Title: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 03, 2015, 03:40:45 pm
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 03, 2015, 03:40:45 pm
I have decided to break out this battery cable information into its own thread. I have tried to pick up various messages as quotes into this initial message. I think the information may be useful.
Okay, if this works, we can continue the discussion of battery cables in its own message thread.
[With fingers crossed!]
Trent
Peter,
Have you had enough experiences with 4/0 cable to discuss the differences between standard, welding cable, and marine grade 4/0 cables? It seems like standard 4/0 may work from batteries to the bus bars and possibly from there to the isolator. But any more complex routing would definitely benefit from more flexible cable.
How about the price differences? Anybody know how the prices compare for, say 50 feet of the three types of 4/0 cabling?
Thanks,
Trent
Trent:
I have only used the untinned copper super flexible welding cable.
Here are the approx prices I have paid:
4/0 - $6.00 / ft
2/0 - $3.20 / ft
2 - $1.50 / ft
I think Don (Acousticart) has used the tinned marine cable, maybe he will chime in...
I used 4/0 marine cable and I "fondled" some 4/0 welding cable. I wasn't able to compare them side by side, but my feeling was that the welding cable was a bit more supple than the tinned marine cable. However, I found the marine cable quite workable and though more money (Bay Marine Supply's price at the time with a slight discount for frequent buying was $8.90 per foot), I just liked the idea of the tinned cable being basically corrosion proof in the RV application. There was apparently some high resistance in the interconnecting link between the original two chassis batteries. Replacing that short piece (actually doing away with it because I replaced the 2 red tops with one 8DAGM O'reilly battery), made all the difference in starting without boost. All of the other original cabling was still functioning just fine. But since the inverter upgrade (Magnum MSH3012M) called for 4/0 cabling, I felt obliged to replace all of the house battery cable and so opted for the more expensive marine cable because that is what made me happy :)) .
Don
Alan Ferber at Bay Marine Supply is a Forum Commercial Member and will give forum members 10% off just for asking. Nice guy to talk to on the phone as well.
Amazon has Ancor marine 4/0 tinned cable for about $10.75/ft including shipping. For some reason Black is more expensive than red.
Amazon.com : Ancor Marine Grade Electrical Tinned Copper Battery Cable :... (http://amazon.com/Ancor-119502-Electrical-Battery-0-Gauge/dp/B000NI3BOQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448159244&sr=8-1&keywords=Ancor+4%2F0+cable)
Bay Marine has 4/0 Marine cable for about $8.10 /ft. Looks like HD ends are reasonable too. Assembing the cable is $4.00. Not sure about shipping but it is $8.95 on most orders.
Custom 4/0 gauge marine battery cable (http://baymarinesupply.com/store/electrical/wiring/custom-battery-cables/custom-0000-gauge-marine-battery-cable.html)
WireNCable has 4/0 welding cable for $4.31/ft. 100 ft appears to ship free. Not sure what Class K means. EPDM cover. 90°C (194° F)
4/0 Welding Cable Class K (http://wirencable.com/4-0-welding-cable-class-k/?gclid=CPvs0P6Do8kCFQasaQodqzkGAA)
Here is another source that has both tinned marine cable and welding cable. Welding cable has 2007 strands. Both are rated to 105°C
4/0 AWG UL Approved Marine Grade Tinned Copper Boat Battery Cable Rated 600... (http://ewcswire.com/4-0-awg-ul-approved-marine-grade-tinned-copper-boat-battery-cable-rated-600-volts/)
Welding cable is about $5/ft. Marine cable about $10. Maybe marine cable in the engine bay and battery connections in there. In the bays maybe welding cable, more flexibility, less external environmental issues.
Roger
Okay, if this works, we can continue the discussion of battery cables in its own message thread.
[With fingers crossed!]
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 03, 2015, 04:07:58 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 03, 2015, 04:07:58 pm
I used welding cable for several runs for the solar controller and an extra battery ground. Great stuff especially if you can get it priced right. It is very flexible, in fact, so flexible that you may need to support it in some cases.
I soldered the lugs but you can also use an excellent crimper hammer style tool from Fastenal on sale for less than $14. Wholesale is almost twice that much. See at: Welding Cable Lug Crimper Hammer Style - CLEARANCE ITEM | Fastenal (http://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0844004) We have the blue one pictured and it works great.
Pierce.
I soldered the lugs but you can also use an excellent crimper hammer style tool from Fastenal on sale for less than $14. Wholesale is almost twice that much. See at: Welding Cable Lug Crimper Hammer Style - CLEARANCE ITEM | Fastenal (http://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0844004) We have the blue one pictured and it works great.
Pierce.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 05, 2015, 03:51:14 am
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 05, 2015, 03:51:14 am
Once I found a good deal and bought three new Optima red top batteries, I had to do something about new cables, since my U295 only came with two batteries. To that end, I decided to go with two bus bars for the engine batteries, using 4/0 copper cables. That began my search for the best bang for the buck.
It looked like there were three choices: standard 4/0 cable, welding 4/0 cable, and marine 4/0 cable.
Standard 4/0 Cable:
Standard 4/0 cable is very hard to bend and fortunately, not easy to find. Lowe's did not sell it. Home Depot sold it online, but only in 500 foot rolls. Their 500' roll of 4/0 THHN Cable Wire, black, was $2,146, with free shipping, as "Ship to Store."
I also found it at O'Reilly's: BWD Bulk Battery Cables, red or black, for $10.49 per foot!
Both welding cable and marine cable were much more readily available online. They are both much more flexible than standard cable and more useful in our motorhome applications.
Welding 4/0 Cable:
Amazon sold EWCS and TEMC0 with free shipping:
Electrical Wire and Cable Specialist (EWCS)
4/0 AWG Premium Extra Flexible Welding Cable 600 Volt - Red - 50 Feet - Made in the USA! $199.80
4/0 AWG Premium Extra Flexible Welding Cable 600 Volt - Black - 50 Feet - Made in the USA! $249.80
(EWCS also sold the same cable on their website, ewcswire.com, with free shipping for $249.80 each.)
TEMCo Welding Lead & Car Battery Cable WC0329 - 50 ft Red 4/0 Gauge AWG $253.50
Marine 4/0 Cable:
Amazon sold marine cable by Ancor, with free shipping for Prime members:
Ancor 119005 Marine Grade Electrical Tinned Copper Battery Cable (4/0-Gauge, Black, 50-Feet) $338.65
Ancor 119505 Marine Grade Electrical Tinned Copper Battery Cable (4/0-Gauge, Red, 50-Feet) $419.90
EWCS sold the following on their website (black or red):
4/0 AWG UL Approved Marine Grade Tinned Copper Boat Battery Cable Rated 600 volts $419.80
Another website, genuinedeals.com, sold the following (black or red):
4/0 AWG Gauge Battery Cable Tinned Copper Marine Wire $9.72 per foot.
I had the ones from Amazon in my shopping cart. The day I logged on to make the purchase, the prices for Marine 4/0 cable increased by about $80 each. Consequently, I decided to go with the welding wire. Also, for some reason the black cable was $50 more than the red cable, so I bought two 50' rolls of the red cable from Amazon (EWCS) for a total price of $399.60, with no charge for shipping or sales tax.
The above prices are what are shown today. I do not know why the red and black cables are different prices. In my samples, the Red welding wire was cheaper than the black, and the black marine cable was cheaper than the red; go figure!
I have already spent too much time on this message, but I thought the pricing for 4/0 cable may be of interest to other members is they are considering purchasing some. As my small example shows, it pays to check various sites, to get the best bang for the buck.
Good luck in your searches,
Trent
It looked like there were three choices: standard 4/0 cable, welding 4/0 cable, and marine 4/0 cable.
Standard 4/0 Cable:
Standard 4/0 cable is very hard to bend and fortunately, not easy to find. Lowe's did not sell it. Home Depot sold it online, but only in 500 foot rolls. Their 500' roll of 4/0 THHN Cable Wire, black, was $2,146, with free shipping, as "Ship to Store."
I also found it at O'Reilly's: BWD Bulk Battery Cables, red or black, for $10.49 per foot!
Both welding cable and marine cable were much more readily available online. They are both much more flexible than standard cable and more useful in our motorhome applications.
Welding 4/0 Cable:
Amazon sold EWCS and TEMC0 with free shipping:
Electrical Wire and Cable Specialist (EWCS)
4/0 AWG Premium Extra Flexible Welding Cable 600 Volt - Red - 50 Feet - Made in the USA! $199.80
4/0 AWG Premium Extra Flexible Welding Cable 600 Volt - Black - 50 Feet - Made in the USA! $249.80
(EWCS also sold the same cable on their website, ewcswire.com, with free shipping for $249.80 each.)
TEMCo Welding Lead & Car Battery Cable WC0329 - 50 ft Red 4/0 Gauge AWG $253.50
Marine 4/0 Cable:
Amazon sold marine cable by Ancor, with free shipping for Prime members:
Ancor 119005 Marine Grade Electrical Tinned Copper Battery Cable (4/0-Gauge, Black, 50-Feet) $338.65
Ancor 119505 Marine Grade Electrical Tinned Copper Battery Cable (4/0-Gauge, Red, 50-Feet) $419.90
EWCS sold the following on their website (black or red):
4/0 AWG UL Approved Marine Grade Tinned Copper Boat Battery Cable Rated 600 volts $419.80
Another website, genuinedeals.com, sold the following (black or red):
4/0 AWG Gauge Battery Cable Tinned Copper Marine Wire $9.72 per foot.
I had the ones from Amazon in my shopping cart. The day I logged on to make the purchase, the prices for Marine 4/0 cable increased by about $80 each. Consequently, I decided to go with the welding wire. Also, for some reason the black cable was $50 more than the red cable, so I bought two 50' rolls of the red cable from Amazon (EWCS) for a total price of $399.60, with no charge for shipping or sales tax.
The above prices are what are shown today. I do not know why the red and black cables are different prices. In my samples, the Red welding wire was cheaper than the black, and the black marine cable was cheaper than the red; go figure!
I have already spent too much time on this message, but I thought the pricing for 4/0 cable may be of interest to other members is they are considering purchasing some. As my small example shows, it pays to check various sites, to get the best bang for the buck.
Good luck in your searches,
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 05, 2015, 09:28:28 am
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 05, 2015, 09:28:28 am
Trent,
I like the marine cable in an exterior location, it is much more weather resistant. Inside welding cable is good. The extra flexibilty of these cables make them easier to run and more vibration resistant.
If you don't have all of the crimping tools or you haven't priced out HD cable ends yet them chack at Bay Marine Supply. They will make any size or length of cable you want with the ends you need for what looks to be pretty fair prices. And Alan gives 10% off to Forum members and he has a $8.95 flat shipping fee, He will probably sell you bulk cable as well.
I like the marine cable in an exterior location, it is much more weather resistant. Inside welding cable is good. The extra flexibilty of these cables make them easier to run and more vibration resistant.
If you don't have all of the crimping tools or you haven't priced out HD cable ends yet them chack at Bay Marine Supply. They will make any size or length of cable you want with the ends you need for what looks to be pretty fair prices. And Alan gives 10% off to Forum members and he has a $8.95 flat shipping fee, He will probably sell you bulk cable as well.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: rsihnhold on December 05, 2015, 09:40:18 am
Post by: rsihnhold on December 05, 2015, 09:40:18 am
It is good that you didn't use "standard" 4/0 cable for your DC system, which I'm assuming is either THHN/W or XHHW insulation. The temperature rating on those insulation types isn't nearly as high (either 75C or 90C depending on wet or dry environment) which gives it a much lower ampacity, along with the lack of flexibility.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 05, 2015, 11:07:22 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 05, 2015, 11:07:22 am
Here is a good example of welding cable in both red and black. 15' red, 15' black - 30' total for $130 total delivered, no tax. 30' 4 0 Welding Cable Excelene 15 Feet Red and 15 Feet Black Made in... (http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-4-0-WELDING-CABLE-EXCELENE-15-FEET-RED-AND-15-FEET-BLACK-MADE-IN-USA-NEW-/350932977752)
I soldered mine with shrink tubing covering the cable and most of the lug. Makes for a nice waterproof cable and minimizes corrosion.
This is good cable to bring your battery or electrical bus to your remotely mounted solar controller so you have virtually no voltage loss.
Pierce
I soldered mine with shrink tubing covering the cable and most of the lug. Makes for a nice waterproof cable and minimizes corrosion.
This is good cable to bring your battery or electrical bus to your remotely mounted solar controller so you have virtually no voltage loss.
Pierce
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 05, 2015, 11:08:27 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 05, 2015, 11:08:27 am
Shade tree method of soldering. Buy copper lugs for 4/0 cable, electrical solder, rosin paste flux (home depot), shrink tubing large enough to slide over cable. Using a razor blade or very sharp knife, cut back insulation so the cable will slide in the copper lug all the way plus have about 1/8" copper showing. Slide shrink tubing a foot or so back down the cable. Using a gas stove or propane torch, heat the end of the copper cable and let solder flow until cable turns silver. Make sure no strands stick out so it will slide into the copper lug. Slide into the copper lug, heat with flame, feed solder into the small gap between the lug and the vinyl covering. Allow to cool. Slide shrink wrap down to cover about 3/4 of an inch of the copper lug. Heat over flame until the shrink tubing shrinks. Shrink tubing is available in red or black in case you have all black cable.
Forgot the photo below:
Forgot the photo below:
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 05, 2015, 11:27:56 am
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 05, 2015, 11:27:56 am
Pierce, nice find, 105°C, good price, no tax, free shipping and cut to length so if you ordered two you will get 1-30' each red and black. Looks like you can get just red or just black as well.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 05, 2015, 11:57:27 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 05, 2015, 11:57:27 am
Roger,
Thanks. Pushing 75 volts and about 600 real watts from the panels on the roof to the controller is no big trick. Once the controller has dropped it to about 13.8 volts, it's a little tougher to push it to the batteries/electrical bus about 8 or 10 feet away.
Our panels may seem to be a little overkill, I targeted the 600 effective watts as a good number for winter camping. I didn't want to have to climb up on the roof to tilt them toward the low sun, especially if the roof was wet as a slip and fall was only a matter of time with the minimum of space to walk up there. I also wanted to be able to read the display at eye level and not lose 2 or 3 percent to cable loss on the way to the batteries.
4/0 cables are also good for that extra ground to the closest point to the negative battery terminals or a forgotten but important chassis to engine ground cable or/and if still in doubt, doubling or replacing the positive OEM battery to starter cable. This will essentially bring the battery close to the starter with lower loss in harsh winter cranking conditions. Failure to crank at normal speeds then becomes either a fault in the starter motor or old/undersized/bad cell batteries if the terminals are nice and clean. No "thick oil" excuse.
Pierce
Thanks. Pushing 75 volts and about 600 real watts from the panels on the roof to the controller is no big trick. Once the controller has dropped it to about 13.8 volts, it's a little tougher to push it to the batteries/electrical bus about 8 or 10 feet away.
Our panels may seem to be a little overkill, I targeted the 600 effective watts as a good number for winter camping. I didn't want to have to climb up on the roof to tilt them toward the low sun, especially if the roof was wet as a slip and fall was only a matter of time with the minimum of space to walk up there. I also wanted to be able to read the display at eye level and not lose 2 or 3 percent to cable loss on the way to the batteries.
4/0 cables are also good for that extra ground to the closest point to the negative battery terminals or a forgotten but important chassis to engine ground cable or/and if still in doubt, doubling or replacing the positive OEM battery to starter cable. This will essentially bring the battery close to the starter with lower loss in harsh winter cranking conditions. Failure to crank at normal speeds then becomes either a fault in the starter motor or old/undersized/bad cell batteries if the terminals are nice and clean. No "thick oil" excuse.
Pierce
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 07, 2015, 04:05:16 am
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 07, 2015, 04:05:16 am
Now that I have the 4/0 welding cable, I need something to cut it with and something to crimp the terminal lugs. I do not need to buy high-end professional tools, since I am not doing this for a living. I need these cable tools to be good enough to do the job. With that in mind, I have found two candidates on Amazon, both with free shipping:
TMS® Heavy Duty Aluminum Copper Ratchet Cable Cutter Cut up to 240 mm² Ratcheting Wire Cut Hand Tool for $27.25. It has received a rating of 4.5 out of 5 stars, with the following description:
Mechanical design easily cut copper or aluminum cable;Compact design can be used in tight areas;
Anti-slip rubber hand guard offers secure grip;Easily to cut with forging blade and long lifetime.
Light weight for one-handed operation;Easy to store and transport;With safety lock.
Not for cutting steel Or steel wire.Do not use to cut live wires.Package Includes: 1 Cable Cutter
TMS® Heavy Duty Aluminum Copper Ratchet Cable Cutter Cut up to 240mm²... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LBK0W74/ref=ox_sc_imb_mini_detail?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A24FJG9QJIEUE2)
TMS® 16 Ton Hydraulic Wire Battery Cable Lug Terminal Crimper Crimping Tool 11 Dies for $42.45. It has received a rating of 4.4 out of 5 stars, with the following description:
16 Ton Hydraulic Cable Crimper With 11 Dies and Carrying Case
Condition: 100% Brand New
TMS® 16 Ton Hydraulic Wire Battery Cable Lug Terminal Crimper Crimping Tool... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GXQ2E5E?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_10&smid=A24FJG9QJIEUE2)
I would appreciate if if those of you who have experience with cutting and crimping large copper cables would take the time to look at these two tools and let me know your opinion. If you have better alternatives to recommend, please let me know.
Thank you,
Trent
TMS® Heavy Duty Aluminum Copper Ratchet Cable Cutter Cut up to 240 mm² Ratcheting Wire Cut Hand Tool for $27.25. It has received a rating of 4.5 out of 5 stars, with the following description:
Mechanical design easily cut copper or aluminum cable;Compact design can be used in tight areas;
Anti-slip rubber hand guard offers secure grip;Easily to cut with forging blade and long lifetime.
Light weight for one-handed operation;Easy to store and transport;With safety lock.
Not for cutting steel Or steel wire.Do not use to cut live wires.Package Includes: 1 Cable Cutter
TMS® Heavy Duty Aluminum Copper Ratchet Cable Cutter Cut up to 240mm²... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LBK0W74/ref=ox_sc_imb_mini_detail?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A24FJG9QJIEUE2)
TMS® 16 Ton Hydraulic Wire Battery Cable Lug Terminal Crimper Crimping Tool 11 Dies for $42.45. It has received a rating of 4.4 out of 5 stars, with the following description:
16 Ton Hydraulic Cable Crimper With 11 Dies and Carrying Case
Condition: 100% Brand New
TMS® 16 Ton Hydraulic Wire Battery Cable Lug Terminal Crimper Crimping Tool... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GXQ2E5E?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_10&smid=A24FJG9QJIEUE2)
I would appreciate if if those of you who have experience with cutting and crimping large copper cables would take the time to look at these two tools and let me know your opinion. If you have better alternatives to recommend, please let me know.
Thank you,
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 07, 2015, 10:13:01 am
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 07, 2015, 10:13:01 am
Looks like the same thing on ebay for $26.50
16 Ton Hydraulic Wire Crimper Crimping Tool Battery Cable Lug Terminal w 11... (http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-w-11-Dies-/381042919467)
But add in shipping and Amazon with better customer service is good.
Cutter too for about $22
Ho many connections will you make in a lifetime? 50? Then even from Amazon you are just over $1 each. Way less than the price of the lugs.
I am a fan of buying the right tool for the job and usually buy better quality ones so that I never have to buy them again. I wonder about the hydraulic crimper vs a mechanical one. Many of these big 4/0 battery lugs are soldered. Another expensive option.
Peter Fleming (prfleming) has been making cables. He might have some good feedback.
300 amp Delco 40si alternator/isolator/cabling upgrade (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=26648.msg214852#msg214852)
The FTZ crimpers are definitely priced for a couple lifetimes.
16 Ton Hydraulic Wire Crimper Crimping Tool Battery Cable Lug Terminal w 11... (http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-w-11-Dies-/381042919467)
But add in shipping and Amazon with better customer service is good.
Cutter too for about $22
Ho many connections will you make in a lifetime? 50? Then even from Amazon you are just over $1 each. Way less than the price of the lugs.
I am a fan of buying the right tool for the job and usually buy better quality ones so that I never have to buy them again. I wonder about the hydraulic crimper vs a mechanical one. Many of these big 4/0 battery lugs are soldered. Another expensive option.
Peter Fleming (prfleming) has been making cables. He might have some good feedback.
300 amp Delco 40si alternator/isolator/cabling upgrade (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=26648.msg214852#msg214852)
The FTZ crimpers are definitely priced for a couple lifetimes.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 07, 2015, 10:33:06 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 07, 2015, 10:33:06 am
Hey Tulsa,
Excellent tools for a shop. They will do the job nicely.
There is a reason everyone in town calls me Jacob Marley. I wrap a little tape around the cable where I want to cut it, place in in a vise (tape is to keep vise marks off the vinyl/rubber) and then use a hack saw to cut it. Only takes few seconds. I then use a razor blade out of the box of 100 I bought from Harbor Freight to cut the cover back. On sale, $3.99/100 so $0.039 each!!!! HF has a good single jack (about $5) to use with the Fastenal on sale crimper if you don't want to solder.
We've been eyeing the fat goose in the pond at the kid's playground. Not too big so we don't have to invite anyone else to dinner and the leftovers will last us days. Bratty kids in our neighborhood are always making noise laughing or something so I can't sleep.
Happy Holidays. Just don't expect any time off.
Pierce
Excellent tools for a shop. They will do the job nicely.
There is a reason everyone in town calls me Jacob Marley. I wrap a little tape around the cable where I want to cut it, place in in a vise (tape is to keep vise marks off the vinyl/rubber) and then use a hack saw to cut it. Only takes few seconds. I then use a razor blade out of the box of 100 I bought from Harbor Freight to cut the cover back. On sale, $3.99/100 so $0.039 each!!!! HF has a good single jack (about $5) to use with the Fastenal on sale crimper if you don't want to solder.
We've been eyeing the fat goose in the pond at the kid's playground. Not too big so we don't have to invite anyone else to dinner and the leftovers will last us days. Bratty kids in our neighborhood are always making noise laughing or something so I can't sleep.
Happy Holidays. Just don't expect any time off.
Pierce
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: rsihnhold on December 07, 2015, 11:54:45 am
Post by: rsihnhold on December 07, 2015, 11:54:45 am
Ratcheting cable cutters are what we used to use to cut everything, now the M12 mini-bandsaw makes much shorter work of everything from 2AWG up to 750 but unless you already own one, I doubt you'd purchase it just for that. Very useful tool though.
I've never used that particular ratcheting cutter and it would give me concern that some of the reviews mention needing to sharpen it. A pair of Channellock or Klein cable cutters (rabbit ears) can be bought at any Home Depot.
Channellock 911 Cable Cutter - Wire Cutters - Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Channellock-911-Cable-Cutter/dp/B00004SBDG/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1449506633&sr=1-1&keywords=channellock+cable+cutter)
It sounds like people have eventually been able to get that hydraulic crimper to create a tight crimp but those crimps look pretty sketchy. You might look to see if there is a place nearby that would be able to rent you a real hydraulic crimper for a few hours. Burndy crimpers and dies will create excellent crimps and are the industry standard. This rental place has locations all over and it appears that they will rent you crimper.
Crimping Tools - Electric Rentals | Sunbelt Rentals (http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/items/1234/crimping-tools-electric/)
I've never used that particular ratcheting cutter and it would give me concern that some of the reviews mention needing to sharpen it. A pair of Channellock or Klein cable cutters (rabbit ears) can be bought at any Home Depot.
Channellock 911 Cable Cutter - Wire Cutters - Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Channellock-911-Cable-Cutter/dp/B00004SBDG/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1449506633&sr=1-1&keywords=channellock+cable+cutter)
It sounds like people have eventually been able to get that hydraulic crimper to create a tight crimp but those crimps look pretty sketchy. You might look to see if there is a place nearby that would be able to rent you a real hydraulic crimper for a few hours. Burndy crimpers and dies will create excellent crimps and are the industry standard. This rental place has locations all over and it appears that they will rent you crimper.
Crimping Tools - Electric Rentals | Sunbelt Rentals (http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/items/1234/crimping-tools-electric/)
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: prfleming on December 07, 2015, 01:21:51 pm
Post by: prfleming on December 07, 2015, 01:21:51 pm
Here is a good discussion of crimp tools, lug types, good and bad crimping.
Making heavy duty cables (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables&page=1)
For me, having a crimper specifically matched to the lugs (FTZ) provides consistent crimps without wondering if the joint is over or under crimped.
Making heavy duty cables (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables&page=1)
For me, having a crimper specifically matched to the lugs (FTZ) provides consistent crimps without wondering if the joint is over or under crimped.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 07, 2015, 09:08:58 pm
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 07, 2015, 09:08:58 pm
Thanks, Peter. This is great. If you are making cables then you have quite an investment in cable, no reason to not use good end terminals and crimping procedure and tools.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: John Haygarth on December 07, 2015, 10:21:36 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on December 07, 2015, 10:21:36 pm
that article pretty much sums up what I see at HFT anytime I have gone there. I have not bought any tools (air or electric) as just looking at them makes me cringe!!
JohnH
JohnH
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 08, 2015, 10:09:36 pm
Post by: TulsaTrent on December 08, 2015, 10:09:36 pm
Forgot the pictures of my new 4/0 welding cable.
The label along the edge of the red cable says:
4/0 ToughFlex Heavy Duty Welding Cable 600V -50oC +105oC Made in U.S.A.
I was totally blown away by how flexible this stuff is. That box is holding a 50' roll in the space of about 12". I have some regular 3/0 cable that I am pretty sure can not roll up that tightly. This welding cable makes it look easy!
Prior to this purchase, I had not even seen the stuff. Hope this helps those who also haven't understand what we are talking about.
Trent
The label along the edge of the red cable says:
4/0 ToughFlex Heavy Duty Welding Cable 600V -50oC +105oC Made in U.S.A.
I was totally blown away by how flexible this stuff is. That box is holding a 50' roll in the space of about 12". I have some regular 3/0 cable that I am pretty sure can not roll up that tightly. This welding cable makes it look easy!
Prior to this purchase, I had not even seen the stuff. Hope this helps those who also haven't understand what we are talking about.
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on January 03, 2016, 05:42:21 pm
Post by: TulsaTrent on January 03, 2016, 05:42:21 pm
I've never used that particular ratcheting cutter and it would give me concern that some of the reviews mention needing to sharpen it. A pair of Channellock or Klein cable cutters (rabbit ears) can be bought at any Home Depot.
I was a little bit concerned because two people mentioned that. Both said that after a little bit of file work, they cut fine, with no problems.
I did go to the local Locke store (Electric/Plumbing/HVAC supplies) to look at the Klein version ($240). Physically, it looked quite similar, with one major difference. The main cutter blade has a sharp edge, just like pruning loppers or bypass pruners. The edge on mine does not go all the way to the edge of the metal. The cutting edge is about 0.005" thick. I assume the filing the reviewers talked about was continuing that slope all the way to a knife edge. I will do a little experimenting with some of my 3/0 scrap before tackling the good 4/0 stuff.
For the price difference, I am very pleased. If the cuts are not good, I will file the edge and try again.
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on January 17, 2016, 01:53:39 pm
Post by: TulsaTrent on January 17, 2016, 01:53:39 pm
Received my battery terminal lugs but my main batch of 3/8" terminal lugs is still in transit on the slow boat from China.
I did receive a 4/0 x 3/8" lug that was billed as a compression fitting. But it was a solder fitting. How do I know? It has "Solder" printed on the side of it . . . and, it has the solder plug already in it! I know a lot of these fittings are rated as compression/solder, but this is not one of those.
However, it did bring up the question: How do soldered fittings compare to compressed fittings? I think I saw somewhere that solder connections were supposed to be "70" better" than crimped connections. Some of the YouTube videos show soldering after compressing, but I have never tried it.
With the solder plug already in the cup, it seems like a simple procedure. Just clamp the lug in the vice, put rosin on the wire (maybe just adding some rosin core solder on the end to "tin" it), and then heat the solder up until it is fully melted and insert the wire end into the mix; keep it together until it hardens. Certainly sounds easy peasy!
How about any of you who have made 4/0 connections sharing your expertise and thoughts with the rest of us? I, for one, would really appreciate it.
Thank you for any advice and information you can share; even constructive criticism is encouraged.
Trent
I did receive a 4/0 x 3/8" lug that was billed as a compression fitting. But it was a solder fitting. How do I know? It has "Solder" printed on the side of it . . . and, it has the solder plug already in it! I know a lot of these fittings are rated as compression/solder, but this is not one of those.
However, it did bring up the question: How do soldered fittings compare to compressed fittings? I think I saw somewhere that solder connections were supposed to be "70" better" than crimped connections. Some of the YouTube videos show soldering after compressing, but I have never tried it.
With the solder plug already in the cup, it seems like a simple procedure. Just clamp the lug in the vice, put rosin on the wire (maybe just adding some rosin core solder on the end to "tin" it), and then heat the solder up until it is fully melted and insert the wire end into the mix; keep it together until it hardens. Certainly sounds easy peasy!
How about any of you who have made 4/0 connections sharing your expertise and thoughts with the rest of us? I, for one, would really appreciate it.
Thank you for any advice and information you can share; even constructive criticism is encouraged.
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: craneman on January 17, 2016, 03:27:07 pm
Post by: craneman on January 17, 2016, 03:27:07 pm
Received my battery terminal lugs but my main batch of 3/8" terminal lugs is still in transit on the slow boat from China.
I did receive a 4/0 x 3/8" lug that was billed as a compression fitting. But it was a solder fitting. How do I know? It has "Solder" printed on the side of it . . . and, it has the solder plug already in it! I know a lot of these fittings are rated as compression/solder, but this is not one of those.
However, it did bring up the question: How do soldered fittings compare to compressed fittings? I think I saw somewhere that solder connections were supposed to be "70" better" than crimped connections. Some of the YouTube videos show soldering after compressing, but I have never tried it.
With the solder plug already in the cup, it seems like a simple procedure. Just clamp the lug in the vice, put rosin on the wire (maybe just adding some rosin core solder on the end to "tin" it), and then heat the solder up until it is fully melted and insert the wire end into the mix; keep it together until it hardens. Certainly sounds easy peasy!
How about any of you who have made 4/0 connections sharing your expertise and thoughts with the rest of us? I, for one, would really appreciate it.
Thank you for any advice and information you can share; even constructive criticism is encouraged.
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Rick & Robyn on January 17, 2016, 04:36:50 pm
Post by: Rick & Robyn on January 17, 2016, 04:36:50 pm
Trent, discussion here might be worth consideration.
Crimp or solder battery terminals? (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,12864.0.html)
Crimp or solder battery terminals? (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,12864.0.html)
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on January 17, 2016, 06:46:53 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on January 17, 2016, 06:46:53 pm
I always solder if I have a choice. None of this special cutter and crimper. Just put a couple of wraps with masking tape or equiv., cut it with a hack saw, use a razor blade or box cutter to cut the insulation back so it will slide into the copper lug. Then slide shrink wrap back down the cable a few inches, use flux and electrical solder to heat and solder the connection. You can use a kitchen stove or propane torch, etc. After it has cooled, slide the shrink wrap down and heat it. You then have a pretty water tight connection with maximum conductivity. Really excellent when there is a possibility of water and chemicals from the road getting into the cable otherwise.
Not going for the talk of the joint heating and then pulling out.
On smaller wires, if you do crimp, make sure not to just compress the fitting but use a crimper that indents one small area so the wire has to make a very tight turn in the connector and if pulled, the wire will fail before sliding out of the connector. In exposed areas, always solder and shrink wrap if possible.
Pierce
Not going for the talk of the joint heating and then pulling out.
On smaller wires, if you do crimp, make sure not to just compress the fitting but use a crimper that indents one small area so the wire has to make a very tight turn in the connector and if pulled, the wire will fail before sliding out of the connector. In exposed areas, always solder and shrink wrap if possible.
Pierce
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: craneman on January 17, 2016, 07:31:31 pm
Post by: craneman on January 17, 2016, 07:31:31 pm
Received my battery terminal lugs but my main batch of 3/8" terminal lugs is still in transit on the slow boat from China.
I did receive a 4/0 x 3/8" lug that was billed as a compression fitting. But it was a solder fitting. How do I know? It has "Solder" printed on the side of it . . . and, it has the solder plug already in it! I know a lot of these fittings are rated as compression/solder, but this is not one of those.
However, it did bring up the question: How do soldered fittings compare to compressed fittings? I think I saw somewhere that solder connections were supposed to be "70" better" than crimped connections. Some of the YouTube videos show soldering after compressing, but I have never tried it.
With the solder plug already in the cup, it seems like a simple procedure. Just clamp the lug in the vice, put rosin on the wire (maybe just adding some rosin core solder on the end to "tin" it), and then heat the solder up until it is fully melted and insert the wire end into the mix; keep it together until it hardens. Certainly sounds easy peasy!
How about any of you who have made 4/0 connections sharing your expertise and thoughts with the rest of us? I, for one, would really appreciate it.
Thank you for any advice and information you can share; even constructive criticism is encouraged.
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: J. D. Stevens on January 17, 2016, 08:12:03 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on January 17, 2016, 08:12:03 pm
f you don't have all of the crimping tools or you haven't priced out HD cable ends yet them chack at Bay Marine Supply. They will make any size or length of cable you want with the ends you need for what looks to be pretty fair prices. And Alan gives 10% off to Forum members and he has a $8.95 flat shipping fee, He will probably sell you bulk cable as well.
The cable is a second "-" to chassis cable for the chassis batteries. The starter spins very well will two 4/0 "+" cables to the starter, two 4/0 "-" cables to chassis, and (at least) two 4/0 "-" cables from starter/engine to chassis.
Getting your cable from Bay Marine Supply appears to be a good option if you only need one or two cables and don't want to build them yourself.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Don & Tys on January 17, 2016, 08:12:32 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on January 17, 2016, 08:12:32 pm
I, on the other hand, prefer crimping these high current connections. I did a test crimp on 4/0 tinned marine cable with a heavy duty power lug and then cut through the barrel of the lug. What I saw convinced me that I had an air tight seal against the elements, as well as a mechanically secure joint between the wire and the lug, and this before adding the heavy duty adhesive infused heat shrink. It does take some practice with even a good tool to gain skill to get the crimp just right. A lot of the marine community feels the same way... here are a couple of links to articles from a marine perspective. I am very confident that my battery and inverter cables are good for the long haul. Bonus, I now have the tools to make any kind of cables I might wish to.
By the way, I bought the tools, cable, and lugs from Bay Marine supply. Alan, the proprietor of Bay Marine, actually let me borrow his tool to make my inverter cables before I did the battery upgrade. Based on that experience, I ordered my own.
Don
Marine Wire and Cable: Crimping vs Soldering Marine Cable and Wire Connectors (http://www.marinewireandcable.com/2013/11/crimping-vs-soldering-marine-cable-and.html)
Making Your Own Battery Cables Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at... (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables)
By the way, I bought the tools, cable, and lugs from Bay Marine supply. Alan, the proprietor of Bay Marine, actually let me borrow his tool to make my inverter cables before I did the battery upgrade. Based on that experience, I ordered my own.
Don
Marine Wire and Cable: Crimping vs Soldering Marine Cable and Wire Connectors (http://www.marinewireandcable.com/2013/11/crimping-vs-soldering-marine-cable-and.html)
Making Your Own Battery Cables Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at... (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables)
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 14, 2016, 11:39:36 pm
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 14, 2016, 11:39:36 pm
Update on my busbar project:
Finally got my 4" x 8" x 1/2" bar cut into two 2" x 8" x 1/2" bars. It ain't pretty, and was a lot more difficult than I imagined. (Kinda reminds me of the $1000 I am saving by installing my AutoMotion shades myself. :-[ ) I started out trying to cut it by hand with a hack saw, but without a vice, I had a hard time holding it in position while I cut; and it was taking forever! Decided to try my sawsall with a wide metal cutting blade. It did okay until I got past the halfway point. I did not have a vise available and was trying to use a Black and Decker Workmate, but it wasn't up to the task.
Eventually started a new cut from the other end, with expected gross job of lining up the two cuts. Cleaned it up a little with an abrasive disk and heavy grit sandpaper. Could have continued and had a smoother finish with a lot more sanding. Decided I had already diminished my return enough. :sleepy:
The important lesson I took away from this exercise is, if I need/want two 2" x 8" x 1/2" copper bars, buy them. Or at least, buy one 2" x 16" so you only have to make one 2" cut. I got a good price on the 4" x 8" x 1/2" piece from eBay, $40 with free shipping (that sucker is heavy), but the aggravation and time to "get 'er done" was too much.
Now I am ready to drill the holes and install the bolts, but I have run into another problem. I bought stainless steel 3/8" bolts, washers, and nuts. And then, I found the following chart on the Blue Sea Website. It shows the conductivity of various metals, compared to copper at 100%:
Conductivity of Metals
Material IACS % Conductivity
Silver 105
Copper 100
Gold 70
Aluminum 61
Nickel 22
Zinc 27
Brass 28
Iron 17
Tin 15
Phosphor Bronze 15
Lead 7
Nickel Aluminum Bronze 7
Steel 3 to 15
If I am reading this chart right, it sounds like my (stainless) steel bolts are the worst things to use to connect wires to the copper bus. I had planned to use the SS washers at the busbar, but it appears that I must have the tinned copper lugs touching as much of the copper plate as possible. I guess I could stack the lugs onto the bolt, next to the copper and use the SS bolts, washers, and nuts as a mechanical device to hold them in position. If I am stacking some terminals on a bolt, would I gain any benefit from placing a copper washer between them?
Or am I just overthinking my project?
I would appreciate any advice and suggestions, especially from those who have been there, done that!
Thanks,
Trent
Finally got my 4" x 8" x 1/2" bar cut into two 2" x 8" x 1/2" bars. It ain't pretty, and was a lot more difficult than I imagined. (Kinda reminds me of the $1000 I am saving by installing my AutoMotion shades myself. :-[ ) I started out trying to cut it by hand with a hack saw, but without a vice, I had a hard time holding it in position while I cut; and it was taking forever! Decided to try my sawsall with a wide metal cutting blade. It did okay until I got past the halfway point. I did not have a vise available and was trying to use a Black and Decker Workmate, but it wasn't up to the task.
Eventually started a new cut from the other end, with expected gross job of lining up the two cuts. Cleaned it up a little with an abrasive disk and heavy grit sandpaper. Could have continued and had a smoother finish with a lot more sanding. Decided I had already diminished my return enough. :sleepy:
The important lesson I took away from this exercise is, if I need/want two 2" x 8" x 1/2" copper bars, buy them. Or at least, buy one 2" x 16" so you only have to make one 2" cut. I got a good price on the 4" x 8" x 1/2" piece from eBay, $40 with free shipping (that sucker is heavy), but the aggravation and time to "get 'er done" was too much.
Now I am ready to drill the holes and install the bolts, but I have run into another problem. I bought stainless steel 3/8" bolts, washers, and nuts. And then, I found the following chart on the Blue Sea Website. It shows the conductivity of various metals, compared to copper at 100%:
Conductivity of Metals
Material IACS % Conductivity
Silver 105
Copper 100
Gold 70
Aluminum 61
Nickel 22
Zinc 27
Brass 28
Iron 17
Tin 15
Phosphor Bronze 15
Lead 7
Nickel Aluminum Bronze 7
Steel 3 to 15
If I am reading this chart right, it sounds like my (stainless) steel bolts are the worst things to use to connect wires to the copper bus. I had planned to use the SS washers at the busbar, but it appears that I must have the tinned copper lugs touching as much of the copper plate as possible. I guess I could stack the lugs onto the bolt, next to the copper and use the SS bolts, washers, and nuts as a mechanical device to hold them in position. If I am stacking some terminals on a bolt, would I gain any benefit from placing a copper washer between them?
Or am I just overthinking my project?
I would appreciate any advice and suggestions, especially from those who have been there, done that!
Thanks,
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: joeszeidel on February 15, 2016, 07:29:35 am
Post by: joeszeidel on February 15, 2016, 07:29:35 am
Trent I am not totally sure on this but I think with copper Bronze bolts, nuts and lockwashers should be used. Is it possible to contact the local power company and ask. Also check with google.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: toyman on February 15, 2016, 09:28:27 am
Post by: toyman on February 15, 2016, 09:28:27 am
So, silver conducts more lectricity out than is put in ?
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 15, 2016, 09:39:39 am
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 15, 2016, 09:39:39 am
So, silver conducts more electricity out than is put in ?
Dave,
No, silver is a better conductor than copper. Which is why busbars in a power plant are silver clad.
Remember, this conductivity chart compares the conductivity of various metals, based on the conductivity of copper, which is rated at 100%.
There were several real surprises to me, such as brass at only 28%. Lead is shown at only 7%; I had always thought the battery cables in a car were lead, which is why it is so easy to spread them to remove from the battery. Must have been an old wife's tale.
Hope this helps,
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 15, 2016, 11:39:00 am
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 15, 2016, 11:39:00 am
I have confirmed that 4' cables will reach from the chassis batteries to the under-bed location for my busbars.
The 4/0 battery terminal lugs came from Zorotools. The 4/0 tinned copper terminals with 3/8" hole came from China on a slow boat (via eBay). The inside diameter for all three is approximately 0.57". The outside diameter for the busbar end is about 0.74"; the wall thickness is 0.09". The OD for the battery end is about 0.84"; the wall thickness is 0.14".
The markings on the "3/8 inch" terminals are "120-10"; the 120 is the nominal size for 4/0 cable, and the 10 is for 10 mm, a tad larger than 3/8". The 120 appears to be the right size crimper die for those terminals, but I am concerned about the battery lugs. Their OD's are clearly 0.10" larger than the smaller lugs. The difference appears to be the wall thickness of the lugs.
I have never tried crimping terminals for a large size wire. It would seem that the larger lug might need the next larger crimper die. Or maybe I just start with the larger size and revert to the 120 size once the crimp has started? Or do I just use the 120 from the git-go, and use my 16 ton hydraulics to accomplish the crimp? I don't know. :help:
Any experienced crimpers out there? Given where I am now, how should I proceed?
Thanks for any helpful feedback,
Trent
The 4/0 battery terminal lugs came from Zorotools. The 4/0 tinned copper terminals with 3/8" hole came from China on a slow boat (via eBay). The inside diameter for all three is approximately 0.57". The outside diameter for the busbar end is about 0.74"; the wall thickness is 0.09". The OD for the battery end is about 0.84"; the wall thickness is 0.14".
The markings on the "3/8 inch" terminals are "120-10"; the 120 is the nominal size for 4/0 cable, and the 10 is for 10 mm, a tad larger than 3/8". The 120 appears to be the right size crimper die for those terminals, but I am concerned about the battery lugs. Their OD's are clearly 0.10" larger than the smaller lugs. The difference appears to be the wall thickness of the lugs.
I have never tried crimping terminals for a large size wire. It would seem that the larger lug might need the next larger crimper die. Or maybe I just start with the larger size and revert to the 120 size once the crimp has started? Or do I just use the 120 from the git-go, and use my 16 ton hydraulics to accomplish the crimp? I don't know. :help:
Any experienced crimpers out there? Given where I am now, how should I proceed?
Thanks for any helpful feedback,
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: rsihnhold on February 15, 2016, 11:45:08 am
Post by: rsihnhold on February 15, 2016, 11:45:08 am
I've crimped thousands of lugs but the problem is that we use much more expensive equipment than what you are using and the lugs and dies are coordinated for each other (lugs color coded and/or stamped with a crimper die number).
You'll end up having to use trial and error if there isn't coordination between the lugs and dies, as far as I can tell.
You'll end up having to use trial and error if there isn't coordination between the lugs and dies, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 15, 2016, 12:18:40 pm
Post by: TulsaTrent on February 15, 2016, 12:18:40 pm
Robert,
Thanks for the feedback.
I can understand the OJT/Trial&Error/SchoolofHardKnocks method of learning. I was smart enough to have bought 20 of the 3/8"/10 mm terminals (about $32), so I have some extra there. I also got seven each of the positive and negative battery lugs (about $6 each), so I have extra there, also. The cost of the 4/0 is not inconsequential, but the cost of education is never totally free.
How would your equipment handle the 0.1" difference in OD for the standard lugs versus the heavy duty lugs, or would they just be two different dies?
Thanks,
Trent
Thanks for the feedback.
I can understand the OJT/Trial&Error/SchoolofHardKnocks method of learning. I was smart enough to have bought 20 of the 3/8"/10 mm terminals (about $32), so I have some extra there. I also got seven each of the positive and negative battery lugs (about $6 each), so I have extra there, also. The cost of the 4/0 is not inconsequential, but the cost of education is never totally free.
How would your equipment handle the 0.1" difference in OD for the standard lugs versus the heavy duty lugs, or would they just be two different dies?
Thanks,
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: rsihnhold on February 15, 2016, 01:11:06 pm
Post by: rsihnhold on February 15, 2016, 01:11:06 pm
It would likely be two different dies. Everything we use for 4/0 and larger wires would probably fall under what you call heavy duty lugs. Things like this:
Blackburn Compression Connectors (http://tnb.com/pub/en/node/350)
http://www.ilsco.com/e2wShoppingCatalog.aspx?parentId=3100012197&parentLink=2100001183:3100012197
Blackburn Compression Connectors (http://tnb.com/pub/en/node/350)
http://www.ilsco.com/e2wShoppingCatalog.aspx?parentId=3100012197&parentLink=2100001183:3100012197
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: craneman on February 15, 2016, 07:26:30 pm
Post by: craneman on February 15, 2016, 07:26:30 pm
Robert,
Thanks for the feedback.
I can understand the OJT/Trial&Error/SchoolofHardKnocks method of learning. I was smart enough to have bought 20 of the 3/8"/10 mm terminals (about $32), so I have some extra there. I also got seven each of the positive and negative battery lugs (about $6 each), so I have extra there, also. The cost of the 4/0 is not inconsequential, but the cost of education is never totally free.
How would your equipment handle the 0.1" difference in OD for the standard lugs versus the heavy duty lugs, or would they just be two different dies?
Thanks,
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: its toby on February 15, 2016, 07:57:29 pm
Post by: its toby on February 15, 2016, 07:57:29 pm
We use those ends at work, we have a hand crimper with rotating dies and 20 inch handles. There is also a crimper available that has a v bottom and an upper die you strike with a hammer that pushes centered in the v to squeeze the lugs. You may be able to find a hand crimper at a local truck repair shop.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Don & Tys on February 15, 2016, 08:34:11 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on February 15, 2016, 08:34:11 pm
I bought the FTZ heavy duty crimper from Bay Marine Supply. I believe he still gives a 10% discount to Foreforum members. You might have to call to get the discount, but Alan (the proprietor) is helpful and great to work with. He also has the FTZ starter lugs, FTZ power lugs (thicker walled and very heavy duty), and FTZ batter terminal clamps for top post batteries. The tool works very well, though it does take some mechanical sense to get the best results. I found the best way to do it was to choose the appropriate gage by rotating the dies, place the lug in the die and squeeze just enough to grip it firmly. Then insert the already stripped cable in the lug and do a partial crimp (enough secure the lug so that it stays where you positioned it), then rotate the lug (or the tool) 90º squeeze the handles until the die bottoms out. Finally, rotate the lug or tool back to the starting point and do a full crimp there. If using the power lugs, I do cycle again, offset from the first run to widen the area of engagement.
Don
FTZ Heavy Duty Lug Crimp Tool (http://baymarinesupply.com/store/electrical/wiring/electrical-tools/ftz-lug-crimp-tool.html)
Don
FTZ Heavy Duty Lug Crimp Tool (http://baymarinesupply.com/store/electrical/wiring/electrical-tools/ftz-lug-crimp-tool.html)
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on February 15, 2016, 10:24:26 pm
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on February 15, 2016, 10:24:26 pm
Don, Another big supporter of Alan at Bay Marine here. He has been very helpful just helping to understand systems, diagnostic processes, what equipment does what and if and when you are ready to buy with that too. Discounts too for Forum members depending on product line, call and ask. And a fixed shipping fee of less than $9. It is rare to find a resource like Alan who will take the time to talk to you, help you learn and remember who you are the nxt time you call back! I usually send him an email with what I need help with and ask when a good time to call would be. He lets me know when he will have time to chat. Good for me and helpful for him.
I recently bought an FTZ crimper from Alan. I was pleased that he threw in a bag of several different sized lugs to cover the trial and error learning curve.
I recently bought an FTZ crimper from Alan. I was pleased that he threw in a bag of several different sized lugs to cover the trial and error learning curve.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on March 05, 2016, 02:56:25 am
Post by: TulsaTrent on March 05, 2016, 02:56:25 am
I have created my six new 4/0 battery cables. All are 4' long, with a battery terminal lug on one end and a 3/8" lug on the other. I made them without wasting any wire or terminals! I used the 120 mm2 dies for the standard 3/8" terminals, and 150 mm2 dies for the heavy duty battery terminal lugs. All went according to plan. I used triple wall adhesive-backed heat shrink for the black cables, and double wall adhesive-backed heat shrink for the red cables.
I have finished drilling the holes for the bolts in the bus bars and prepared the standoffs under the bur bar mounts. Originally, I was planning to use 1" x 3/4" composite blocks on top of the quilted thermal lining in the engine department. Finally decided to go with another composite standoff, which was about 2 3/4" high, giving me plenty of room to get the 5/16" Allen wrench under the bus bars to hold the socket head bolts in place while fastening the nylock nuts onto the cable lugs.
I had planned to tap the holes in the bus bar to better secure my 3/8" bolts. After a few attempts, I gave up. I would turn the tap a little and try to back it off, but it did not cooperate in the 1/2" copper.
Tomorrow I will take pictures and install them.
Trent
I have finished drilling the holes for the bolts in the bus bars and prepared the standoffs under the bur bar mounts. Originally, I was planning to use 1" x 3/4" composite blocks on top of the quilted thermal lining in the engine department. Finally decided to go with another composite standoff, which was about 2 3/4" high, giving me plenty of room to get the 5/16" Allen wrench under the bus bars to hold the socket head bolts in place while fastening the nylock nuts onto the cable lugs.
I had planned to tap the holes in the bus bar to better secure my 3/8" bolts. After a few attempts, I gave up. I would turn the tap a little and try to back it off, but it did not cooperate in the 1/2" copper.
Tomorrow I will take pictures and install them.
Trent
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: John Haygarth on March 05, 2016, 11:43:03 am
Post by: John Haygarth on March 05, 2016, 11:43:03 am
Trent, I had no problem tapping my Bus Bars for the bolts.I guess you did use a taper first and with lubricant??
JohnH
JohnH
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: nitehawk on March 05, 2016, 12:07:30 pm
Post by: nitehawk on March 05, 2016, 12:07:30 pm
Copper does come in different grades of machinability/etc. Possibly you had a tap drill that would yield over 75% of thread. Most tap drill charts specify a tap drill that would yield anywhere from 70% up to 85% of thread. The tap drill manufacturers do like to sell taps, and the tap will break sooner with a higher percentage of thread.
Find the size tap drill that will yield 55% of thread & tapping will be easier.
I no longer have my Bendix Besly tap book or I would have posted the correct size.
Find the size tap drill that will yield 55% of thread & tapping will be easier.
I no longer have my Bendix Besly tap book or I would have posted the correct size.
Title: Re: Battery Cable Upgrade and Pricing
Post by: TulsaTrent on March 07, 2016, 02:24:22 am
Post by: TulsaTrent on March 07, 2016, 02:24:22 am
Final Update for First Phase of Battery Cable Upgrade:
I have now finished my bus bar, new cables, and new engine battery installation. I will explain where I ran into difficulties and how I resolved those problems, along with pictures.
I created six 4' 4/0 cables to go from my new batteries to my new bus bars. These all had battery terminal lugs on one end, and a terminal lug on the other end with a 3/8" hole on the other (actually 10 mm, but who is measuring?). You may recall that when I purchased my two 50' rolls of 4/0 welding wire, the red wire was priced at $198, and the black at $249; I bought two red rolls. In assembling the "black" cables, I started by pulling a 4' piece of heat shrink on the red cable and heated it prior to working with the terminals lugs. I used a mini pipe cutter to cut the insulation off of the cable ends prior to crimping on the terminals.
I used triple wall heavy duty heat shrink for the black lugs, and double wall heavy duty shrink wrap for the red lugs.
I used 3/8" x 16 x 1 1/4" socket head stainless steel bolts and nuts for the bus bar studs. The bus bars were mounted to a double wall composite box frame left over from installing vinyl fencing on my upper deck. This was approximately 2 3/4" high, which mounted the bus bars far enough away from the mounting surface to allow removal of the bolts if I needed to install a longer one. Also, it left plenty of room for the 5/16" Allen wrench to hold the bolt heads for tightening the nylock safety nuts.
The bus bars were 2" x 8" x 1/2" copper (cut from a 4" x 8" bar). My original design concept was to have three bolts/studs on the bottom row of each bar for the three leads from my three new batteries; the other wires/cables to the bus bars could use the two bolts/studs in the top row. And this is how they were initially installed. When I went to add another cable to the top row, I realized my 3/8" lugs were too big to fit on the same side, so I moved two of the battery cables to the underside of the bus bar, which resolved the problem. When I make the bus bars for the coach battery bus bars, I will start with a 6" x 6" x 1/2" bar, which the seller has already agreed to cut them in half for me. ^.^d
The next problem I ran into was from removing the original wiring harness (which was 3/0 wiring; not 4/0) for the two-battery system on my 2000 U295. It looked like the harnesses went to one of two standoff brackets, one positive and one negative. The problem was that the harness did not have a separate cable going to the standoffs, but used a double terminal on the far end of the battery harness. To remove it from the RV, I used a cutter wheel to cut off the battery harness at the junction, which left the other end of the continuing cable attached to the brackets. I then created two 3' cables, each going from the bus bar to the bracket. This was not a problem for the positive bracket, but the ground bracket did not have room to add another lug. I used a through-threaded nut to hold the larger lugs on the ground bracket post and then a 3/8" bolt and nut to add the other wires/cables to the ground bracket post.
The battery cable wires dropped down from the bus bars and were routed to the respective battery terminals. Instead of the angle iron that was placed on top of the two old batteries, I used a 1/2" square tube to hold down the three new batteries. I also wrapped it with 3M splicing tape to avoid any chance of it actually causing a short between battery terminals.
The next phase of this project will be replacing more of the smaller cables with new 4/0 welding cable. At some point, I will get the copper bars to change the coach battery system to bus bar architecture with 4/0 welding cables to replace the smaller cables used originally.
If you have any questions or seek clarification, just ask.
Hope this information helps,
Trent
I have now finished my bus bar, new cables, and new engine battery installation. I will explain where I ran into difficulties and how I resolved those problems, along with pictures.
I created six 4' 4/0 cables to go from my new batteries to my new bus bars. These all had battery terminal lugs on one end, and a terminal lug on the other end with a 3/8" hole on the other (actually 10 mm, but who is measuring?). You may recall that when I purchased my two 50' rolls of 4/0 welding wire, the red wire was priced at $198, and the black at $249; I bought two red rolls. In assembling the "black" cables, I started by pulling a 4' piece of heat shrink on the red cable and heated it prior to working with the terminals lugs. I used a mini pipe cutter to cut the insulation off of the cable ends prior to crimping on the terminals.
I used triple wall heavy duty heat shrink for the black lugs, and double wall heavy duty shrink wrap for the red lugs.
I used 3/8" x 16 x 1 1/4" socket head stainless steel bolts and nuts for the bus bar studs. The bus bars were mounted to a double wall composite box frame left over from installing vinyl fencing on my upper deck. This was approximately 2 3/4" high, which mounted the bus bars far enough away from the mounting surface to allow removal of the bolts if I needed to install a longer one. Also, it left plenty of room for the 5/16" Allen wrench to hold the bolt heads for tightening the nylock safety nuts.
The bus bars were 2" x 8" x 1/2" copper (cut from a 4" x 8" bar). My original design concept was to have three bolts/studs on the bottom row of each bar for the three leads from my three new batteries; the other wires/cables to the bus bars could use the two bolts/studs in the top row. And this is how they were initially installed. When I went to add another cable to the top row, I realized my 3/8" lugs were too big to fit on the same side, so I moved two of the battery cables to the underside of the bus bar, which resolved the problem. When I make the bus bars for the coach battery bus bars, I will start with a 6" x 6" x 1/2" bar, which the seller has already agreed to cut them in half for me. ^.^d
The next problem I ran into was from removing the original wiring harness (which was 3/0 wiring; not 4/0) for the two-battery system on my 2000 U295. It looked like the harnesses went to one of two standoff brackets, one positive and one negative. The problem was that the harness did not have a separate cable going to the standoffs, but used a double terminal on the far end of the battery harness. To remove it from the RV, I used a cutter wheel to cut off the battery harness at the junction, which left the other end of the continuing cable attached to the brackets. I then created two 3' cables, each going from the bus bar to the bracket. This was not a problem for the positive bracket, but the ground bracket did not have room to add another lug. I used a through-threaded nut to hold the larger lugs on the ground bracket post and then a 3/8" bolt and nut to add the other wires/cables to the ground bracket post. The battery cable wires dropped down from the bus bars and were routed to the respective battery terminals. Instead of the angle iron that was placed on top of the two old batteries, I used a 1/2" square tube to hold down the three new batteries. I also wrapped it with 3M splicing tape to avoid any chance of it actually causing a short between battery terminals.
The next phase of this project will be replacing more of the smaller cables with new 4/0 welding cable. At some point, I will get the copper bars to change the coach battery system to bus bar architecture with 4/0 welding cables to replace the smaller cables used originally.
If you have any questions or seek clarification, just ask.
Hope this information helps,
Trent