlet that has the test circuit breaker in the centre and will trip if any grounding is on the circuit. The one by sink in bathroom.
JohnH
reading that I meanto say Ground fault plug but maybe he was reffering to the Camp Ground plug you hook cord to!!
I usually see that as Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt (GFCI). The CG nomenclature is what threw me. When he wakes up, he can tell us what he meant. ;D
Trent
OK - I'm awake.
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt (GFCI) in our bath room mounted on the sink base.
Reviving this thread because we are having the crazy ATS fluttering the Scott had. On of our ATS' (the shore//generator ATS in the basement or the shore/generator // inverter ATS under the bed) is fluttering. We have a hardwired Progressive 50A EMS in the basement that I installed and I'll check the connection tightness on it as well. The EMS display shows normal voltages and no errors during the fluttering.
Shore/Genset ATS (basement)---->EMS---->Shore--Genset/Inverter ATS (under bed)
I'm going to start checking the items above.
Just had another fluttering incident. I'm seeing a PE5 code on the Progressive EMS display (previous error 5). Perhaps that code has been there each time before and I've missed it. Error 5 is high voltage on leg 2 of the incoming power. My working hypothesis is that high voltage on leg 2 is causing the EMS to interrupt power. When it restores power there are 30A to 40A loads (electric radiant heaters, AH 120V heat, etc.) on each leg and starting the ATS with those loads is unmasking the ATS problem. Thoughts?
All the connections in the coach were tight. Opened the pedestal and found one of the legs on the 50A breaker in the pedestal was intermittent and finally failed hard. Apparently the fluttering was only in the ATS in the basement that is tied directly to the pedestal. The maintenance man is sourcing another breaker. In the meantime we're up and running on the 30A to 50A pigtail converter.
I could also be a neutral problem. If you loose the neutral it can cause one leg to go high voltage and the other leg to go low voltage.