Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Hans&Marjet on December 08, 2015, 08:27:18 pm
Title: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Hans&Marjet on December 08, 2015, 08:27:18 pm
Jeff..stopped by for a few days for a visit, spend some time going over the coach and install a "third" valve. Great to have 2 U300 here in the back yard. Having a great time.
Hans
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 08, 2015, 08:50:50 pm
Always nice to have help on these projects, and some experience too. The third valve is a nice upgrade
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: FormerU320Family on December 08, 2015, 08:54:07 pm
Would have loved to join you guys, to have three Foretravels in the backyard!
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 08, 2015, 08:57:51 pm
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg221%2Fjyarchin%2Fc9a221c65e35e3f12f09156beb3c2e6c_zpsvnk1oh3e.jpg&hash=41b7b775568a2c3d5dac791d08066fd7" rel="cached" data-hash="41b7b775568a2c3d5dac791d08066fd7" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/jyarchin/c9a221c65e35e3f12f09156beb3c2e6c_zpsvnk1oh3e.jpg)
...and here is my new 3rd valve, all thanks to Hans! It's awesome seeing two classic coaches together. Many, many thanks to Hans and Marjet for the amazing hospitality.
I look forward to more tinkering tomorrow.
Thanks again!
PS. Hans directed me to a gas station along the way....1.94 for deisel!
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Hans&Marjet on December 08, 2015, 08:58:32 pm
Richard maybe we could have a mini mini vention... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 08, 2015, 08:59:41 pm
Would have loved to join you guys, to have three Foretravels in the backyard!
Richard, are you back 'home'? I was thinking of heading home your way, to say hello. (And perhaps,share a cigar) ;D
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: FormerU320Family on December 08, 2015, 09:19:19 pm
The work looks great! Congrats Hans & Jeff. And Hans, thanks for the pointer to the same station Jeff probably used? When Susan & I bought diesel last Saturday it was $1.92.9. Amazing.
Would love to have a mini-vacation soon! We're still in Knoxville at Tennessee RV, but we've had a great visit. Nice people, as they always have been here. And we've gotten several things done that are important to us — not mechanical, not essential, but just upgrades and/or changes that we've wanted.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Miz Dani on December 08, 2015, 10:08:18 pm
Dang, if I'd known there was another unofficial last-minute mini-un-rally even remotely possible, I'd have headed a whole lot further north today instead of back to storage! (left Lazy Days at 11am, storage was only 5 miles away but I wished I could just keep goin'.....already planning/packing for my next trip.....January).
Jeff, congratulations on getting that 3rd valve, you'll love it....Hans, you're a super star, (fixed my mirrors!)....& too bad the cigar date didn't work out, I know Susan would have loved that!!! >:D
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Dub on December 09, 2015, 09:47:20 am
Either coach makes a nice picture..the 2 togeother even better.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: GKCigar on December 09, 2015, 12:31:33 pm
I love seeing these kinds of pictures on the forum. That's what makes this forum so great!
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: barndog on December 15, 2015, 06:09:57 pm
What is the purpose of the third valve?
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Dave Cobb on December 15, 2015, 07:38:46 pm
It allows you to close the new third valve, and then use the grey water to get free back flush of the black tank. I can do it a number of times before there is little grey left to dump. Also, if ever the black or grey valve were to fail or leak, you still can shut off the third and continue your trip.
I carry a removable third valve, and have options now.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 15, 2015, 07:40:13 pm
It serves a couple of purposes. It is an added safety in case the grey or black water valves get stuck and can't be closed.
The main function is that you after you dump the black tank, you use the grey water to flush the black tank.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Kent Speers on December 15, 2015, 09:06:44 pm
The third valve is one of the best alterations I have done to our coach. It makes dumping the tanks much easier, faster and cleaner.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 15, 2015, 09:19:43 pm
What Kent says!
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Ted & Karen on December 15, 2015, 09:28:31 pm
I agree- 3rd valve is super..................... ^.^d
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Miz Dani on December 15, 2015, 10:28:27 pm
It makes dumping the tanks much easier, faster and cleaner.
It makes the job of dumping the tanks a much more 'positive' experience all the way around. :)) A big "plus" is the you'll never have an ugly "surprise" again....I was lucky enough to get the 3rd valve in (thanks Gary O!) before I ever had to do the lovely chore...
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: oldgrayrider on December 16, 2015, 10:03:40 am
>>...and here is my new 3rd valve<<
Any details on the install (part numbers, etc)? Is this the "Foretravel size" or standard size?
Thanks David
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 17, 2015, 11:49:54 am
Amazon.com: Valterra T1023 90° Clearview Adapter: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006MRQRM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00) Amazon.com: Valterra Products, Inc. T1020 3" Black Termination Cap with... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006N5RW2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00) Amazon.com: Valterra T1009 3" Bayonet Flange: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006MRRHQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00) Amazon.com: Valterra T1003VPM Bladex 3" Waste Valve Body with Metal Handle:... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BGK22E?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s01) Amazon.com: Valterra T1005 3" Slip Hub Flange: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006MRR9O?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s01)
Jeff../ David
The clear elbow should be a 45 degree...as we noted on your coach the 90 degree not allow a hookup at that angle.
Hans
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: FormerU320Family on December 17, 2015, 01:44:29 pm
Just a question — because Susan & I thought hard about installing a third valve (might still).
It seems that in the Foretravel community, ranging from the previous owner of our coach to most (all?) on the Forum, the idea of flushing the black tank with gray water via a third valve closing the output, but connecting the two tanks, seems encouraged. We're new and we aren't smart — well, not about coaches anyway. But the concept of flushing the black with the gray raises questions.
Why don't coach manufacturer's just install one big tank for black and gray, if the larger volume of gray is going to be used to dilute and flush the black?
Is anyone concerned about introducing microorganisms into their gray tank, as a result of it no longer being isolated from the black?
What treatments, if any, are you using in the gray tank after basically connecting it to the black?
Dirty topic (pardon the pun). And I know Susan & I must be on the wrong side of this discussion, because I haven't seen anyone with the same concerns. But after buying the parts to do the conversion to a third valve, we backed-off. Our current approach is to empty the black tank, then dump two 5-gallon buckets of fresh water directly into the toilet to dislodge any remaining, umm, errr, "solids" and paper. Inconvenient, but seems to work.
Finally, as a related question, while sitting beside the utility bay watching "the byproducts of our banquets" (is that a more delicate way to say "solids"?) flow through the clear elbow connected to our coach's dump pipe, I've wondered how the black tank is shaped? Seems to me the initial design of black tank shapes might help with full expulsion of "solids" and maintenance of clean tanks? What are our tanks shaped like? We've even watched the YouTube videos of a guy who made a transparent tank, then introduced simulated solids, then tried all the usual solutions (including ice cubes in the tank while driving). We're still in the dark.
Apologies for seeming dense on this, but we're truly interested in any feedback on the the questions asked. Everyone we know and respect is doing a third valve, so we must be missing the point. Thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Hans&Marjet on December 17, 2015, 01:55:20 pm
Richard ...The primary reason for the third valve is to be a backup should either the gray or black tank valve(s) fail. It also adds the ability to back flush using the gray tanks content. You can still continue your current method and never back flush with the gray.
MHO
Hans
:)
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Ric & Leslie on December 17, 2015, 01:57:05 pm
Hi All - Happy Holidays Any chance someone could do a write up on the 'THIRD VALVE" installation? How are you plumbing the grey water into the black water tank? Thought about it the first time I dumped the tanks. Admittedly I haven't had a chance to look into it yet. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers - Ric :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: oldgrayrider on December 17, 2015, 02:17:18 pm
Jeff/Hans,
Thanks for details. I am now using a similar Valterra twist-on but it required an adapter to fit the Foretravel plumbing stub - not ideal with all the potential leak points. Is the stub different on your coach?
Thanks David
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on December 17, 2015, 02:20:34 pm
I'm not sure if this OE or not, but it's a huge pain to open and close the valves. Not a fan of Valterra either, they don't last long and finally stick. As to the questions, we've done "the drain" both ways: draining black & using grey for the flush and leaving the grey open and hitting the black before we do dishes or shower. Both ways have worked fine. We don't throw tp into the black, a little sack works for us. Now? When sitting on the hook, we leave both valves open all the time. ^.^d
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 17, 2015, 02:30:54 pm
Mike, your black tank will get cleaner if you don't leave the valves open when connected. Wait until it gets full, or at least until you are ready to un-dock and head out.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Carol Savournin on December 17, 2015, 02:32:23 pm
Well ... FWIW, here are my thoughts. It is my understanding that in many new coaches, there IS just one big tank for all waste water. If I am wrong, someone please correct me. Separate tanks may have made more sense "back in the day", when many areas allowed grey water to be "dribbled" onto the ground over time, instead of just dumped into a sewage system. There were even "sprinkler" heads for the ends of hoses, I believe. Microorganisms are ESSENTIAL for breaking down solids, and are what are introduced into septic systems to keep them from clogging up. If you are afraid of rampant proliferation of harmful eColi or staph bacteria in your tanks if they are allowed to commingle, I want to gently suggest that there are many more urgent things to worry about. I do NOT use ANY kind of chemicals in my black or grey tanks. We dump the black, close the third valve, open the grey and let it find it's way to the opening of the black tank. Close the grey and open the third valve and watch what comes out through the clear elbow. Repeat. When the black looks pretty clear, we close that one and finish dumping the grey. Occasionally we use the tank washer for our black tank, but it is almost always anticlimactic. The Third Valve process works well. I use Dawn detergent for dishes and make my own All Purpose Cleaner with water, white vinegar, a bit of Dawn and a touch of alcohol. For my tanks, after dumping I pour in a generous slug of plain, old white vinegar. We have no odor. In hot weather I may add some extra vinegar for good measure. Clorox kills the "bugs" that will break things down and is also harmful to septic systems in many campgrounds that rely on enzymatic additives to keep their systems working well. If you REALLY want to add something to your tank, try some liquid enzyme ... a capful is more than sufficient for a black tank or grey (which can be stinkier than the black!!).
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on December 17, 2015, 02:41:48 pm
Mike, your black tank will get cleaner if you don't leave the valves open when connected. Wait until it gets full, or at least until you are ready to un-dock and head out.
That's an old saw: it makes sense, but it seems to work well either way, IMHO & experience. :)
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 17, 2015, 02:42:46 pm
Here is my write up on the third valve installation. Search for "third valve"
Recent third dump valve installations (split from another topic) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=25056.msg197677#msg197677)
Richard, i asked the same questions about mixing tank stuff. In the newer coaches they have a unified holding tank for everything. Not that that makes you feel any better but that is how it is done in homes with septic systems. Gray water and black water drain lines are separate until they get to the main lines going to the holding tank(s).
With a third valve you gain a redundancy in containment as has been mentioned. We connect to the third valve (we can use a 45° fitting and close the bay door, not every configuration has room for that.) open the third valve, open the black valve, go with the flow. When flow is done, close the third valve, leave black valve open, open gray valve for about 5 seconds, close gray valve, open third valve and let that flow out. Repeat three or four times. The black tank outflow will be just gray water. Close the black valve, open the gray valve and let the gray tank finish emptying.
If you have the see through plastic fitting you will see what is going on. Not a pretty picture but useful
The gray water tank should be largely full when you start flushing water from it into the empty black water tank. Gravity and water pressure make this a one way event.
The third valve is working well for us.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on December 17, 2015, 02:51:29 pm
Mike, your black tank will get cleaner if you don't leave the valves open when connected. Wait until it gets full, or at least until you are ready to un-dock and head out.
We found by doing that method trashed the sensors in the tanks. On the FT, they're trashed because the PO followed that advice. Just sayin'
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Hans&Marjet on December 17, 2015, 04:18:20 pm
Thanks for details. I am now using a similar Valterra twist-on but it required an adapter to fit the Foretravel plumbing stub - not ideal with all the potential leak points. Is the stub different on your coach?
Thanks David
David...When I did the install on my coach and Jeff's I cut the old Thetford flange off then measured where I needed to be and recut to that point. I wanted to be able to close the door on our coach with the line attached. On Jeff's coach the cut was abit generous since he runs his power cord outside the door closure (not sure I relayed that correctly). PM me if you need more info or just to chat FT stuff. :) Hans
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Ric & Leslie on December 17, 2015, 05:01:53 pm
Hi Roger Thank You for the redirect to your write up. VERY well done, Sir. Now I can see how it's done. b^.^d Ric
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: craneman on December 17, 2015, 05:19:55 pm
Here is my write up on the third valve installation. Search for "third valve"
Recent third dump valve installations (split from another topic) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=25056.msg197677#msg197677)
Richard, i asked the same questions about mixing tank stuff. In the newer coaches they have a unified holding tank for everything. Not that that makes you feel any better but that is how it is done in homes with septic systems. Gray water and black water drain lines are separate until they get to the main lines going to the holding tank(s).
With a third valve you gain a redundancy in containment as has been mentioned. We connect to the third valve (we can use a 45° fitting and close the bay door, not every configuration has room for that.) open the third valve, open the black valve, go with the flow. When flow is done, close the third valve, leave black valve open, open gray valve for about 5 seconds, close gray valve, open third valve and let that flow out. Repeat three or four times. The black tank outflow will be just gray water. Close the black valve, open the gray valve and let the gray tank finish emptying.
If you have the see through plastic fitting you will see what is going on. Not a pretty picture but useful
The gray water tank should be largely full when you start flushing water from it into the empty black water tank. Gravity and water pressure make this a one way event.
The third valve is working well for us.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: craneman on December 17, 2015, 05:21:12 pm
Did your coach come with the electric valves originally? Mine is a 1999 U320 and I thought it would be the same as your dump setup.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 17, 2015, 06:37:45 pm
Thank you Roger. It was Don's linked thread that inspired me to spend a few coach bucks in my basement. His is just amazing.
"Did your coach come with the electric valves originally? Mine is a 1999 U320 and I thought it would be the same as your dump setup
craneman, not sure if you mean me, but mine are manual.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 17, 2015, 06:42:09 pm
We found by doing that method trashed the sensors in the tanks. On the FT, they're trashed because the PO followed that advice. Just sayin'
Ahh, I get it. Our coach didn't have tank gauges when we bought it. The PO was in the middle of a project and didn't get it finished. He had added a back-up/side camera's and put a new color monitor in. The Javalina was missing. Rather than try to find a replacement we put SeeLevel gauges in.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: craneman on December 17, 2015, 06:45:57 pm
I guess the quote didn't go through, I was referring to Rogers post as his coach is the same as mine just 2 years newer. I looked in my wet bay and don't think I have enough room below the outlet to get the valve between the abs and the floor.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 17, 2015, 07:59:48 pm
Craneman, When you get it all the covers off and all that is there is the plumbing it is fairly flexible. I took careful measurements of where the third valve had to go to fit correctly and allow a 45° fitting to fit (they are not all the same, the Valterra 45° fir the Camco one did not). Then I took the old valves apart to get the outer part of the plumbing out, cut it off, reinstalled it with the new valve bodies. Ot the end where the third valve glues on I put a 1/2" block under the 3" pipe. Plenty of flex for that to happen and then glued on the third valve. With the original fiberglass cover in place it may have been preventing the pipe from moving upward.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: craneman on December 17, 2015, 08:14:16 pm
Thanks Roger, I will add that to the do list on the FT.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Caflashbob on December 17, 2015, 11:46:32 pm
Thanks for details. I am now using a similar Valterra twist-on but it required an adapter to fit the Foretravel plumbing stub - not ideal with all the potential leak points. Is the stub different on your coach?
Thanks David
I cut off the end of the pipe and permanently installed the valterra end and cap
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: car54 on December 18, 2015, 11:25:30 am
Most newer rvs do have only one waste tank combined black/grey. When boondocking at music festivals I always fill up the grey before black and use my third valve to allow me to cascade the grey into the black tank for additional storage before moving to dump. These places have a fresh hookup but no sewer connection. It really helps with "shower anxiety" for the girls.
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: oldgrayrider on December 18, 2015, 11:58:00 am
Bob,
Did you install a twist on type cap (glue to coach end, twist-on to the hose end)?
Title: Re: Doin some work today on Jeff's coach
Post by: Caflashbob on December 18, 2015, 12:10:12 pm